All Things Russia & Ukraine

[dislaxxic]

Aren't we, at some point, trying to find a way to be OK with Vlad telling us that democracy - the will of the people in a sovereign place - are AOK as long as the application of said democracy produces a result that is "compliant" with Mr. Putin?

We're OK with that...?

What else do you propose we do ? It's not a perfect world.

I think i'd want to talk it over in a reasonable way. Somehow it seems that needs to start with Mr. Putin telling us what it is that Ukraine is doing to put fear in ol' Vlad's heart. It that fear something to do with his country and it's people? Is it something to do with VP's authority, his legacy, his posse, his personal power?

If he wants to be insistent, at the barrel of a gun, what does the West insist on?

..

[old salt]

Agree that the Baltics have been independent too long to go back.
They have done more than most other NATO members to defend themselves.
...but tell that to Putin. They still cut off Kaliningrad.
Putin still sees them as part of Mother Russia & the USSR.
He's from the Baltic coast, nearby, in an adjoining SR.

He can see them as part of the USSR all he wants. You're talking about a multi-front war invading three NATO countries, war vs NATO as a whole, war in Ukraine, occupation in Georgia, occupation in Moldova, and action in Syria at the same time? Not gonna happen.

They're having massive issues handling the logistics of invading a non-NATO member.

If the convoy's destroyed, then what ? What's your end game ? You're dealing with Hitler with nukes.

You give him an off-ramp where Putin can withdraw and then save face internally. We're giving him the stick, present him with a carrot. You're not suggesting we simply roll over and let him take over Ukraine because he has nukes are you?

No. I've been talking about a face saving way out for a long time. --
-- declaration of neutrality by Zelensky
-- moratorium by NATO on further eastward expansion
-- demilitarized buffer zone on both sides of NATO-Russia borders
-- bi-lateral military inspections & observers in exercises.
-- rules about encounters at sea & in the air & proximity of bomber flights.
-- resume START & other disarmament negotiations.
--resume Minsk process for Donbass
-- quietly accept that Crimea is paro of Russia
most have now been o.b.e.

[old salt]

Agree that the Baltics have been independent too long to go back.
They have done more than most other NATO members to defend themselves.
...but tell that to Putin. They still cut off Kaliningrad.
Putin still sees them as part of Mother Russia & the USSR.
He's from the Baltic coast, nearby, in an adjoining SR.

He can see them as part of the USSR all he wants. You're talking about a multi-front war invading three NATO countries, war vs NATO as a whole, war in Ukraine, occupation in Georgia, occupation in Moldova, and action in Syria at the same time? Not gonna happen.

They're having massive issues handling the logistics of invading a non-NATO member.

If the convoy's destroyed, then what ? What's your end game ? You're dealing with Hitler with nukes.

You give him an off-ramp where Putin can withdraw and then save face internally. We're giving him the stick, present him with a carrot. You're not suggesting we simply roll over and let him take over Ukraine because he has nukes are you?

Hitler with nukes?…..for 5 years we were told it’s USA and NATOs fault and the guy is rational…and standing up to him didn’t matter.

You were also told that Putin is the most dangerous human being since Hitler. Still think it's all a joke ?

[jhu72]

Bolton, if nothing else is entertaining. John Bolton criticized his former boss (Trump) on Newsmax Monday night. Bolton pushed back against the host's rosy portrayal of the Trump administration on Russia. "The fact is that he barely knew where Ukraine was," Bolton said.

[Essexfenwick]

Yep

Usurper Poopy Pants really dropped the ball and believed the idiots in the swamp.

There is no “defeating” or humiliating a country with the most nuclear weapons on earth. You’re just going to push them together with China after they either defeat or destroy Ukraine. It’s too late for JoeTard. He fell for the he nonsense every dumb US leader in the 21st century except Trump fell for.

Only people who have the intelligence to see Trumps genius were also able to see that the vegetable installed in the white house has dementia. Now those idiots have us with a hot war in Europe and unfathomable potential routes the least of which is the dropping of the dollar as reserve currency and corresponding default of the US government and the greatest of which is nuclear war.

It’s amazing that the stupid swamp could screw up literally every important issue in 13 months.

We have 3 more years with a drooling, slurring, falling down, booger eating testament to liberal failure.

