Washington & Lee 2022

[NJlxrdad]

However, it undeniable, that the lacrosse program has fallen off in the past several years, and unfortunately, there does not appear to be upswing in the near future.

Why do you think this? The program appears to be conisistant if anything.

The numbers say they are about the same as they’ve ever been. Certainly isn’t an. Up year right now.

Vs D3s best + ODACS all time

Cabrini 1-1 (lost in 2007 when Cabrini wasn’t even good yet)
Cortland 3-2 (last win was 1976)
Denison 5-13 (have never won back to back, currently have lost 4 in a row. Pretty standard pace for them)
CNU 6-3 (have lost 1 in a row, last loss was in 2021 in overtime)
Dickinson 3-1 (haven’t won since 2001, Dickinson was terrible back then)
F&M 16-18 (have really struggled vs them. F&M was a cellar dweller for a long time)
Gettysburg 11-17 (had a good stretch in the late 90s, have struggle to win this one consistently over the last 25 years)
Hampden-Sydney 27-15 (consistent pattern)
Middlebury 4-5 (most wins in the late 80s)
OWU 3-7
RMC 37-2 (25 game win streak)
RPI 0-2
Roanoke 37-27 (4 year win streak currently, struggled in the mid 2000s)
Salisbury 3-5 (1-5 since 2000, lone win vs Berkman was under McCabe)
Union 1-0 (game was in 1950)
Lynchburg 30-19 (7-3 since 2016, 2 losses were in 2021)
WAC 30-34 (10-3 since 2009)
Williams 3-3
York 3-7 (currently on a 7game losing streak - all wins date back pre Brandon Childs era when it was a young program.

W&L has had some great teams from time to time, but the numbers point to them consistently losing big games over the last 50 years then winning them… even in their D1 days they rarely beat big opponents.

Cornell 0-5
Duke 25-14 (Duke was abysmal until the late 90s)
Hofstra 4-16
Hopkins 1-9
Loyola 11-13
Princeton 2-1 (early 70s)
Rutgers 6-0 (70s)
Hobart 0-1 (lost by 23 in 1988)
Syracuse 1-5
Towson 13-10
Navy 3-8
Maryland 1-21
UNC 18-13 (most wins were pre 1964)
Virginia 9-40
VMI 20-2

The history shows they are consistently solid for the last 50 years, a few good years mixed in. It’s an historic program that’s really always a bridesmaid and never a bride.

wow, great work!

I think this sums it up pretty well. W&L is a top 30 team every year. Every few years they will punch up higher (most recently 2019) but struggle against top 20 opponents. You can say this is an off year but keep in mind so far in 8 games they'be played 5 ranked teams (at game time)losing to 4. So this falls in line with above. I also think 20,21 & 22 have been dramatically altered by Covid. As discussed lots of 5th & 6th year guys running around D3 right now. I believe CNU has 10?? Not an excuse, its just different. W&L has 1. The success of this season will come down to the games against Roanoke & Lynchburg, then the ODAC tourney. Lets see how that goes

[Dehuntshigwa’es]

Nice piece Insider, I have reviewed their record vs previous opponents over the years from their website. They do a nice job in presenting the history of the program. True that programs rise and fall it’s not a static position. Look at Washington College, Nazareth, OWU , Middlebury, Cortland they all had runs in D3 lax. I think the key is trying to remain relevant to the D3 landscape and get to the NCAA’s where you have a shot at a final 4, the women have done it recently. No doubt W&L has had some really nice teams the last 10 years. There’s something like 250 plus mens teams in the country the vast majority could only wish they could equal the success of the W&L program. The question or perhaps challenge is that considering the riches W&L has to offer are they doing as well as they should. Between the facilities, the teams history, academics, Lexington, and the work of the alum in assisting in job placement for graduates they just don’t sell that story to its fullest advantage. On another note, I’m curious to see some of the top NESCAC teams rosters and see how many players they miss that are south of the Mason Dixon line. That doesn’t necessarily assume W&L missed them perhaps they could not get in, just curious. Would we all agree that 1400 a 3.5 and or an ACT of 30 plus would likely get you in?

