All Things Russia & Ukraine

[MDlaxfan76]

France24 news is reporting tonight that thousands of men are fleeing Russia and crossing into Turkey to avoid the draft. I imagine that this news must be disturbing to those American right wingers who condemned those who fled into Canada to avoid the draft. Amirite?

What are you getting at here? As MD said earlier today, you can't see the picture inside a 1000 yard view. You realize it discredits the opinions you are trying to make because they are so demonstrably hyperbolic. How did someone who was raised and lived in NY for so long become such an extreme member of the left?

Joe

That sure is a stupid question. First of all, opposing conscription is a right wing ideal. Remember the talk about "freedom" from government oppression? That's a conservative view. If you were principled and had so much as half a brain you would have known that. But don't worry, I'll do my best not to over estimate you.

It's time for you to do some homework. Here is a primer on CONSERVATIVE opposition to the draft:

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/fe ... n-slavery/


Barry Goldwater
Ronald Reagan
Ron Paul
Russell Kirk

and there were many others.


As always, those of you from the radical far right are so limited in your intelligence, so unprincipled, so uninformed re historical truths, that it is just impossible to engage in a meaningful debate with people like you. Please, DO YOUR HOMEWORK before posting and showing the world how limited you are.

Read the information on the link. Thereafter, re-phrase your question and then I'll possibly answer it.

Useless to even engage with your histrionic hyperbolism. Here's a hint, spend a little less time in the many you forums you frequent and maybe find some other hobbies. Plenty of things to do up there in Lake Woebegone, I'm sure of it.

Joe

Welcome back Joe, I hope you stick around for awhile. That is not to say that i always agree with you but I respect all differences of opinions. Your opinion is unique.

However, Joe, I'd urge you to follow your own advice to yourself and not get engaged in the histrionics of others. Don't let yourself get too wound up. It's really good advice!

[cradleandshoot]

If Zelenskyy does not offer an escape route which Putin will accept, the US will eventually go to war in Ukraine, along with some or all of NATO.
That will provide an opportunity to see if the use of tactical nuclear weapons can be limited to the battle space.

I don't think this is the right frame. Zelenskyy needn't offer anything Putin "will accept". Putin's military needs to be defeated. Aggression can't be rewarded.

Your frame of reference will take us to war.

We and the rest of the West are already at war, but by proxy. It's important to win it decisively. There are immense consequences of not doing so.

If Putin decides to attack NATO in any way directly, he'll have made that escalation and his military will be utterly destroyed. If he goes nuclear, we should follow the playbook I suggested, providing an opportunity for the Russian military and people to revolt.

It will be a horror beyond words, but our restraint will pay enormous dividends.

Poland is already asking to send in ground forces...we need to be restrained at each step.

There is no winner or loser. Everyone has lost.
What's important is to end the carnage asap & not get mousetrapped like this again.
Don't give Russia (or China) the leverage to do this again.

+1000

MDLax....you and Doc seem to share the same view. This isn't some game where we need to shame Putin. That ship has sailed---he's already a global joke. But he's dangerous as all get out......get him out of the game, and put him out to pasture, where he can't cause any more trouble. I can assure you this will happen via his own people.

The game now is: end the war asap before it gets out of hand. Every day matters. Give Putin an offramp, and he'll take it.

If Ukraine plays the game you want them to play, who the F knows what Putin will do if backed into a corner like that. I have ZERO interest in finding out.

I don't believe that there's an off ramp remotely palatable to Putin at present that doesn't reward his aggression, and that would be a huge mistake. He and his military are going to need to take many more losses before he's ready to turn tail, much less be subject to removal by his people...gonna take awhile, awful as that is.

OS and a fan are spot on correct here. And no one is "rewarding his aggression." Even if that were the case, that would be a small price to pay rather than NATO and US becoming directly involved in an expanded war in Europe. The awful events in Ukraine would be dwarfed in comparison.

Negotiate a cease fire and neutrality conditions, let Putin leave, pull back from immediate brink of all-out war. That's the immediate "restraint" needed.

Wouldn't it be great if that's all it took?

I don't know what you guys are smoking, but Putin's not going to stop anytime soon with such an offer. He's created stakes that are so much larger than what some sort of 'neutrality' would give him.

Not that he shouldn't, but just that he won't...not until more of his military force is spent and decimated in return.

