All Things Russia & Ukraine

[MDlaxfan76]

But why would you ask such a ridiculous hypothetical?

...testing your commitment to non-partisanship on this subject.

well, I guess ridiculous hypotheticals do at least stretch the imagination, and heck some imagination may be required.

But give me some drones first. And other covert, as needed.

You can have the hardware, no US operators. No troops on the ground.

That works; sit our folks next to a Ukrainian, show them how to move the drones, and when to push the Botton...take out tanks and supply trucks. Strategic targets.

No US involvement means no drone pilots sitting next to Ukrainian pilots. Don’t want it originating in the US and no drone pilots consulting in Ukraine.

I understand your position, mine is different.

I think we're already giving Ukrainians training and weapons that they're using to fight Russia...I say give'em drones and training.

As it is, Putin is saying the sanctions are an 'act of war' as he's declaring his own 'no fly zone' over Ukraine. I think we need to stop them here and now. It's going to take quite a few months, but it's better to get this done.

[MDlaxfan76]

It’s up to Zelensky to deescalate, and get the whole world out of this mess. He’s got to stay safe, and get Putin his face saving deal.

This! We escalate, this realistic best case option goes away. Leave US out of it neocons, chicken hawks, and flat-out crazies.

The neocon and DC establishment is itching to send your children to war.

You can run down a long list of insane tweets and press releases, but Adam Kinzinger is right up there with his overly emotional, teen girl-like repetitive demand to declare war on Russia today. There are more examples of course, but he’s the most uninformed, yet often interviewed congressman doing this. It’s really defaulting of his voice for anything else, sadly for the TDS crowd who otherwise adore this guy.

Please provide us with a tweet from Kinzinger demanding that we declare war on Russia.

Else stop with with the disinformation campaign.

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Do you need more? Just ask.

None of that is demanding a declaration of war.

But hey, why not just exaggerate? It's called lying.

[lagerhead]

But why would you ask such a ridiculous hypothetical?

...testing your commitment to non-partisanship on this subject.

well, I guess ridiculous hypotheticals do at least stretch the imagination, and heck some imagination may be required.

But give me some drones first. And other covert, as needed.

You can have the hardware, no US operators. No troops on the ground.

That works; sit our folks next to a Ukrainian, show them how to move the drones, and when to push the Botton...take out tanks and supply trucks. Strategic targets.

No US involvement means no drone pilots sitting next to Ukrainian pilots. Don’t want it originating in the US and no drone pilots consulting in Ukraine.

I understand your position, mine is different.

I think we're already giving Ukrainians training and weapons that they're using to fight Russia...I say give'em drones and training.

As it is, Putin is saying the sanctions are an 'act of war' as he's declaring his own 'no fly zone' over Ukraine. I think we need to stop them here and now. It's going to take quite a few months, but it's better to get this done.
[

We had a chit strategy exiting Afghanistan, but it was the “right thing to do”. So now we enter into another conflict just brilliant. What’s your end game? Ukrainian Russian diplomacy is done for the foreseeable future.

[Essexfenwick]

We have declared economic war on Russia. Wars are no longer just kinetic. There is kinetic war, cyber war, economic war and war in space.

I would expect retaliation from Russia regarding the economic A-bomb we dropped on them. Russia and China are probably the best at cyber warfare and also our communications satellites are very vulnerable. Shutting down power grids / hacking the financial system / destroying comm satellites or an anonymous EMP attack could send us back to the Stone Age. The entire economy dependency on digital tech has horrible weaknesses and mass vulnerability. Very scary.

[old salt]

I say give'em drones and training.

As it is, Putin is saying the sanctions are an 'act of war' as he's declaring his own 'no fly zone' over Ukraine. I think we need to stop them here and now. It's going to take quite a few months, but it's better to get this done.

I'm not sure there's time to get that done. It would be tricky to fly them in without putting a NATO country at risk.
You'd need an airfield inside Ukraine to base them. It would be an ez target -- the base & the drones, on the ground & in the air.
...not sure it's a workable option.

[MDlaxfan76]

But why would you ask such a ridiculous hypothetical?

...testing your commitment to non-partisanship on this subject.

well, I guess ridiculous hypotheticals do at least stretch the imagination, and heck some imagination may be required.

But give me some drones first. And other covert, as needed.

You can have the hardware, no US operators. No troops on the ground.

That works; sit our folks next to a Ukrainian, show them how to move the drones, and when to push the Botton...take out tanks and supply trucks. Strategic targets.