Back to lax, CNU is an outlier this year 10 5th years many who were AA’s last year. Tough tough matchup. Play hard and maybe if Spaghs stands on his head and win 60% of the draws ( fogo was hurt) they steal one late in the 4th, on the other hand it’s imperative to beat Roanoke. When the CNU fogo went down Lynchburg rallied going 13-6 on face offs as opposed to being 3 -11 in the first half when they were getting smoked

[InsiderRoll]

Nice piece Insider, I have reviewed their record vs previous opponents over the years from their website. They do a nice job in presenting the history of the program. True that programs rise and fall it’s not a static position. Look at Washington College, Nazareth, OWU , Middlebury, Cortland they all had runs in D3 lax. I think the key is trying to remain relevant to the D3 landscape and get to the NCAA’s where you have a shot at a final 4, the women have done it recently. No doubt W&L has had some really nice teams the last 10 years. There’s something like 250 plus mens teams in the country the vast majority could only wish they could equal the success of the W&L program. The question or perhaps challenge is that considering the riches W&L has to offer are they doing as well as they should. Between the facilities, the teams history, academics, Lexington, and the work of the alum in assisting in job placement for graduates they just don’t sell that story to its fullest advantage. On another note, I’m curious to see some of the top NESCAC teams rosters and see how many players they miss that are south of the Mason Dixon line. That doesn’t necessarily assume W&L missed them perhaps they could not get in, just curious. Would we all agree that 1400 a 3.5 and or an ACT of 30 plus would likely get you in?

Back to lax, CNU is an outlier this year 10 5th years many who were AA’s last year. Tough tough matchup. Play hard and maybe if Spaghs stands on his head and win 60% of the draws ( fogo was hurt) they steal one late in the 4th, on the other hand it’s imperative to beat Roanoke. When the CNU fogo went down Lynchburg rallied going 13-6 on face offs as opposed to being 3 -11 in the first half when they were getting smoked

I think it’s become more like a 3.8 and a 32 now. Tufts, Amherst and Williams will take kids with a 27. Albeit maybe only 1 or 2. I don’t think the W&L admin has any interest in supporting athletics the way Tufts does. Without a pier school in league to push them on that front it will remain the same. Their admissions for athletics is more like a Swarthmore or Haverford than a Tufts or Amherst. I think a lot of kids want to go there, but my feedback is that they are having to say no we can’t support you to kids that end up in the NESCAC. I know you mentioned the timing thing before, but they are handicapped there by there own admissions. It’s only a bout 2 weeks before July 1.

[Faxlax]

Tennis has a team title, as does golf and other “individual “ sports, i. e., golf. W&L has won two team titles.

Their NCAA tournament appearances have not led to getting past the second round in recent years.

[NJlxrdad]

What does W&L need to do to become a top 10 team each year and possibly contend for a title?

[Dehuntshigwa’es]

What does W&L need to do to become a top 10 team each year and possibly contend for a title?

Recruit , recruit, recruit . At the end of the day that’s step 1,2 and 3. Tell the story continually and consistently. The women are doing it, close to half their roster of 34 is from the girls power corridor of NJ and NY with 18 players from that area, they’ve developed a pipeline with good programs. It’s different for the men to a degree but they are inconsistent in targeting specific schools where they have drawn from and then miss for several years. There are large programs w great players that they have drawn from and quite frankly should get at least one a year or every other year. Amherst is an excellent example of having done this as have other NESCAC programs. York is another example. Sell the academics, facilities, and the jobs grads are placed in, parents love it. The weather in Lex is a month ahead of most of their competition. I’d make sure I’d continually post a where are they now campaign with players profiles from 1, 5 and 10 years from now , maybe 3 per class. Utilize and enhance the lax camp Coach has each year, leverage that better. Every month an e mail should be sent that’s automated profiling a highlight of the program starting in 10th grade that you have on your board. Strengthen the relationship with both club and high school coaches. Invite a high school or better still invite a strong club program to the school on their break to see a game and visit the campus , maybe practice on Wilson field. Check and hold accountable a particular assistant coach’s pipeline as to the status of the recruits in that pipeline, does he need any help with a recruit is there a previous team member of the recruit that can speak to W&L’s strengths. All this is obvious but it needs to be done consistently all the time. Getting a higher profile if possible by scheduling a game in a given area Baltimore as an example. Your current, and previous players other slums are your greatest ambassadors cultivate them, they’d be glad to help. Create a summer team to play in Lake Placid or some other venue… You can’t do these things some of the time it has to be done on a set schedule and recorded so you can evaluate your progress.There’s a great story to tell go do it. Did I break any NCAA rules? Now go out and beat Roanoke

[NJlxrdad]

What does W&L need to do to become a top 10 team each year and possibly contend for a title?

