All Things Russia & Ukraine

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Brooklyn
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Brooklyn »

Peter Brown wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:38 am

Though I completely disagree with your Ukrainian war position, I appreciate you boxing MD in a corner here. You see, you can’t be for unlimited immigration unless you’re also for grossly higher taxation on your own self (not the mythical ‘tax that man over there’).

And if you’re for unlimited immigration and housing, which the left is, then you must also be for providing free housing to pretty much any American. And with free housing comes free services and food and healthcare and, well, everything!

And if you’re for unlimited freebies plus confiscatory taxation, you’re really an opponent of American greatness.

Appreciate your input, Brooklyn. Indirectly, you’re helping here. :lol:

You make a major error by saying it is the left that wants "unlimited immigration" with the resultant higher taxation. As I have previously pointed out several times, it is the right that wants an open door as shown by Reagan and by Bush. Both opened the door to unlimited immigration, refused to prosecute those companies or their CEO's for violating the law in hiring illegals, and who pass the buck (that is, the bill for all the increased social welfare costs) to the states. Recall that I have posted right winger Ron Paul's writings on the subject more than once on this and on the old LP site. All this and then they blame Democrats just like you have done.

I have also posted links to unemployment ratings in the reservations in the Dakotas and elsewhere. These ratings are often as high as 90%. Why not give the jobs to these people? There simply is no such thing as labor shortages. Let's see to it that all Americans have jobs with decent pay and good benefits. Then thereafter we worry about everyone else's problem.

As for the immigrants, let us apply a uniform standard of eligibility for admission. If we allow entry for those who dodge the military draft in Israel and Russia and all who escape poverty from Uzbek and Yugoslavia, and all who escape Afghanistan, Iraq, Russia, and Ukraine, then do the same for people from Central America and elsewhere. It's only fair.
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

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Peter Brown
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Peter Brown »

Brooklyn wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:56 pm
Peter Brown wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:38 am

Though I completely disagree with your Ukrainian war position, I appreciate you boxing MD in a corner here. You see, you can’t be for unlimited immigration unless you’re also for grossly higher taxation on your own self (not the mythical ‘tax that man over there’).

And if you’re for unlimited immigration and housing, which the left is, then you must also be for providing free housing to pretty much any American. And with free housing comes free services and food and healthcare and, well, everything!

And if you’re for unlimited freebies plus confiscatory taxation, you’re really an opponent of American greatness.

Appreciate your input, Brooklyn. Indirectly, you’re helping here. :lol:

You make a major error by saying it is the left that wants "unlimited immigration" with the resultant higher taxation. As I have previously pointed out several times, it is the right that wants an open door as shown by Reagan and by Bush. Both opened the door to unlimited immigration, refused to prosecute those companies or their CEO's for violating the law in hiring illegals, and who pass the buck (that is, the bill for all the increased social welfare costs) to the states. Recall that I have posted right winger Ron Paul's writings on the subject more than once on this and on the old LP site. All this and then they blame Democrats just like you have done.

I have also posted links to unemployment ratings in the reservations in the Dakotas and elsewhere. These ratings are often as high as 90%. Why not give the jobs to these people? There simply is no such thing as labor shortages. Let's see to it that all Americans have jobs with decent pay and good benefits. Then thereafter we worry about everyone else's problem.

As for the immigrants, let us apply a uniform standard of eligibility for admission. If we allow entry for those who dodge the military draft in Israel and Russia and all who escape poverty from Uzbek and Yugoslavia, and all who escape Afghanistan, Iraq, Russia, and Ukraine, then do the same for people from Central America and elsewhere. It's only fair.



It hurts me to admit when I agree with you sometimes. I partially agree with the above.

But let it be known that this ain’t Poppy’s old GOP no more. The GOP is a land of wolves now. Poppy and W should move to small towns; they wont survive here. They are not wolves and this is a land of wolves now.

:lol:
jhu72
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by jhu72 »

... rabid dogs. No wolves. :roll:
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youthathletics
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by youthathletics »

a fan wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:28 pm
youthathletics wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:12 pm
a fan wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:24 pm
Peter Brown wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:38 am Though I completely disagree with your Ukrainian war position, I appreciate you boxing MD in a corner here. You see, you can’t be for unlimited immigration unless you’re also for grossly higher taxation on your own self (not the mythical ‘tax that man over there’).
Uh oh. Petey's trying his hand at partisan math again. Where taxes are bad, borrowing every penny we spend makes perfect sense....and he and his party have never met a spending increase that they didn't vote "yes" for....so long as someone with a R by their name presents the bill.
Is debt, tax free?
...wanna rainbow curve that question again? I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're asking here....
Debt is actually good if you don't want to pay taxes, plus the gov't will just print more money as required, so you can get rich(er) if you continue to borrow in perpetuity.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
a fan
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by a fan »

youthathletics wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 3:08 pm Debt is actually good if you don't want to pay taxes, plus the gov't will just print more money as required, so you can get rich(er) if you continue to borrow in perpetuity.
Again...I don't understand what you're talking about here. Please tell me that you understand that you're going to pay MORE taxes if you borrow.

You know: interest. You get that, right?

...and where are interest rates headed now that they're trying to get inflation under control?

We're gonna blow $300 Billion on interest payments in 2022, YA. Money that goes to nothing.

Do you know how much we spend on K-12 education per year, my man? $584 Billion.

Do you get the problem here?
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

I'd be surprised if you guys don't actually agree that debt has a cost, just spread out over time. Not free.

