jrn19 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:37 pm
There shouldn’t be such a thing as quality losses. If you’re performing well in games I don’t in I that’s a fair component to incorporate, but QL’s shouldn’t be a metric and when you only have 1 win over a bad team, how you’ve performed in losses doesn’t matter, you’re not winning any of these games and so you should be dinged for that
Additionally, while all of ND’s losses could be described as “close” and you could argue they’ve played well in them…they haven’t really led for that long in any of them. They led for around 10 mins or so against Maryland, and then for <20 mins against OSU. So out of 180 mins, they’ve led for less than 20% of them. They’re in the games, but they’ve never looked anything but not quite as good.
A loss to MD = loss to NJIT?
I Agree 100%. I do incorporate "quality" losses into my poll. In fact, I would say right now, losing to MD, UVA, maybe even the top IVIES by a single goal, may be more impressive than beating a so called lesser team by multiple goals.
That's just simply the way I Feel this year especially, as we have in my opinion, only a FEW ELITE teams that losing a close game to should not ding your resume, very much.
GOBIGRED
Joewillie78
jrn19 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:37 pm
There shouldn’t be such a thing as quality losses. If you’re performing well in games I don’t in I that’s a fair component to incorporate, but QL’s shouldn’t be a metric and when you only have 1 win over a bad team, how you’ve performed in losses doesn’t matter, you’re not winning any of these games and so you should be dinged for that
Additionally, while all of ND’s losses could be described as “close” and you could argue they’ve played well in them…they haven’t really led for that long in any of them. They led for around 10 mins or so against Maryland, and then for <20 mins against OSU. So out of 180 mins, they’ve led for less than 20% of them. They’re in the games, but they’ve never looked anything but not quite as good.
A loss to MD = loss to NJIT?
I Agree 100%. I do incorporate "quality" losses into my poll. In fact, I would say right now, losing to MD, UVA, maybe even the top IVIES by a single goal, may be more impressive than beating a so called lesser team by multiple goals.
That's just simply the way I Feel this year especially, as we have in my opinion, only a FEW ELITE teams that losing a close game to should not ding your resume, very much.
GOBIGRED
Joewillie78
A single loss to a better team but one goal can be understandable but not losing 3 out of 4. Most coaches will say that if you play well and lose it is worse than playing poorly and winning, if you play well and still lose you have problems.
jrn19 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:37 pm
There shouldn’t be such a thing as quality losses. If you’re performing well in games I don’t in I that’s a fair component to incorporate, but QL’s shouldn’t be a metric and when you only have 1 win over a bad team, how you’ve performed in losses doesn’t matter, you’re not winning any of these games and so you should be dinged for that
Additionally, while all of ND’s losses could be described as “close” and you could argue they’ve played well in them…they haven’t really led for that long in any of them. They led for around 10 mins or so against Maryland, and then for <20 mins against OSU. So out of 180 mins, they’ve led for less than 20% of them. They’re in the games, but they’ve never looked anything but not quite as good.
A loss to MD = loss to NJIT?
I Agree 100%. I do incorporate "quality" losses into my poll. In fact, I would say right now, losing to MD, UVA, maybe even the top IVIES by a single goal, may be more impressive than beating a so called lesser team by multiple goals.
That's just simply the way I Feel this year especially, as we have in my opinion, only a FEW ELITE teams that losing a close game to should not ding your resume, very much.
GOBIGRED
Joewillie78
For me, losses come into account only after evaluating wins. In the case of "a loss to MD = a loss to NJIT" that would only come into play if two teams had equal quality wins. First, I evaluate number of losses. Those being equal, then the team with a loss to MD might get the nod over a team with a loss to NJIT. But that scenario is very unlikely to happen, or it would indicate that NJIT is a pretty good team this year. Overall, a "close loss" is never better than any win. To do so just opens up too many avenues for implicit bias. Teams like ND have ample opportunity to prove they can win games, and will be ranked accordingly if they do. And if they don't they aren't a good team.
