Johns Hopkins 2022

[runrussellrun]

WDGSR. You don’t have enough data to support the claim imo. The yearly cost is about 70k all in.

There are folks who believe finances play a significant role in narrowing choice

Not sure this time of year that a discussion of Hopkins' relative affordability and admission requirements is appropriate, as we have at least two thirds of the year without much actual lax to discuss...

...but seems to me that Hopkins now has excellent affordability metrics for those with need, thanks to Bloomberg, comparable to Ivies, that place Hop more affordable than 'out of state' for quite a few state universities. Maybe not more affordable than 'in-state' but for those with substantial need, yes.

Admission requirements are significantly higher for the DIII athletes at Hop, but that doesn't appear to be applied the same way to lax.

So, I don't think there's a disadvantage.
But there is a lot of competition.

No idea whether these coaches will get Hop into top contention given time, but I don't think there's any of those affordability reasons why Hop can't be akin to the top Ivy competitors' level, which includes, quarters, final 4 and NC possibilities.

Or, howz about you let people discuss what they want to, when they want to.

the thread "nanny" act is tiring.........



....and comically, chiming into the very conversation you condemn.

Of course people can, and will, discuss whatever they darn well want...but seems to me that we have plenty of time to discuss that sort of topic other times of the year....that's simply my opinion...but go ahead and track every post I make and go into personal attack mode...so persuasive.

And yeah, IMO, Hopkins can do just fine given its affordability and admission requirements.

Meanwhile, I'd recommend focusing on the current team, players and coaches, and root for them to do their best.

But if folks want to continue to chew on this bone, that's up to them.

"...track every post..."

embarrassing.

[HopFan16]

PS - what ever happened to Martin? Seems like he's fallen out of favor and I'm not sure why.

Not sure what you mean. He's out there a ton. Pretty sure he's playing his normal amount.

Did you mean Jennings? I noticed that Rodgers was the #2 LSM against UVA. For a second I thought Jennings might be hurt because I don't think we saw him at all in the first half but then he made a few appearances later on.

[Ruffled_Feathers]

I don't know if Rodgers was actually being used as the #2 LSM but rather he was the guy who started taking draws in the 1st half when it got especially messy at the dot. Maybe he faced off in high school or coaches decided to tap him this week as "the guy" for that situation.

[HopFan16]

I don't know if Rodgers was actually being used as the #2 LSM but rather he was the guy who started taking draws in the 1st half when it got especially messy at the dot. Maybe he faced off in high school or coaches decided to tap him this week as "the guy" for that situation.

Nah he was playing a lot early on, well before they had him take any draws

[nyjay]

PS - what ever happened to Martin? Seems like he's fallen out of favor and I'm not sure why.

Not sure what you mean. He's out there a ton. Pretty sure he's playing his normal amount.

Did you mean Jennings? I noticed that Rodgers was the #2 LSM against UVA. For a second I thought Jennings might be hurt because I don't think we saw him at all in the first half but then he made a few appearances later on.

I haven't seen or noticed Martin much recently. Seems to me like we're seeing less of him and more of Lilly and Jaronski. I thought I saw more of Martin in the second half this week. Maybe it's just me and I haven't noticed him because he's not the one getting beaten.

[GSP]

Do the faithful here think Hop will still be in the top 20 tomorrow?

23 on the Power Ranking:
http://college.laxpower2.com/menx/rating01.php

Laxpower rankings are a pathetic joke.
Notre Dame is ranked as #4 in the nation! ND is (1and 2) with its only win coming against that perennial powerhouse Detroit Mercy and is ranked #32 in RPI, #17 in SOS, and #22 in QWF, yet they are ranked #4. They are 4 slots ahead of Cornell which is 4 and 0 and are ranked #1 in RPI, #3 in SOS, and #3 in QWF.
Garbage in, Garbage out.

[HopFan16]

PS - what ever happened to Martin? Seems like he's fallen out of favor and I'm not sure why.

