All Things Russia & Ukraine

[old salt]

We've been meddling in Ukraine's internal politics since 2004. We engineered 2 revolutions, 2 regime changes, trained & equipped their proxy army & encouraged them to seek membership in NATO & the UN.
After they did all that, Putin reacted as he said he would. Then we feign surprise & tell our Ukrainian proxies there's nothing more we can do.
Do you think our policy in that part of the world since the end of the Cold War might have something to do with what is happening now ?
You are like the snake handler who blames the snake when it bites him.

How does this equate to a guy bombing maternity wards of hospitals? Rolling tanks on the ground into their country and trying to assassinate their democratically elected leader?
I never made that equivalency, you are. I've said that Putin is the most dangerous human being since Hitler & he should be dragged into the ICC if his people don't kill him first. Is that not dramatic enough ?
Engineered-this is incongruous with your argument that they’ve proven their self determination unless, which would be consistent with other political arguments that you’ve made, you don’t believe that voting has any value, only war, in proving self determination.
I said they have not demonstrated their nationalism, reduced their corruption, or fought for their independence, until now.
Their status as a nation is an accident of history, just as Belarus, Georgia & all the other former SSR's are. Maybe Zelensky will go down in history as their Washington, Bismark & Churchill.

So you are going to use constant innuendo but try to leave room to have plausible deniability or do you not see the string of arguments you make in their entirety over a period of time and volume?
I see no obligation for the US to determine the fate of former component parts of Russia & the USSR, or to meddle in their internal politics. I disagreed with NATO membership for the Baltic states & earlier NATO membership for any Warsaw Pact members other than E Germany when unified. I felt they should follow the example of Finland, Sweden & Austria.

They reduced their corruption heavily over the prior administration and held their ground against our president meddling in their sovereignty.
Zelensky's only been in office less than 3 years. His predecessor is facing corruption based treason charges. That is the leader we welcomed after the last regime change which we supported. Corruption reduction had yet to be validated to a level acceptable for EU membership. Trump did not meddle in their sovereignty. After the govt of Ukraine leaked info damaging to his 2016 campaign, he delayed one shipment of military aid for a few weeks, which Biden also did twice in his first year in office. It was also Biden who when VP demanded they replace specific govt officials before extending economic aid.

So America’s sovereignty is a bogus mistake? England still should control us?
We fought 2 wars with England to win, then retain our independence. Ukraine is now fighting their first.

Boy I may disagree with some, let’s use Brooklyn as an example, but I find a lot of honor in his direct approach to discussion…
I've held this position since the USSR came apart in 1991 & stated it when it was first raised on LP in 2017 after Russia annexed Crimea.

None of the above means I approve of Putin's actions re Ukraine or that I hope Russia prevails in this senseless, criminal war.
imho -- Putin is destroying both Russia & Ukraine.

[Typical Lax Dad]

We've been meddling in Ukraine's internal politics since 2004. We engineered 2 revolutions, 2 regime changes, trained & equipped their proxy army & encouraged them to seek membership in NATO & the UN.
After they did all that, Putin reacted as he said he would. Then we feign surprise & tell our Ukrainian proxies there's nothing more we can do.
Do you think our policy in that part of the world since the end of the Cold War might have something to do with what is happening now ?
You are like the snake handler who blames the snake when it bites him.

How does this equate to a guy bombing maternity wards of hospitals? Rolling tanks on the ground into their country and trying to assassinate their democratically elected leader?
I never made that equivalency, you are. I've said that Putin is the most dangerous human being since Hitler & he should be dragged into the ICC if his people don't kill him first. Is that not dramatic enough ?
Engineered-this is incongruous with your argument that they’ve proven their self determination unless, which would be consistent with other political arguments that you’ve made, you don’t believe that voting has any value, only war, in proving self determination.
I said they have not demonstrated their nationalism, reduced their corruption, or fought for their independence, until now.
Their status as a nation is an accident of history, just as Belarus, Georgia & all the other former SSR's are. Maybe Zelensky will go down in history as their Washington, Bismark & Churchill.