You have to win games to get into the tournament, and you have to win games to stay in the tournament.
jrn19 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:37 pm
There shouldn’t be such a thing as quality losses. If you’re performing well in games I don’t in I that’s a fair component to incorporate, but QL’s shouldn’t be a metric and when you only have 1 win over a bad team, how you’ve performed in losses doesn’t matter, you’re not winning any of these games and so you should be dinged for that
Additionally, while all of ND’s losses could be described as “close” and you could argue they’ve played well in them…they haven’t really led for that long in any of them. They led for around 10 mins or so against Maryland, and then for <20 mins against OSU. So out of 180 mins, they’ve led for less than 20% of them. They’re in the games, but they’ve never looked anything but not quite as good.
A loss to MD = loss to NJIT?
It’s a loss. You don’t get credit for losses. You get credit for wins.
From 2 - 30 it's absolute insanity and you can make cases for many teams going up and down.
I do however think a loss to a top 20 team if close should not crush a team, especially if you compare it to teams that play poor teams and win. Teams that have the guts to play top teams should not be punished for it, and teams that play weak schedules should not be rewarded.
Last edited by xxxxxxx on Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jrn19 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:37 pm
There shouldn’t be such a thing as quality losses. If you’re performing well in games I don’t in I that’s a fair component to incorporate, but QL’s shouldn’t be a metric and when you only have 1 win over a bad team, how you’ve performed in losses doesn’t matter, you’re not winning any of these games and so you should be dinged for that
Additionally, while all of ND’s losses could be described as “close” and you could argue they’ve played well in them…they haven’t really led for that long in any of them. They led for around 10 mins or so against Maryland, and then for <20 mins against OSU. So out of 180 mins, they’ve led for less than 20% of them. They’re in the games, but they’ve never looked anything but not quite as good.
A loss to MD = loss to NJIT?
I Agree 100%. I do incorporate "quality" losses into my poll. In fact, I would say right now, losing to MD, UVA, maybe even the top IVIES by a single goal, may be more impressive than beating a so called lesser team by multiple goals.
That's just simply the way I Feel this year especially, as we have in my opinion, only a FEW ELITE teams that losing a close game to should not ding your resume, very much.
GOBIGRED
Joewillie78
For me, losses come into account only after evaluating wins. In the case of "a loss to MD = a loss to NJIT" that would only come into play if two teams had equal quality wins. First, I evaluate number of losses. Those being equal, then the team with a loss to MD might get the nod over a team with a loss to NJIT. But that scenario is very unlikely to happen, or it would indicate that NJIT is a pretty good team this year. Overall, a "close loss" is never better than any win. To do so just opens up too many avenues for implicit bias. Teams like ND have ample opportunity to prove they can win games, and will be ranked accordingly if they do. And if they don't they aren't a good team.
You have to win games to get into the tournament, and you have to win games to stay in the tournament.
you have to win the rpi game to get into the tournament. then you have to win games.
xxxxxxx wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 2:40 pm
From 2 - 30 it's absolute insanity and you can make cases for many teams going up and down.
I do however think a loss to a top 20 team if close should not crush a team, especially if you compare it to teams that play poor teams and win. Teams that have the guts to play top teams should not be punished for it, and teams that play weak schedules should not be rewarded.
Should be more of an art than science in evaluating these teams, and it's just too early. Generally, a few tough losses can be forgiven (Notre Dame), but you gotta start winning them at some point or see ya later (looking at you Penn State.)
To the point above, every D1 college coach wishes they could schedule the teams UMD and Penn State get. It's not that they don't "have the guts" it's that the blue chips of the world have no real incentive to play a 20-30 ranked team--no RPI boost, with only a potential ugly loss. Add in geography/budgets and it only gets harder for the mid tier programs who are usually less funded to begin with.