No US involvement means no drone pilots sitting next to Ukrainian pilots. Don’t want it originating in the US and no drone pilots consulting in Ukraine.

I understand your position, mine is different.

I think we're already giving Ukrainians training and weapons that they're using to fight Russia...I say give'em drones and training.

As it is, Putin is saying the sanctions are an 'act of war' as he's declaring his own 'no fly zone' over Ukraine. I think we need to stop them here and now. It's going to take quite a few months, but it's better to get this done.
[

We had a chit strategy exiting Afghanistan, but it was the “right thing to do”. So now we enter into another conflict just brilliant. What’s your end game? Ukrainian Russian diplomacy is done for the foreseeable future.

Obviously we'd prefer that Putin hadn't done what he did. Yup.

But are you seriously just fine with a world in which 'great powers' annex neighbors simply because they wish to do so?

You'd prefer to appease dictators? Autocracy is your preferred system across the world, perhaps?

Clearly this is extremely complicated stuff, fraught with peril, but unless democracies, including the most powerful nation in the world, stand up to autocrats, the world devolves. Bold is MLaxfan76

[MDlaxfan76]

I say give'em drones and training.

As it is, Putin is saying the sanctions are an 'act of war' as he's declaring his own 'no fly zone' over Ukraine. I think we need to stop them here and now. It's going to take quite a few months, but it's better to get this done.

I'm not sure there's time to get that done. It would be tricky to fly them in without putting a NATO country at risk.
You'd need an airfield inside Ukraine to base them. It would be an ez target -- the base & the drones, on the ground & in the air.
...not sure it's a workable option.

I dunno how long it would take for the CIA to get the drones into position, but out of Turkey works fine, out of Poland works fine...the operators can be anywhere in the world.

Putin is going to open this up further. It's coming, move into position as fast as we can, if they're not already there...and we've been seeing this coming for months, so I'd be surprised if I was the first cat thinking this might be needed. I'd be surprised if those capabilities aren't within reach now.

[MDlaxfan76]

We have declared economic war on Russia. Wars are no longer just kinetic. There is kinetic war, cyber war, economic war and war in space.

I would expect retaliation from Russia regarding the economic A-bomb we dropped on them. Russia and China are probably the best at cyber warfare and also our communications satellites are very vulnerable. Shutting down power grids / hacking the financial system / destroying comm satellites or an anonymous EMP attack could send us back to the Stone Age. The entire economy dependency on digital tech has horrible weaknesses and mass vulnerability. Very scary.

Yes it is. Buckle up, Putin is calling the shots as to how bad this gets.

That said, don't think Russia actually has superior cyber capabilities. We can turn their lights off very quickly. In all respects. The difference has been that they've been willing to wage asymmetric cyber warfare far more than we have, not that we don't have the capabilities. We don't like the idea of using those capabilities.

China is tougher, but there too, don't assume we don't extensive capabilities.

But China really doesn't want any parts of this one.

[lagerhead]

But why would you ask such a ridiculous hypothetical?

...testing your commitment to non-partisanship on this subject.

well, I guess ridiculous hypotheticals do at least stretch the imagination, and heck some imagination may be required.

But give me some drones first. And other covert, as needed.

You can have the hardware, no US operators. No troops on the ground.

That works; sit our folks next to a Ukrainian, show them how to move the drones, and when to push the Botton...take out tanks and supply trucks. Strategic targets.

No US involvement means no drone pilots sitting next to Ukrainian pilots. Don’t want it originating in the US and no drone pilots consulting in Ukraine.

I understand your position, mine is different.

I think we're already giving Ukrainians training and weapons that they're using to fight Russia...I say give'em drones and training.

As it is, Putin is saying the sanctions are an 'act of war' as he's declaring his own 'no fly zone' over Ukraine. I think we need to stop them here and now. It's going to take quite a few months, but it's better to get this done.
[

We had a chit strategy exiting Afghanistan, but it was the “right thing to do”. So now we enter into another conflict just brilliant. What’s your end game? Ukrainian Russian diplomacy is done for the foreseeable future.

Obviously we'd prefer that Putin hadn't done what he did. Yup.

But are you seriously just fine with a world in which 'great powers' annex neighbors simply because they wish to do so?

You'd prefer to appease dictators? Autocracy is your preferred system across the world, perhaps?

Clearly this is extremely complicated stuff, fraught with peril, but unless democracies, including the most powerful nation in the world, stand up to autocrats, the world devolves. Bold is MLaxfan76

Are you fine being the worlds police force sending US personnel into conflicts that don’t impact our borders?