Recruit , recruit, recruit . At the end of the day that’s step 1,2 and 3. Tell the story continually and consistently. The women are doing it, close to half their roster of 34 is from the girls power corridor of NJ and NY with 18 players from that area, they’ve developed a pipeline with good programs. It’s different for the men to a degree but they are inconsistent in targeting specific schools where they have drawn from and then miss for several years. There are large programs w great players that they have drawn from and quite frankly should get at least one a year or every other year. Amherst is an excellent example of having done this as have other NESCAC programs. York is another example. Sell the academics, facilities, and the jobs grads are placed in, parents love it. The weather in Lex is a month ahead of most of their competition. I’d make sure I’d continually post a where are they now campaign with players profiles from 1, 5 and 10 years from now , maybe 3 per class. Utilize and enhance the lax camp Coach has each year, leverage that better. Every month an e mail should be sent that’s automated profiling a highlight of the program starting in 10th grade that you have on your board. Strengthen the relationship with both club and high school coaches. Invite a high school or better still invite a strong club program to the school on their break to see a game and visit the campus , maybe practice on Wilson field. Check and hold accountable a particular assistant coach’s pipeline as to the status of the recruits in that pipeline, does he need any help with a recruit is there a previous team member of the recruit that can speak to W&L’s strengths. All this is obvious but it needs to be done consistently all the time. Getting a higher profile if possible by scheduling a game in a given area Baltimore as an example. Your current, and previous players other slums are your greatest ambassadors cultivate them, they’d be glad to help. Create a summer team to play in Lake Placid or some other venue… You can’t do these things some of the time it has to be done on a set schedule and recorded so you can evaluate your progress.There’s a great story to tell go do it. Did I break any NCAA rules? Now go out and beat Roanoke

Good points

I’d throw in playing a more up tempo style of lacrosse and recruit players who thrive in that system. Watching CNU they pushed the ball whenever possible. LSMs stayed on offense in transition. You see it more and more in HS. The game has sped up. Lots of opportunities.

[DeepPocket]

... LSMs stayed on offense in transition. You see it more and more in HS. The game has sped up. Lots of opportunities.

^
This. RIT, Tufts, and CNU are all doing this with great success.

[InsiderRoll]

... LSMs stayed on offense in transition. You see it more and more in HS. The game has sped up. Lots of opportunities.

^
This. RIT, Tufts, and CNU are all doing this with great success.

It doesn’t really matter what style you play if you don’t have the players. If W&L tried to 10man non stop and push every unsettled opportunity they’d have about 40 turnovers. They can barely pass and catch right now.

Recruiting is your answer. RIT, Tufts, CNU all have significantly better players particularly on offense. York has been a top 10 program for almost a decade now and they barely push transition. Get talented players and teach them sound lacrosse, whatever your style is.

[MarionBarry]

Recruiting is priority number one when it comes to being a top ten team year in and year out. You can't win if you don't have the talent. If you look at the W&L roster, they are still getting kids from top high school programs around the country. Their top 5 scorers they come from Salesianum, St. Albans, St. John's prep (MA), Delbarton and Taft. I can't speak to the actual talent level of these players coming out of high school, or the level of recruit they were, but those are all great programs. I'm not sure if they are getting a Delbarton kid every year, but they still are getting North Jersey, Philly, Baltimore and DC recruits from top programs. I still think they have those pipelines.

The real question might be if these kids are getting any better over their four years? You can't just rely on a players talent coming out of high school and hope that he is a good college player. I think that is what is separating some of the top programs right now.

[NJlxrdad]

... LSMs stayed on offense in transition. You see it more and more in HS. The game has sped up. Lots of opportunities.

^
This. RIT, Tufts, and CNU are all doing this with great success.

It doesn’t really matter what style you play if you don’t have the players. If W&L tried to 10man non stop and push every unsettled opportunity they’d have about 40 turnovers. They can barely pass and catch right now.

Recruiting is your answer. RIT, Tufts, CNU all have significantly better players particularly on offense. York has been a top 10 program for almost a decade now and they barely push transition. Get talented players and teach them sound lacrosse, whatever your style is.

As I said. Recruit players to your system. I agree either your points

[Nothinbutthelax]

Much faster game
Tufts has pole,LSMs and SSDMs ru. The break. No trotting off to sub. LYN mids kept up them LYN attackman Jake Rust ran back to slow their break..
LYN just got worn out in 2nd half. Maybe Mustang tired but geez Tufts executed almost flawlessly..
Must recruit offensive minded SSDMs and poles but are we going back to 2 way middies?

[DeepPocket]

... LSMs stayed on offense in transition. You see it more and more in HS. The game has sped up. Lots of opportunities.

^
This. RIT, Tufts, and CNU are all doing this with great success.

It doesn’t really matter what style you play if you don’t have the players. If W&L tried to 10man non stop and push every unsettled opportunity they’d have about 40 turnovers. They can barely pass and catch right now.

Recruiting is your answer. RIT, Tufts, CNU all have significantly better players particularly on offense. York has been a top 10 program for almost a decade now and they barely push transition. Get talented players and teach them sound lacrosse, whatever your style is.

I think you missed my point, and then proved it in your comment. Years and eras have styles that clearly perform better than others. Right now the clear style outperforming others is uptempo transition with 2way midfield. W&L could more successfully recruit “their style” and still lose to the up tempos. (See your example- York). I wasn’t saying they should try that offense with their current pieces.

[InsiderRoll]

... LSMs stayed on offense in transition. You see it more and more in HS. The game has sped up. Lots of opportunities.