Not sure what you mean. He's out there a ton. Pretty sure he's playing his normal amount.

Did you mean Jennings? I noticed that Rodgers was the #2 LSM against UVA. For a second I thought Jennings might be hurt because I don't think we saw him at all in the first half but then he made a few appearances later on.

I haven't seen or noticed Martin much recently. Seems to me like we're seeing less of him and more of Lilly and Jaronski. I thought I saw more of Martin in the second half this week. Maybe it's just me and I haven't noticed him because he's not the one getting beaten.

It's possible they dialed back his wing participation a bit in an effort to keep him fresh deeper into games but I haven't noticed him playing any less defense. He pairs with Shure as the first group and they seem to rotate fairly evenly with the Lilly/Jaronski pairing, while Mabbett sneaks in there occasionally.

I will say that when we wear the white numbers on light blue jerseys, in the sun, it can be hard to read #s so more than once I was squinting to make sure I had the right guy. Whoever was keeping score for UVA likely had the same issue because that box score was riddled with errors.

[Big Dog]

WDGSR. You don’t have enough data to support the claim imo. The yearly cost is about 70k all in.

There are folks who believe finances play a significant role in narrowing choice

WDGSR is essentially correct. With the Bloomberg donation, Hopkins' need-based aid is up there with the most generous US colleges, i.e., HYPS. Famiies earning over $150k can qualify for some Bloomberg (need-based) cash. Better need-based aid than Duke, ND, Cornell & 'Cuse, to name a few, and nearly every other private. The Hop (and other competitors) also offer D1 schollies and merit aid, which the Ivies do not. Virginia state law is extremely strict about instate vs. OOS tuition (~$74k all-in). Believe Carolina is similarly restrictive in OOS tuition ($55k all-in) rules. Yes UNC is cheaper at sticker, but Hopkins' generous aid lowers teh cost for all but wealthy families.

[HillsLax]

"Who doesnt' remember the "systemic" sports writers, lambasting Moses Malone for going pro out of HIGH school, forgoing all that "free" education. More like Maryland hoops tickets sales and apparel benefitting, but the point IS scholarships.

what is the useless n$aa's philosophy behind scholarships, for any sport? to provide opportunities to those that are economically unforutnate, and getting educations to make our society better ?

Or, to divide the 12.6 mens scholarships amongst 50 families, giving $1k or $500 drips and drabs scholarships to "preferrred " walkons, on helping the $wells at cocktail parties proof, that they are NOT lying, about getting a Hopkins lacrosse scholarship.

Thought the n$aa put Hopkins on probation for some paperwork violations, or was that "enforced " last season.

What IS the purpose of scholarship allotments, if only the upper middle class is benefitting.

n$aa has got to put an end to this scholarship pie, rich kid "preferred walkons".

Lacrosse a "non-revenue" spor"

Useless blather. Why not discuss something about which you have a modicum of knowledge?

[OCanada]

Answered my own question

[HopFan16]

It would be illustrative to see a comparison between say UNC with instate tuition and Hopkins at 70k giving a net.

No it wouldn't

[steel_hop]

As 51 alluded to I think you need to give a bit of a pass to this Hopkins freshman class. When Milliman took over all of the top recruits were already committed.

Correct. His first real class comes in next year and even then I would call it a full on recruiting class given the restrictions COVID placed on all the coaches and players. So much of what you see out there are the same guys that Petro had (minus some guys that graduated and some recruits that stayed committed) so not sure why people expect it to be too different. Petro's evaluation on recruits and focus on ER is why he is no longer coaching at Hopkins. Guys don't grow magically bigger, faster, or stronger or more talented because he's not the coach anymore. There are just too many guys that are just sort of the same - particularly on offense. And too many of those guys just plain aren't good enough to be major contributors at this level.

