All Things Russia & Ukraine

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Essexfenwick
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Essexfenwick »

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 1:07 pm Of course the difference is:

Zucker is gone from CNN and WarnerMedia, C Cuomo was fired, and A Cuomo resigned prior to being impeached by his own party.

Meanwhile ~70% of Republicans want Trump to run in 2024 and 61% support pardoning the 1/6 insurrectionists. link

And the difference couldn't be more stark.

Plus 90 percent of 54 gender liberals and VaxTards want to get on a plane right now and join the Ukrainian freedom fighters. When they most assuredly do that then nobody will ever call them pussies anymore (although still have the “really confused” stigma)
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NattyBohChamps04
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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Small business properties are under attack in Ukraine by Russian Communists and ANTIFA! They need your help to defend them!

Load up your soft armor and AR and have your mom drop you off! :lol:
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Kismet
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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Interesting story today - Putin arrests many folks including the two top people in the 5th Directorate of the FSB (Operational Information and International Relations), in charge of foreign intelligence of the FSB, including in Ukraine, has been raided by the both FSO, Federal Protective Service of the Russian Federation ФСО – Putin’s own security service along with the 9th Directorate of the FSB (Internal Security for the FSB). Head of the FSB’s 5th Directorate, Colonel General Sergei Beseda (born 1954), and his deputy, Anatoly Bolyukh (born 1956), have been arrested.

This along with news that another Major General killed was in action in Ukraine indicate that all is not well at the Kremlin.

Perhaps the Russian crocodile starts eating its own tail. :oops: :oops:

Zelinskyy also tells Israeli PM Naftali Bennett to kiss off and that he won't be surrendering to the Russians as Bennett suggested to him.

Lastly, this the past week, the severing of Russia from the global internet went one layer deeper. Two of the world's largest internet service providers, Lumen Technologies and Cogent Communications, said they would block Russian customers from their networks over fears that their networks could be used by the Russian government for cyberattacks against the West. But a knock-on effect is that it will be even harder for citizens in the country to use the worldwide web.
Last edited by Kismet on Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Brooklyn »

There Is No Wisdom in Pretending That Ukraine's Neo-Nazis Don't Exist
The troubling history and dangerous U.S. relationship with the Azov Battalion and other extreme right-wing groups in Ukraine cannot be forgotten.



https://www.commondreams.org/views/2022 ... dont-exist


Russian President Putin has claimed that he ordered the invasion of Ukraine to "denazify" its government, while Western officials, such as former U.S. Ambassador to Moscow Michael McFaul, have called this pure propaganda, insisting, "There are no Nazis in Ukraine."

In the context of the Russian invasion, the post-2014 Ukrainian government's problematic relations with extreme right-wing groups and neo-Nazi parties has become an incendiary element on both sides of the propaganda war, with Russia exaggerating it as a pretext for war and the West trying to sweep it under the carpet.

We should not be surprised when the U.S. alliance with neo-Nazi proxy forces in Ukraine, including the infusion of billions of dollars in sophisticated weapons, results in similarly violent and destructive blowback.

The reality behind the propaganda is that the West and its Ukrainian allies have opportunistically exploited and empowered the extreme right in Ukraine, first to pull off the 2014 coup and then by redirecting it to fight separatists in Eastern Ukraine. And far from "denazifying" Ukraine, the Russian invasion is likely to further empower Ukrainian and international neo-Nazis, as it attracts fighters from around the world and provides them with weapons, military training and the combat experience that many of them are hungry for.

Ukraine's neo-Nazi Svoboda Party and its founders Oleh Tyahnybok and Andriy Parubiy played leading roles in the U.S-backed coup in February 2014. Assistant Secretary Nuland and Ambassador Pyatt mentioned Tyahnybok as one of the leaders they were working with on their infamous leaked phone call before the coup, even as they tried to exclude him from an official position in the post-coup government.

As formerly peaceful protests in Kyiv gave way to pitched battles with police and violent, armed marches to try to break through police barricades and reach the Parliament building, Svoboda members and the newly-formed Right Sector militia, led by Dmytro Yarosh, battled police, spearheaded marches and raided a police armory for weapons. By mid-February 2014, these men with guns were the de facto leaders of the Maidan movement.

We will never know what kind of political transition peaceful protests alone would have led to in Ukraine or how different the new government would have been if a peaceful political process had been allowed to take its course, without interference by the United States or violent right-wing extremists.

