All Things Russia & Ukraine

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jhu72
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by jhu72 »

Kismet wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 7:32 am Rooskies declares that arms shipments on the ground from NATO Eastern Flank into Ukraine will be considered legitimate targets for Russian airstrikes. No idea how they discern arms shipments in any legiitmate way.

I'm beginning to think expanded war with NATO may be on the table. Not good.

On the other hand,, Putin just arrested a number of high level security people Can only hope that others inside the government starting thinking that they are not going down with the ship with some help from oligarchs. Don't think the Chinese are going to act in any material way unless they cook up a deal with a potential successor.

Interesting piece on Mykhailo Fedorov, Ukraine’s youngest minister who is using digital tools to wage economic war on Russia which might be winnable

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/12/tech ... gital.html
... there are also non-state actors that are waging cyber war on Russia.

... I would not put it past the Chinese. Putin is a problem for them as well. They are only going to support him to a point, until the blow back starts to give them black eyes. They want to live in this world, preferably ordered to be friendly to them. Letting Putin run wild is not conducive to that.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

jhu72 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:45 am
old salt wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 4:33 am
jhu72 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 1:11 am
old salt wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:38 am
jhu72 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:10 am
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 5:04 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:54 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:49 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:16 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:02 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:30 am I've found way less persuasive some of the reporting bolstering the contention that the MiG's would not be helpful in combatting the Air Force attacks, because so much of the destruction is being done by missiles and artillery. I do understand the relative utility argument, but seems to me that the ability to contest the skies, especially in western Ukraine where people are fleeing and resupply is coming from is really important to sustaining the effort successfully. It's not an either/or.
... agree with you on the MiG issue. I suspect they will turn up there quietly.
Disregard the escalation issue. Do either of you dispute DoD's contention that the UAF is not using the Mig 29's they have & why they are not.
If the UAF wanted to contest the skies, why have they not done so with their Mig 29's & more capable SU-27's.
They are barely flying what they have, but yet they keep asking for the Mig29s. They aren't stupid, they must have their own reasons. Spare parts? There is more going on here than we know.
Send a list of spare parts needed. Easier to get them in than flying the entire plane there.
... agree. So why do the Ukrainians keep asking? I don't think this is just trying to keep pressure on the allies for support given the support we are known to be supplying. Asking without a valid reason backfires ultimately. Ukrainians aren't stupid.
Zelensky is trying to drag us into the fight. That's why he keeps agitating for things he knows we can't do. He knows that is the only way to end it without destroying his country & further devastating his population. He's scapegoating the US so his population won't blame him. No matter how much we do (short of full scale military intervention), it will never be enough & the US will be the villain for not doing more.
... I had considered this. It is plausible. But at this time, I am not buying it. There is more going on than we know I believe.

... Zelensky is trying to have us engage further, that is clear. The entire Ukrainian population is doing that. What I don't buy is he is doing this to scapegoat the US!
You don't speak for the Ukrainian people. The only ones we hear are the few who the tv editors show us. Zelensky assured his people that Putin would not invade, trapping millions of them who could have left the country or depopulated the cities. Had he not raised the Mig issue, they could have sneaked them into the 2 airfields in W Ukraine before they were bombed. If this ends badly, he'll blame the US for encouraging him, then not coming through in the crunch, ...& he'll be right. We should not have given him false hope. We should have pushed him to the Minsk table & let Macron & Merkel make a deal for him. He would have had to renounce a claim to Crimea & Donbass, agree to remain neutral & not join NATO & the EU. He'll be lucky to get that much now, if he survives.
Lots of coulda - woulda - shouldas. Zelensky is not really in control, the Ukrainian people are.

... if this ends badly, Zelensky is dead. Scapegoating the US buys him nothing. Zelensky knows this.
The Ukrainian people are just beginning to experience how bad it can get. It doesn't have to end that way. Zelensky transitions from Churchill to DeGaulle. He & his war cabinet relocate to Lviv & lead the war effort from there. Pull his troops out of Kiev & other cities, continue the fight from the areas the Russians do not hold. Negotiate a cease fire in place & safe zone in W Ukraine, sparing the civilian population, allowing in humanitarian aid & refugee corridors to the W. This has been done in the Balkans, Syria, Libya & Africa. Russia was involved in the Balkans & Syria. Yes it's ethnic cleansing, to an extent, but it spares the population. Putin will treat well the ethnic Russians who remain in the E. Refugees who flow W will be safe in refugee camps or some will resettle in W Ukraine. You end up with a temporary de facto E & W Ukraine, just like E & W post war occupied Germany. It's a bad outcome, but better than the alternative -- turning the country into a hellscape like Syria, Bosnia, Kosovo or Libya. At least you'd have a free W Ukraine for ethnic Ukrainians & ethnic Russians who prefer to remain Ukrainian citizens. Negotiations can drag on forever, once there's a cease fire. Keep the Cold War punishments on Russia until Putin is forced to retire to his dacha, or arrested & dragged to the ICC.
... yup, all of this is possible theoretically, if the Ukrainian people will accept it. But they say they won't - they will fight forever, they will resist. This could just be bravado. I suspect not in a very very large number of cases. My point again is, the west really can't make this happen, it is not our choice. We would have to disarm them (cut off their supplies). Many I have a feeling would continue to resist. These Ukrainians seem to be Spartans.