Whether debt is "good" or "bad" versus paying immediately is a different question.
jhu72
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by jhu72 »

Alina Kabaeva, Putin's secret lover and mother of 1 or more of his youngest children is hiding out in Switzerland. The Ukrainians are now pushing to have her deported from Switzerland and returned to Russia. There is also a petition circulating among the people in Ukraine, Belarus and Russia, requesting her return to Russia. The petition reads:
We, the citizens of Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, which is currently undergoing immense suffering, are uniting to appeal to the Swiss authorities. The public has just learned that the Russian political and media figure, and former rhythmic gymnast, Alina Kabaeva, is hiding from the consequences of the sanctions imposed on the Russian Federation in YOUR country. She is the favorite wife of the delusional dictator and war criminal who has been treacherously attacking Ukraine over the past weeks. As she is supportive of social activities in Russia, she has been attempting to get Russian citizens accustomed to the reality of sanctions after 2014, and personally proclaimed: ''The worse it gets, the better for us!'' ....
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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

Kismet wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:13 pm https://www.salon.com/2022/03/22/putins ... in-moscow/

Interesting piece entitled - Putin's endgame: Will it be stalemate, nuclear war — or regime change in Moscow?
"Putin is a "rational actor," says scholar Matthew Schmidt — but he still might use nuclear weapons to avoid defeat"

I'd be curious for OS' thoughts on his premise
That is a superb analysis. Thanks for posting it.

I don't know IF Putin IS both sane & rational, but IF he is, I agree with Prof Schmidt on what I excerpted below.
I particularly agree with the part in blue
I'm not yet ready to go as far as the Prof on the part in red
I'm not sure that Russia will become European rather than uniquely Eurasian.
I don't fault us for not providing Patriots, Iron Dome & counter-battery radars in advance. We could not be sure that the Ukrainian army would hold on & that those weapons systems would not fall into Russian hands.
Schmidt issues an ominous warning: He believes Putin may order the use of battlefield nuclear weapons against Ukraine as a way of forcing a surrender and peace on his terms. With Russia's invasion force blunted by fierce Ukrainian resistance, Putin is targeting cities and other population centers for destruction in an effort to force Zelenskyy to sue for peace.

At the end of this conversation, Schmidt describes Zelenskyy as the true leader of the free world and a model of leadership that will be studied decades into the future.
As an expert in international relations and military affairs, when you look at Russia's war in Ukraine what do you see?

I see a war of independence that started in 2004 and will come to an end here. I do not believe it's just a war of independence in Ukraine. In the end, this all ends in the streets of Moscow. The shooting may stop in a year, it may stop in five years, or it may take considerably longer. But this is the event that has to bring down Putin. I think Ukraine frees Russia, eventually.

The other incorrect assumption was that Russia was going to take Ukraine easily, that it was somehow inevitable. Too many observers misunderstood the nature of the Ukrainian military and how, in a good way, their society was militarized over eight years.

Putin talks as though we're going to roll tanks to Moscow from eastern Ukraine, which is just absurd. ....Putin is engaging in maskirovka, this idea that you lie and deceive your enemy. One can even lie to their own people in the pursuit of this greater good.

...a willingness by too many supposed experts to disregard the fact that Putin is driven by a vision, a form of manifest destiny.

What are some analyses you have seen that are just pure hyperbole? Are there others that perhaps underplay the real dangers?
I'm not sure there is much hyperbole anymore. At the start of the war, the discussions about the potential for Putin to use nuclear weapons were hyperbolic. We have seen his tone change. We now have to take Putin's threats seriously and consider the most extreme possible outcomes.

I do not believe that Putin is going to nuke London and New York. I think that the real threat is the use of battlefield nuclear weapons. Because to me, what is driving Putin is his vision of manifest destiny for Russia and the larger region. I also believe that this vision is quasi-religious. What happens with secular "religious" fanatics, people possessed by some sense of destiny and vision, is that they often end up as martyrs and are willing to do extreme things. That is what is truly frightening to me.

There's good cause for people to be scared, but again, they are scared of the wrong thing. People are scared that New York is going to be nuked, instead of battlefield weapons being dropped across Ukraine, breaking that taboo.

Why would Russia deploy battlefield nuclear weapons? Why risk that spiral of escalation?

The danger is that Putin is losing the war. The Russians have — this comes from the Soviet era — written into their doctrine a theory called "escalate to de-escalate." Putin could escalate the war by using battlefield nukes to bring Zelenskyy to the table, who would then say that the cost to society, to his people, of doing this is now greater than the desire to hold on to their unity, their sovereignty as a nation. That's one way Putin could do it. He could use battlefield nukes in order either to push the West to act as an arbiter in negotiations with Zelenskyy, or to back the West off.

As long as he's using nukes inside Ukraine, it's a reasonable bet that the West won't intervene. Putin can use those nukes to regain control of what we in military planning call "operational tempo." Here Putin is forcing the other side to react to him instead of vice versa.
At present, the Ukrainians and Russians are evenly matched to some degree. The Ukrainians are forcing the Russian military to react. The Russian military was not ready for that. But of course, using tactical nukes would radically change that balance.

Nobody starts a war planning to lose. What were Putin and his generals' assumptions? How did it go so wrong for them?
They thought they could take Ukraine in a few days and that they would have Kyiv and functional control of the rest of the country. They woefully underestimated the fighting spirit and commitment of the Ukrainian military and of ordinary Ukrainians. Putin and his generals also misunderstood that the Ukrainian military always had a two-line strategy. The first was to defend the borders as long as possible. The second was to fall back in a cohesive way so that those military units were still able to operate in an orderly way and then transition into guerrilla war. The civilian reserves are integral to Ukraine's defenses as well.

What was the Russian military's plan, on the tactical level?
It appears that the Belarusian troops and the troops from the north are mostly conscripts. The plan was to roll them in, in large numbers, to take Kyiv. But these forces were second-tier. In the south, the Russians positioned the naval infantry, the marines out of Novorossiysk, to take the road that runs along the Sea of Azov and connects into Crimea. Those forces would then work as ground troops in cities like Mariupol and in the surrounding area. Russian forces are working toward Odessa, which is understood to be a "Russian city" culturally and is very important to Putin to take.