So you are going to use constant innuendo but try to leave room to have plausible deniability or do you not see the string of arguments you make in their entirety over a period of time and volume?
I see no obligation for the US to determine the fate of former component parts of Russia & the USSR, or to meddle in their internal politics. I disagreed with NATO membership for the Baltic states & earlier NATO membership for any Warsaw Pact members other than E Germany when unified. I felt they should follow the example of Finland, Sweden & Austria.

They reduced their corruption heavily over the prior administration and held their ground against our president meddling in their sovereignty.
Zelensky's only been in office less than 3 years. His predecessor is facing corruption based treason charges. That is the leader we welcomed after the last regime change which we supported. Corruption reduction had yet to be validated to a level acceptable for EU membership. Trump did not meddle in their sovereignty. After the govt of Ukraine leaked info damaging to his 2016 campaign, he delayed one shipment of military aid for a few weeks, which Biden also did twice in his first year in office. It was also Biden who when VP demanded they replace specific govt officials before extending economic aid.

So America’s sovereignty is a bogus mistake? England still should control us?
We fought 2 wars with England to win, then retain our independence. Ukraine is now fighting their first.

Boy I may disagree with some, let’s use Brooklyn as an example, but I find a lot of honor in his direct approach to discussion…
I've held this position since the USSR came apart in 1991 & stated it when it was first raised on LP in 2017 after Russia annexed Crimea.

None of the above means I approve of Putin's actions re Ukraine or that I hope Russia prevails in this senseless, criminal war.
imho -- Putin is destroying both Russia & Ukraine.

Who did Biden want to see go on TV and make basically fraudulent political statements before releasing the congress approved aid?

[old salt]

It's our fault that Putin is a snake that bites...
It's our fault if we stick our hand in his den & he bites us.

And yet, we were told again and again and again that Russia wasn't actually dangerous.
...because they have such a small GDP. The '80's are calling, they want their foreign policy back.

What about your GF Tulsi who last time I checked is an active duty Lt. Col. in the National Guard articulating Russian propaganda on US/Ukrainian bioweapons in theater along with Carlson at Faux News?

She is now in the Army Reserve, no indication she is presently on active duty. I believe Kinzinger is still in the ANG. Both Lieutenant Colonels.
What is inaccurate or unreasonable about this ?
No mention of bio-weapons. Would a cease fire be a bad thing ?

https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status ... gr%5Etweet

[old salt]

Who did Biden want to see go on TV and make basically fraudulent political statements before releasing the congress approved aid?

https://thehill.com/policy/internationa ... estigating

[Typical Lax Dad]

Who did Biden want to see go on TV and make basically fraudulent political statements before releasing the congress approved aid?

https://thehill.com/policy/internationa ... estigating

You didn’t answer the question.

[old salt]

Who did Biden want to see go on TV and make basically fraudulent political statements before releasing the congress approved aid?

https://thehill.com/policy/internationa ... estigating

You didn’t answer the question.

The link does. Biden went on tv himself. Sumbitch !

[Kismet]

It's our fault that Putin is a snake that bites...
It's our fault if we stick our hand in his den & he bites us.

And yet, we were told again and again and again that Russia wasn't actually dangerous.
...because they have such a small GDP. The '80's are calling, they want their foreign policy back.

What about your GF Tulsi who last time I checked is an active duty Lt. Col. in the National Guard articulating Russian propaganda on US/Ukrainian bioweapons in theater along with Carlson at Faux News?

She is now in the Army Reserve, no indication she is presently on active duty. I believe Kinzinger is still in the ANG. Both Lieutenant Colonels.
What is inaccurate or unreasonable about this ?
No mention of bio-weapons. Would a cease fire be a bad thing ?

https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status ... gr%5Etweet

Maybe you should join her at QAnon
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/q ... -rcna19392

[Peter Brown]

It's our fault that Putin is a snake that bites...
It's our fault if we stick our hand in his den & he bites us.

And yet, we were told again and again and again that Russia wasn't actually dangerous.
...because they have such a small GDP. The '80's are calling, they want their foreign policy back.

What about your GF Tulsi who last time I checked is an active duty Lt. Col. in the National Guard articulating Russian propaganda on US/Ukrainian bioweapons in theater along with Carlson at Faux News?