[MDlaxfan76]

Agree that the Baltics have been independent too long to go back.
They have done more than most other NATO members to defend themselves.
...but tell that to Putin. They still cut off Kaliningrad.
Putin still sees them as part of Mother Russia & the USSR.
He's from the Baltic coast, nearby, in an adjoining SR.

He can see them as part of the USSR all he wants. You're talking about a multi-front war invading three NATO countries, war vs NATO as a whole, war in Ukraine, occupation in Georgia, occupation in Moldova, and action in Syria at the same time? Not gonna happen.

They're having massive issues handling the logistics of invading a non-NATO member.

If the convoy's destroyed, then what ? What's your end game ? You're dealing with Hitler with nukes.

You give him an off-ramp where Putin can withdraw and then save face internally. We're giving him the stick, present him with a carrot. You're not suggesting we simply roll over and let him take over Ukraine because he has nukes are you?

No. I've been talking about a face saving way out for a long time. --
-- declaration of neutrality by Zelensky
-- moratorium by NATO on further eastward expansion
-- demilitarized buffer zone on both sides of NATO-Russia borders
-- bi-lateral military inspections & observers in exercises.
-- rules about encounters at sea & in the air & proximity of bomber flights.
-- resume START & other disarmament negotiations.
--resume Minsk process for Donbass
-- quietly accept that Crimea is paro of Russia
most have now been o.b.e.

Ok, naked aggression works.
That's the lesson, not just to Russia but to anyone...especially if they have nukes.

Why would we expect Putin to stop?
What you describe is not remotely his ambition.

You keep making a case that he's rational enough to accept face saving over his ambition, but why would he do so unless he thinks he can't win?...which by all accounts looks probable if NATO doesn't do more.

Obviously promises mean zero.

[old salt]

Re taking out the convoy -- we're not in a position to escalate yet. We'd need to bring NATO along & prepare for full scale war all along their border & in WPac too. If we act unilaterally, we're exposing the rest of NATO. They are not (yet) adequately defended.

[MDlaxfan76]

Agree that the Baltics have been independent too long to go back.
They have done more than most other NATO members to defend themselves.
...but tell that to Putin. They still cut off Kaliningrad.
Putin still sees them as part of Mother Russia & the USSR.
He's from the Baltic coast, nearby, in an adjoining SR.

He can see them as part of the USSR all he wants. You're talking about a multi-front war invading three NATO countries, war vs NATO as a whole, war in Ukraine, occupation in Georgia, occupation in Moldova, and action in Syria at the same time? Not gonna happen.

They're having massive issues handling the logistics of invading a non-NATO member.

If the convoy's destroyed, then what ? What's your end game ? You're dealing with Hitler with nukes.

You give him an off-ramp where Putin can withdraw and then save face internally. We're giving him the stick, present him with a carrot. You're not suggesting we simply roll over and let him take over Ukraine because he has nukes are you?

Hitler with nukes?…..for 5 years we were told it’s USA and NATOs fault and the guy is rational…and standing up to him didn’t matter.

You were also told that Putin is the most dangerous human being since Hitler. Still think it's all a joke ?

I think the argument was whether appeasement works if that's true. At least with those of us who indeed saw Putin and his efforts to undermine democracy, tear down NATO, etc as incredibly dangerous if successful.

But I don't think rehashing past discussions and views is fruitful...the issue is how to handle the present and future, with all the insights gleaned from his actual choices now.

[Essexfenwick]

Agree that the Baltics have been independent too long to go back.
They have done more than most other NATO members to defend themselves.
...but tell that to Putin. They still cut off Kaliningrad.
Putin still sees them as part of Mother Russia & the USSR.
He's from the Baltic coast, nearby, in an adjoining SR.

He can see them as part of the USSR all he wants. You're talking about a multi-front war invading three NATO countries, war vs NATO as a whole, war in Ukraine, occupation in Georgia, occupation in Moldova, and action in Syria at the same time? Not gonna happen.

They're having massive issues handling the logistics of invading a non-NATO member.

If the convoy's destroyed, then what ? What's your end game ? You're dealing with Hitler with nukes.

You give him an off-ramp where Putin can withdraw and then save face internally. We're giving him the stick, present him with a carrot. You're not suggesting we simply roll over and let him take over Ukraine because he has nukes are you?