Putin had bad troops in the north who failed to maintain their vehicles. Stupidity was the causal variable that really caused that much-discussed huge convoy to bog down. The key error there was not maintaining the vehicles. The other error was that the Russians do not have a good NCO core, meaning the non-commissioned officers. Russian troops were also not told what they were going to Ukraine to do. That is a tactical error that has strategic-level importance.

And then, of course, where has the Russian air force been? The Russians did not expect the Ukrainians to be as capable as they have been in air defense. That's been a huge problem for the Russians, and will continue to be, because the United States has given Ukraine so many Stinger missiles. The U.S. and NATO are going to try to create a no-fly zone from the ground up. The Russian pilots were not given enough hours in their jets to properly train. They are not capable of effectively maneuvering around the Ukrainian air defenses, which they should be able to do.

Is this a story of the Russian military being incompetent or is the Ukrainian military that good?
It is both. The Ukrainian military is one of the best in Europe now. It's small, and it doesn't have the equipment, but it is battle-hardened. You have two or three generations of fighters who have now passed through the front lines in Ukraine, going back to 2014. There are a lot of Ukrainians that have really good operational experience on the ground.

I think the Russians really did underestimate just how good the Ukrainian military was. Putin misunderstood the nature of the war. I also believe that Putin, like Western armchair generals, overplayed the impact of fancy tech and fancy weapon systems, and underplayed the importance of solid small-unit capabilities and the will to fight.

And then I think you have a problem with the culture of the Russian military. It is true that Putin modernized the military, but the culture is still heavily Soviet. It is deeply hierarchical. It doesn't devolve command down to the tactical level because it doesn't trust tactical commanders. As a result, the Russian military under that system makes many mistakes on the ground, whereas the Ukrainian military has highly talented, mobile, independent units that can punch above their weight because they're led better than the Russians are, even if the Russians have better weapons.
But this is also why the war is going to get even bloodier. The Soviet tendency to work from the top down means that orders are given to just obliterate cities because that is the easiest thing to do.

There are many cheerleaders for NATO who are proclaiming that the Russian military is so incompetent that the U.S. military, along with NATO, would defeat them easily. What is the error of inference and assumption there, if there is one?
The error is that Putin would escalate. Putin sees Ukraine as Russian territory. If the U.S. and NATO were to go into Ukraine and impose a no-fly zone or something of that sort, Putin is going to see that as an attack on Russia. Putin would then have a rationale to escalate with things like battlefield nukes.

There are units such as the naval infantry that are probably Russia's best troops. They would put up a hard fight. But as good as those elite troops are, our entire Marine Corps is as good as they are. Not just our special forces in the Marine Corps, but your average jarhead is probably close to Russia's best in many ways. Yes, we would win if we were allowed to fight it at that level. But Putin would escalate to de-escalate.

Will the weapons and other support being sent to Ukraine by the U.S. and its NATO allies help to turn the tide of battle against the Russian forces? I am thinking specifically of Switchblade drones and other semi-autonomous weapons, as well as the S-300 surface-to-air missile systems that are being discussed.

When Zelenskyy says he needs a no-fly zone, we should listen. But in this case, I see the evidence as showing that the bulk of the damage is being caused by missiles and artillery. We've made a mistake not putting in Patriots or an "Iron Dome" system, and anti-artillery systems (counter-battery systems). Not doing that has given Putin leverage by being able to punish civilians and in effect take them hostage because he can target civilians with impunity.

Is Vladimir Putin a rational actor? That does not mean that you and I or anyone else endorse his behavior — that is a common misunderstanding of the definition. How do experts explain what that concept actually means?
...Putin's not crazy. Putin is following his own system of logic. He's as predictable as any of us are.

What is Putin's theory of Russia's destiny?
Putin believes that Russia has a special place in world history. Russia's role is to drive world history by standing between what he sees as European values and Asian values. In Putin's mind, if Russia is not the center of this geographic and cultural and spiritual space known as Eurasia, then the future of mankind is different, perhaps even catastrophic. Putin is trying to preserve the capacity of Russia to keep its space as a great power in human history. Putin has to maintain control of Ukraine because it is historically and spiritually critical to that project.

For Putin, if Ukraine goes democratic and adopts European values, which "Eurasianism" is against, then Ukraine becomes the point through which Russia loses its Eurasian values and becomes European. He is afraid of a Westernized and Europeanized Ukraine that has a stable democracy, however corrupt and whatnot, that believes in things like gay rights and a free press. If that happens, that destroys what Putin believes is the appropriate cultural space for Russia to lead.

The public needs to understand that the information war is arguably more important than the war on the battlefield. To some extent, the kinetic war is driven by the need to create images and narratives that are circulated across the information realm. In turn, this drives the willingness of the U.S. Congress, for example to pass bills that will bring aid to Ukraine. That is a huge strategic win for Ukraine, in terms of the information war and world public opinion. Propaganda works best when there is truth in it, even if there are things that are not real as well.

I also believe that, insofar as you can have a justified or a moral war, then Ukraine's defense of their country is one such example. The public needs to get ready for the fact that there will be atrocities committed by Ukrainian troops. There is a huge amount of anger in these troops. Especially as this devolves into a war with civilians, I think you'll see those stories come out. You'll find less disciplined civilian defense units that will commit war crimes against Russians if they have the opportunity.