^
This. RIT, Tufts, and CNU are all doing this with great success.

It doesn’t really matter what style you play if you don’t have the players. If W&L tried to 10man non stop and push every unsettled opportunity they’d have about 40 turnovers. They can barely pass and catch right now.

Recruiting is your answer. RIT, Tufts, CNU all have significantly better players particularly on offense. York has been a top 10 program for almost a decade now and they barely push transition. Get talented players and teach them sound lacrosse, whatever your style is.

I think you missed my point, and then proved it in your comment. Years and eras have styles that clearly perform better than others. Right now the clear style outperforming others is uptempo transition with 2way midfield. W&L could more successfully recruit “their style” and still lose to the up tempos. (See your example- York). I wasn’t saying they should try that offense with their current pieces.

Salisbury is very balanced in their approach. Wesleyan and Cabrini won national championships with a balanced approach. Penn State had one of the greatest offenses in history and almost never pushed unsettled. Maryland is typically extremely conservative. If you get talent and coach it well, it doesn’t matter that much. York doesn’t have great O talent, hence they aren’t elite. The bigger underlying factor between RIT, Tufts, and CNU isn’t that they play fast. It’s that they have the best players. CNU has 6 offensive players that are all better than W&Ls best offensive player. When you have better athletes, stick skills, and speed you can play faster. Roanoke plus fast and has a contradictory style but comparable talent level to W&L. We’ll see how that goes. Roanoke trying to run with CNU with lesser athletes turned out a lot worse than 13-8.

[ReturnOfTheWAC]

Recruiting is priority number one when it comes to being a top ten team year in and year out. You can't win if you don't have the talent. If you look at the W&L roster, they are still getting kids from top high school programs around the country. Their top 5 scorers they come from Salesianum, St. Albans, St. John's prep (MA), Delbarton and Taft. I can't speak to the actual talent level of these players coming out of high school, or the level of recruit they were, but those are all great programs. I'm not sure if they are getting a Delbarton kid every year, but they still are getting North Jersey, Philly, Baltimore and DC recruits from top programs. I still think they have those pipelines.

The real question might be if these kids are getting any better over their four years? You can't just rely on a players talent coming out of high school and hope that he is a good college player. I think that is what is separating some of the top programs right now.

The last 2 years I feel F&M has been down on talent but previous to that they individually were some of the most talented players I watched all year. Their midfielders, were big, strong athletic, heck didn't they have a kid who couldn't get on the field as a face off man just play the wings a few years back? They had a lot of depth of scoring and talent but to me at least they couldn't figure it out when they played talent similar to theirs. Just my 2 cents from watching them a few times a season

[DeepPocket]

Salisbury is very balanced in their approach. Wesleyan and Cabrini won national championships with a balanced approach. Penn State had one of the greatest offenses in history and almost never pushed unsettled. Maryland is typically extremely conservative. If you get talent and coach it well, it doesn’t matter that much. York doesn’t have great O talent, hence they aren’t elite. The bigger underlying factor between RIT, Tufts, and CNU isn’t that they play fast. It’s that they have the best players. CNU has 6 offensive players that are all better than W&Ls best offensive player. When you have better athletes, stick skills, and speed you can play faster. Roanoke plus fast and has a contradictory style but comparable talent level to W&L. We’ll see how that goes. Roanoke trying to run with CNU with lesser athletes turned out a lot worse than 13-8.

My reply is that RIT CNU and Tufts have the best players who are in an offense where they’re tasked to play the way they are. I don’t think that Salisbury is less talented than those teams or couldn’t handle playing fast skill wise. That right now, the best transition seems to be beating the best settled style. Period. We could go back and forth all day. I guess we will see when Salisbury, who I would say is among the best at the settled game right now, sees one or more of the above. (Of course we could see the gulls try and play a faster transition style themselves, which would indicate that their staff sees that as an advantageous style and the argument would be over)

[NJlxrdad]

So what we all seem to be saying is...recruit well and play fast

[DeepPocket]

So what we all seem to be saying is...recruit well and play fast

100%. as I said, effective styles of play in sports go through eras as opponents work to dissect and defeat them. This year and last year, talented teams that play at a faster transition clip have proven to be dominant over talented teams who don’t.

Perhaps, at least initially, it was a product of game speed cardio being down for some post covid, who knows…

[NJlxrdad]

I think a few contributing factors have helped speed up play

1. The fast re-start
2. Shot Clock
3. Crazy good stick skills from long poles, which are helped by stick technology
4. Fogo's who can push and run

Going back to my original question...W&L does not seem to have its on Prospect Days like other schools. I do see the staff at summer events all over but I think getting kids, and parents on campus would be really helpful.

[InsiderRoll]

https://twitter.com/wlugenerals/status/ ... 1Un8p20wgA

This is a pretty wild statistic for all of the complaining that goes on in the W&L forum.