She is now in the Army Reserve, no indication she is presently on active duty. I believe Kinzinger is still in the ANG. Both Lieutenant Colonels.
What is inaccurate or unreasonable about this ?
No mention of bio-weapons. Would a cease fire be a bad thing ?

https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status ... gr%5Etweet

Maybe you should join her at QAnon
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/q ... -rcna19392

This article hardly does what you want it to do.

Start with the fact that it’s written by Ben Collins, a highly partisan and often wrong NBC Democrat. Ben has been forced to delete so many tweets, I’m not sure anyone can count any longer.

That all said, the article is basically DC deep state ‘security’ companies promoting their companies. Krebs-Stamos… Anyone recognize that first name?

No one knows with any assurance whether there are or whether there are not biolabs as stated. DNC journalists rush to try to disprove anything that shows their side in a bad light. Oftentimes, this same group of journalists are proven wrong, but by the time someone can determine the truth, these journalists have quietly moved on to the next hot spot topic, all the while promoting their Party and the companies that their friends run (and of course everyone gets gifts of some kind for the mentions). Meanwhile, they are never held to account.

[Kismet]

It's our fault that Putin is a snake that bites...
It's our fault if we stick our hand in his den & he bites us.

And yet, we were told again and again and again that Russia wasn't actually dangerous.
...because they have such a small GDP. The '80's are calling, they want their foreign policy back.

What about your GF Tulsi who last time I checked is an active duty Lt. Col. in the National Guard articulating Russian propaganda on US/Ukrainian bioweapons in theater along with Carlson at Faux News?

She is now in the Army Reserve, no indication she is presently on active duty. I believe Kinzinger is still in the ANG. Both Lieutenant Colonels.
What is inaccurate or unreasonable about this ?
No mention of bio-weapons. Would a cease fire be a bad thing ?

https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status ... gr%5Etweet

Maybe you should join her at QAnon
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/q ... -rcna19392

This article hardly does what you want it to do.

Start with the fact that it’s written by Ben Collins, a highly partisan and often wrong NBC Democrat. Ben has been forced to delete so many tweets, I’m not sure anyone can count any longer.

That all said, the article is basically DC deep state ‘security’ companies promoting their companies. Krebs-Stamos… Anyone recognize that first name?

No one knows with any assurance whether there are or whether there are not biolabs as stated. DNC journalists rush to try to disprove anything that shows their side in a bad light. Oftentimes, this same group of journalists are proven wrong, but by the time someone can determine the truth, these journalists have quietly moved on to the next hot spot topic, all the while promoting their Party and the companies that their friends run (and of course everyone gets gifts of some kind for the mentions). Meanwhile, they are never held to account.

He is wrong apparently less frequently than YOU Einstein.

[RedFromMI]

PB's first argument against something he disagrees with is to go for the messenger first. Or put up a straw man argument.

Of course, he is the only one who can say which messengers/messages are acceptable...

[old salt]

It's our fault that Putin is a snake that bites...
It's our fault if we stick our hand in his den & he bites us.

And yet, we were told again and again and again that Russia wasn't actually dangerous.
...because they have such a small GDP. The '80's are calling, they want their foreign policy back.

What about your GF Tulsi who last time I checked is an active duty Lt. Col. in the National Guard articulating Russian propaganda on US/Ukrainian bioweapons in theater along with Carlson at Faux News?

She is now in the Army Reserve, no indication she is presently on active duty. I believe Kinzinger is still in the ANG. Both Lieutenant Colonels.
What is inaccurate or unreasonable about this ?
No mention of bio-weapons. Would a cease fire be a bad thing ?

https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status ... gr%5Etweet

Maybe you should join her at QAnon
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/q ... -rcna19392

Are you going to show us where Tulsi said anything about bio-weapons ?
Your NBC link made no mention of Tulsi.
Govt labs may have hazardous pathogens for research that has nothing to do with bio-weapons.
e.g. detecting & typing anthrax in farm animal populations.
https://www.cnn.com/2014/07/15/health/c ... index.html

[Kismet]

It's our fault that Putin is a snake that bites...
It's our fault if we stick our hand in his den & he bites us.