How would Putin define some sort of "victory with honor," in terms of ending this war in a ceasefire or other negotiated resolution?
Victory for Putin is controlling the political future of Ukraine. Putin does not need to make Ukraine a part of Russia in the legal sense. However, Putin has to control the political future of Ukraine. I do not believe there is an ending to this war short of that which will satisfy Putin. That is why I'm afraid of escalation.

Again, ultimately this ends in the streets of Moscow with the destruction of the Putinist regime. For Russia, this means the culmination of its post-Soviet stage of development because it has replicated the same sort of personality cult as the czars and Stalin. Now it is in the form of Putin. That must end.

That's where we end up ultimately. It may be a long time after the shooting stops in the war. I do not see any other route for the Russian people but to decide that their country has to step down from being a world power and instead be a European power, with all the rights and theories of European governance in place.
Russia must cede its position as a world player to countries like the U.S. and China.

The situation in Ukraine is dynamic. With all of the talk of negotiation, Putin's army supposedly stalled and daily images of atrocities, how do you read the big picture?

The Russian military has reached "culmination." That term means the time when the attacking force can no longer continue its advance. Russia has been hit unexpectedly hard. It's taken significant losses, including in senior officers, critical equipment and supplies. The front is basically static at this point.

The implication is that Putin will have to: 1) negotiate, 2) resupply and restart the same basic plan or 3) adopt a new plan that gets around the reasons he can't advance. Putin is not actually ready to negotiate. He will escalate the war with NATO and not Ukraine. The escalation is aimed at pressuring the West to be his weapon and to put pressure on Zelenskyy to capitulate, because he knows the West won't intervene to allow Ukraine to win on the ground.

Zelenskyy is now saying that he'd negotiate right away. Putin changed his plan and decided to use missiles and artillery — which the West could have helped to blunt — to take whole cities and populations hostage. Now Zelenskyy is being forced to choose between the population he's responsible for that is being held hostage, such as in Mariupol, and the things that population is fighting and dying for, which are independence, territorial integrity and European values and identity.

Putin's center of gravity is the fact that he can hold those cities hostage. Without that, he doesn't have leverage. But at this moment in the war, Putin has that leverage. In this moment, Putin is in fact not deterrable by anything Ukraine can do, because they don't have the tools to stop his hostage-taking.

The only other choice for Zelenskyy is to continue the fight until the conditions shift and he has leverage to counter Putin's leverage, but at a great cost in the lives of his people. The only other option is for NATO to intervene by forcibly setting up the necessary weapons to stop the missiles and artillery, which would be a significant escalation.

How would you assess Zelenskyy's performance?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy has effectively become the leader of the free world. He has articulated the values of the West better than any of his peers and proven himself the most capable military leader on the planet today. He has led his people to a stalemate against the second-best military on the planet. Even if he can't "win," he's shown Western militaries how to use information, diplomacy and force of arms to fight the most modern war yet. He will be studied in war colleges for decades to come.
DocBarrister
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by DocBarrister »

old salt wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:06 pm
Kismet wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:13 pm https://www.salon.com/2022/03/22/putins ... in-moscow/

Interesting piece entitled - Putin's endgame: Will it be stalemate, nuclear war — or regime change in Moscow?
"Putin is a "rational actor," says scholar Matthew Schmidt — but he still might use nuclear weapons to avoid defeat"

I'd be curious for OS' thoughts on his premise
That is a superb analysis. Thanks for posting it.

I don't know IF Putin IS both sane & rational, but IF he is, I agree with Prof Schmidt on what I excerpted below.
I particularly agree with the part in blue
I'm not yet ready to go as far as the Prof on the part in red
I'm not sure that Russia will become European rather than uniquely Eurasian.
I don't fault us for not providing Patriots, Iron Dome & counter-battery radars in advance. We could not be sure that the Ukrainian army would hold on & that those weapons systems would not fall into Russian hands.
Schmidt issues an ominous warning: He believes Putin may order the use of battlefield nuclear weapons against Ukraine as a way of forcing a surrender and peace on his terms. With Russia's invasion force blunted by fierce Ukrainian resistance, Putin is targeting cities and other population centers for destruction in an effort to force Zelenskyy to sue for peace.

At the end of this conversation, Schmidt describes Zelenskyy as the true leader of the free world and a model of leadership that will be studied decades into the future.
As an expert in international relations and military affairs, when you look at Russia's war in Ukraine what do you see?

I see a war of independence that started in 2004 and will come to an end here. I do not believe it's just a war of independence in Ukraine. In the end, this all ends in the streets of Moscow. The shooting may stop in a year, it may stop in five years, or it may take considerably longer. But this is the event that has to bring down Putin. I think Ukraine frees Russia, eventually.

The other incorrect assumption was that Russia was going to take Ukraine easily, that it was somehow inevitable. Too many observers misunderstood the nature of the Ukrainian military and how, in a good way, their society was militarized over eight years.

Putin talks as though we're going to roll tanks to Moscow from eastern Ukraine, which is just absurd. ....Putin is engaging in maskirovka, this idea that you lie and deceive your enemy. One can even lie to their own people in the pursuit of this greater good.

...a willingness by too many supposed experts to disregard the fact that Putin is driven by a vision, a form of manifest destiny.

What are some analyses you have seen that are just pure hyperbole? Are there others that perhaps underplay the real dangers?
I'm not sure there is much hyperbole anymore. At the start of the war, the discussions about the potential for Putin to use nuclear weapons were hyperbolic. We have seen his tone change. We now have to take Putin's threats seriously and consider the most extreme possible outcomes.

I do not believe that Putin is going to nuke London and New York. I think that the real threat is the use of battlefield nuclear weapons. Because to me, what is driving Putin is his vision of manifest destiny for Russia and the larger region. I also believe that this vision is quasi-religious. What happens with secular "religious" fanatics, people possessed by some sense of destiny and vision, is that they often end up as martyrs and are willing to do extreme things. That is what is truly frightening to me.