No. I've been talking about a face saving way out for a long time. --
-- declaration of neutrality by Zelensky
-- moratorium by NATO on further eastward expansion
-- demilitarized buffer zone on both sides of NATO-Russia borders
-- bi-lateral military inspections & observers in exercises.
-- rules about encounters at sea & in the air & proximity of bomber flights.
-- resume START & other disarmament negotiations.
--resume Minsk process for Donbass
-- quietly accept that Crimea is paro of Russia
most have now been o.b.e.

Ok, naked aggression works.
That's the lesson, not just to Russia but to anyone...especially if they have nukes.

Why would we expect Putin to stop?
What you describe is not remotely his ambition.

You keep making a case that he's rational enough to accept face saving over his ambition, but why would he do so unless he thinks he can't win?...which by all accounts looks probable if NATO doesn't do more.

Obviously promises mean zero.

Russia has the upper hand.

They are less afraid of dying than the west.

[MDlaxfan76]

Re taking out the convoy -- we're not in a position to escalate yet. We need to bring NATO along & prepare for full scale war all along their border & in WPac too. If we act unilaterally, we're exposing the rest of NATO. They are not (yet) adequately defended.

I liked the visuals of the drones out of Turkey...if those were real, and the destruction of various tanks and trucks etc were caused by such, then a whole lot more of that would cause havoc for the Russians. Potentially panic among their conscripts. Plausibly directed by Ukrainian operators.

I don't buy that Putin turns and attacks NATO along the border. He has more than his hands full with the bogging down in Ukraine and a domestic public that doesn't want this war.

I do think he sent lots of cruise missiles at Ukraine.

[jhu72]

Interesting observations on the Russian air force.

[old salt]

Agree that the Baltics have been independent too long to go back.
They have done more than most other NATO members to defend themselves.
...but tell that to Putin. They still cut off Kaliningrad.
Putin still sees them as part of Mother Russia & the USSR.
He's from the Baltic coast, nearby, in an adjoining SR.

He can see them as part of the USSR all he wants. You're talking about a multi-front war invading three NATO countries, war vs NATO as a whole, war in Ukraine, occupation in Georgia, occupation in Moldova, and action in Syria at the same time? Not gonna happen.

They're having massive issues handling the logistics of invading a non-NATO member.

If the convoy's destroyed, then what ? What's your end game ? You're dealing with Hitler with nukes.

You give him an off-ramp where Putin can withdraw and then save face internally. We're giving him the stick, present him with a carrot. You're not suggesting we simply roll over and let him take over Ukraine because he has nukes are you?

Hitler with nukes?…..for 5 years we were told it’s USA and NATOs fault and the guy is rational…and standing up to him didn’t matter.

You were also told that Putin is the most dangerous human being since Hitler. Still think it's all a joke ?

I think the argument was whether appeasement works if that's true. At least with those of us who indeed saw Putin and his efforts to undermine democracy, tear down NATO, etc as incredibly dangerous if successful.

But I don't think rehashing past discussions and views is fruitful...the issue is how to handle the present and future, with all the insights gleaned from his actual choices now.

Putin was not taken seriously. He was the leader of a weak regional power. His resolve was obviously underestimated. Every time his perceived grievances were raised here, in the media, & in the political debate, it was mocked & whoever brought it up was ridiculed & or defamed as a Putin apologist &/or Russian agent. Reality can bring a bitter taste.

[Essexfenwick]

Re taking out the convoy -- we're not in a position to escalate yet. We need to bring NATO along & prepare for full scale war all along their border & in WPac too. If we act unilaterally, we're exposing the rest of NATO. They are not (yet) adequately defended.

I liked the visuals of the drones out of Turkey...if those were real, and the destruction of various tanks and trucks etc were caused by such, then a whole lot more of that would cause havoc for the Russians. Potentially panic among their conscripts. Plausibly directed by Ukrainian operators.

I don't buy that Putin turns and attacks NATO along the border. He has more than his hands full with the bogging down in Ukraine and a domestic public that doesn't want this war.

I do think he sent lots of cruise missiles at Ukraine.

I think Putin will give it a little more time.

Then he will give Ukraine time to surrender or get the MOAB bomb. Which he will compare to Harry Truman and the USA only more compassionate.

[MDlaxfan76]

Agree that the Baltics have been independent too long to go back.
They have done more than most other NATO members to defend themselves.
...but tell that to Putin. They still cut off Kaliningrad.
Putin still sees them as part of Mother Russia & the USSR.
He's from the Baltic coast, nearby, in an adjoining SR.