And yet, we were told again and again and again that Russia wasn't actually dangerous.
...because they have such a small GDP. The '80's are calling, they want their foreign policy back.

What about your GF Tulsi who last time I checked is an active duty Lt. Col. in the National Guard articulating Russian propaganda on US/Ukrainian bioweapons in theater along with Carlson at Faux News?

She is now in the Army Reserve, no indication she is presently on active duty. I believe Kinzinger is still in the ANG. Both Lieutenant Colonels.
What is inaccurate or unreasonable about this ?
No mention of bio-weapons. Would a cease fire be a bad thing ?

https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status ... gr%5Etweet

Maybe you should join her at QAnon
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/q ... -rcna19392

Are you going to show us where Tulsi said anything about bio-weapons ?
Your NBC link made no mention of Tulsi.
Govt labs may have hazardous pathogens for research that has nothing to do with bio-weapons.
e.g. detecting & typing anthrax in farm animal populations.
https://www.cnn.com/2014/07/15/health/c ... index.html

I guess your RT subscription must have expired - Russian and Chinese sources saying the same things as your girl Tulsi. NBC article points to questionable sourcing of all this alleged bio development in Ukraine funded by USA.

I'd pay attention to this fellow right now - Andrei V Kozyrev, Foreign Minister of Russia, 1990-1996. Member of the State Duma till 2000; then businessman, speaker and author

[Peter Brown]

PB's first argument against something he disagrees with is to go for the messenger first. Or put up a straw man argument.

Of course, he is the only one who can say which messengers/messages are acceptable...

Not exactly true. I only mention those journalists who are often forced to retract tweets or stories, because media malpractice is a topic dear to my heart. I also know that very few Democrats realize how often their journalistic sources are wrong. Ben Collins, Julia Ioffe, and Aaron Rupar are three of the most egregiously wrong journalists in America…well documented.

Second, I answered the topic by saying that no one knows if there are or there are NOT biolabs as discussed. All these people rushing to claim they know, don’t know Shiite. And we may never know. No one can even travel in these areas to see first hand.

It’s revealing to me (and should be to you as well) when spurious journalists with spurious sources try to set the record straight so quickly, when anyone with a brain should know they actually don’t know what they are saying and are simply selling you some partisan BS. Unless you can provide a photo of Ben in Donbas yesterday, I’d be very skeptical of what he’s selling here. I don’t think I’m going out on a limb saying Ben basically sits in a Brooklyn apartment all day tweeting out DNC propaganda.

[tech37]

Is US doing enough to help Zelinsky negotiate with Putin?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLCIg6B2GWU

[Peter Brown]

So Biden has yet to comment on the American journalist Brent Renaud killed in Ukraine, yet the entire rest of the western world’s leadership has.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... enaud.html

Truly disturbing indifference by this administration.

Ukrainians are asking joe to comment.

Would it really pain Joe to at least make a public comment. Ukrainians are wondering if we even have a leader.

I don’t even know what to say. Just unreal.

[seacoaster]

A day old and probably dated, but a very interesting assessment of where things stand:

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgr ... t-march-13

FFG, are you seeing any economic assessments of Russia? Debt defaults? Inflation there? Foreign currency on hand?

[jhu72]

It's our fault that Putin is a snake that bites...
It's our fault if we stick our hand in his den & he bites us.

And yet, we were told again and again and again that Russia wasn't actually dangerous.
...because they have such a small GDP. The '80's are calling, they want their foreign policy back.

What about your GF Tulsi who last time I checked is an active duty Lt. Col. in the National Guard articulating Russian propaganda on US/Ukrainian bioweapons in theater along with Carlson at Faux News?

She is now in the Army Reserve, no indication she is presently on active duty. I believe Kinzinger is still in the ANG. Both Lieutenant Colonels.
What is inaccurate or unreasonable about this ?
No mention of bio-weapons. Would a cease fire be a bad thing ?

https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status ... gr%5Etweet

Maybe you should join her at QAnon
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/q ... -rcna19392

This article hardly does what you want it to do.