Why would Putin quit now?? When your buddy Mittens tried to hold BHOs feet to the fire about Putins Russia you do still remember that famous reply from BHO??? The 80s called Mitt, they want their foreign policy back. i guess if Mitt had treated that dumb ass statement from BHO the same way he treated all of the dumb ass statements from Trump he might have been elected POTUS. As per YOUR standards, Mittens chose to keep his mouth shut and suffer through being humiliated by BHO. Mittens could have buried BHO at that point in time. It is almost like you were whispering in Mitts ear... be the better man, don't defend what you just said, even if your right. If your not willing to stand for something then you will fall for anything.

[cradleandshoot]

France24 news is reporting tonight that thousands of men are fleeing Russia and crossing into Turkey to avoid the draft. I imagine that this news must be disturbing to those American right wingers who condemned those who fled into Canada to avoid the draft. Amirite?

What are you getting at here? As MD said earlier today, you can't see the picture inside a 1000 yard view. You realize it discredits the opinions you are trying to make because they are so demonstrably hyperbolic. How did someone who was raised and lived in NY for so long become such an extreme member of the left?

Joe

That sure is a stupid question. First of all, opposing conscription is a right wing ideal. Remember the talk about "freedom" from government oppression? That's a conservative view. If you were principled and had so much as half a brain you would have known that. But don't worry, I'll do my best not to over estimate you.

It's time for you to do some homework. Here is a primer on CONSERVATIVE opposition to the draft:

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/fe ... n-slavery/


Barry Goldwater
Ronald Reagan
Ron Paul
Russell Kirk

and there were many others.


As always, those of you from the radical far right are so limited in your intelligence, so unprincipled, so uninformed re historical truths, that it is just impossible to engage in a meaningful debate with people like you. Please, DO YOUR HOMEWORK before posting and showing the world how limited you are.

Read the information on the link. Thereafter, re-phrase your question and then I'll possibly answer it.

Useless to even engage with your histrionic hyperbolism. Here's a hint, spend a little less time in the many you forums you frequent and maybe find some other hobbies. Plenty of things to do up there in Lake Woebegone, I'm sure of it.

Joe

Welcome back Joe, I hope you stick around for awhile. That is not to say that i always agree with you but I respect all differences of opinions. Your opinion is unique.

However, Joe, I'd urge you to follow your own advice to yourself and not get engaged in the histrionics of others. Don't let yourself get too wound up. It's really good advice!

Because ALL the FLP folks on this forum are judging you by every word you say. They will snitch on you in a heartbeat once their sensitive nature is offended... They already got you in their cross hairs of FLP intolerance and hatred...

[MDlaxfan76]

If Zelenskyy does not offer an escape route which Putin will accept, the US will eventually go to war in Ukraine, along with some or all of NATO.
That will provide an opportunity to see if the use of tactical nuclear weapons can be limited to the battle space.

I don't think this is the right frame. Zelenskyy needn't offer anything Putin "will accept". Putin's military needs to be defeated. Aggression can't be rewarded.

Your frame of reference will take us to war.

We and the rest of the West are already at war, but by proxy. It's important to win it decisively. There are immense consequences of not doing so.

If Putin decides to attack NATO in any way directly, he'll have made that escalation and his military will be utterly destroyed. If he goes nuclear, we should follow the playbook I suggested, providing an opportunity for the Russian military and people to revolt.

It will be a horror beyond words, but our restraint will pay enormous dividends.

Poland is already asking to send in ground forces...we need to be restrained at each step.

There is no winner or loser. Everyone has lost.
What's important is to end the carnage asap & not get mousetrapped like this again.
Don't give Russia (or China) the leverage to do this again.

+1000

MDLax....you and Doc seem to share the same view. This isn't some game where we need to shame Putin. That ship has sailed---he's already a global joke. But he's dangerous as all get out......get him out of the game, and put him out to pasture, where he can't cause any more trouble. I can assure you this will happen via his own people.

The game now is: end the war asap before it gets out of hand. Every day matters. Give Putin an offramp, and he'll take it.

If Ukraine plays the game you want them to play, who the F knows what Putin will do if backed into a corner like that. I have ZERO interest in finding out.

I don't believe that there's an off ramp remotely palatable to Putin at present that doesn't reward his aggression, and that would be a huge mistake. He and his military are going to need to take many more losses before he's ready to turn tail, much less be subject to removal by his people...gonna take awhile, awful as that is.

OS and a fan are spot on correct here. And no one is "rewarding his aggression." Even if that were the case, that would be a small price to pay rather than NATO and US becoming directly involved in an expanded war in Europe. The awful events in Ukraine would be dwarfed in comparison.

Negotiate a cease fire and neutrality conditions, let Putin leave, pull back from immediate brink of all-out war. That's the immediate "restraint" needed.

Wouldn't it be great if that's all it took?