There's good cause for people to be scared, but again, they are scared of the wrong thing. People are scared that New York is going to be nuked, instead of battlefield weapons being dropped across Ukraine, breaking that taboo.

Why would Russia deploy battlefield nuclear weapons? Why risk that spiral of escalation?

The danger is that Putin is losing the war. The Russians have — this comes from the Soviet era — written into their doctrine a theory called "escalate to de-escalate." Putin could escalate the war by using battlefield nukes to bring Zelenskyy to the table, who would then say that the cost to society, to his people, of doing this is now greater than the desire to hold on to their unity, their sovereignty as a nation. That's one way Putin could do it. He could use battlefield nukes in order either to push the West to act as an arbiter in negotiations with Zelenskyy, or to back the West off.

As long as he's using nukes inside Ukraine, it's a reasonable bet that the West won't intervene. Putin can use those nukes to regain control of what we in military planning call "operational tempo." Here Putin is forcing the other side to react to him instead of vice versa.
At present, the Ukrainians and Russians are evenly matched to some degree. The Ukrainians are forcing the Russian military to react. The Russian military was not ready for that. But of course, using tactical nukes would radically change that balance.

Nobody starts a war planning to lose. What were Putin and his generals' assumptions? How did it go so wrong for them?
They thought they could take Ukraine in a few days and that they would have Kyiv and functional control of the rest of the country. They woefully underestimated the fighting spirit and commitment of the Ukrainian military and of ordinary Ukrainians. Putin and his generals also misunderstood that the Ukrainian military always had a two-line strategy. The first was to defend the borders as long as possible. The second was to fall back in a cohesive way so that those military units were still able to operate in an orderly way and then transition into guerrilla war. The civilian reserves are integral to Ukraine's defenses as well.

What was the Russian military's plan, on the tactical level?
It appears that the Belarusian troops and the troops from the north are mostly conscripts. The plan was to roll them in, in large numbers, to take Kyiv. But these forces were second-tier. In the south, the Russians positioned the naval infantry, the marines out of Novorossiysk, to take the road that runs along the Sea of Azov and connects into Crimea. Those forces would then work as ground troops in cities like Mariupol and in the surrounding area. Russian forces are working toward Odessa, which is understood to be a "Russian city" culturally and is very important to Putin to take.

Putin had bad troops in the north who failed to maintain their vehicles. Stupidity was the causal variable that really caused that much-discussed huge convoy to bog down. The key error there was not maintaining the vehicles. The other error was that the Russians do not have a good NCO core, meaning the non-commissioned officers. Russian troops were also not told what they were going to Ukraine to do. That is a tactical error that has strategic-level importance.

And then, of course, where has the Russian air force been? The Russians did not expect the Ukrainians to be as capable as they have been in air defense. That's been a huge problem for the Russians, and will continue to be, because the United States has given Ukraine so many Stinger missiles. The U.S. and NATO are going to try to create a no-fly zone from the ground up. The Russian pilots were not given enough hours in their jets to properly train. They are not capable of effectively maneuvering around the Ukrainian air defenses, which they should be able to do.

Is this a story of the Russian military being incompetent or is the Ukrainian military that good?
It is both. The Ukrainian military is one of the best in Europe now. It's small, and it doesn't have the equipment, but it is battle-hardened. You have two or three generations of fighters who have now passed through the front lines in Ukraine, going back to 2014. There are a lot of Ukrainians that have really good operational experience on the ground.

I think the Russians really did underestimate just how good the Ukrainian military was. Putin misunderstood the nature of the war. I also believe that Putin, like Western armchair generals, overplayed the impact of fancy tech and fancy weapon systems, and underplayed the importance of solid small-unit capabilities and the will to fight.

And then I think you have a problem with the culture of the Russian military. It is true that Putin modernized the military, but the culture is still heavily Soviet. It is deeply hierarchical. It doesn't devolve command down to the tactical level because it doesn't trust tactical commanders. As a result, the Russian military under that system makes many mistakes on the ground, whereas the Ukrainian military has highly talented, mobile, independent units that can punch above their weight because they're led better than the Russians are, even if the Russians have better weapons.
But this is also why the war is going to get even bloodier. The Soviet tendency to work from the top down means that orders are given to just obliterate cities because that is the easiest thing to do.

There are many cheerleaders for NATO who are proclaiming that the Russian military is so incompetent that the U.S. military, along with NATO, would defeat them easily. What is the error of inference and assumption there, if there is one?
The error is that Putin would escalate. Putin sees Ukraine as Russian territory. If the U.S. and NATO were to go into Ukraine and impose a no-fly zone or something of that sort, Putin is going to see that as an attack on Russia. Putin would then have a rationale to escalate with things like battlefield nukes.

There are units such as the naval infantry that are probably Russia's best troops. They would put up a hard fight. But as good as those elite troops are, our entire Marine Corps is as good as they are. Not just our special forces in the Marine Corps, but your average jarhead is probably close to Russia's best in many ways. Yes, we would win if we were allowed to fight it at that level. But Putin would escalate to de-escalate.

Will the weapons and other support being sent to Ukraine by the U.S. and its NATO allies help to turn the tide of battle against the Russian forces? I am thinking specifically of Switchblade drones and other semi-autonomous weapons, as well as the S-300 surface-to-air missile systems that are being discussed.

When Zelenskyy says he needs a no-fly zone, we should listen. But in this case, I see the evidence as showing that the bulk of the damage is being caused by missiles and artillery. We've made a mistake not putting in Patriots or an "Iron Dome" system, and anti-artillery systems (counter-battery systems). Not doing that has given Putin leverage by being able to punish civilians and in effect take them hostage because he can target civilians with impunity.