Note, I am not sure those Russians in the east will be treated so well, will be compliant. Indications are they will also fight. They certainly have so far. That is probably Putin's best chance for a compliant population, but I don't think it is assured.
I also think that any notion that a surrender by the Ukrainians would result in a materially less bloody outcome is belied by past experiences with Russian control. I think any occupation would be incredibly bloody and brutal, just not seen on TV as there would be a blackout of all news.

Fewer buildings destroyed, but just as many, maybe many more, Ukrainian lives lost. And total loss of any semblance of freedom.

If I was a Ukrainian I'd dig in. Fight with anything and everything I have.
Meanwhile, try to get as many folks out who are unable to fight.
But as soon as you stop fighting, any escape from the brutality is near impossible.
CU88
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by CU88 »

RedFromMI wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:22 pm Good Twitter thread tonight from @WarInTheFuture - Major General (Just Retired!) Mick Ryan
It is 16 days since the Russian invasion of Ukraine began. Today I will examine the the importance of the adaptation battle in war, and how it is playing out in Ukraine. (Image - BBC)

Image

As always, a shout out to those reporting on the Russian invasion. This includes @KofmanMichael @maxseddon @IAPonomarenko @RALee85 @shashj @DanLamothe @ikhurshudyan @IanPannell @DefenceHQ @TheStudyofWar @siobhan_ogrady
among others. Please follow them.

It is impossible for the military to anticipate every eventuality in war. There are too many scenarios to accurately predict wartime events. As such, a key virtue for military organizations in war must be adaptability to unexpected events.

In his famous essay, The Use and Abuse of Military History, Sir Michael Howard described the problem thus: “It is not surprising that there has often been a high proportion of failures among senior commanders at the beginning of any war.”

“These unfortunate men may either take too long to adjust themselves to reality…of they may have had their minds so far shaped by a lifetime of pure administration that they have ceased…to be soldiers.” Read it all here:https://t.co/MDf9iAlq7h

As Williamson Murray writes, because war “is interactive, both sides have the potential to adapt to the conflict at every level…thus the problems posed by the battlespace do not remain constant. More often than not they change with startling rapidity.”

Image

The exploration of adaptation has resulted in the development of a range of concepts on how adaptation occurs & how it can be applied. In military literature, the best-known adaptive cycle is Boyd’s OODA (observe-orient-decide-act) loop.

Image

Frank Hoffman has also proposed a model for military adaptation which he calls Organisational Learning Capacity. It has four parts: leadership; organisational culture; learning mechanisms; and, dissemination mechanisms.

So, effective military institutions need to adapt in war, at every level, and share lessons broadly to ensure an entire force can learn from both success and failure. Military institutions must win the adaptation battle at the strategic, operational & tactical levels.

What kind of adaptations have we witnessed in this war so far?

From the Russians, they had to adapt their campaign within the first 48 hours because their attempt at a lightening conquest of Ukraine failed. This was most obvious in the north and the attempts to capture Kyiv. They had to adapt their campaign to what we are now seeing.

Further, they have experienced major challenges in the ability to coordinate combined arms warfare on the ground - it has seen them advance much slower, and sustain more casualties, than anticipated. They have therefore adapted to rely more on firepower than maneuver.

For the Ukrainians, they have clearly recognised that the Russians have poor rear area security. They have adapted their operations to fight the Russians in the rear areas. It is hard for the Russians to advance when they have to constantly look over their shoulders.

The Ukrainians also appear to have adapted based on the big inflow of western crew served anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapons. This isn’t to say they did not have them previously. But it appears these now have greater emphasis in Ukrainian operations.

Finally, the Ukrainians have adapted in the info environment. Not only did they seize the initiative at the start of the war, they have learned and evolved in a tactical, operational and strategic influence fight against Russian misinformation. (Image - @IAPonomarenko)

Image

There will be many other adaptations on the ground we are not seeing. In due course, we will need to study other military adaptations – from both sides – that will emerge.

Finally, what military adaptations might we see in the near future in Ukraine?

The Russians are clearly still attempting to improve their ability to plan and coordinate large scale ground maneuver. We may see them adapt their communications to be more secure, improve logistics, and replace incompetent commanders to improve tactical performance.

