All Things Russia & Ukraine

[old salt]

The Hungary situation is an interesting complication.
Am wondering whether they will be able, or want, to stay in NATO?

https://washington.mfa.gov.hu/eng/news/ ... -accession

Interesting, this, of course, is the position of Victor Orban.
Claiming "shared values" deficit, from Orban, is quite rich.

But it was a semi-viable excuse, however the issue is quite different today, given the Russian war crimes.

Wanting a law about languages to be moderated is no excuse for supporting Putin in this environment.

...not to you. To the Russian people, it is a valid excuse.

[DocBarrister]

The Hungary situation is an interesting complication.
Am wondering whether they will be able, or want, to stay in NATO?

https://washington.mfa.gov.hu/eng/news/ ... -accession

Interesting, this, of course, is the position of Victor Orban.
Claiming "shared values" deficit, from Orban, is quite rich.

But it was a semi-viable excuse, however the issue is quite different today, given the Russian war crimes.

Wanting a law about languages to be moderated is no excuse for supporting Putin in this environment.

...not to you. To the Russian people, it is a valid excuse.

Who cares what the Russian people think? Their troops are perpetrating war crimes against the Ukrainians.

DocBarrister

[Kismet]

The Hungary situation is an interesting complication.
Am wondering whether they will be able, or want, to stay in NATO?

https://washington.mfa.gov.hu/eng/news/ ... -accession

Interesting, this, of course, is the position of Victor Orban.
Claiming "shared values" deficit, from Orban, is quite rich.

But it was a semi-viable excuse, however the issue is quite different today, given the Russian war crimes.

Wanting a law about languages to be moderated is no excuse for supporting Putin in this environment.

...not to you. To the Russian people, it is a valid excuse.

So Putin's ends justify the means both for him and his people?

This is how Hitler and the Nazis operated and "their people" went along just for the ride.....I expect you were not fine with that so what's the difference here?

[old salt]

The Hungary situation is an interesting complication.
Am wondering whether they will be able, or want, to stay in NATO?

https://washington.mfa.gov.hu/eng/news/ ... -accession

Interesting, this, of course, is the position of Victor Orban.
Claiming "shared values" deficit, from Orban, is quite rich.

But it was a semi-viable excuse, however the issue is quite different today, given the Russian war crimes.

Wanting a law about languages to be moderated is no excuse for supporting Putin in this environment.

...not to you. To the Russian people, it is a valid excuse.

So Putin's ends justify the means both for him and his people?

This is how Hitler and the Nazis operated and "their people" went along just for the ride.....I expect you were not fine with that so what's the difference here?

Who said there is a difference ? It's a reality check.
The happy talk about Putin losing domestic support should be questioned.

[old salt]

The Hungary situation is an interesting complication.
Am wondering whether they will be able, or want, to stay in NATO?

https://washington.mfa.gov.hu/eng/news/ ... -accession

Interesting, this, of course, is the position of Victor Orban.
Claiming "shared values" deficit, from Orban, is quite rich.

But it was a semi-viable excuse, however the issue is quite different today, given the Russian war crimes.

Wanting a law about languages to be moderated is no excuse for supporting Putin in this environment.

...not to you. To the Russian people, it is a valid excuse.

Who cares what the Russian people think? Their troops are perpetrating war crimes against the Ukrainians.

DocBarrister

The people trying to figure out what Putin will do next & how long he will persist.

[old salt]

Details on the Czech tanks & armored personnel carriers on the way to Ukraine.