I'd imagine next year will be very similar to this year (COVID pushes alot of this back). However, it should be a younger team with more youth playing. What you would like to see is an offense that has become more dynamic because it really is not very good right now. Maybe the team will gel more over the season but what I've watched hasn't been good. It is clear Hopkins is struggling how to attack teams because there really is no guy out there that can just be the man. At the UNC/UVA like level there is no guy to get the defense moving on slides. The offense just isn't dangerouns. It has been that way for a number of years.

[OCanada]

Hopfan 16. Why would it not be illustrative to look at a comparison ?

[MDlaxfan76]

Your point seems to be that the Bloomberg gift can be used as a supplement for athletes.

Bloomberg has never funded athletic related activities.

After the 2008 financial debacle hit the country Hopkins found itself accepting less qualified students who could afford the tuition as opposed to more qualified students who could not. Hopkins wanted to reverse that situation.

The purpose of the Bloomberg gift was to enable that to happen. That is, to allow highly qualified students to attend regardless of financial standing.

Bloomberg gave a restricted gift eg it defines eligibility. Once defined it has to have a process. Given the Bloomberg history and the purpose of the gift i believe it is a stretch to think there are not guidelines attached but maybe there are none. In order to know the language of the gift needs go be public. Personally i would like to read it tho i co know someone who might have it.

About the same time Hopkins did away with preferences for kids of alums for much the same region. Upgrade the student body.

If anyone has the language governing the grant and the administrative policies and procedures that would be helpful.

It would be illustrative to see a comparison between say UNC with instate tuition and Hopkins at 70k giving a net.

If I'm not mistaken, and surely someone with greater knowledge will correct me if I am, Hopkins need-based aid is, like at Ivies, blind to any other factor after an admissions decision has been made.

Once "in", financial aid calculations happen. And it doesn't matter why you got in, what your SAT's were, you're eligible based on whatever your financial metrics determine.

Totally separate.

And it's very generous.

Yes, this allows any potential student, regardless of financial situation, to apply on the merits alone.

As to athletes, if you pass the admissions criteria, which don't look at your financial qualifications at all, you are eligible for aid.

At Ivies there are no additional athletic scholarships, eg the 12+ that Hopkins has. Someone else can explain the granular details of what any of that means to overlapping aid, but I think if someone gets athletic aid that reduces the amount they are eligible for on a need basis. How that comes into play for negotiating with families could be complex, but I suspect there's some ways that those who are eligible for lots of need based aid get that 100% of that form of aid while those who wouldn't get much might well get more of the athletic aid.

But I don't really know how those mechanics work...I know more about how the Ivies do it.

But in any case, Hopkins has an Ivy-level needs based aid program plus the athletic pool of $. I don't think any other program has as a better situation than that.

Indeed, anything better would very likely be way out of bounds per NCAA rules.

Of course, we now have this whole 'athletes can make money' thing, so that's a whole new factor. Where a kid can get the most public exposure to monetize could well be a factor going forward.

[HopFan16]

Hopfan 16. Why would it not be illustrative to look at a comparison ?

Because if the implication of this discussion is that the cost of Hopkins is prohibitive to recruits' families then comparing it to UNC's in-state tuition isn't a particularly helpful comparison. First of all, how many kids from North Carolina even are there? UNC only has four kids on its entire roster who are even from the state so it's not exactly a hotbed. We are competing more with the Ivies, Duke, Georgetown, Notre Dame for recruits than we are trying to get kids from the state of North Carolina who might otherwise stay home and play for the Heels. We lose more recruits to Penn and Yale than we do to UNC regardless of where they're from. If you're looking at the cost to attend Hopkins you need to take into account the fact that it costs just as much if not more to attend these other schools.

[MDlaxfan76]

Hopfan 16. Why would it not be illustrative to look at a comparison ?

Presumably because the pool of recruits includes very few kids eligible for in-state tuition at UNC. Not the battleground of recruiting.