We may see increased Russian operations in the west as they adapt their overall campaign. They will need to halt, or severely restrict the flow of western arms and other aid, into Ukraine. This will force Ukraine to adapt is defensive campaign.

From the Ukrainians, we may see an #adaptation to their overall scheme of defence where they start focussing more on support to insurgent forces in areas already captured by the Russians. At the same time they will need to sustain conventional operations.

The Ukrainians are also adapting their tactical force structure to absorb foreign combatants and support personnel. Given training, language and cultural differences, this will be a significant adaptation for them to manage.

As I note in #WarTransformed, military organizations are never at a steady state. The rapid pace of change means that they will be adapting at each level concurrently and doing so constantly. This adaptation battle is what we are seeing play out now in Ukraine.

There are other good references on this topic. Here are just three of my favourites – among many – on the topic of military adaptation.

Image

Adaptation is a central component of war, and a 'learning culture' is key to institutional adaptation. There will be more adaptations to observe in Ukraine in the days & weeks ahead. I will take a break tomorrow, and return with my daily thread on Monday. End.
Thanks for sharing
by cradleandshoot » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:57 am
Mr moderator, deactivate my account.
You have heck this forum up to making it nothing more than a joke. I hope you are happy.
This is cradle and shoot signing out.
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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:05 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:00 am
old salt wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:38 am
jhu72 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:10 am
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 5:04 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:54 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:49 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:16 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:02 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:30 am I've found way less persuasive some of the reporting bolstering the contention that the MiG's would not be helpful in combatting the Air Force attacks, because so much of the destruction is being done by missiles and artillery. I do understand the relative utility argument, but seems to me that the ability to contest the skies, especially in western Ukraine where people are fleeing and resupply is coming from is really important to sustaining the effort successfully. It's not an either/or.
... agree with you on the MiG issue. I suspect they will turn up there quietly.
Disregard the escalation issue. Do either of you dispute DoD's contention that the UAF is not using the Mig 29's they have & why they are not.
If the UAF wanted to contest the skies, why have they not done so with their Mig 29's & more capable SU-27's.
They are barely flying what they have, but yet they keep asking for the Mig29s. They aren't stupid, they must have their own reasons. Spare parts? There is more going on here than we know.
Send a list of spare parts needed. Easier to get them in than flying the entire plane there.
... agree. So why do the Ukrainians keep asking? I don't think this is just trying to keep pressure on the allies for support given the support we are known to be supplying. Asking without a valid reason backfires ultimately. Ukrainians aren't stupid.
Zelensky is trying to drag us into the fight. That's why he keeps agitating for things he knows we can't do. He knows that is the only way to end it without destroying his country & further devastating his population. He's scapegoating the US so his population won't blame him. No matter how much we do (short of full scale military intervention), it will never be enough & the US will be the villain for not doing more.
... I had considered this. It is plausible. But at this time, I am not buying it. There is more going on than we know I believe.

... Zelensky is trying to have us engage further, that is clear. The entire Ukrainian population is doing that. What I don't buy is he is doing this to scapegoat the US!
You don't speak for the Ukrainian people. The only ones we hear are the few who the tv editors show us. Zelensky assured his people that Putin would not invade, trapping millions of them who could have left the country or depopulated the cities. Had he not raised the Mig issue, they could have sneaked them into the 2 airfields in W Ukraine before they were bombed. If this ends badly, he'll blame the US for encouraging him, then not coming through in the crunch, ...& he'll be right. We should not have given him false hope. We should have pushed him to the Minsk table & let Macron & Merkel make a deal for him. He would have had to renounce a claim to Crimea & Donbass, agree to remain neutral & not join NATO & the EU. He'll be lucky to get that much now, if he survives.
Nor do you. Or for Zelensky.
Like an old ball coach…. They are all undefeated in their new roles…. More blame the USA. Standing up to Russia doesn’t matter anymore. It was Old Soviet’s tag line. He scrubbed it…… the Soviet way.
Yeah, you tough guys would stand & fight until the last babushka is a smoldering heap. They're taking volunteers. Go for it.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by jhu72 »

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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by ardilla secreta »

a fan wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:08 am
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 5:08 pm
a fan wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:27 pm
seacoaster wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:16 pm His f*cking nation and freedom is at stake; he is speaking and lobbying for generations. I can't blame him for playing every card, every Zimmerman Telegram, he finds lying around:

https://twitter.com/olliecarroll/status ... 5327253504
I can’t either!

My point is—-he has to know what it takes to get Putin to stop. Bravery won’t do it, as admirable as it is.

What’s best for his people. If he keeps that at the front of his mind, he’ll find a way to get Putin out
... I don't think people here are considering what Zelensky's people will think of him if he surrenders to the Russians. He doesn't have the ability to surrender to Putin.
I never said a word about surrendering. We all know that Ukraine won't fall.....Russia simply can't hold the entire country. That's not an option for Putin.