Also an enticing tid bit about the Soviet legacy stuff held by EU member Cyprus which could be a game changer. Rather than the US picking up the tab, it's past time for Germany & the rest of the EU to fund a Lend Lease for transfer of their members stocks of armaments to future EU member Ukraine.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... to-ukraine

There are unconfirmed reports that the U.S. government may be in talks with officials in Cyprus about transferring various Russian-made systems the country has to Ukraine. This could include S-300 and Tor-M1 surface-to-air missile systems, T-80U tanks, BMP-3 infantry fight vehicles, and Mi-35 Hind attack helicopters. If such a deal is in the works, it would reflect a major shift in policy on the part of Cyprus, which is a European Union (EU) member, but has long had close ties to Russia. EU-wide sanctions against Russia over the war in Ukraine have already caused the government in Cyprus to begin reexamining that relationship.

https://knews.kathimerini.com.cy/en/new ... to-ukraine

[DocBarrister]

The Hungary situation is an interesting complication.
Am wondering whether they will be able, or want, to stay in NATO?

https://washington.mfa.gov.hu/eng/news/ ... -accession

Interesting, this, of course, is the position of Victor Orban.
Claiming "shared values" deficit, from Orban, is quite rich.

But it was a semi-viable excuse, however the issue is quite different today, given the Russian war crimes.

Wanting a law about languages to be moderated is no excuse for supporting Putin in this environment.

...not to you. To the Russian people, it is a valid excuse.

Who cares what the Russian people think? Their troops are perpetrating war crimes against the Ukrainians.

DocBarrister

The people trying to figure out what Putin will do next & how long he will persist.

Putin is a fascist dictator. He also doesn’t care what the Russian people think.

DocBarrister

[old salt]

The Hungary situation is an interesting complication.
Am wondering whether they will be able, or want, to stay in NATO?

https://washington.mfa.gov.hu/eng/news/ ... -accession

Interesting, this, of course, is the position of Victor Orban.
Claiming "shared values" deficit, from Orban, is quite rich.

But it was a semi-viable excuse, however the issue is quite different today, given the Russian war crimes.

Wanting a law about languages to be moderated is no excuse for supporting Putin in this environment.

...not to you. To the Russian people, it is a valid excuse.

Who cares what the Russian people think? Their troops are perpetrating war crimes against the Ukrainians.

DocBarrister

The people trying to figure out what Putin will do next & how long he will persist.

Putin is a fascist dictator. He also doesn’t care what the Russian people think.

DocBarrister

There is a reason that Putin makes so many references back to NATO imposing a no fly zone over Libya.

[Typical Lax Dad]

The Hungary situation is an interesting complication.
Am wondering whether they will be able, or want, to stay in NATO?

https://washington.mfa.gov.hu/eng/news/ ... -accession

Interesting, this, of course, is the position of Victor Orban.
Claiming "shared values" deficit, from Orban, is quite rich.

But it was a semi-viable excuse, however the issue is quite different today, given the Russian war crimes.

Wanting a law about languages to be moderated is no excuse for supporting Putin in this environment.

...not to you. To the Russian people, it is a valid excuse.

Who cares what the Russian people think? Their troops are perpetrating war crimes against the Ukrainians.

DocBarrister

The people trying to figure out what Putin will do next & how long he will persist.

Putin is a fascist dictator. He also doesn’t care what the Russian people think.

DocBarrister

There is a reason that Putin makes so many references back to NATO imposing a no fly zone over Libya.

[old salt]

The Hungary situation is an interesting complication.
Am wondering whether they will be able, or want, to stay in NATO?

https://washington.mfa.gov.hu/eng/news/ ... -accession

Interesting, this, of course, is the position of Victor Orban.
Claiming "shared values" deficit, from Orban, is quite rich.

But it was a semi-viable excuse, however the issue is quite different today, given the Russian war crimes.

Wanting a law about languages to be moderated is no excuse for supporting Putin in this environment.

...not to you. To the Russian people, it is a valid excuse.

Who cares what the Russian people think? Their troops are perpetrating war crimes against the Ukrainians.

DocBarrister

The people trying to figure out what Putin will do next & how long he will persist.

Putin is a fascist dictator. He also doesn’t care what the Russian people think.

DocBarrister

There is a reason that Putin makes so many references back to NATO imposing a no fly zone over Libya.

TDS troll.

[old salt]

Useful comparison of Russian S-400 with US Patriot & THAAD.

https://www.defenseworld.net/2018/08/16 ... thaad.html

[Typical Lax Dad]

The Hungary situation is an interesting complication.
Am wondering whether they will be able, or want, to stay in NATO?

https://washington.mfa.gov.hu/eng/news/ ... -accession

Interesting, this, of course, is the position of Victor Orban.
Claiming "shared values" deficit, from Orban, is quite rich.