Had you said a comparison with out-of-state, then we're at least in the neighborhood. But then you need to look at different tiers of recruits based on their financial metrics. The reality is that half of recruits or maybe even more will be receiving some or a lot of need-based financial aid at Hopkins (like at Ivies), significantly more such than UNC can offer.

UNC has the advantage, relative to Ivies, of also being able to do athletic $ but no such advantage relative to Hopkins.

Translation, more of the lax athletes at Hopkins can be receiving substantial aid than at UNC and more total $ of such support overall.

But UNC would indeed have a natural advantage with an in-state kid who doesn't qualify for need-based at Hopkins. On the other hand, for the super star such recruit, Hopkins could focus athletic aid to be highly competitive with that in-state tuition.

[OCanada]

Let me use a real life example in today’s dollars:

State U OOS all in cost 52,000

Hopkins all in 70,000

Father is a Hop grad former AA with two highly recruited sons

The family’s income takes them out of consideration for fin aid.

8 years of college w a diff of 18,000 per year. Total cost differential 144,000.

They went to the good state school bcs the father could not justify the extra cost when the 4 year degree has lost so much of its luster. If they do well they will have no problem getting into a good grad school.

One other that comes to mind. Dad is in the Hall of Fame. Son was looking at Hopkins and another high quality non Ivy private university. Son went to the other school for the same reason. Cost differential. Again family income out of range for fin aid.

Daughter went to Yale so i am familiar

When i played sports Cornell would recruit through the State school for sone athletes they wanted. I don’t know if they still do or not.

Some states schools have had a recruit relocate to instate. I don’t know if they still do it or not.

[51percentcorn]

This is actually an interesting discussion. Some examples woud help me. If you thought about it in terms of three 5* recruits - recruits that most programs would want and they fall into the following 3 categories what could happen?
1. Recruit's parents have done very well for themselves - would not qualify for need under virtually any scenario - but they want the schollie
2. Recruit and parents would qualify for a large/significant amount of need
3. Recruit might qualify for a piece of need but to have any chance at snagging him you are going to have to dive into the 12.6

This obviously ignores all the other factors that go into recruiting so suspend belief for a minute and pretend those are judged even and this is about money

So #1 - that's simply a capology calculation of how bad you want him and how much of the 12.6 you can part with???
#2 - the need based calculation might get you where you need to go but it could drip into scenario #3?
#3 - this is the "stacking" issue (???) and maybe the other place where the Hopkins administration is a perceived obstacle - by not allowing the combo of need and financial aid through scholarship you have probably thrown this recruit into category #1???

So if these three recruits were acceptable from an admissions/grade standpoint and PM went to Jen & Ronnie - what would they say?
"#1 is your problem - figure out the allocation
#2 - let's hope the need works
#3 - NO can't combine"

Am I anywhere near the ballpark?

[HopFan16]

Let me use a real life example in today’s dollars:

State U OOS all in cost 52,000

Hopkins all in 70,000

Father is a Hop grad former AA with two highly recruited sons

The family’s income takes them out of consideration for fin aid.

8 years of college w a diff of 18,000 per year. Total cost differential 144,000.

They went to the good state school bcs the father could not justify the extra cost when the 4 year degree has lost so much of its luster. If they do well they will have no problem getting into a good grad school.

One other that comes to mind. Dad is in the Hall of Fame. Son was looking at Hopkins and another high quality non Ivy private university. Son went to the other school for the same reason. Cost differential. Again family income out of range for fin aid.

Daughter went to Yale so i am familiar

When i played sports Cornell would recruit through the State school for sone athletes they wanted. I don’t know if they still do or not.

Some states schools have had a recruit relocate to instate. I don’t know if they still fo it or not.

If you're talking about the twins I'm pretty sure they didn't go to Hopkins because the school fired their dad.

In the second example I would love to know what the "high quality non Ivy private university is" that is so much cheaper than Hopkins. Because it ain't ND, Duke, or Georgetown.