What I'm talking about is: is Zelensky smart enough to give Putin his BS face saving nonsense he can take to his people and say "see, I made this happen".

I'm back to my suggestion of Ukraine pledging to remain neutral. Pretty obvious to Putin and the rest of us that Ukraine doesn't NEED NATO. They'll get along just fine with with armaments from the US et. al.

So that's the deal-----pledge neutrality, Putin leaves. I have NO IDEA what else would get Putin to back off. Death?
It doesn’t usually end well for dictators who needlessly lead their country into turmoil. As a KGB guy he’s probably pretty paranoid about where he goes and associates with. Oligarchs can’t be very pleased about what’s affecting their bottom line and Putin’s underlings are likely concerned about their own well-being.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

old salt wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 9:39 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:05 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:00 am
old salt wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:38 am
jhu72 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:10 am
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 5:04 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:54 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:49 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:16 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:02 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:30 am I've found way less persuasive some of the reporting bolstering the contention that the MiG's would not be helpful in combatting the Air Force attacks, because so much of the destruction is being done by missiles and artillery. I do understand the relative utility argument, but seems to me that the ability to contest the skies, especially in western Ukraine where people are fleeing and resupply is coming from is really important to sustaining the effort successfully. It's not an either/or.
... agree with you on the MiG issue. I suspect they will turn up there quietly.
Disregard the escalation issue. Do either of you dispute DoD's contention that the UAF is not using the Mig 29's they have & why they are not.
If the UAF wanted to contest the skies, why have they not done so with their Mig 29's & more capable SU-27's.
They are barely flying what they have, but yet they keep asking for the Mig29s. They aren't stupid, they must have their own reasons. Spare parts? There is more going on here than we know.
Send a list of spare parts needed. Easier to get them in than flying the entire plane there.
... agree. So why do the Ukrainians keep asking? I don't think this is just trying to keep pressure on the allies for support given the support we are known to be supplying. Asking without a valid reason backfires ultimately. Ukrainians aren't stupid.
Zelensky is trying to drag us into the fight. That's why he keeps agitating for things he knows we can't do. He knows that is the only way to end it without destroying his country & further devastating his population. He's scapegoating the US so his population won't blame him. No matter how much we do (short of full scale military intervention), it will never be enough & the US will be the villain for not doing more.
... I had considered this. It is plausible. But at this time, I am not buying it. There is more going on than we know I believe.

... Zelensky is trying to have us engage further, that is clear. The entire Ukrainian population is doing that. What I don't buy is he is doing this to scapegoat the US!
You don't speak for the Ukrainian people. The only ones we hear are the few who the tv editors show us. Zelensky assured his people that Putin would not invade, trapping millions of them who could have left the country or depopulated the cities. Had he not raised the Mig issue, they could have sneaked them into the 2 airfields in W Ukraine before they were bombed. If this ends badly, he'll blame the US for encouraging him, then not coming through in the crunch, ...& he'll be right. We should not have given him false hope. We should have pushed him to the Minsk table & let Macron & Merkel make a deal for him. He would have had to renounce a claim to Crimea & Donbass, agree to remain neutral & not join NATO & the EU. He'll be lucky to get that much now, if he survives.
Nor do you. Or for Zelensky.
Like an old ball coach…. They are all undefeated in their new roles…. More blame the USA. Standing up to Russia doesn’t matter anymore. It was Old Soviet’s tag line. He scrubbed it…… the Soviet way.
Yeah, you tough guys would stand & fight until the last babushka is a smoldering heap. They're taking volunteers. Go for it.
Uh huh. It’s the USA’s fault and Putin is right. You have been consistent for years old red one….them peoples is Russians. Not from The Ukraine. His actions are justified.
“I wish you would!”
a fan
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 4:33 am
jhu72 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 1:11 am
old salt wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:38 am
jhu72 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:10 am
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 5:04 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:54 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:49 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:16 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:02 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:30 am I've found way less persuasive some of the reporting bolstering the contention that the MiG's would not be helpful in combatting the Air Force attacks, because so much of the destruction is being done by missiles and artillery. I do understand the relative utility argument, but seems to me that the ability to contest the skies, especially in western Ukraine where people are fleeing and resupply is coming from is really important to sustaining the effort successfully. It's not an either/or.
... agree with you on the MiG issue. I suspect they will turn up there quietly.
Disregard the escalation issue. Do either of you dispute DoD's contention that the UAF is not using the Mig 29's they have & why they are not.
If the UAF wanted to contest the skies, why have they not done so with their Mig 29's & more capable SU-27's.
They are barely flying what they have, but yet they keep asking for the Mig29s. They aren't stupid, they must have their own reasons. Spare parts? There is more going on here than we know.
Send a list of spare parts needed. Easier to get them in than flying the entire plane there.
... agree. So why do the Ukrainians keep asking? I don't think this is just trying to keep pressure on the allies for support given the support we are known to be supplying. Asking without a valid reason backfires ultimately. Ukrainians aren't stupid.
Zelensky is trying to drag us into the fight. That's why he keeps agitating for things he knows we can't do. He knows that is the only way to end it without destroying his country & further devastating his population. He's scapegoating the US so his population won't blame him. No matter how much we do (short of full scale military intervention), it will never be enough & the US will be the villain for not doing more.
... I had considered this. It is plausible. But at this time, I am not buying it. There is more going on than we know I believe.