Start with the fact that it’s written by Ben Collins, a highly partisan and often wrong NBC Democrat. Ben has been forced to delete so many tweets, I’m not sure anyone can count any longer.

That all said, the article is basically DC deep state ‘security’ companies promoting their companies. Krebs-Stamos… Anyone recognize that first name?

No one knows with any assurance whether there are or whether there are not biolabs as stated. DNC journalists rush to try to disprove anything that shows their side in a bad light. Oftentimes, this same group of journalists are proven wrong, but by the time someone can determine the truth, these journalists have quietly moved on to the next hot spot topic, all the while promoting their Party and the companies that their friends run (and of course everyone gets gifts of some kind for the mentions). Meanwhile, they are never held to account.

... Kellyanne spinning. Describes the republiCON / Trumpnista blogosphere and claims it is the democrats. Kellyanne, a reliably lying sac-o-sh*t.

[jhu72]

PB's first argument against something he disagrees with is to go for the messenger first. Or put up a straw man argument.

Of course, he is the only one who can say which messengers/messages are acceptable...

Not exactly true. I only mention those journalists who are often forced to retract tweets or stories, because media malpractice is a topic dear to my heart. I also know that very few Democrats realize how often their journalistic sources are wrong. Ben Collins, Julia Ioffe, and Aaron Rupar are three of the most egregiously wrong journalists in America…well documented.

Second, I answered the topic by saying that no one knows if there are or there are NOT biolabs as discussed. All these people rushing to claim they know, don’t know Shiite. And we may never know. No one can even travel in these areas to see first hand.

It’s revealing to me (and should be to you as well) when spurious journalists with spurious sources try to set the record straight so quickly, when anyone with a brain should know they actually don’t know what they are saying and are simply selling you some partisan BS. Unless you can provide a photo of Ben in Donbas yesterday, I’d be very skeptical of what he’s selling here. I don’t think I’m going out on a limb saying Ben basically sits in a Brooklyn apartment all day tweeting out DNC propaganda.

... how about show us a handful of cases where Ben Collings has been wrong. You know what he said / wrote and then the truth (from reliable sources).

[RedFromMI]

PB's first argument against something he disagrees with is to go for the messenger first. Or put up a straw man argument.

Of course, he is the only one who can say which messengers/messages are acceptable...

Not exactly true. I only mention those journalists who are often forced to retract tweets or stories, because media malpractice is a topic dear to my heart. I also know that very few Democrats realize how often their journalistic sources are wrong. Ben Collins, Julia Ioffe, and Aaron Rupar are three of the most egregiously wrong journalists in America…well documented.

Second, I answered the topic by saying that no one knows if there are or there are NOT biolabs as discussed. All these people rushing to claim they know, don’t know Shiite. And we may never know. No one can even travel in these areas to see first hand.

It’s revealing to me (and should be to you as well) when spurious journalists with spurious sources try to set the record straight so quickly, when anyone with a brain should know they actually don’t know what they are saying and are simply selling you some partisan BS. Unless you can provide a photo of Ben in Donbas yesterday, I’d be very skeptical of what he’s selling here. I don’t think I’m going out on a limb saying Ben basically sits in a Brooklyn apartment all day tweeting out DNC propaganda.

Pretty much NONE of the sources you cite ever set the record straight. Fixing errors is expected in journalism. It is when they don't ever do that you need to worry.

And the "biolabs" in Ukraine _currently_ are actually documented to do normal research into bacteria and virii - in fact some recent Russian propaganda has been shown to indicate absolutely normal (and NOT highly dangerous) research into vectors of disease. But you are attached to KNOWN sources of misinformation (Tucker Carlson and Glen Greenwald are in fact spouting NONSENSE about the UA labs).

No matter how you pretty up your statements you do not know in fact whether Ben Collins is tweeting out DNC propaganda. You just like to say it. In order to be confident in that assessment you both have to know what is DNC propaganda vs. real facts, and know that Collins is actually doing that.

[MDlaxfan76]

Actually liars don't need to ever admit they are lying, never have to correct themselves...that's the beauty of being a liar.