Maryland. 7-0 High Point, Loyola, Syracuse, Princeton, Notre Dame, Albany, Virginia Cornell. 6-0 UAlbany, Lehigh, Hobart, Ohio State, Penn State, Yale Princeton 5-1 Monmouth, Binghamton, Gtown, Rutgers, Penn /// L to Maryland Georgetown. 6-1 Hopkins, Penn, Notre Dame. Mt St Marys, Richmond, Utah /// L to Princeton Virginia. 6-1 Air Force, High Point, Towson, Syracuse, Hopkins, UNC /// L to Maryland Rutgers. 8-1 LIU, Marist, St Johns, Army, Loyola, Stony Brook, Lafayette, Hofstra /// L to Princeton Ohio State. 5-2 Detroit Mercy, Cleveland State, North Carolina, Harvard, Notre Dame /// L to Cornell, Denver UNC. 6-2 Richmond. Colgate, Brown, Hopkins, Denver, High Point /// L to Ohio State, Virginia Harvard 4-1 NJIT, Fairfield, Michigan, Brown /// L to Ohio State Penn. 3-2 Duke, Penn State, Villanova /// L to GTown, Princeton Yale. 3-2 Villanova, UMass, Denver. /// L to Penn State, Cornell Boston U. 6-0 Merrimack, Bryant, UMASS, Colgate, Bucknell, Holy Cross Lehigh 4-2 Navy, NJIT, Holy Cross, Army /// L to Hobart, Cornell Brown 5-2 Quinn, Vermont, Villanova, Providence, Stony Brook /// L to UNC, Harvard Jacksonville. 7-2 Duke, Mercer, Marquette, Denver, Air Force, Bellarmine, UMass Lowell /// L to Hopkins, Utah, Duke. 8-3 Robert Morris, Vermont, Manhattan, Delaware, High Point, Richmond, Towson /// L to Penn, Jacksonville, Loyola Denver. 4-4 Utah, Air Force, Cansius, Ohio State /// L to Duke, Jacksonville, UNC, Yale Army. 6-2 UMASS, Sienna, NJIT, Syracuse, Holy Cross, Lafayette /// L to Rutgers, Lehigh Michigan 7-2 Bellarmine, Detroit Mercy, Holy cross, Canisus, Cleveland State, Delaware /// L to Harvard, Notre Dame Delaware. 6-2 NJIT, MSM, St Josephs, Monmouth, Marist, Hopkins /// L to Duke, Michigan St. Joseph's 6-2 St. Bon, Penn State, Providence, Monmouth, Towson, MSM /// L to Delaware Bucknell. 5-2 Mercer, Robert Morris, St Johns, Marist, Binghamton. /// L to Boston U, Loyola Loyola. 3-4 Lafayette, Duke, Bucknell /// L to Maryland, Hopkins, Rutgers, Towson Dartmouth. 4-1 Bryant, Siena, Vermont., St Johns /// L to Merrimack Notre Dame. 2-3 Detroit Mercy, Michigan /// L to Georgetown, Maryland, Ohio State
-----------------------------------------
Also considered Hopkins. 4-5 Jacksonville, Towson, Loyola, Syracuse /// L to UNC, Georgetown, Virginia, Navy, Delaware Utah 3-3 Vermont, Marquette, Jacksonville. /// L to Denver, UMBC, Georgetown Villanova 4-3 Penn State, Fairfield, Hofstra, Drexel /// L to Yale, Brown, Penn Navy. 5-3 Mercer, Hofstra, Manhattan, Colgate, Hopkins /// L to High Point, Lehigh, MSM Stony brook. 5-3 Fairfield, Robert Morris, St Johns, LIU, UMass Lowell /// L to Rutgers, Brown, Syracuse High Point 4-4 Colgate, Navy, Bellarmine, Robert Morris /// L to Maryland, Virginia, Duke, UNC Fairfield 5-3. Wagner, Sacred Heart, Quinn, Binghamton, Providence /// L to Stony Brook, Villanova, Harvard Drexel 4-3 Albany, LIU, St Joes, Marquette /// L to UMBC, Lafayette, Villanova Richmond 4-3 Marist, Towson, St Bon, UMBC /// L to UNC, Duke, Gtown St Bonaventure. 6-2 Bellarmine, VMI, Hampton, Cleveland State, Marist /// L to St Joes, Richmond Towson 3-5 Mt St Marys, Loyola, UMBC /// L to Hopkins, Virginia, Richmond, St Joes, Duke Syracuse. 3-4 Holy Cross, Hobart, Stony Brook /// L to Maryland, Virginia, Army, Hopkins
Wheels wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:32 pm
I no longer even feel good about my Top 10 let alone anything 10-25. It's a train wreck for me after #7 or so.