... Zelensky is trying to have us engage further, that is clear. The entire Ukrainian population is doing that. What I don't buy is he is doing this to scapegoat the US!
You don't speak for the Ukrainian people. The only ones we hear are the few who the tv editors show us. Zelensky assured his people that Putin would not invade, trapping millions of them who could have left the country or depopulated the cities. Had he not raised the Mig issue, they could have sneaked them into the 2 airfields in W Ukraine before they were bombed. If this ends badly, he'll blame the US for encouraging him, then not coming through in the crunch, ...& he'll be right. We should not have given him false hope. We should have pushed him to the Minsk table & let Macron & Merkel make a deal for him. He would have had to renounce a claim to Crimea & Donbass, agree to remain neutral & not join NATO & the EU. He'll be lucky to get that much now, if he survives.
Lots of coulda - woulda - shouldas. Zelensky is not really in control, the Ukrainian people are.

... if this ends badly, Zelensky is dead. Scapegoating the US buys him nothing. Zelensky knows this.
The Ukrainian people are just beginning to experience how bad it can get. It doesn't have to end that way. Zelensky transitions from Churchill to DeGaulle. He & his war cabinet relocate to Lviv & lead the war effort from there. Pull his troops out of Kiev & other cities, continue the fight from the areas the Russians do not hold. Negotiate a cease fire in place & safe zone in W Ukraine, sparing the civilian population, allowing in humanitarian aid & refugee corridors to the W. This has been done in the Balkans, Syria, Libya & Africa. Russia was involved in the Balkans & Syria. Yes it's ethnic cleansing, to an extent, but it spares the population. Putin will treat well the ethnic Russians who remain in the E. Refugees who flow W will be safe in refugee camps or some will resettle in W Ukraine. You end up with a temporary de facto E & W Ukraine, just like E & W post war occupied Germany. It's a bad outcome, but better than the alternative -- turning the country into a hellscape like Syria, Bosnia, Kosovo or Libya. At least you'd have a free W Ukraine for ethnic Ukrainians & ethnic Russians who prefer to remain Ukrainian citizens. Negotiations can drag on forever, once there's a cease fire. Keep the Cold War punishments on Russia until Putin is forced to retire to his dacha, or arrested & dragged to the ICC.
I can see this happening. Putin gets a piece of Ukraine.

It’s why zelensky should offer neutrality, and no NATO.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by jhu72 »

Zelensky reports on status of war and negotiations. Negotiations seem to be moving in right direction for the first time.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Brooklyn »

Image
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/02/28 ... 933247.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FneeVzb ... wsSentinel




https://ucu.edu.ua/en/news/foreign-inte ... w-to-join/


Foreign international legion: how to join?
TUESDAY, 1 MARCH, 2022
On Sunday February 27, President Volodymyr Zelenskiy announced the establishment of a foreign international legion. President is addressing the citizens of all the world to join the defence of the democratic world and anyone who would like to fight side by side with Ukrainian defenders.



Latvia has already allowed its citizens to fight against the Russian occupants in Ukraine. Ukrainians from the French Foreign Legion will be able to travel to their homeland to defend the country. Worth noting that the Legion confirmed to provide professional equipment to all soldiers willing to go to Ukraine. Minister of Foreign Affairs, Dmytro Kuleba, assured that foreigners who want to join the International Legion will be simplified to enter Ukraine. In the appendix to the letter, we send brief instructions on how all people of good will and military training can carry out such an act of support in the war for democracy.

Ukrainians are viewing prominent support from countries all around the world. Besides sanctions on Russia and financial support for the Ukrainian army, the foreign legion of volunteer soldiers has been formed. Ukrainian multimedia platform for broadcasting Ukrinform has received from security circles a 7-step algorithm on how to join the for:

Step 1. Contact the Embassy of Ukraine in your country with the intention to join the International Legion of Territorial Defense of Ukraine (reach out to a military attache or consul: contact details are available on the website of our embassies):

You can apply in three ways: 1) come to the embassy in person; 2) call the embassy; 3) send an e-mail.