I don't know what you guys are smoking, but Putin's not going to stop anytime soon with such an offer. He's created stakes that are so much larger than what some sort of 'neutrality' would give him.

Not that he shouldn't, but just that he won't...not until more of his military force is spent and decimated in return.

Why would Putin quit now?? When your buddy Mittens tried to hold BHOs feet to the fire about Putins Russia you do still remember that famous reply from BHO??? The 80s called Mitt, they want their foreign policy back. i guess if Mitt had treated that dumb ass statement from BHO the same way he treated all of the dumb ass statements from Trump he might have been elected POTUS. As per YOUR standards, Mittens chose to keep his mouth shut and suffer through being humiliated by BHO. Mittens could have buried BHO at that point in time. It is almost like you were whispering in Mitts ear... be the better man, don't defend what you just said, even if your right.

Huh?

I agree, Putin isn't going to pull back until his military forces are much more spent, may need to be decimated. Gonna take time and further economic choking. But also is going to take the defeat of his military.

Otherwise, it's all emboldening not just to Putin, but China and any other autocracy with nukes as well.

But we need to restrain ourselves at each step in doing so. Don't return chemical/biological or nukes with like kind, simply announce the pending decimation of the Russian capabilities per Ukraine if they don't stand down or surrender and then do so.

[MDlaxfan76]

France24 news is reporting tonight that thousands of men are fleeing Russia and crossing into Turkey to avoid the draft. I imagine that this news must be disturbing to those American right wingers who condemned those who fled into Canada to avoid the draft. Amirite?

What are you getting at here? As MD said earlier today, you can't see the picture inside a 1000 yard view. You realize it discredits the opinions you are trying to make because they are so demonstrably hyperbolic. How did someone who was raised and lived in NY for so long become such an extreme member of the left?

Joe

That sure is a stupid question. First of all, opposing conscription is a right wing ideal. Remember the talk about "freedom" from government oppression? That's a conservative view. If you were principled and had so much as half a brain you would have known that. But don't worry, I'll do my best not to over estimate you.

It's time for you to do some homework. Here is a primer on CONSERVATIVE opposition to the draft:

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/fe ... n-slavery/


Barry Goldwater
Ronald Reagan
Ron Paul
Russell Kirk

and there were many others.


As always, those of you from the radical far right are so limited in your intelligence, so unprincipled, so uninformed re historical truths, that it is just impossible to engage in a meaningful debate with people like you. Please, DO YOUR HOMEWORK before posting and showing the world how limited you are.

Read the information on the link. Thereafter, re-phrase your question and then I'll possibly answer it.

Useless to even engage with your histrionic hyperbolism. Here's a hint, spend a little less time in the many you forums you frequent and maybe find some other hobbies. Plenty of things to do up there in Lake Woebegone, I'm sure of it.

Joe

Welcome back Joe, I hope you stick around for awhile. That is not to say that i always agree with you but I respect all differences of opinions. Your opinion is unique.

However, Joe, I'd urge you to follow your own advice to yourself and not get engaged in the histrionics of others. Don't let yourself get too wound up. It's really good advice!

Because ALL the FLP folks on this forum are judging you by every word you say. They will snitch on you in a heartbeat once their sensitive nature is offended... They already got you in their cross hairs of FLP intolerance and hatred...

says one practicer of the histrionic arts...

no, it's just not great for Joe to get too wound up. When he does so, he has trouble not blowing past the rules for the forum. He's too valuable to the lax discussions to lose him to his temper on the Politics threads. Does no one any good.

[JoeMauer89]

Useless to even engage with your histrionic hyperbolism. Here's a hint, spend a little less time in the many you forums you frequent and maybe find some other hobbies. Plenty of things to do up there in Lake Woebegone, I'm sure of it.

Joe

More emotionalism. Do your homework kid, learn something. Elevate yourself to the level reached by most people here so that we could possibly have a meaningful exchange. Heck even Sussex surpasses you in political knowledge.

Another hyperbolic statement. Back to your regular scheduled programming. Incapable of change.

Joe

[JoeMauer89]

France24 news is reporting tonight that thousands of men are fleeing Russia and crossing into Turkey to avoid the draft. I imagine that this news must be disturbing to those American right wingers who condemned those who fled into Canada to avoid the draft. Amirite?

What are you getting at here? As MD said earlier today, you can't see the picture inside a 1000 yard view. You realize it discredits the opinions you are trying to make because they are so demonstrably hyperbolic. How did someone who was raised and lived in NY for so long become such an extreme member of the left?

Joe

That sure is a stupid question. First of all, opposing conscription is a right wing ideal. Remember the talk about "freedom" from government oppression? That's a conservative view. If you were principled and had so much as half a brain you would have known that. But don't worry, I'll do my best not to over estimate you.