Is Vladimir Putin a rational actor? That does not mean that you and I or anyone else endorse his behavior — that is a common misunderstanding of the definition. How do experts explain what that concept actually means?
...Putin's not crazy. Putin is following his own system of logic. He's as predictable as any of us are.

What is Putin's theory of Russia's destiny?
Putin believes that Russia has a special place in world history. Russia's role is to drive world history by standing between what he sees as European values and Asian values. In Putin's mind, if Russia is not the center of this geographic and cultural and spiritual space known as Eurasia, then the future of mankind is different, perhaps even catastrophic. Putin is trying to preserve the capacity of Russia to keep its space as a great power in human history. Putin has to maintain control of Ukraine because it is historically and spiritually critical to that project.

For Putin, if Ukraine goes democratic and adopts European values, which "Eurasianism" is against, then Ukraine becomes the point through which Russia loses its Eurasian values and becomes European. He is afraid of a Westernized and Europeanized Ukraine that has a stable democracy, however corrupt and whatnot, that believes in things like gay rights and a free press. If that happens, that destroys what Putin believes is the appropriate cultural space for Russia to lead.

The public needs to understand that the information war is arguably more important than the war on the battlefield. To some extent, the kinetic war is driven by the need to create images and narratives that are circulated across the information realm. In turn, this drives the willingness of the U.S. Congress, for example to pass bills that will bring aid to Ukraine. That is a huge strategic win for Ukraine, in terms of the information war and world public opinion. Propaganda works best when there is truth in it, even if there are things that are not real as well.

I also believe that, insofar as you can have a justified or a moral war, then Ukraine's defense of their country is one such example. The public needs to get ready for the fact that there will be atrocities committed by Ukrainian troops. There is a huge amount of anger in these troops. Especially as this devolves into a war with civilians, I think you'll see those stories come out. You'll find less disciplined civilian defense units that will commit war crimes against Russians if they have the opportunity.

How would Putin define some sort of "victory with honor," in terms of ending this war in a ceasefire or other negotiated resolution?
Victory for Putin is controlling the political future of Ukraine. Putin does not need to make Ukraine a part of Russia in the legal sense. However, Putin has to control the political future of Ukraine. I do not believe there is an ending to this war short of that which will satisfy Putin. That is why I'm afraid of escalation.

Again, ultimately this ends in the streets of Moscow with the destruction of the Putinist regime. For Russia, this means the culmination of its post-Soviet stage of development because it has replicated the same sort of personality cult as the czars and Stalin. Now it is in the form of Putin. That must end.

That's where we end up ultimately. It may be a long time after the shooting stops in the war. I do not see any other route for the Russian people but to decide that their country has to step down from being a world power and instead be a European power, with all the rights and theories of European governance in place.
Russia must cede its position as a world player to countries like the U.S. and China.

The situation in Ukraine is dynamic. With all of the talk of negotiation, Putin's army supposedly stalled and daily images of atrocities, how do you read the big picture?

The Russian military has reached "culmination." That term means the time when the attacking force can no longer continue its advance. Russia has been hit unexpectedly hard. It's taken significant losses, including in senior officers, critical equipment and supplies. The front is basically static at this point.

The implication is that Putin will have to: 1) negotiate, 2) resupply and restart the same basic plan or 3) adopt a new plan that gets around the reasons he can't advance. Putin is not actually ready to negotiate. He will escalate the war with NATO and not Ukraine. The escalation is aimed at pressuring the West to be his weapon and to put pressure on Zelenskyy to capitulate, because he knows the West won't intervene to allow Ukraine to win on the ground.

Zelenskyy is now saying that he'd negotiate right away. Putin changed his plan and decided to use missiles and artillery — which the West could have helped to blunt — to take whole cities and populations hostage. Now Zelenskyy is being forced to choose between the population he's responsible for that is being held hostage, such as in Mariupol, and the things that population is fighting and dying for, which are independence, territorial integrity and European values and identity.

Putin's center of gravity is the fact that he can hold those cities hostage. Without that, he doesn't have leverage. But at this moment in the war, Putin has that leverage. In this moment, Putin is in fact not deterrable by anything Ukraine can do, because they don't have the tools to stop his hostage-taking.

The only other choice for Zelenskyy is to continue the fight until the conditions shift and he has leverage to counter Putin's leverage, but at a great cost in the lives of his people. The only other option is for NATO to intervene by forcibly setting up the necessary weapons to stop the missiles and artillery, which would be a significant escalation.

How would you assess Zelenskyy's performance?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy has effectively become the leader of the free world. He has articulated the values of the West better than any of his peers and proven himself the most capable military leader on the planet today. He has led his people to a stalemate against the second-best military on the planet. Even if he can't "win," he's shown Western militaries how to use information, diplomacy and force of arms to fight the most modern war yet. He will be studied in war colleges for decades to come.
Putin vastly underestimated the united response led by President Biden and NATO. Putin’s thwarted reliance on foreign currency reserves is a clear sign of that.

If Putin, like this “expert”, thinks the world won’t drastically escalate their actions in response to a nuclear strike in Ukraine, then he is making yet another catastrophic blunder.

If Putin uses a nuke, Russia will become more isolated than North Korea or Iran. It will eventually be the end of Putin’s regime and it will be the end of Russia as a major power.

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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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DocBarrister wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:55 pm Putin vastly underestimated the united response led by President Biden and NATO. Putin’s thwarted reliance on foreign currency reserves is a clear sign of that.

If Putin, like this “expert”, thinks the world won’t drastically escalate their actions in response to a nuclear strike in Ukraine, then he is making yet another catastrophic blunder.

If Putin uses a nuke, Russia will become more isolated than North Korea or Iran. It will eventually be the end of Putin’s regime and it will be the end of Russia as a major power.