But it was Yarosh who took to the stage in the Maidan and rejected the February 21, 2014 agreement negotiated by the French, German and Polish foreign ministers, under which Yanukovich and opposition political leaders agreed to hold new elections later that year. Instead, Yarosh and Right Sector refused to disarm and led the climactic march on Parliament that overthrew the government.

Since 1991, Ukrainian elections had swung back and forth between leaders like President Viktor Yanukovych, who was from Donetsk and had close ties with Russia, and Western-backed leaders like President Yushchenko, who was elected in 2005 after the "Orange Revolution" that followed a disputed election. Ukraine's endemic corruption tainted every government, and rapid public disillusionment with whichever leader and party won power led to a see-saw between Western- and Russian-aligned factions.

In 2014, Nuland and the State Department got their favorite, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, installed as Prime Minister of the post-coup government. He lasted two years, until he, too, lost his job due to endless corruption scandals. Petro Poroshenko, the post-coup President, lasted a bit longer, until 2019, even after his personal tax evasion schemes were exposed in the 2016 Panama Papers and 2017 Paradise Papers.

When Yatsenyuk became Prime Minister, he rewarded Svoboda's role in the coup with three cabinet positions, including Oleksander Sych as Deputy Prime Minister, and governorships of three of Ukraine's 25 provinces. Svoboda's Andriy Parubiy was appointed Chairman (or speaker) of Parliament, a post he held for the next 5 years. Tyahnybok ran for president in 2014, but only got 1.2% of the votes, and was not re-elected to Parliament.

Ukrainian voters turned their backs on the extreme-right in the 2014 post-coup elections, reducing Svoboda's 10.4% share of the national vote in 2012 to 4.7%. Svoboda lost support in areas where it held control of local governments but had failed to live up to its promises, and its support was split now that it was no longer the only party running on explicitly anti-Russian slogans and rhetoric.

After the coup, Right Sector helped to consolidate the new order by attacking and breaking up anti-coup protests, in what their leader Yarosh described to Newsweek as a "war" to "cleanse the country" of pro-Russian protesters. This campaign climaxed on May 2nd with the massacre of 42 anti-coup protesters in a fiery inferno, after they took shelter from Right Sector attackers in the Trades Unions House in Odessa.

After anti-coup protests evolved into declarations of independence in Donetsk and Luhansk, the extreme right in Ukraine shifted gear to full-scale armed combat. The Ukrainian military had little enthusiasm for fighting its own people, so the government formed new National Guard units to do so.

Right Sector formed a battalion, and neo-Nazis also dominated the Azov Battalion, which was founded by Andriy Biletsky, an avowed white supremacist who claimed that Ukraine's national purpose was to rid the country of Jews and other inferior races. It was the Azov battalion that led the post-coup government's assault on the self-declared republics and retook the city of Mariupol from separatist forces.

The Minsk II agreement in 2015 ended the worst fighting and set up a buffer zone around the breakaway republics, but a low-intensity civil war continued. An estimated 14,000 people have been killed since 2014. Congressman Ro Khanna and progressive members of Congress tried for several years to end U.S. military aid to the Azov Battalion. They finally did so in the FY2018 Defense Appropriation Bill, but Azov reportedly continued to receive U.S. arms and training despite the ban.

In 2019, the Soufan Center, which tracks terrorist and extremist groups around the world, warned, "The Azov Battalion is emerging as a critical node in the transnational right-wing violent extremist network… (Its) aggressive approach to networking serves one of the Azov Battalion's overarching objectives, to transform areas under its control in Ukraine into the primary hub for transnational white supremacy."

The Soufan Center described how the Azov Battalion's "aggressive networking" reaches around the world to recruit fighters and spread its white supremacist ideology. Foreign fighters who train and fight with the Azov Battalion then return to their own countries to apply what they have learned and recruit others.

Violent foreign extremists with links to Azov have included Brenton Tarrant, who massacred 51 worshippers at a mosque in Christchurch in New Zealand in 2019, and several members of the U.S. Rise Above Movement who were prosecuted for attacking counter-protestors at the "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville in August 2017. Other Azov veterans have returned to Australia, Brazil, Germany, Italy, Norway, Sweden, the U.K. and other countries.

Despite Svoboda's declining success in national elections, neo-Nazi and extreme nationalist groups, increasingly linked to the Azov Battalion, have maintained power on the street in Ukraine, and in local politics in the Ukrainian nationalist heartland around Lviv in Western Ukraine.