It's time for you to do some homework. Here is a primer on CONSERVATIVE opposition to the draft:

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/fe ... n-slavery/


Barry Goldwater
Ronald Reagan
Ron Paul
Russell Kirk

and there were many others.


As always, those of you from the radical far right are so limited in your intelligence, so unprincipled, so uninformed re historical truths, that it is just impossible to engage in a meaningful debate with people like you. Please, DO YOUR HOMEWORK before posting and showing the world how limited you are.

Read the information on the link. Thereafter, re-phrase your question and then I'll possibly answer it.

Useless to even engage with your histrionic hyperbolism. Here's a hint, spend a little less time in the many you forums you frequent and maybe find some other hobbies. Plenty of things to do up there in Lake Woebegone, I'm sure of it.

Joe

Welcome back Joe, I hope you stick around for awhile. That is not to say that i always agree with you but I respect all differences of opinions. Your opinion is unique.

However, Joe, I'd urge you to follow your own advice to yourself and not get engaged in the histrionics of others. Don't let yourself get too wound up. It's really good advice!

That's my goal this time around. I realize that I am not dealing with someone who can see nuance when it comes to anything politics-related. A real minority on this forum. Happy St Patty's Day!

Joe

[tech37]

If Zelenskyy does not offer an escape route which Putin will accept, the US will eventually go to war in Ukraine, along with some or all of NATO.
That will provide an opportunity to see if the use of tactical nuclear weapons can be limited to the battle space.

I don't think this is the right frame. Zelenskyy needn't offer anything Putin "will accept". Putin's military needs to be defeated. Aggression can't be rewarded.

Your frame of reference will take us to war.

We and the rest of the West are already at war, but by proxy. It's important to win it decisively. There are immense consequences of not doing so.

If Putin decides to attack NATO in any way directly, he'll have made that escalation and his military will be utterly destroyed. If he goes nuclear, we should follow the playbook I suggested, providing an opportunity for the Russian military and people to revolt.

It will be a horror beyond words, but our restraint will pay enormous dividends.

Poland is already asking to send in ground forces...we need to be restrained at each step.

There is no winner or loser. Everyone has lost.
What's important is to end the carnage asap & not get mousetrapped like this again.
Don't give Russia (or China) the leverage to do this again.

+1000

MDLax....you and Doc seem to share the same view. This isn't some game where we need to shame Putin. That ship has sailed---he's already a global joke. But he's dangerous as all get out......get him out of the game, and put him out to pasture, where he can't cause any more trouble. I can assure you this will happen via his own people.

The game now is: end the war asap before it gets out of hand. Every day matters. Give Putin an offramp, and he'll take it.

If Ukraine plays the game you want them to play, who the F knows what Putin will do if backed into a corner like that. I have ZERO interest in finding out.

I don't believe that there's an off ramp remotely palatable to Putin at present that doesn't reward his aggression, and that would be a huge mistake. He and his military are going to need to take many more losses before he's ready to turn tail, much less be subject to removal by his people...gonna take awhile, awful as that is.

OS and a fan are spot on correct here. And no one is "rewarding his aggression." Even if that were the case, that would be a small price to pay rather than NATO and US becoming directly involved in an expanded war in Europe. The awful events in Ukraine would be dwarfed in comparison.

Negotiate a cease fire and neutrality conditions, let Putin leave, pull back from immediate brink of all-out war. That's the immediate "restraint" needed.

Wouldn't it be great if that's all it took?
It's the only logical path. So far, it looks as though Biden and west are treading lightly in order to allow this to happen.

I don't know what you guys are smoking, but Putin's not going to stop anytime soon with such an offer. He's created stakes that are so much larger than what some sort of 'neutrality' would give him.

Not that he shouldn't, but just that he won't...not until more of his military force is spent and decimated in return.
It's obvious, based on his military's performance in Ukraine, that Putin's ability to invade further is limited and he knows it. His ground forces aren't relevant but his air force, missile capabilities, and nucs certainly are. So where does that leave your hawkish desire to escalate the conflict? Bomb SAM installations, missile batteries, and air fields within Russia?

Question is, what are you smoking?

The longer this continues, the chance something really unexpected and catastrophic occurs.

[MDlaxfan76]

France24 news is reporting tonight that thousands of men are fleeing Russia and crossing into Turkey to avoid the draft. I imagine that this news must be disturbing to those American right wingers who condemned those who fled into Canada to avoid the draft. Amirite?