Don't worry. I'll straighten you out...
rolldodge wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:33 amCornell. 6-0 UAlbany, Lehigh, Hobart, Ohio State, Penn State, Yale Princeton 5-1 Monmouth, Binghamton, Gtown, Rutgers, Penn /// L to Maryland
Roll, you're blinded by "undefeated" coupled with perennial power. Look at P'ton's wins vs. Cornell's. P'ton's are obviously better. As for their loss, it's a loss. To the #1 team. It's just a loss...
“I do not fear computers. I fear lack of them.” -Isaac Asimov
Wheels wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:32 pm
I no longer even feel good about my Top 10 let alone anything 10-25. It's a train wreck for me after #7 or so.
Don't worry. I'll straighten you out...
rolldodge wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:33 amCornell. 6-0 UAlbany, Lehigh, Hobart, Ohio State, Penn State, Yale Princeton 5-1 Monmouth, Binghamton, Gtown, Rutgers, Penn /// L to Maryland
Roll, you're blinded by "undefeated" coupled with perennial power. Look at P'ton's wins vs. Cornell's. P'ton's are obviously better. As for their loss, it's a loss. To the #1 team. It's just a loss...
I think you can make a very good argument for Princeton over Cornell. I did give the benefit of the doubt to the undefeated record. I also don't like that Princeton's defense gave up 20 goals.
I went with Cornell over Princeton because they are undefeated. Ivies will sort themselves out in the next couple of weeks. I have two Ivies over the erstwhile number two, who failed to give Maryland a game.
Wheels wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:32 pm
I no longer even feel good about my Top 10 let alone anything 10-25. It's a train wreck for me after #7 or so.
Don't worry. I'll straighten you out...
rolldodge wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:33 amCornell. 6-0 UAlbany, Lehigh, Hobart, Ohio State, Penn State, Yale Princeton 5-1 Monmouth, Binghamton, Gtown, Rutgers, Penn /// L to Maryland
Roll, you're blinded by "undefeated" coupled with perennial power. Look at P'ton's wins vs. Cornell's. P'ton's are obviously better. As for their loss, it's a loss. To the #1 team. It's just a loss...
I think you can make a very good argument for Princeton over Cornell. I did give the benefit of the doubt to the undefeated record. I also don't like that Princeton's defense gave up 20 goals.
I'm not disputing the rankings nor do I think Cornell should be #2 this week. However, the poll lists Princeton as #2 above Cornell, yet Cornell has 8 votes for #2 while Princeton has only 5. Is this result due to others who ranked Cornell much lower?
laxfan1313 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:35 pm
I'm not disputing the rankings nor do I think Cornell should be #2 this week. However, the poll lists Princeton as #2 above Cornell, yet Cornell has 8 votes for #2 while Princeton has only 5. Is this result due to others who ranked Cornell much lower?
Princeton was no lower than 3rd in any poll and Cornell had a few 4ths and I believe one 5th making Princeton's average position higher than Cornell's. I think this is the reason Princeton is 2nd and Cornell 3rd.
GOBIGRED
Joewillie78