Step 2. Get briefed on what documents and gear (equipment) you will require. Documents: ID or passport (national); passport for foreign travel; documents confirming military service experience (service in law enforcement) and combat experience; other documents on the instructions of a military attache or consul.

Step 3. Report to the embassy with a package of documents for an interview with a defense attaché and for visa clearance – with a consul.

Step 4. Write an application for admission to the territorial defense of the Armed Forces of Ukraine for contracted military service on a voluntary basis (defense attaché provides assistance).

Step 5. Get instructions on how to arrive in Ukraine, the documents and equipment required.

It is recommended that you have on you military uniform or its elements, gear, helmet, body armor, and more, if available.

Step 6. Cross into Ukraine in a designated manner. Representatives of Ukrainian embassies, consulates (abroad) and territorial defense forces in Ukraine will provide assistance in deployment. Their contacts will be provided at the Embassy of Ukraine in your country.

Step 7. Upon arrival at the assembly point in Ukraine, join the Foreign Legion of Territorial Defense of Ukraine (sign a contract) and together with soldiers from other countries and Ukrainian soldiers join the fight against Russian invaders.





How many of the forum's pro war heroes will be signing up soon?
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Typical Lax Dad
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

That’s strange. The military expert here believes The Ukraine is being liberated. It’s not a real country. Those soldiers are fighting for freedom from the USA’s influence.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by ardilla secreta »

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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:26 am
old salt wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 9:39 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:05 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:00 am
old salt wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:38 am
jhu72 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:10 am
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 5:04 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:54 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:49 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:16 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:02 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:30 am I've found way less persuasive some of the reporting bolstering the contention that the MiG's would not be helpful in combatting the Air Force attacks, because so much of the destruction is being done by missiles and artillery. I do understand the relative utility argument, but seems to me that the ability to contest the skies, especially in western Ukraine where people are fleeing and resupply is coming from is really important to sustaining the effort successfully. It's not an either/or.
... agree with you on the MiG issue. I suspect they will turn up there quietly.
Disregard the escalation issue. Do either of you dispute DoD's contention that the UAF is not using the Mig 29's they have & why they are not.
If the UAF wanted to contest the skies, why have they not done so with their Mig 29's & more capable SU-27's.
They are barely flying what they have, but yet they keep asking for the Mig29s. They aren't stupid, they must have their own reasons. Spare parts? There is more going on here than we know.
Send a list of spare parts needed. Easier to get them in than flying the entire plane there.
... agree. So why do the Ukrainians keep asking? I don't think this is just trying to keep pressure on the allies for support given the support we are known to be supplying. Asking without a valid reason backfires ultimately. Ukrainians aren't stupid.
Zelensky is trying to drag us into the fight. That's why he keeps agitating for things he knows we can't do. He knows that is the only way to end it without destroying his country & further devastating his population. He's scapegoating the US so his population won't blame him. No matter how much we do (short of full scale military intervention), it will never be enough & the US will be the villain for not doing more.
... I had considered this. It is plausible. But at this time, I am not buying it. There is more going on than we know I believe.

... Zelensky is trying to have us engage further, that is clear. The entire Ukrainian population is doing that. What I don't buy is he is doing this to scapegoat the US!
You don't speak for the Ukrainian people. The only ones we hear are the few who the tv editors show us. Zelensky assured his people that Putin would not invade, trapping millions of them who could have left the country or depopulated the cities. Had he not raised the Mig issue, they could have sneaked them into the 2 airfields in W Ukraine before they were bombed. If this ends badly, he'll blame the US for encouraging him, then not coming through in the crunch, ...& he'll be right. We should not have given him false hope. We should have pushed him to the Minsk table & let Macron & Merkel make a deal for him. He would have had to renounce a claim to Crimea & Donbass, agree to remain neutral & not join NATO & the EU. He'll be lucky to get that much now, if he survives.
Nor do you. Or for Zelensky.
Like an old ball coach…. They are all undefeated in their new roles…. More blame the USA. Standing up to Russia doesn’t matter anymore. It was Old Soviet’s tag line. He scrubbed it…… the Soviet way.
Yeah, you tough guys would stand & fight until the last babushka is a smoldering heap. They're taking volunteers. Go for it.
Uh huh. It’s the USA’s fault and Putin is right. You have been consistent for years old red one….them peoples is Russians. Not from The Ukraine. His actions are justified.
That's just your BS spin. Fault or innocent, right or wrong, good or bad, do not matter. It's war not a morality play.

You must recognize Putin for what he is, acknowledge what motivates him, pay attention to what he says, anticipate what he's going to do, don't trap him in a corner & don't give him an advantage.

It's not a game, it does not matter who you root for.