What are you getting at here? As MD said earlier today, you can't see the picture inside a 1000 yard view. You realize it discredits the opinions you are trying to make because they are so demonstrably hyperbolic. How did someone who was raised and lived in NY for so long become such an extreme member of the left?

Joe

That sure is a stupid question. First of all, opposing conscription is a right wing ideal. Remember the talk about "freedom" from government oppression? That's a conservative view. If you were principled and had so much as half a brain you would have known that. But don't worry, I'll do my best not to over estimate you.

It's time for you to do some homework. Here is a primer on CONSERVATIVE opposition to the draft:

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/fe ... n-slavery/


Barry Goldwater
Ronald Reagan
Ron Paul
Russell Kirk

and there were many others.


As always, those of you from the radical far right are so limited in your intelligence, so unprincipled, so uninformed re historical truths, that it is just impossible to engage in a meaningful debate with people like you. Please, DO YOUR HOMEWORK before posting and showing the world how limited you are.

Read the information on the link. Thereafter, re-phrase your question and then I'll possibly answer it.

Useless to even engage with your histrionic hyperbolism. Here's a hint, spend a little less time in the many you forums you frequent and maybe find some other hobbies. Plenty of things to do up there in Lake Woebegone, I'm sure of it.

Joe

Welcome back Joe, I hope you stick around for awhile. That is not to say that i always agree with you but I respect all differences of opinions. Your opinion is unique.

However, Joe, I'd urge you to follow your own advice to yourself and not get engaged in the histrionics of others. Don't let yourself get too wound up. It's really good advice!

That's my goal this time around. I realize that I am not dealing with someone who can see nuance when it comes to anything politics-related. A real minority on this forum. Happy St Patty's Day!

Joe

Same to you, Joe!
Corned beef, bolded cabbage, potatoes, onions, carrots etc dinner for us tonight...and maybe a couple of pints.

And you're right, nuance seems to be missing all too often in a few posters, and discussions are a bit fruitless...but most posters really are trying to both listen and explain their own views...which evolve as they listen and learn and think.

[DocBarrister]

It is truly amazing how dated this three-week old article from Newsweek reads. The article discusses how Putin has never lost a war and how Russia was likely to “decapitate” the Ukrainian government and occupy Kyiv in a few days.

Crucially, the article also discusses how U.S. intelligence did not share President Joe Biden’s optimism that Russia’s invasion would turn into a quagmire for Putin. Turns out that President Biden was correct.

Biden, in his remarks the day the invasion began, said he believes Putin may have brought himself a world of trouble by invading Ukraine. "History has shown time and again how swift gains in territory give way to grinding occupation, acts of mass civil disobedience and strategic dead ends," he said. And in fact, thousands of Ukrainian civilians have been training as part of newly formed "territorial defense organizations" set up in order to resist the Russians.

But U.S. intelligence officials privately do not share Biden's optimism about "mass disobedience." One official who spoke to Newsweek on background because he is not authorized to speak on the record said, "After the government in Kyiv is dismantled, there will be no opposition within Ukraine for us to support militarily."

His pessimism is rooted in Putin's past behavior, most notably when he presided over a scorched earth campaign to brutally put down an insurgency in Chechnya more than 20 years ago. He says, "It's not realistic to mount an opposition campaign. [Putin] does not value human life the same way that the free world does, hence [Russian troops] will eradicate any opposition en masse."

Indeed, Putin's history as a commander in chief of Russia's military shows that there may be reason to doubt Biden's optimism that Ukraine will turn into a quagmire for Moscow.

https://www.newsweek.com/2022/03/11/put ... html?amp=1

Biden was right, and it is now Putin who looks like a fool.

DocBarrister

[JoeMauer89]

France24 news is reporting tonight that thousands of men are fleeing Russia and crossing into Turkey to avoid the draft. I imagine that this news must be disturbing to those American right wingers who condemned those who fled into Canada to avoid the draft. Amirite?

What are you getting at here? As MD said earlier today, you can't see the picture inside a 1000 yard view. You realize it discredits the opinions you are trying to make because they are so demonstrably hyperbolic. How did someone who was raised and lived in NY for so long become such an extreme member of the left?

Joe

That sure is a stupid question. First of all, opposing conscription is a right wing ideal. Remember the talk about "freedom" from government oppression? That's a conservative view. If you were principled and had so much as half a brain you would have known that. But don't worry, I'll do my best not to over estimate you.

It's time for you to do some homework. Here is a primer on CONSERVATIVE opposition to the draft:

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/fe ... n-slavery/


Barry Goldwater
Ronald Reagan
Ron Paul
Russell Kirk

and there were many others.