After President Zelensky's election in 2019, the extreme right threatened him with removal from office, or even death, if he negotiated with separatist leaders from Donbas and followed through on the Minsk Protocol. Zelensky had run for election as a "peace candidate," but under threat from the right, he refused to even talk to Donbas leaders, whom he dismissed as terrorists.

During Trump's presidency, the United States reversed Obama's ban on weapons sales to Ukraine, and Zelensky's aggressive rhetoric raised new fears in Donbas and Russia that he was building up Ukraine's forces for a new offensive to retake Donetsk and Luhansk by force.

The civil war has combined with the government's neoliberal economic policies to create fertile ground for the extreme right. The post-coup government imposed more of the same neoliberal "shock therapy" that was imposed throughout Eastern Europe in the 1990s. Ukraine received a $40 billion IMF bailout and, as part of the deal, privatized 342 state-owned enterprises; reduced public sector employment by 20%, along with salary and pension cuts; privatized healthcare, and disinvested in public education, closing 60% of its universities.

Coupled with Ukraine's endemic corruption, these policies led to the profitable looting of state assets by the corrupt ruling class, and to falling living standards and austerity measures for everybody else. The post-coup government upheld Poland as its model, but the reality was closer to Yeltsin's Russia in the 1990s. After a nearly 25% fall in GDP between 2012 and 2016, Ukraine is still the poorest country in Europe.

As elsewhere, the failures of neoliberalism have fueled the rise of right-wing extremism and racism, and now the war with Russia promises to provide thousands of alienated young men from around the world with military training and combat experience, which they can then take home to terrorize their own countries.

The Soufan Center has compared the Azov Battalion's international networking strategy to that of Al Qaeda and ISIS. U.S. and NATO support for the Azov Battalion poses similar risks as their support for Al Qaeda-linked groups in Syria ten years ago. Those chickens quickly came home to roost when they spawned ISIS and turned decisively against their Western backers.

Right now, Ukrainians are united in their resistance to Russia's invasion, but we should not be surprised when the U.S. alliance with neo-Nazi proxy forces in Ukraine, including the infusion of billions of dollars in sophisticated weapons, results in similarly violent and destructive blowback.

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Medea Benjamin, co-founder of Global Exchange and CODEPINK: Women for Peace, is the author of the 2018 book, "Inside Iran: The Real History and Politics of the Islamic Republic of Iran." Her previous books include: "Kingdom of the Unjust: Behind the U.S.-Saudi Connection" (2016); "Drone Warfare: Killing by Remote Control" (2013); "Don’t Be Afraid Gringo: A Honduran Woman Speaks from the Heart" (1989), and (with Jodie Evans) "Stop the Next War Now (Inner Ocean Action Guide)" (2005).




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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:02 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:30 am I've found way less persuasive some of the reporting bolstering the contention that the MiG's would not be helpful in combatting the Air Force attacks, because so much of the destruction is being done by missiles and artillery. I do understand the relative utility argument, but seems to me that the ability to contest the skies, especially in western Ukraine where people are fleeing and resupply is coming from is really important to sustaining the effort successfully. It's not an either/or.
... agree with you on the MiG issue. I suspect they will turn up there quietly.
Disregard the escalation issue. Do either of you dispute DoD's contention that the UAF is not using the Mig 29's they have & why they are not.
If the UAF wanted to contest the skies, why have they not done so with their Mig 29's & more capable SU-27's.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

kramerica.inc wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:47 am With all due respect, MD, are you an undercover moderator? Have you been tasked by Matt to steer conversations to amicable ends?

Because your repeated sharing on the worth/value of posts/people in a mod-free forum is quite simply, not called for, not needed, and off-topic.

And I do say that with the utmost sincerity and respect. And with the understanding of the irony of me correcting (moderating) people for, well, moderating people.

:!: :?: :lol:
And I'll take that critique with the sincerity, respect and irony noted. ;)

No, I don't have any more right than anyone else to ask that folks have civil discussions on the thread topics, especially ones, that at least IMO, call for seriousness and not partisan motivated screeds.

Plenty of room for disagreement in constructive, civil discussions.

You're free to disagree of course, but my view is that those who contribute to the discussions in some sort of constructive way are far more preferred than those simply trying to incite anger.