We either find a way to peacefully co-exist with Russia & Putin, or we go to war, cold or hot. Enjoy your war & moral superiority.
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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 11:14 am
That’s strange. The military expert here believes The Ukraine is being liberated. It’s not a real country. Those soldiers are fighting for freedom from the USA’s influence.
...& the mass media expert here thinks it a tv game show.
Essexfenwick
Posts: 1140
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Essexfenwick »

old salt wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 3:53 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 11:14 am
That’s strange. The military expert here believes The Ukraine is being liberated. It’s not a real country. Those soldiers are fighting for freedom from the USA’s influence.
...& the mass media expert here thinks it a tv game show.

Everybody knows..

The “regressives” central control folks

Aren’t the people who created America
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23825
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Farfromgeneva »

old salt wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 3:51 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:26 am
old salt wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 9:39 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:05 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:00 am
old salt wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:38 am
jhu72 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:10 am
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 5:04 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:54 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:49 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:16 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:02 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:30 am I've found way less persuasive some of the reporting bolstering the contention that the MiG's would not be helpful in combatting the Air Force attacks, because so much of the destruction is being done by missiles and artillery. I do understand the relative utility argument, but seems to me that the ability to contest the skies, especially in western Ukraine where people are fleeing and resupply is coming from is really important to sustaining the effort successfully. It's not an either/or.
... agree with you on the MiG issue. I suspect they will turn up there quietly.
Disregard the escalation issue. Do either of you dispute DoD's contention that the UAF is not using the Mig 29's they have & why they are not.
If the UAF wanted to contest the skies, why have they not done so with their Mig 29's & more capable SU-27's.
They are barely flying what they have, but yet they keep asking for the Mig29s. They aren't stupid, they must have their own reasons. Spare parts? There is more going on here than we know.
Send a list of spare parts needed. Easier to get them in than flying the entire plane there.
... agree. So why do the Ukrainians keep asking? I don't think this is just trying to keep pressure on the allies for support given the support we are known to be supplying. Asking without a valid reason backfires ultimately. Ukrainians aren't stupid.
Zelensky is trying to drag us into the fight. That's why he keeps agitating for things he knows we can't do. He knows that is the only way to end it without destroying his country & further devastating his population. He's scapegoating the US so his population won't blame him. No matter how much we do (short of full scale military intervention), it will never be enough & the US will be the villain for not doing more.
... I had considered this. It is plausible. But at this time, I am not buying it. There is more going on than we know I believe.

... Zelensky is trying to have us engage further, that is clear. The entire Ukrainian population is doing that. What I don't buy is he is doing this to scapegoat the US!
You don't speak for the Ukrainian people. The only ones we hear are the few who the tv editors show us. Zelensky assured his people that Putin would not invade, trapping millions of them who could have left the country or depopulated the cities. Had he not raised the Mig issue, they could have sneaked them into the 2 airfields in W Ukraine before they were bombed. If this ends badly, he'll blame the US for encouraging him, then not coming through in the crunch, ...& he'll be right. We should not have given him false hope. We should have pushed him to the Minsk table & let Macron & Merkel make a deal for him. He would have had to renounce a claim to Crimea & Donbass, agree to remain neutral & not join NATO & the EU. He'll be lucky to get that much now, if he survives.
Nor do you. Or for Zelensky.
Like an old ball coach…. They are all undefeated in their new roles…. More blame the USA. Standing up to Russia doesn’t matter anymore. It was Old Soviet’s tag line. He scrubbed it…… the Soviet way.
Yeah, you tough guys would stand & fight until the last babushka is a smoldering heap. They're taking volunteers. Go for it.
Uh huh. It’s the USA’s fault and Putin is right. You have been consistent for years old red one….them peoples is Russians. Not from The Ukraine. His actions are justified.
That's just your BS spin. Fault or innocent, right or wrong, good or bad, do not matter. It's war not a morality play.

You must recognize Putin for what he is, acknowledge what motivates him, pay attention to what he says, anticipate what he's going to do, don't trap him in a corner & don't give him an advantage.

It's not a game, it does not matter who you root for.

We either find a way to peacefully co-exist with Russia & Putin, or we go to war, cold or hot. Enjoy your war & moral superiority.
Do you think you don’t toss around morality and opinion that’s not based in verifiable fact regularly?

Because you do. Frequently. And present it as hard irrefutable fact never acknowledging it’s interpretation and formed opinion.