As always, those of you from the radical far right are so limited in your intelligence, so unprincipled, so uninformed re historical truths, that it is just impossible to engage in a meaningful debate with people like you. Please, DO YOUR HOMEWORK before posting and showing the world how limited you are.

Read the information on the link. Thereafter, re-phrase your question and then I'll possibly answer it.

Useless to even engage with your histrionic hyperbolism. Here's a hint, spend a little less time in the many you forums you frequent and maybe find some other hobbies. Plenty of things to do up there in Lake Woebegone, I'm sure of it.

Joe

Welcome back Joe, I hope you stick around for awhile. That is not to say that i always agree with you but I respect all differences of opinions. Your opinion is unique.

However, Joe, I'd urge you to follow your own advice to yourself and not get engaged in the histrionics of others. Don't let yourself get too wound up. It's really good advice!

That's my goal this time around. I realize that I am not dealing with someone who can see nuance when it comes to anything politics-related. A real minority on this forum. Happy St Patty's Day!

Joe

Same to you, Joe!
Corned beef, bolded cabbage, potatoes, onions, carrots etc dinner for us tonight...and maybe a couple of pints.

And you're right, nuance seems to be missing all too often in a few posters, and discussions are a bit fruitless...but most posters really are trying to both listen and explain their own views...which evolve as they listen and learn and think.

Enjoy! Headed to West Palm Beach later today for a bachelor party this weekend. Looking forward to it!

Joe

[MDlaxfan76]

If Zelenskyy does not offer an escape route which Putin will accept, the US will eventually go to war in Ukraine, along with some or all of NATO.
That will provide an opportunity to see if the use of tactical nuclear weapons can be limited to the battle space.

I don't think this is the right frame. Zelenskyy needn't offer anything Putin "will accept". Putin's military needs to be defeated. Aggression can't be rewarded.

Your frame of reference will take us to war.

We and the rest of the West are already at war, but by proxy. It's important to win it decisively. There are immense consequences of not doing so.

If Putin decides to attack NATO in any way directly, he'll have made that escalation and his military will be utterly destroyed. If he goes nuclear, we should follow the playbook I suggested, providing an opportunity for the Russian military and people to revolt.

It will be a horror beyond words, but our restraint will pay enormous dividends.

Poland is already asking to send in ground forces...we need to be restrained at each step.

There is no winner or loser. Everyone has lost.
What's important is to end the carnage asap & not get mousetrapped like this again.
Don't give Russia (or China) the leverage to do this again.

+1000

MDLax....you and Doc seem to share the same view. This isn't some game where we need to shame Putin. That ship has sailed---he's already a global joke. But he's dangerous as all get out......get him out of the game, and put him out to pasture, where he can't cause any more trouble. I can assure you this will happen via his own people.

The game now is: end the war asap before it gets out of hand. Every day matters. Give Putin an offramp, and he'll take it.

If Ukraine plays the game you want them to play, who the F knows what Putin will do if backed into a corner like that. I have ZERO interest in finding out.

I don't believe that there's an off ramp remotely palatable to Putin at present that doesn't reward his aggression, and that would be a huge mistake. He and his military are going to need to take many more losses before he's ready to turn tail, much less be subject to removal by his people...gonna take awhile, awful as that is.

OS and a fan are spot on correct here. And no one is "rewarding his aggression." Even if that were the case, that would be a small price to pay rather than NATO and US becoming directly involved in an expanded war in Europe. The awful events in Ukraine would be dwarfed in comparison.

Negotiate a cease fire and neutrality conditions, let Putin leave, pull back from immediate brink of all-out war. That's the immediate "restraint" needed.

Wouldn't it be great if that's all it took?
It's the only logical path. So far, it looks as though Biden and west are treading lightly in order to allow this to happen.

I don't know what you guys are smoking, but Putin's not going to stop anytime soon with such an offer. He's created stakes that are so much larger than what some sort of 'neutrality' would give him.

Not that he shouldn't, but just that he won't...not until more of his military force is spent and decimated in return.
It's obvious, based on his military's performance in Ukraine, that Putin's ability to invade further is limited and he knows it. His ground forces aren't relevant but his air force, missile capabilities, and nucs certainly are. So where does that leave your hawkish desire to escalate the conflict? Bomb SAM installations, missile batteries, and air fields within Russia?

Question is, what are you smoking?

The longer this continues, the chance something really unexpected and catastrophic occurs.

I must not be explaining my views well. I'm not asking us to escalate, nor NATO to escalate...but I am in favor of providing the Ukrainians the resources to win, to defeat and push back the low morale Russian forces.

I don't think there will be anything close to a mutually acceptable settlement until then.