And I have zero power to enforce any of my views on civil discussions...but I'll continue to express them, hopefully as politely as I can muster.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:02 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:30 am I've found way less persuasive some of the reporting bolstering the contention that the MiG's would not be helpful in combatting the Air Force attacks, because so much of the destruction is being done by missiles and artillery. I do understand the relative utility argument, but seems to me that the ability to contest the skies, especially in western Ukraine where people are fleeing and resupply is coming from is really important to sustaining the effort successfully. It's not an either/or.
... agree with you on the MiG issue. I suspect they will turn up there quietly.
Disregard the escalation issue. Do either of you dispute DoD's contention that the UAF is not using the Mig 29's they have & why they are not.
If the UAF wanted to contest the skies, why have they not done so with their Mig 29's & more capable SU-27's.
I'm sure that's a fair question, though I don't know that there isn't a good explanation, nor that they are in fact not using the weaponry they have to full effect. I'd need to know more to even agree or disagree that our DoD is contending so. And what they explain in return.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:08 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:02 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:30 am I've found way less persuasive some of the reporting bolstering the contention that the MiG's would not be helpful in combatting the Air Force attacks, because so much of the destruction is being done by missiles and artillery. I do understand the relative utility argument, but seems to me that the ability to contest the skies, especially in western Ukraine where people are fleeing and resupply is coming from is really important to sustaining the effort successfully. It's not an either/or.
... agree with you on the MiG issue. I suspect they will turn up there quietly.
Disregard the escalation issue. Do either of you dispute DoD's contention that the UAF is not using the Mig 29's they have & why they are not.
If the UAF wanted to contest the skies, why have they not done so with their Mig 29's & more capable SU-27's.
I'm sure that's a fair question, though I don't know that there isn't a good explanation, nor that they are in fact not using the weaponry they have to full effect. I'd need to know more to even agree or disagree that our DoD is contending so. And what they explain in return.
In his Pentagon press briefings, Adm Kirby has said, more than once, that the UAF still has several operational fighter squadrons that they are not using to, in effect, contest the skies.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:14 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:08 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:02 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:30 am I've found way less persuasive some of the reporting bolstering the contention that the MiG's would not be helpful in combatting the Air Force attacks, because so much of the destruction is being done by missiles and artillery. I do understand the relative utility argument, but seems to me that the ability to contest the skies, especially in western Ukraine where people are fleeing and resupply is coming from is really important to sustaining the effort successfully. It's not an either/or.
... agree with you on the MiG issue. I suspect they will turn up there quietly.
Disregard the escalation issue. Do either of you dispute DoD's contention that the UAF is not using the Mig 29's they have & why they are not.
If the UAF wanted to contest the skies, why have they not done so with their Mig 29's & more capable SU-27's.
I'm sure that's a fair question, though I don't know that there isn't a good explanation, nor that they are in fact not using the weaponry they have to full effect. I'd need to know more to even agree or disagree that our DoD is contending so. And what they explain in return.
In his Pentagon press briefings, Adm Kirby has said, more than once, that the UAF still has several operational fighter squadrons that they are not using to, in effect, contest the skies.
I'm probably mistaken, or under informed, but my impression from his briefings (haven't seen them all or in their entirety necessarily) is that he's emphasized that the Russian Air Force hasn't played a preeminent role, that Ukraine does have some planes (but not that they weren't being used), and that the US thinks other air defenses would be much preferable to taking a potentially escalatory action.

I haven't heard an actual critique from Kirby that the Ukrainian AF wasn't doing what it could to combat the Russian AF...just that doing so wouldn't make a huge difference given the primary usage of missiles from afar and artillery fire.