And whining, repeatedly how others are speaking for people as if there’s no mirrors in your house and then getting bitchy when others point it out?
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Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 34121
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

old salt wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 3:53 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 11:14 am
That’s strange. The military expert here believes The Ukraine is being liberated. It’s not a real country. Those soldiers are fighting for freedom from the USA’s influence.
...& the mass media expert here thinks it a tv game show.
The mass media expert is exposing your years of boot licking. Own it. You defended Putin’s right to take The Ukraine….you implied those people are Russian….. I believe your sentiment was basically if Russia wants to take it, The Ukraine should do something about it…like Mexico wanting to take Texas…. Don’t backtrack now….for years you said standing up to Russia doesn’t matter. It mattered when you were being paid to do it.
Last edited by Typical Lax Dad on Sat Mar 12, 2022 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 34121
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 6:52 pm
old salt wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 3:51 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:26 am
old salt wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 9:39 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:05 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:00 am
old salt wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:38 am
jhu72 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:10 am
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 5:04 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:54 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:49 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:16 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:02 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:30 am I've found way less persuasive some of the reporting bolstering the contention that the MiG's would not be helpful in combatting the Air Force attacks, because so much of the destruction is being done by missiles and artillery. I do understand the relative utility argument, but seems to me that the ability to contest the skies, especially in western Ukraine where people are fleeing and resupply is coming from is really important to sustaining the effort successfully. It's not an either/or.
... agree with you on the MiG issue. I suspect they will turn up there quietly.
Disregard the escalation issue. Do either of you dispute DoD's contention that the UAF is not using the Mig 29's they have & why they are not.
If the UAF wanted to contest the skies, why have they not done so with their Mig 29's & more capable SU-27's.
They are barely flying what they have, but yet they keep asking for the Mig29s. They aren't stupid, they must have their own reasons. Spare parts? There is more going on here than we know.
Send a list of spare parts needed. Easier to get them in than flying the entire plane there.
... agree. So why do the Ukrainians keep asking? I don't think this is just trying to keep pressure on the allies for support given the support we are known to be supplying. Asking without a valid reason backfires ultimately. Ukrainians aren't stupid.
Zelensky is trying to drag us into the fight. That's why he keeps agitating for things he knows we can't do. He knows that is the only way to end it without destroying his country & further devastating his population. He's scapegoating the US so his population won't blame him. No matter how much we do (short of full scale military intervention), it will never be enough & the US will be the villain for not doing more.
... I had considered this. It is plausible. But at this time, I am not buying it. There is more going on than we know I believe.

... Zelensky is trying to have us engage further, that is clear. The entire Ukrainian population is doing that. What I don't buy is he is doing this to scapegoat the US!
You don't speak for the Ukrainian people. The only ones we hear are the few who the tv editors show us. Zelensky assured his people that Putin would not invade, trapping millions of them who could have left the country or depopulated the cities. Had he not raised the Mig issue, they could have sneaked them into the 2 airfields in W Ukraine before they were bombed. If this ends badly, he'll blame the US for encouraging him, then not coming through in the crunch, ...& he'll be right. We should not have given him false hope. We should have pushed him to the Minsk table & let Macron & Merkel make a deal for him. He would have had to renounce a claim to Crimea & Donbass, agree to remain neutral & not join NATO & the EU. He'll be lucky to get that much now, if he survives.
Nor do you. Or for Zelensky.
Like an old ball coach…. They are all undefeated in their new roles…. More blame the USA. Standing up to Russia doesn’t matter anymore. It was Old Soviet’s tag line. He scrubbed it…… the Soviet way.
Yeah, you tough guys would stand & fight until the last babushka is a smoldering heap. They're taking volunteers. Go for it.
Uh huh. It’s the USA’s fault and Putin is right. You have been consistent for years old red one….them peoples is Russians. Not from The Ukraine. His actions are justified.
That's just your BS spin. Fault or innocent, right or wrong, good or bad, do not matter. It's war not a morality play.

You must recognize Putin for what he is, acknowledge what motivates him, pay attention to what he says, anticipate what he's going to do, don't trap him in a corner & don't give him an advantage.

It's not a game, it does not matter who you root for.

We either find a way to peacefully co-exist with Russia & Putin, or we go to war, cold or hot. Enjoy your war & moral superiority.
Do you think you don’t toss around morality and opinion that’s not based in verifiable fact regularly?

Because you do. Frequently. And present it as hard irrefutable fact never acknowledging it’s interpretation and formed opinion.


And whining, repeatedly how others are speaking for people as if there’s no mirrors in your house and then getting bitchy when others point it out?
My first contacts with the Old Clown was his passing off opinions as facts…. And another issue that he doesn’t remember but I do.
“I wish you would!”
Peter Brown
Posts: 12878
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:19 am

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Peter Brown »

Looks like Iran just obliterated a US base in Erbil Iraq with 12 missiles.

US airplanes headed to Teheran to return the favor?

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/150 ... 60193?s=21

Wasn’t Joe just negotiating with this regime this week for more oil? Even though rational actors told him to never negotiate with the Iranians?

The world gets more dangerous by the minute fellas. I trust Lloyd Austin in spite of the woke nonsense. But Milley, no. As far as Joe goes, even less. As far as Trump goes, less than that.

I hope we make it to 2025.
Last edited by Peter Brown on Sat Mar 12, 2022 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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