Do I think that will require the Ukrainians to strike Russian territory? Maybe. But the start is the destruction of the artillery batteries outside the Ukrainian cities lobbing dumb bombs at civilian areas. Drones and javelins are key tools to do so.

Yes, the Ukrainians need various air defense systems, both to contest the skies but also to shield from missiles (more sophisticated air defenses).

Do the Ukrainians also need to strike the set off Russian capabilities? maybe. Certainly they should have anti-ship weapons to contest the attack from the sea, probably need to be able to strike Russian missile sites within a couple hundred miles of Ukraine. But that's a second phase, may not be necessary at all.

First step is to destroy the artillery batteries, armored forces, etc in Ukraine. Keep knocking down planes and helos.

But I'm also saying that we should be prepared to step in if chemical/biological or nukes are deployed. We have the capabilities to rapidly destroy all of Russia's immediate conventional capabilities...give an ultimatum to put down their weapons and leave or surrender or else that will be unleashed. I think the Russian military at that point will not fight, having already spent themselves to no avail. That's already beginning to happen in small pockets, but it's super early. But if they do continue to fight, decimate those fighting and their capabilities.

Don't return fire with chemical/bio or nukes, but decimate the conventional. Don't make this a fight against the Russian people, just those actually attacking.

Restraint.

[dislaxxic]

I'm hearing in media that Zelenskyy is, in fact, holding out a pledge of neutrality to offer the off-ramp Putin needs to stop this. Anyone else hearing that?

What else, besides such a pledge, will it take?

..

[MDlaxfan76]

I'm hearing in media that Zelenskyy is, in fact, holding out a pledge of neutrality to offer the off-ramp Putin needs to stop this. Anyone else hearing that?

What else, besides such a pledge, will it take?

..

I'm hearing the same thing...again, at every step, Zelenskyy has signaled a preference to negotiate, a preference for peace. He needs to do that, so as to earn the Ukrainian people's trust...while urging them to go through hell to protect their families, their home, their freedom.

He said something very intriguing yesterday, I think an oblique way of saying that the UN is toothless in such a situation (or a pandemic) and that a new international org is necessary...meaning that he may not need NATO...instead let's form a broader coalition of security protection. 24 hour readiness response. Sidesteps any pledge to not join NATO.

But IMO, Putin won't stop until his military forces are spent or thoroughly defeated.

[DocBarrister]

I'm hearing in media that Zelenskyy is, in fact, holding out a pledge of neutrality to offer the off-ramp Putin needs to stop this. Anyone else hearing that?

What else, besides such a pledge, will it take?

..

I'm hearing the same thing...again, at every step, Zelenskyy has signaled a preference to negotiate, a preference for peace. He needs to do that, so as to earn the Ukrainian people's trust...while urging them to go through hell to protect their families, their home, their freedom.

He said something very intriguing yesterday, I think an oblique way of saying that the UN is toothless in such a situation (or a pandemic) and that a new international org is necessary...meaning that he may not need NATO...instead let's form a broader coalition of security protection. 24 hour readiness response. Sidesteps any pledge to not join NATO.

But IMO, Putin won't stop until his military forces are spent or thoroughly defeated.

There needs to be a global diplomatic, economic, and military alliance between only nations that are democracies and which protect human rights. No such organization has ever existed. If Biden wants an enduring foreign policy legacy, that should be it.

Notably, there would be no room in such an organization for Russia, China, or Saudi Arabia, nor for even U.S. allies such as Jordan or Turkey.

An alliance of the world’s democracies would include much of Europe, parts of Central America and South America, South Korea, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, and other nations (maybe India).

It would be anchored by the United States, of course, unless the Trump Cult succeeds in turning us into the most powerful fascist state the world has ever seen.

DocBarrister

[Kismet]

When Russia invaded Ukraine, crude oil was $99 a barrel. Today, it's fallen back down to $99 barrel.
The day Russia invaded, we were all paying $3.61 at the pump on average. Today, we are paying an average of $4.30.

Knowing that there is a lag between commodity price and pump price, this does not seem right if it's still the case.

[JoeMauer89]

I'm hearing in media that Zelenskyy is, in fact, holding out a pledge of neutrality to offer the off-ramp Putin needs to stop this. Anyone else hearing that?

What else, besides such a pledge, will it take?

..

I'm hearing the same thing...again, at every step, Zelenskyy has signaled a preference to negotiate, a preference for peace. He needs to do that, so as to earn the Ukrainian people's trust...while urging them to go through hell to protect their families, their home, their freedom.