Again, I'm probably under informed on this.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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Essexfenwick wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 1:15 pm Plus 90 percent of 54 gender liberals and VaxTards want to get on a plane right now and join the Ukrainian freedom fighters. When they most assuredly do that then nobody will ever call them pussies anymore (although still have the “really confused” stigma)
Essex, with this post and otherwise, you're wading into the realm of trolling. Fair warning...
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:20 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:14 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:08 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:02 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:30 am I've found way less persuasive some of the reporting bolstering the contention that the MiG's would not be helpful in combatting the Air Force attacks, because so much of the destruction is being done by missiles and artillery. I do understand the relative utility argument, but seems to me that the ability to contest the skies, especially in western Ukraine where people are fleeing and resupply is coming from is really important to sustaining the effort successfully. It's not an either/or.
... agree with you on the MiG issue. I suspect they will turn up there quietly.
Disregard the escalation issue. Do either of you dispute DoD's contention that the UAF is not using the Mig 29's they have & why they are not.
If the UAF wanted to contest the skies, why have they not done so with their Mig 29's & more capable SU-27's.
I'm sure that's a fair question, though I don't know that there isn't a good explanation, nor that they are in fact not using the weaponry they have to full effect. I'd need to know more to even agree or disagree that our DoD is contending so. And what they explain in return.
In his Pentagon press briefings, Adm Kirby has said, more than once, that the UAF still has several operational fighter squadrons that they are not using to, in effect, contest the skies.
I'm probably mistaken, or under informed, but my impression from his briefings (haven't seen them all or in their entirety necessarily) is that he's emphasized that the Russian Air Force hasn't played a preeminent role, that Ukraine does have some planes (but not that they weren't being used), and that the US thinks other air defenses would be much preferable to taking a potentially escalatory action.

I haven't heard an actual critique from Kirby that the Ukrainian AF wasn't doing what it could to combat the Russian AF...just that doing so wouldn't make a huge difference given the primary usage of missiles from afar and artillery fire.

Again, I'm probably under informed on this.
FNC Pentagon reporter just said : " Senior US defense official said UAF still has 56 working fighter jets, flying 5-10 sorties/day. This war is not being fought in the air. Even Russian warplanes are having a tough time flying over Ukraine, except in the east, because Ukrainian forces are artfully* using their mobile* air defense systems. Sending the Polish Migs would not stop the siege of the population centers because the airspace is so contested."

* my interpretation of artfully & mobile = shoot & scoot
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Peter Brown »

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 1:07 pm Of course the difference is:

Zucker is gone from CNN and WarnerMedia, C Cuomo was fired, and A Cuomo resigned prior to being impeached by his own party.

Meanwhile ~70% of Republicans want Trump to run in 2024 and 61% support pardoning the 1/6 insurrectionists. link

And the difference couldn't be more stark.



You realize none of the three who ‘no longer work at CNN’ were fired for journalistic lapses, right?

Before you say ‘but Cuomo was’, try again.

The network said it had “terminated him, effective immediately,” a move that came days after a lawyer for a former colleague accused the host of sexual misconduct.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/04/busi ... d-cnn.html

Media partisanship skewing left is candyland-easy to demonstrate, tbh. Everyone knows it, it’s just that few Democrats are willing to swallow pride and admit so publicly.

The actual ‘differences that couldn’t be more stark’ involve crime, war, inflation, and the woke agenda.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by jhu72 »

old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:02 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:30 am I've found way less persuasive some of the reporting bolstering the contention that the MiG's would not be helpful in combatting the Air Force attacks, because so much of the destruction is being done by missiles and artillery. I do understand the relative utility argument, but seems to me that the ability to contest the skies, especially in western Ukraine where people are fleeing and resupply is coming from is really important to sustaining the effort successfully. It's not an either/or.
... agree with you on the MiG issue. I suspect they will turn up there quietly.
Disregard the escalation issue. Do either of you dispute DoD's contention that the UAF is not using the Mig 29's they have & why they are not.
If the UAF wanted to contest the skies, why have they not done so with their Mig 29's & more capable SU-27's.
They are barely flying what they have, but yet they keep asking for the Mig29s. They aren't stupid, they must have their own reasons. Spare parts? There is more going on here than we know.
Last edited by jhu72 on Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by jhu72 »

admin wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:30 pm
Essexfenwick wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 1:15 pm Plus 90 percent of 54 gender liberals and VaxTards want to get on a plane right now and join the Ukrainian freedom fighters. When they most assuredly do that then nobody will ever call them pussies anymore (although still have the “really confused” stigma)
Essex, with this post and otherwise, you're wading into the realm of trolling. Fair warning...
:lol: :lol: ... just wading?
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by NattyBohChamps04 »

Peter Brown wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:53 pm The actual ‘differences that couldn’t be more stark’ involve crime, war, inflation, and the woke agenda.
Crime, like wanting a guy who hired tons of criminals to help run his campaign and staff to run again! Supporting multiple congressmen and women who have been arrested and break the law and molest kids. Whoops

War, like cheering Putin on and wanting to break up NATO. Constantly undermining Biden and hoping he and America fails. Whoops

Inflation, like printing trillions out of thin air to give to their elite buddies, increasing spending and lowering taxes and keeping worker wages stagnant. Whoops.