DocBarrister
Interesting theory. Is it worth the risk to find out ?
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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old salt wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:06 pm However, Putin has to control the political future of Ukraine. I do not believe there is an ending to this war short of that which will satisfy Putin.
That's what I meant by: Putin has already lost. He will never gain control of Ukraine now.

This is, again, why I think he's an idiot playing a bad game of checkers, not chess. If he REALLY wanted to control Ukraine with puppets...that's always a possibility, even if they were members of NATO.

Now that he's invaded? With each passing bomb, Ukrainians hate him more and more. Someone who tries to run as a Putin puppet is likely to wind up thrown out of a window. And the bitterness Ukraine and the world feel toward Putin and Russia will last until Putin is dead. Good luck moving Russia forward as a nation under these circumstances....he's crippling all ambitions of keeping Russia a power in the coming decades.

He's an idiot. And we're all paying the price for his stupidity...especially Ukrainians, obviously.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Brooklyn »

The "idiot"'s popularity ratings have actually gone up since he started this part of the on going conflict:


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/vl ... uxbndlbing



It will recalled that traitor Bush's numbers also went up after he started his war. He even won reelection and spent the"political capital" he got from his "win". But the USA's standing in the world dropped. Perhaps this might be Russia's fate as you folks say. Time will tell.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

a fan wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:46 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:06 pm However, Putin has to control the political future of Ukraine. I do not believe there is an ending to this war short of that which will satisfy Putin.
That's what I meant by: Putin has already lost. He will never gain control of Ukraine now.

This is, again, why I think he's an idiot playing a bad game of checkers, not chess. If he REALLY wanted to control Ukraine with puppets...that's always a possibility, even if they were members of NATO.

Now that he's invaded? With each passing bomb, Ukrainians hate him more and more. Someone who tries to run as a Putin puppet is likely to wind up thrown out of a window. And the bitterness Ukraine and the world feel toward Putin and Russia will last until Putin is dead. Good luck moving Russia forward as a nation under these circumstances....he's crippling all ambitions of keeping Russia a power in the coming decades.

He's an idiot. And we're all paying the price for his stupidity...especially Ukrainians, obviously.
FTR -- those are Prof Schmidt's words not mine. 2 out-of-context sentences from a lengthy analysis.

Putin may ultimately gain control of portions of Ukraine which are strategically important to Russia, as he has with Crimea for the past 7 years.
The performance of Ukraine's military demonstrates how much military aid & training they have quietly received from the US & NATO during that time. Imagine how effective the Ukrainians would have been had they been NATO members during that time.
This is proving that Putin is not paranoid. He is rational to feel threatened by a NATO Ukraine on his border.

Sanctions are damaging not just Russia. As soon as they have the fig leaf of a negotiated settlement, watch how fast the EUroburghers start slurping up Russian gas & oil again (they haven't stopped yet) , as they flood back into the Russian market. The Russians will still be importing Mercedes & BMW's. They won't be driving Zaporozhets & Zils again. Russia is still in the SWIFT system, their stocks are not de-listed, their debt is still being traded, companies like Renault are still doing business with them.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by DocBarrister »

old salt wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:15 pm
DocBarrister wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:55 pm Putin vastly underestimated the united response led by President Biden and NATO. Putin’s thwarted reliance on foreign currency reserves is a clear sign of that.

If Putin, like this “expert”, thinks the world won’t drastically escalate their actions in response to a nuclear strike in Ukraine, then he is making yet another catastrophic blunder.

If Putin uses a nuke, Russia will become more isolated than North Korea or Iran. It will eventually be the end of Putin’s regime and it will be the end of Russia as a major power.

DocBarrister
Interesting theory. Is it worth the risk to find out ?
That’s a question that should be directed to Putin and his enablers.

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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by DocBarrister »

old salt wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:55 am
a fan wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:46 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:06 pm However, Putin has to control the political future of Ukraine. I do not believe there is an ending to this war short of that which will satisfy Putin.
That's what I meant by: Putin has already lost. He will never gain control of Ukraine now.

This is, again, why I think he's an idiot playing a bad game of checkers, not chess. If he REALLY wanted to control Ukraine with puppets...that's always a possibility, even if they were members of NATO.

Now that he's invaded? With each passing bomb, Ukrainians hate him more and more. Someone who tries to run as a Putin puppet is likely to wind up thrown out of a window. And the bitterness Ukraine and the world feel toward Putin and Russia will last until Putin is dead. Good luck moving Russia forward as a nation under these circumstances....he's crippling all ambitions of keeping Russia a power in the coming decades.

He's an idiot. And we're all paying the price for his stupidity...especially Ukrainians, obviously.
FTR -- those are Prof Schmidt's words not mine. 2 out-of-context sentences from a lengthy analysis.

Putin may ultimately gain control of portions of Ukraine which are strategically important to Russia, as he has with Crimea for the past 7 years.
The performance of Ukraine's military demonstrates how much military aid & training they have quietly received from the US & NATO during that time. Imagine how effective the Ukrainians would have been had they been NATO members during that time.
This is proving that Putin is not paranoid. He is rational to feel threatened by a NATO Ukraine on his border.

Sanctions are damaging not just Russia. As soon as they have the fig leaf of a negotiated settlement, watch how fast the EUroburghers start slurping up Russian gas & oil again (they haven't stopped yet) , as they flood back into the Russian market. The Russians will still be importing Mercedes & BMW's. They won't be driving Zaporozhets & Zils again. Russia is still in the SWIFT system, their stocks are not de-listed, their debt is still being traded, companies like Renault are still doing business with them.
After a month of this conflict, you are still rooting for Putin and Russia.

This war needs to end in humiliation for Putin and Russia. Anything less would be appeasement.