But it was a semi-viable excuse, however the issue is quite different today, given the Russian war crimes.

Wanting a law about languages to be moderated is no excuse for supporting Putin in this environment.

...not to you. To the Russian people, it is a valid excuse.

Who cares what the Russian people think? Their troops are perpetrating war crimes against the Ukrainians.

DocBarrister

The people trying to figure out what Putin will do next & how long he will persist.

Putin is a fascist dictator. He also doesn’t care what the Russian people think.

DocBarrister

There is a reason that Putin makes so many references back to NATO imposing a no fly zone over Libya.

TDS troll.

[old salt]

Time for NATO to test Turkey & declare intentions to send warships into the Black Sea for port visits in Romania & Bulgaria.
(with NATO jets on alert or airborne in Romanian & Bulgarian airspace)

https://www.thebulwark.com/why-nato-can ... ve-odessa/

[NattyBohChamps04]

Useful comparison of Russian S-400 with US Patriot & THAAD.

https://www.defenseworld.net/2018/08/16 ... thaad.html

Russia has A LOT of anti-air systems. You've been correct that most semi-modern aircraft won't be effective, from various MiGs to A10s. The answer is massively expensive planes, or a ton of inexpensive drones to guide inexpensive rockets against the current Russian systems. Cheap drones that look huge to radar are also easy to build.

We're in a meta-game now. If you're on the defensive for a few months, like Russia is, you're gonna lose.

[old salt]

Useful comparison of Russian S-400 with US Patriot & THAAD.

https://www.defenseworld.net/2018/08/16 ... thaad.html

Russia has A LOT of anti-air systems. You've been correct that most semi-modern aircraft won't be effective, from various MiGs to A10s. The answer is massively expensive planes, or a ton of inexpensive drones to guide inexpensive rockets against the current Russian systems. Cheap drones that look huge to radar are also easy to build.

We're in a meta-game now. If you're on the defensive for a few months, like Russia is, you're gonna lose.

How many S-400's does Russia have & how many are still being built.
https://www.quora.com/How-many-S-400-sy ... eing-built
Thierry Etienne Joseph Rotty, Senior Controller at NATO. Answered Dec 16, 2019

Russia currently fields 29 regiments equipped with the S-400 system, each regiment has three battalions

Each battalion consists of a command truck, a panoramic radar truck, a technical support truck, 12 launchers [4 missiles each], and 6 multipurpose radars.

Each regiment has additional support units and often additional high-altitude radars, passive radar detection to identify stealth aircraft, and en electronic warfare system to prevent enemy missiles from locking on.

At the divisional level, the older S-300 systems can be patched in as well.

So, we are talking about 29 regiments, 87 battalions, 522 launchers, and 2,088 missiles.

The present production estimate for 2020 is 56 battalions.

Russia can ring Ukraine on 3 sides with S-400 batteries. If we take one out, they can roll in a replacement.
It is hard to imagine a more daunting air defense environment. No surprise -- it is, after all, Russia's underbelly.
They can base their strike aircraft inside Russia & use long range standoff weapons & cruise or ballistic missiles.

[MDlaxfan76]

The Hungary situation is an interesting complication.
Am wondering whether they will be able, or want, to stay in NATO?

https://washington.mfa.gov.hu/eng/news/ ... -accession

Interesting, this, of course, is the position of Victor Orban.
Claiming "shared values" deficit, from Orban, is quite rich.

But it was a semi-viable excuse, however the issue is quite different today, given the Russian war crimes.

Wanting a law about languages to be moderated is no excuse for supporting Putin in this environment.

...not to you. To the Russian people, it is a valid excuse.

Sure, in a totalitarian society with propaganda as the sole source of information.