Woke agenda, like preventing pregnant women from crossing state borders, preventing women who have been raped by their uncle from having an abortion, preventing women with life-threatening pregnancies from having an abortion, making it illegal to discuss American history or the makeup of a nuclear family because it may hurt your feelings, suing teachers if they say something that contradicts a students religious beliefs? Whoops.

You really hit the nail on the head there my man.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:16 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:02 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:30 am I've found way less persuasive some of the reporting bolstering the contention that the MiG's would not be helpful in combatting the Air Force attacks, because so much of the destruction is being done by missiles and artillery. I do understand the relative utility argument, but seems to me that the ability to contest the skies, especially in western Ukraine where people are fleeing and resupply is coming from is really important to sustaining the effort successfully. It's not an either/or.
... agree with you on the MiG issue. I suspect they will turn up there quietly.
Disregard the escalation issue. Do either of you dispute DoD's contention that the UAF is not using the Mig 29's they have & why they are not.
If the UAF wanted to contest the skies, why have they not done so with their Mig 29's & more capable SU-27's.
They are barely flying what they have, but yet they keep asking for the Mig29s. They aren't stupid, they must have their own reasons. Spare parts? There is more going on here than we know.
Send a list of spare parts needed. Easier to get them in than flying the entire plane there.
Zelensky want's to drag us into the fighting. That's why he keeps pressuring for things we can't do.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by jhu72 »

old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:49 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:16 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:02 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:30 am I've found way less persuasive some of the reporting bolstering the contention that the MiG's would not be helpful in combatting the Air Force attacks, because so much of the destruction is being done by missiles and artillery. I do understand the relative utility argument, but seems to me that the ability to contest the skies, especially in western Ukraine where people are fleeing and resupply is coming from is really important to sustaining the effort successfully. It's not an either/or.
... agree with you on the MiG issue. I suspect they will turn up there quietly.
Disregard the escalation issue. Do either of you dispute DoD's contention that the UAF is not using the Mig 29's they have & why they are not.
If the UAF wanted to contest the skies, why have they not done so with their Mig 29's & more capable SU-27's.
They are barely flying what they have, but yet they keep asking for the Mig29s. They aren't stupid, they must have their own reasons. Spare parts? There is more going on here than we know.
Send a list of spare parts needed. Easier to get them in than flying the entire plane there.
... agree. So why do the Ukrainians keep asking? I don't think this is just trying to keep pressure on the allies for support given the support we are known to be supplying. Asking without a valid reason backfires ultimately. Ukrainians aren't stupid.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:54 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:49 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:16 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:02 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:30 am I've found way less persuasive some of the reporting bolstering the contention that the MiG's would not be helpful in combatting the Air Force attacks, because so much of the destruction is being done by missiles and artillery. I do understand the relative utility argument, but seems to me that the ability to contest the skies, especially in western Ukraine where people are fleeing and resupply is coming from is really important to sustaining the effort successfully. It's not an either/or.
... agree with you on the MiG issue. I suspect they will turn up there quietly.
Disregard the escalation issue. Do either of you dispute DoD's contention that the UAF is not using the Mig 29's they have & why they are not.
If the UAF wanted to contest the skies, why have they not done so with their Mig 29's & more capable SU-27's.
They are barely flying what they have, but yet they keep asking for the Mig29s. They aren't stupid, they must have their own reasons. Spare parts? There is more going on here than we know.
Send a list of spare parts needed. Easier to get them in than flying the entire plane there.
... agree. So why do the Ukrainians keep asking? I don't think this is just trying to keep pressure on the allies for support given the support we are known to be supplying. Asking without a valid reason backfires ultimately. Ukrainians aren't stupid.
Zelensky is trying to drag us into the fight. That's why he keeps agitating for things he knows we can't do. He knows that is the only way to end it without destroying his country & further devastating his population. He's scapegoating the US so his population won't blame him. No matter how much we do (short of full scale military intervention), it will never be enough & the US will be the villain for not doing more.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:46 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:20 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:14 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:08 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:02 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:30 am I've found way less persuasive some of the reporting bolstering the contention that the MiG's would not be helpful in combatting the Air Force attacks, because so much of the destruction is being done by missiles and artillery. I do understand the relative utility argument, but seems to me that the ability to contest the skies, especially in western Ukraine where people are fleeing and resupply is coming from is really important to sustaining the effort successfully. It's not an either/or.
... agree with you on the MiG issue. I suspect they will turn up there quietly.
Disregard the escalation issue. Do either of you dispute DoD's contention that the UAF is not using the Mig 29's they have & why they are not.
If the UAF wanted to contest the skies, why have they not done so with their Mig 29's & more capable SU-27's.
I'm sure that's a fair question, though I don't know that there isn't a good explanation, nor that they are in fact not using the weaponry they have to full effect. I'd need to know more to even agree or disagree that our DoD is contending so. And what they explain in return.
In his Pentagon press briefings, Adm Kirby has said, more than once, that the UAF still has several operational fighter squadrons that they are not using to, in effect, contest the skies.
I'm probably mistaken, or under informed, but my impression from his briefings (haven't seen them all or in their entirety necessarily) is that he's emphasized that the Russian Air Force hasn't played a preeminent role, that Ukraine does have some planes (but not that they weren't being used), and that the US thinks other air defenses would be much preferable to taking a potentially escalatory action.