State schools do generally have a cost advantage, even for out-of-state kids. No argument there. But they have that advantage over many schools, including the Ivies, ND, GTown, Duke, etc. And the state school experience is not for everyone.

You can't compare in-state tuition, though. That's a whole different animal. Especially in a state like North Carolina where there aren't many recruits to begin with. Maryland's in-state advantage is much bigger.

I pay pretty close attention to the recruiting scene and which recruits are considering which schools. There are always exceptions but in general we are more often in direct competition with the Ivies/Duke/GTown/etc. for kids than we are with the state schools. E.g. Chauvette's brother going to Yale, Ty Banks picking GTown or the Provost kid who is a family friend of Junior going to Penn. (We've won some of those battles too, e.g. flipping English from Brown and several '23s who were considering Ivies.) I'm sure part of the reason they hired Milliman is because he knows how to recruit these kinds of kids. You can't win em all, but you've gotta win some. So far he has but we've got to wait for these kids to get on campus.

[Big Dog]

Your point seems to be that the Bloomberg gift can be used as a supplement for athletes.

Bloomberg has never funded athletic related activities.

After the 2008 financial debacle hit the country Hopkins found itself accepting less qualified students who could afford the tuition as opposed to more qualified students who could not. Hopkins wanted to reverse that situation.

The purpose of the Bloomberg gift was to enable that to happen. That is, to allow highly qualified students to attend regardless of financial standing.

Bloomberg gave a restricted gift eg it defines eligibility. Once defined it has to have a process. Given the Bloomberg history and the purpose of the gift i believe it is a stretch to think there are not guidelines attached but maybe there are none. In order to know the language of the gift needs go be public. Personally i would like to read it tho i co know someone who might have it.

About the same time Hopkins did away with preferences for kids of alums for much the same region. Upgrade the student body.

If anyone has the language governing the grant and the administrative policies and procedures that would be helpful.

It would be illustrative to see a comparison between say UNC with instate tuition and Hopkins at 70k giving a net.

If I'm not mistaken, and surely someone with greater knowledge will correct me if I am, Hopkins need-based aid is, like at Ivies, blind to any other factor after an admissions decision has been made.

Once "in", financial aid calculations happen. And it doesn't matter why you got in, what your SAT's were, you're eligible based on whatever your financial metrics determine.

Totally separate.

And it's very generous.

Yes, this allows any potential student, regardless of financial situation, to apply on the merits alone.

As to athletes, if you pass the admissions criteria, which don't look at your financial qualifications at all, you are eligible for aid.

At Ivies there are no additional athletic scholarships, eg the 12+ that Hopkins has. Someone else can explain the granular details of what any of that means to overlapping aid, but I think if someone gets athletic aid that reduces the amount they are eligible for on a need basis. How that comes into play for negotiating with families could be complex, but I suspect there's some ways that those who are eligible for lots of need based aid get that 100% of that form of aid while those who wouldn't get much might well get more of the athletic aid.

But I don't really know how those mechanics work...I know more about how the Ivies do it.

But in any case, Hopkins has an Ivy-level needs based aid program plus the athletic pool of $. I don't think any other program has as a better situation than that.

Indeed, anything better would very likely be way out of bounds per NCAA rules.

Of course, we now have this whole 'athletes can make money' thing, so that's a whole new factor. Where a kid can get the most public exposure to monetize could well be a factor going forward.

Almost spot on. There is Ivy need-based aid and then their is HYP need-based aid, which is the most generous. Stanford and Hopkins are at that extremely generous level of need-based aid, where sone families making $200k or have a million dollar house can qualify for some of that tax-free money. Of the Ivies, Cornell used to be the least generous, but its been a few years since I ran actual numbers. (But Cornell does have its contract 'state' colleges in which to matriculate a recruit to obtain a discount.) Historically, ND has been pretty cheap.