Isn’t there a UN (Blue Helmets), Hague?

NATOS not involved. Those members that wish do do so can act independently of NATO. Putin will declare those acts of war.

What is your endgame?

[old salt]

Obviously we'd prefer that Putin hadn't done what he did. Yup.

But are you seriously just fine with a world in which 'great powers' annex neighbors simply because they wish to do so?

You'd prefer to appease dictators? Autocracy is your preferred system across the world, perhaps?

Clearly this is extremely complicated stuff, fraught with peril, but unless democracies, including the most powerful nation in the world, stand up to autocrats, the world devolves. Bold is MLaxfan76

We're seeing the limits of sanctions & diplomacy in deterrence & containment.
They are ineffective without a credible military deterrence (which can be used) behind them.

It may be too late to save Ukraine.
We may have to accept that reality & use it as motivation to prevent Putin (& Xi) from grabbing more.

Our challenge is to protect our NATO allies, particularly the Baltics, & deter the taking of Taiwan, Georgia, & Moldova
& propping up any part of Ukraine which survives.

[MDlaxfan76]

What is Putin's end game, lagerhead?

You tell me exactly when we should step up as the strongest super power in the world?

Believe me, I'm 100% in favor of the step by step process we've been going through, exposing Putin as the brutal aggressor that he is. Ukraine and NATO and the US are very much winning the war of world awareness.

That said, I simply don't think Putin will ultimately be willing to take an L, absent it be a crushing L that leads to his ouster and/or death. And if he gets the W, he'll just keep coming.

He wants the fight. We don't.
But he's not going away without getting knocked back hard.

[old salt]

out of Turkey works fine, out of Poland works fine...the operators can be anywhere in the world.

That's launching attacks out of NATO countries Turkey & Poland.
Might as well use manned stealthy strike aircraft.

[MDlaxfan76]

Obviously we'd prefer that Putin hadn't done what he did. Yup.

But are you seriously just fine with a world in which 'great powers' annex neighbors simply because they wish to do so?

You'd prefer to appease dictators? Autocracy is your preferred system across the world, perhaps?

Clearly this is extremely complicated stuff, fraught with peril, but unless democracies, including the most powerful nation in the world, stand up to autocrats, the world devolves. Bold is MLaxfan76

We're seeing the limits of sanctions & diplomacy in deterrence & containment.
They are ineffective without a credible military deterrence (which can be used) behind them.

It may be too late to save Ukraine.
We may have to accept that reality & use it as motivation to prevent Putin (& Xi) from grabbing more.

Our challenge is to protect our NATO allies, particularly the Baltics, & deter the taking of Taiwan, Georgia, & Moldova
& propping up any part of Ukraine which survives.

I think we may be saying much the same thing.

On the other hand, it might actually not be "tool late"...

yes, Ukraine may well get crushed, but all indications are that the Ukrainians won't stop fighting an insurgency. And if armed sufficiently, it's very likely that the Russian forces will not be able to effectively hold the country for very long, though they would try brutally to do so.

And yes, the sanctions won't "deter" a dictator determined to be the aggressor, no matter what. At least not until the world sees that dictator's life ended at the hands of his own people. The next dictator may see his situation differently after that...but right now Putin seems to think he can come out of this alive and in power.

But he's made massive miscalculations.

[MDlaxfan76]

out of Turkey works fine, out of Poland works fine...the operators can be anywhere in the world.

That's launching attacks out of NATO countries Turkey & Poland.
Might as well use manned stealthy strike aircraft.

If Ukrainian pilots, ok.

But I think drones could do a heck of a lot without putting American lives directly at risk.

[lagerhead]

What is Putin's end game, lagerhead?

You tell me exactly when we should step up as the strongest super power in the world?

Believe me, I'm 100% in favor of the step by step process we've been going through, exposing Putin as the brutal aggressor that he is. Ukraine and NATO and the US are very much winning the war of world awareness.

That said, I simply don't think Putin will ultimately be willing to take an L, absent it be a crushing L that leads to his ouster and/or death. And if he gets the W, he'll just keep coming.

He wants the fight. We don't.
But he's not going away without getting knocked back hard.

No, I’m asking what your risk tolerance is until the crushing L? Even if it happens.

[MDlaxfan76]

What is Putin's end game, lagerhead?

You tell me exactly when we should step up as the strongest super power in the world?