I haven't heard an actual critique from Kirby that the Ukrainian AF wasn't doing what it could to combat the Russian AF...just that doing so wouldn't make a huge difference given the primary usage of missiles from afar and artillery fire.

Again, I'm probably under informed on this.
FNC Pentagon reporter just said : " Senior US defense official said UAF still has 56 working fighter jets, flying 5-10 sorties/day. This war is not being fought in the air. Even Russian warplanes are having a tough time flying over Ukraine, except in the east, because Ukrainian forces are artfully* using their mobile* air defense systems. Sending the Polish Migs would not stop the siege of the population centers because the airspace is so contested."

* my interpretation of artfully & mobile = shoot & scoot
ok, sounds like they're being used. But are they not flying more sorties because "the airspace is so contested" meaning that they'd be outnumbered?

And we're seeing reports of Russian AF now reaching to western areas for bombing runs...sure would want to "contest" that action.

Another question, seems to me is how well these fighters can be used to attack supply lines, tank, troop movements. Particularly, for instance, the effort by the Russian ground forces to move westward of Kyiv, potentially cutting off resupply.

Seems to me you'd want to attack those efforts best as possible. Again, I like the idea of drones, but whatever gets firepower striking hard, making it extremely difficult for the Russians to encircle, works for me.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:54 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:49 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:16 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:03 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:02 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:30 am I've found way less persuasive some of the reporting bolstering the contention that the MiG's would not be helpful in combatting the Air Force attacks, because so much of the destruction is being done by missiles and artillery. I do understand the relative utility argument, but seems to me that the ability to contest the skies, especially in western Ukraine where people are fleeing and resupply is coming from is really important to sustaining the effort successfully. It's not an either/or.
... agree with you on the MiG issue. I suspect they will turn up there quietly.
Disregard the escalation issue. Do either of you dispute DoD's contention that the UAF is not using the Mig 29's they have & why they are not.
If the UAF wanted to contest the skies, why have they not done so with their Mig 29's & more capable SU-27's.
They are barely flying what they have, but yet they keep asking for the Mig29s. They aren't stupid, they must have their own reasons. Spare parts? There is more going on here than we know.
Send a list of spare parts needed. Easier to get them in than flying the entire plane there.
... agree. So why do the Ukrainians keep asking? I don't think this is just trying to keep pressure on the allies for support given the support we are known to be supplying. Asking without a valid reason backfires ultimately. Ukrainians aren't stupid.
Zelensky is trying to drag us into the fight. That's why he keeps agitating for things he knows we can't do. He knows that is the only way to end it without destroying his country & further devastating his population. He's scapegoating the US so his population won't blame him. No matter how much we do (short of full scale military intervention), it will never be enough & the US will be the villain for not doing more.
well...that's a rather dark interpretation, one that doesn't really seem fair to how he's handled the relationship. Sure, he wants as much help as possible, as soon as possible...no doubt. But this "scapegoating" thing seems over the top, I don't get that sense at all. It's not as if his next election cycle is a priority.

Seems to me that it's important to keep in-country fighting morale up, not be seen as whining that he can't get more help....which would hurt morale. I do, however, think they're asking for resources that they know they won't get 100% in order to get every darn thing they can...including all sorts of clandestine help. The public pressure is to help the western governments, democracies, feel the pressure from their own voters, providing cover for what they do indeed do to support.
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