He said something very intriguing yesterday, I think an oblique way of saying that the UN is toothless in such a situation (or a pandemic) and that a new international org is necessary...meaning that he may not need NATO...instead let's form a broader coalition of security protection. 24 hour readiness response. Sidesteps any pledge to not join NATO.

But IMO, Putin won't stop until his military forces are spent or thoroughly defeated.

There needs to be a global diplomatic, economic, and military alliance between only nations that are democracies and which protect human rights. No such organization has ever existed. If Biden wants an enduring foreign policy legacy, that should be it.

Notably, there would be no room in such an organization for Russia, China, or Saudi Arabia, nor for even U.S. allies such as Jordan or Turkey.

An alliance of the world’s democracies would include much of Europe, parts of Central America and South America, South Korea, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, and other nations (maybe India).

It would be anchored by the United States, of course, unless the Trump Cult succeeds in turning us into the most powerful fascist state the world has ever seen.

DocBarrister

Doc,

The last sentence is utterly reprehensible, for all the whining about trolling on this site you throw around the term "Facist" fast and loose. It's sad because you are talking about the country that YOU live in. You don't like it anymore then go live in South Korea. In these past four months you have done nothing but become even MORE DIVISIVE in your rhetoric. It's a joke at this point, you cannot be taken seriously at this point. Take a step back.

Joe

[CU88]

I don't believe that there's an off ramp remotely palatable to Putin at present that doesn't reward his aggression, and that would be a huge mistake. He and his military are going to need to take many more losses before he's ready to turn tail, much less be subject to removal by his people...gonna take awhile, awful as that is.

Well, it's obviously just my opinion, but I think you're full on crispy-crackers if you think Putin is going to leave in defeat. Only chance of that happening is if he's taken out by some former KGB agent...poison or something. Otherwise, he's just going to get more and more aggressive with his targeting.

Otherwise, you gotta give him something. And again, imho, that something is pledged neutrality of Ukraine, and a denial of NATO. That's enough, I think.

Putin can go home claiming victory. And NO ONE will F with Ukraine anymore. And that deal costs NOTHING.

Putin reports to no-one, nor does he need to keep Russians happy to stay in power, does he care what they think? Sanctions need a very long time to have the impact needed for regime change.

As he gets appeased, what do you seen him doing with Ukraine? Do you really think that he 100% leaves all Ukraine if he is given your offered "off ramp"?

I think that Putin will only accept 3 levels of conclusion to this invasion: complete takeover of Ukraine, 50% takeover of Ukraine(until next time...) or war with NATO.

You are right, it is all in the hands of Ukraine: fight and lose their country, appease Putin and be his complain(lose their country) or drag NATO into this and defeat Putin on a larger scale.

I think that NATO has just been waiting for Putin to die, maybe another 10 years to go naturally? The humanitarian crisis with millions of refugees is The Problem for NATO/EU, wait until next winter when they all need proper housing. Putin has seen that the best way to destabilize any country/region is an influx of refugees; that causes the internal strife he wants to see, so he can then expand his boundaries.

[Brooklyn]

Good lord, you do realize that the "declaration" was not a free election?

You're out of your gourd, Brooklyn, with your eagerness to pretend equivalence with Ukraine's free election and the joint acceptance of such by the former Soviet Union and the West, and this taking of territory by Russian incursion. The separatists in those regions killed those who were not interested in realignment with Russia...then declared "independence". Not free, not a majority of a darn thing. Not accepted by anybody except Russia and its acolytes.

You probably think that the US owes reparations to the plantation/slave owners???

Sorry pal but you're out of your gourd. Facts are what they are. The people of Donbas (the majority of whom identify as Russian) declared their freedom and today call themselves republics. Russia recognized their government which is their right to do just as tRump recognized and negotiated with the Taliban even though Bush puppet Ashraf Ghani was still in power. While this does not justify Putin's incursion into the rest of Ukrainian territory he is free to help that specific region to keep away their army from the indy republics.

Whatever the case, it is none of our goddamn business. We have enough problems with cops killing innocent people every week and with Mafia dons spreading drugs which kill thousands of people every year. Let's end the holocaust here and all other problems before we venture overseas to solve other people's problems.

[Brooklyn]

Useless to even engage with your histrionic hyperbolism. Here's a hint, spend a little less time in the many you forums you frequent and maybe find some other hobbies. Plenty of things to do up there in Lake Woebegone, I'm sure of it.

Joe

More emotionalism. Do your homework kid, learn something. Elevate yourself to the level reached by most people here so that we could possibly have a meaningful exchange. Heck even Sussex surpasses you in political knowledge.

Another hyperbolic statement. Back to your regular scheduled programming. Incapable of change.

Joe

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