Believe me, I'm 100% in favor of the step by step process we've been going through, exposing Putin as the brutal aggressor that he is. Ukraine and NATO and the US are very much winning the war of world awareness.

That said, I simply don't think Putin will ultimately be willing to take an L, absent it be a crushing L that leads to his ouster and/or death. And if he gets the W, he'll just keep coming.

He wants the fight. We don't.
But he's not going away without getting knocked back hard.

No, I’m asking what your risk tolerance is until the crushing L? Even if it happens.

Risk tolerance?

I don't think this is in our hands, really.

Putin is declaring the sanctions an act of war and I fully expect him to strike at the US and NATO in due course with that as the pretext. But he was coming, regardless.

We need to persuade the Russians that Putin's decisions are crushingly against their interest. Ideally we do this without our directly striking militarily, but we're already fully "in" with weaponry and intelligence.

I expect that we'll go to full energy sanctions pretty soon. We didn't want to do that, but I suspect that's coming.

After that, I see cyber clandestinely at first being the next step. That'll likely be in response to Russia going first.

[Brooklyn]

We're seeing the limits of sanctions & diplomacy in deterrence & containment.
They are ineffective without a credible military deterrence (which can be used) behind them.

It may be too late to save Ukraine.
We may have to accept that reality & use it as motivation to prevent Putin (& Xi) from grabbing more.

Our challenge is to protect our NATO allies, particularly the Baltics, & deter the taking of Taiwan, Georgia, & Moldova
& propping up any part of Ukraine which survives.

Why sanctions?

Nobody imposed any on the USA when imperialist Bush began his campaigns of colonialist terrorism on Afghanistan & Iraq while threatening Iran. Nobody even tried to use diplomacy to stop his terrorism but, on the contrary, supported him either thru finances, tactical help, or thru silence and acquiescence.


Too late to save Ukraine?

What do you mean by "save"? That's their problem, not ours. If Ukrainians want to rid their land of Russians let them fight for themselves. Nobody helped Afghanistan or Iraq from Bush imperialism. Those heroic people fought on their own and forced out the imperialists. Ukrainians need to follow their example. Bear in mind that Washington DC did not recognize the Confederacy and Moscow chooses not to recognize Kyiv. Same difference, right?


NATO?

Why not ally with Russia instead? That's thwart anyone else's imperial plans better than anything else.

Taiwan?

Taiwan belongs to China. We've gone over that before.

Georgia?

That's the land of Stalin. Abkhazia and South Ossetia are recognized as independent states. All Georgia need do is to enter into negotiations for similar recognition by Moscow, just like Donetsk & Luhansk.

Moldova?

Putin may well be interested in Transnistrian if its independence minded populace aligns itself with him. Doubtful that he wants the rest of that land knowing how its population is ethnically Romanian and has no interest in Russia whatsoever.




Whatever the case, the USA has no business getting involved in any of these conflicts. Their troubles have been going on for centuries and we know nothing about them. No sense in getting involved in something we know nothing about and which fails to benefit us in any way. Let those people sort out their own problems. The world looked the other way as the US took to playing Hitler with the Middle East. Eventually it was defeated by the heroic and patriotic efforts of nationals in their land. If Russia invades let's look the other way just exactly as they did with us. Eventually they will be defeated. Napoleon, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, and Bush invaded and were all defeated. If Putin's actions are imperialist invasions he will learn this lesson as well.

[old salt]

out of Turkey works fine, out of Poland works fine...the operators can be anywhere in the world.

That's launching attacks out of NATO countries Turkey & Poland.
Might as well use manned stealthy strike aircraft.

If Ukrainian pilots, ok.
No it's not. It's still launching air strikes from NATO territory.
No different than evacuating Ukrainian jets or loaners from EU countries to Poland or Romania & launching attacks from there.
Any country from which airstrikes are launched (manned or unmanned) against Russian forces makes them combatants & targets for Russian counter-strikes.
But I think drones could do a heck of a lot without putting American lives directly at risk.
That's not the critical consideration. Drawing in the host country &/or NATO into combat is the restraining factor.

NATO is not ready for war on the E flank. In the air or on the ground.
The longer Russia is tied down in Ukraine, the more time we have to bolster our defensive E front.

[jhu72]

[Kismet]

The latest from Orange Cheeto in Florida at a fundraiser -

Trump mused to donors that we should take our F-22 planes, "put the Chinese flag on them and bomb the sh*t out" out of Russia. "And then we say, China did it, we didn't do, China did it, and then they start fighting with each other and we sit back and watch."

Such a stable genius.