[NattyBohChamps04]

Russia has A LOT of anti-air systems. You've been correct that most semi-modern aircraft won't be effective, from various MiGs to A10s. The answer is massively expensive planes, or a ton of inexpensive drones to guide inexpensive rockets against the current Russian systems. Cheap drones that look huge to radar are also easy to build.

We're in a meta-game now. If you're on the defensive for a few months, like Russia is, you're gonna lose.

How many S-400's does Russia have & how many are still being built.
https://www.quora.com/How-many-S-400-sy ... eing-built
Thierry Etienne Joseph Rotty, Senior Controller at NATO. Answered Dec 16, 2019

Russia currently fields 29 regiments equipped with the S-400 system, each regiment has three battalions

Each battalion consists of a command truck, a panoramic radar truck, a technical support truck, 12 launchers [4 missiles each], and 6 multipurpose radars.

Each regiment has additional support units and often additional high-altitude radars, passive radar detection to identify stealth aircraft, and en electronic warfare system to prevent enemy missiles from locking on.

At the divisional level, the older S-300 systems can be patched in as well.

So, we are talking about 29 regiments, 87 battalions, 522 launchers, and 2,088 missiles.

The present production estimate for 2020 is 56 battalions.

Russia can ring Ukraine on 3 sides with S-400 batteries. If we take one out, they can roll in a replacement.
It is hard to imagine a more daunting air defense environment. No surprise -- it is, after all, Russia's underbelly.
They can base their strike aircraft inside Russia & use long range standoff weapons & cruise or ballistic missiles.

You didn't listen to a single thing I said. Yes, we know they have a lot of anti-air systems. That's why very few air engagements are going on from our side. And very few anti-air systems are being built right now because of, well, you know. And Russia has a ton of land area to defend. You're thinking old school.

Its not about taking out the S-400 batteries. You've already lost the meta game if you're talking about taking them out. The response is a cheap and un-manned wild weasel exercise.

Anti-air is expensive. You get an inexpensive drone taken out by a missile 10x-100x the cost, rinse and repeat.

Our cyber capabilities have been amazing with gladly little fanfare. We bled them dry when it mattered then. We are bleeding them dry when it matters now again across many avenues again today. I'm supremely proud of America's accomplishments and our allies accomplishments in this. And most importantly, Ukraine's sacrifice. It will not be for nothing.

[old salt]

Useful comparison of Russian S-400 with US Patriot & THAAD.

https://www.defenseworld.net/2018/08/16 ... thaad.html

Russia has A LOT of anti-air systems. You've been correct that most semi-modern aircraft won't be effective, from various MiGs to A10s. The answer is massively expensive planes, or a ton of inexpensive drones to guide inexpensive rockets against the current Russian systems. Cheap drones that look huge to radar are also easy to build.

We're in a meta-game now. If you're on the defensive for a few months, like Russia is, you're gonna lose.

How many S-400's does Russia have & how many are still being built ?
https://www.quora.com/How-many-S-400-sy ... eing-built
Thierry Etienne Joseph Rotty, Senior Controller at NATO. Answered Dec 16, 2019

Russia currently fields 29 regiments equipped with the S-400 system, each regiment has three battalions

Each battalion consists of a command truck, a panoramic radar truck, a technical support truck, 12 launchers [4 missiles each], and 6 multipurpose radars.

Each regiment has additional support units and often additional high-altitude radars, passive radar detection to identify stealth aircraft, and en electronic warfare system to prevent enemy missiles from locking on.

At the divisional level, the older S-300 systems can be patched in as well.

So, we are talking about 29 regiments, 87 battalions, 522 launchers, and 2,088 missiles.

The present production estimate for 2020 is 56 battalions.

Russia can ring Ukraine on 3 sides with S-400 batteries. If we take one out, they can roll in a replacement.
It is hard to imagine a more daunting air defense environment. No surprise -- it is, after all, Russia's underbelly.
They can base their strike aircraft inside Russia & use long range standoff weapons & cruise or ballistic missiles.

