tech37 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:07 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:02 am
a fan wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:07 pm
DocBarrister wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:28 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:21 pm
a fan wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:26 pm
DocBarrister wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:16 pm
And you believe that?
Yes. Why else would he say as much publicly? To what end?
The door is open for peace, Doc. Only a fool or a war monger doesn't try and walk through that door..... you seem hell bent on shutting it.
He says all sorts of things, lying through his teeth...why would
anyone, especially anyone who has him on the run, allow him an opportunity to regroup and attack and disrupt again?
Of course there needs to be an ironclad agreement that the West will defend Ukraine in order for Ukraine to accept anything but the complete withdrawal of Russia.
There is no 'neutral' for Putin, who will not ever accept that Ukraine doesn't belong as part of Russia. and that means Kyiv and Odessa must be included.
Don't guarantee complete protection and no deal.
And denying Ukraine the opportunity to economically align with whoever they want?...FU, Putin.
That's the Ukrainian position. It should be ours, too.
+43.8 quadrillion
DocBarrister
Yeah, but you two sort of left this part out: what's YOUR plan to get Putin out of Ukraine? (you don't have one)
I don't think either of you are getting my point.......Remember the Cuban Missile Crisis? Anyone remember what Kennedy "gave" the Khrushchev to get us out of that mess?
Zelensky can "give" Putin things, that simply aren't real in any practical sense.....and yet are trophies for Putin to show his country as a "victory".
I think you're missing a different point. I'm not arguing that there aren't worthless "gives" that Putin can claim in his state media as victories.
It's that Putin isn't going to accept those until his military power is virtually spent and it is clear that he's lost. I don't think he's even close to being at that point.
On the other hand, what Putin would demand now, aren't worthless (not simply state propaganda) and would be a very real mistake to allow, not simply for this crisis but because it would mean that aggression works. And the Ukrainians aren't going to do those anyway.
So, no, I don't think there's a legitimate way to get Putin out until it's far more clear that his military foray has lost decisively.
"until his military power is virtually spent"
What on earth does that even mean? Are you referring to his ground troop invasion force alone? I sure hope so.
First, I obviously wish that Putin would leave immediately, just as I wish he'd never made these horrible decisions in the first place. But wishes don't make it so.
Second, what I mean is that Putin will need to come to the conclusion that he's made all the moves he can, expended all the resources he can, that would bring Ukraine into submission and be habitable and ruled by Russia and/or its proxy. That's not possible if he goes nuclear, but it is at least conceivably possible if he turns many of the cities to rubble. Obviously the latter is awful, but it's what the Ukrainians appear to be prepared to withstand.
But there are limits to Putin's capacities that are being quickly expended, especially as the Ukrainians progressively strike back at those capabilities.
And in 3 weeks Russia has already lost 50% of the soldiers it lost in 10 years of Afghanistan. More than we lost in 20 years of Iraq and Afghanistan. Body bags and limbs lost will begin to be obvious to the Russian public; it already is within the military itself.
I don't know how long it will take for Putin to conclude that his ambition is for nought, but it's quite clear from his public rants that he ain't there yet...doesn't look close to there.