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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

DocBarrister wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 12:46 pm
old salt wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:55 am
a fan wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:46 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:06 pm However, Putin has to control the political future of Ukraine. I do not believe there is an ending to this war short of that which will satisfy Putin.
That's what I meant by: Putin has already lost. He will never gain control of Ukraine now.

This is, again, why I think he's an idiot playing a bad game of checkers, not chess. If he REALLY wanted to control Ukraine with puppets...that's always a possibility, even if they were members of NATO.

Now that he's invaded? With each passing bomb, Ukrainians hate him more and more. Someone who tries to run as a Putin puppet is likely to wind up thrown out of a window. And the bitterness Ukraine and the world feel toward Putin and Russia will last until Putin is dead. Good luck moving Russia forward as a nation under these circumstances....he's crippling all ambitions of keeping Russia a power in the coming decades.

He's an idiot. And we're all paying the price for his stupidity...especially Ukrainians, obviously.
FTR -- those are Prof Schmidt's words not mine. 2 out-of-context sentences from a lengthy analysis.

Putin may ultimately gain control of portions of Ukraine which are strategically important to Russia, as he has with Crimea for the past 7 years.
The performance of Ukraine's military demonstrates how much military aid & training they have quietly received from the US & NATO during that time. Imagine how effective the Ukrainians would have been had they been NATO members during that time.
This is proving that Putin is not paranoid. He is rational to feel threatened by a NATO Ukraine on his border.

Sanctions are damaging not just Russia. As soon as they have the fig leaf of a negotiated settlement, watch how fast the EUroburghers start slurping up Russian gas & oil again (they haven't stopped yet) , as they flood back into the Russian market. The Russians will still be importing Mercedes & BMW's. They won't be driving Zaporozhets & Zils again. Russia is still in the SWIFT system, their stocks are not de-listed, their debt is still being traded, companies like Renault are still doing business with them.
After a month of this conflict, you are still rooting for Putin and Russia.
That is just petty & stupid (as usual). This is not a game,
I'm "rooting" for a way to end the killing & carnage asap, while still giving the Ukrainians a "Win", & a future as an independent nation.

This war needs to end in humiliation for Putin and Russia. Anything less would be appeasement.
No matter how many Ukrainians must die, how many more refugees must abandon their homes & overwhelm Europe. Even if reduces Ukraine to rubble, escalates to the use of tactical nukes & drags the US & maybe even NATO into a war with no end in sight.
Anything less than regime change & control of all of Ukraine represents humiliation & a "Loss" for Putin.


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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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old salt wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:55 amThis is proving that Putin is not paranoid. He is rational to feel threatened by a NATO Ukraine on his border.
This is the part i don't get. Will you elaborate? Would a "NATO Ukraine" EVER think of actually invading Russia? Parts of Russia? You think that Ukraine "invading" Crimea to get it back is what makes Vlad feel threatened?

NATO is a defensive alliance. Have they EVER acted "offensively" or threatened such behavior??

..
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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dislaxxic wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:53 pm
old salt wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:55 amThis is proving that Putin is not paranoid. He is rational to feel threatened by a NATO Ukraine on his border.
This is the part i don't get. Will you elaborate? Would a "NATO Ukraine" EVER think of actually invading Russia? Parts of Russia? You think that Ukraine "invading" Crimea to get it back is what makes Vlad feel threatened?

NATO is a defensive alliance. Have they EVER acted "offensively" or threatened such behavior??

..
Spare us the propaganda.
NATO is a defensive alliance whose members have an overwhelming offensive capability, now deployed right up to Russia's border.
"Defensive" is just a word. A rhetorical device, just as Putin saying that his current undertaking is a defensive effort to defend Russia's borders.
Ask Serbia or Libya how defensive NATO is. Or Iraq & Afghanistan.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Kismet »

The latest

The U.S. government has formally concluded that Russian forces have committed war crimes in Ukraine, Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken said in a statement. Blinken and President Biden had previously said only as a matter of personal opinion that they believed war crimes had occurred.

Sweden (not part of NATO) will send a further 5,000 antitank weapons to Ukraine, Defense Minister Peter Hultqvist said, according to the public broadcaster Radio Sweden. Sweden in February broke its doctrine of not sending arms to countries in active conflict, saying that it would send military equipment, including antitank weapons, to Ukraine.

The American basketball star Brittney Griner, detained by Russia in February on drug charges, is in “good condition,” the U.S. State Department spokesman Ned Price told CNN on Wednesday, citing a U.S. Embassy official in Moscow who was recently granted consular access to the Phoenix Mercury center.

NATO Chief Stoltenberg on deployment of additional battalions to Eastern flank

“The first step is the deployment of four new NATO battlegroups in Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania and Slovakia, along with our existing forces in the Baltic countries and Poland,” he said, detailing the bolstering of NATO’s posture along its eastern frontier with the combat-ready, battalion-size units, which typically have several hundred troops each. “This means that we will have eight multinational NATO battlegroups all along the eastern flank, from the Baltic to the Black Sea,” he added.

Madeleine Albright, the first woman US Secretary of State, has died. She was 84
Last edited by Kismet on Wed Mar 23, 2022 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by dislaxxic »

old salt wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 2:02 pm
Spare us the propaganda.
NATO is a defensive alliance whose members have an overwhelming offensive capability, now deployed right up to Russia's border.
"Defensive" is just a word. A rhetorical device, just as Putin saying that his current undertaking is a defensive effort to defend Russia's borders.
Ask Serbia or Libya how defensive NATO is. Or Iraq & Afghanistan.
[/quote]

Not propaganda. Who "started it" in Libya and Serbia?

You believe Putin is LEGITIMATELY concerned that NATO will invade Russia. is that what you're telling us?

..
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