Mi-24 Hind assault helos, like the ones used in the cross-border strike on the oil depot, are probably the most effective close air support aircraft in that environment. They're vulnerable to AAA & manpads. They repeatedly play the video clip of a Russian Hind being hit & crashing in a fireball in a farmers field. Don't know how many have been lost & how many helo pilots are left, but some of our E NATO allies have Hinds.

[old salt]

Russia has A LOT of anti-air systems. You've been correct that most semi-modern aircraft won't be effective, from various MiGs to A10s. The answer is massively expensive planes, or a ton of inexpensive drones to guide inexpensive rockets against the current Russian systems. Cheap drones that look huge to radar are also easy to build.

We're in a meta-game now. If you're on the defensive for a few months, like Russia is, you're gonna lose.

How many S-400's does Russia have & how many are still being built.
https://www.quora.com/How-many-S-400-sy ... eing-built
Thierry Etienne Joseph Rotty, Senior Controller at NATO. Answered Dec 16, 2019

Russia currently fields 29 regiments equipped with the S-400 system, each regiment has three battalions

Each battalion consists of a command truck, a panoramic radar truck, a technical support truck, 12 launchers [4 missiles each], and 6 multipurpose radars.

Each regiment has additional support units and often additional high-altitude radars, passive radar detection to identify stealth aircraft, and en electronic warfare system to prevent enemy missiles from locking on.

At the divisional level, the older S-300 systems can be patched in as well.

So, we are talking about 29 regiments, 87 battalions, 522 launchers, and 2,088 missiles.

The present production estimate for 2020 is 56 battalions.

Russia can ring Ukraine on 3 sides with S-400 batteries. If we take one out, they can roll in a replacement.
It is hard to imagine a more daunting air defense environment. No surprise -- it is, after all, Russia's underbelly.
They can base their strike aircraft inside Russia & use long range standoff weapons & cruise or ballistic missiles.

You didn't listen to a single thing I said. Yes, we know they have a lot of anti-air systems. That's why very few air engagements are going on from our side. And very few anti-air systems are being built right now because of, well, you know. And Russia has a ton of land area to defend. You're thinking old school.

Its not about taking out the S-400 batteries. You've already lost the meta game if you're talking about taking them out. The response is a cheap and un-manned wild weasel exercise.

Anti-air is expensive. You get an inexpensive drone taken out by a missile 10x-100x the cost, rinse and repeat.

Our cyber capabilities have been amazing with gladly little fanfare. We bled them dry when it mattered. We are bleeding them dry again across many avenues again today.

Calm down. I read your entire post.
I was not arguing with you (although I don't know the practicality of your idea).
Russia has a lot of territory but they don't need to defend it all. Right now, they just need to control Ukraine's airspace. They can bring in as many mobile S-400's as they need from around the country to ring Ukraine. We don't have a bunch of low cost drones to give Ukraine to use as clay pigeons to get Russia to expend all their S-400 rounds.

[NattyBohChamps04]

Calm down. I read your entire post.
I was not arguing with you (although I don't know the practicality of your idea).
Russia has a lot of territory but they don't need to defend it all. Right now, they just need to control Ukraine's airspace. They can bring in as many mobile S-400's as they need from around the country to ring Ukraine. We don't have a bunch of low cost drones to give Ukraine to use as clay pigeons to get Russia to expend all their S-400 rounds.

That's the fun part. They do have to defend it all.

Finland, Estonia, Lativa, Königsberg, Lithuania, Moldova, Georgia, Armenia, Turkey, Syria, the Stans, Mongolia, China, Japan, USA, Canada, and, well, anyone who wants to test things via the Arctic.

Drones are cheap and fast to produce, everything on up from cheap chinese crap to multi-million (& more) fun stuff is in the air on many sides. Easy to make a relatively cheap drone look expensive to a radar system.

You're still thinking slow and old vs. fast and agile production-wise. Literally a few days of modifications means hundreds of thousands of dollars to more in a missile lost to relatively nothing.

People are literally sweeping aside anti-tank mines. It's a whole new ball-game in non-guerilla warfare. Russia is getting pantsed. Their computer security is hilariously weak. Commercial plane travel in a meaningful manner is done for the forseeable future.