He can see them as part of the USSR all he wants. You're talking about a multi-front war invading three NATO countries, war vs NATO as a whole, war in Ukraine, occupation in Georgia, occupation in Moldova, and action in Syria at the same time? Not gonna happen.

They're having massive issues handling the logistics of invading a non-NATO member.

If the convoy's destroyed, then what ? What's your end game ? You're dealing with Hitler with nukes.

You give him an off-ramp where Putin can withdraw and then save face internally. We're giving him the stick, present him with a carrot. You're not suggesting we simply roll over and let him take over Ukraine because he has nukes are you?

Hitler with nukes?…..for 5 years we were told it’s USA and NATOs fault and the guy is rational…and standing up to him didn’t matter.

You were also told that Putin is the most dangerous human being since Hitler. Still think it's all a joke ?

I think the argument was whether appeasement works if that's true. At least with those of us who indeed saw Putin and his efforts to undermine democracy, tear down NATO, etc as incredibly dangerous if successful.

But I don't think rehashing past discussions and views is fruitful...the issue is how to handle the present and future, with all the insights gleaned from his actual choices now.

Putin was not taken seriously. He was the leader of a weak regional power. His resolve was obviously underestimated. Every time his perceived grievances were raised here, in the media, & in the political debate, it was mocked & whoever brought it up was ridiculed & or defamed as a Putin apologist &/or Russian agent. Reality can bring a bitter taste.

mmmm, I think his grievances were what was pushed back on, for the most part...the notion not that we shouldn't take him "seriously" but rather just the opposite that we shouldn't attempt to appease or "humor" him, much less kiss his butt.

These were phony grievances, intended to resonate for domestic consumption but not based in reality. I continue to think he knew they were phony. But he has an enormous ego and ambitions.

So, My argument was that he was a bully, quite serious in his ambitions and his efforts to use whatever tools he had at his disposal to fight asymmetrically, and would only recognize force as a deterrent. And if we didn't stand up, hard, he'd just continued to exploit whatever soft targets we allowed.

I'm sure you're correct that some others didn't have that argument.

[a fan]

seriously. He was the leader of a weak regional power. His resolve was obviously underestimated. Every time his perceived grievances were raised here, in the media, & in the political debate, it was mocked & whoever brought it up was ridiculed & or defamed as a Putin apologist &/or Russian agent. Reality can bring a bitter taste.

FoxNation straw man talking points?

You’re better than this. Everyone took him seriously. What we laughed at was that he was a strategic genius, and was playing chess for 20’years. He’s as clumsy as he is stupid.

What we also mocked was the FoxNation 360…where you guys think we should appease Putin, and simply give him what he wants .

I ask again, and someday you’ll answer: why doesn’t the US invade Mexico if this move of Putins is so brilliant?

[cradleandshoot]

No Russian invasions under Trump.

Libs exposed as “really stupid” like Trump told us. The level of mismanagement and divorce from reality under Biden is like retarded.

This must be doubling down, and I mean down.

Your Trump-Love is amusing. It is clear that Biden and his national security team has managed this intractable situation very well, very professionally, and with care and caution and multilateral skill. Only the most vacantly partisan people think otherwise. And the phrase "like retarded" is one I haven't heard since one of my kids got set straight on it in middle school.

You are so naive. The description of your party and it's ineptitude is clearly defined..

Oh great swami of the Couch, tell me why I am naive? Teach me Couch Master!!!

Trying to educate a lawyer, especially a FLP retired one is a lesson in futility. Why would I waste my valuable time arguing with an idiot? You can't teach the unteachable... Once you have hung up your bow tie and put your wingtips in the closet you have become a shadow of your former self. How come you never found yourself on the SCOTUS given your self proclaimed legal genius status?? I guess I am a better couch warrior than you were a fifth string useless member of the legal profession. How many ambulances did you chase in your career? Did you ever catch one??

Thanks for this sad, content- and response-free reply. I'm not retired. I've never worn a bow tie and don't have any wingtips. I never had a chance to be a federal judge, to say nothing of being a Supreme Court justice. I never "proclaimed legal genius status," whatever that means. I never chased an ambulance or practiced personal injury law. I'm just a business litigation attorney in the northeast. Your post reads as a sad, grievance-heavy bit of envy of the life others have and you don't.

The country you profess to love is the one you always disparage, hoping for the failure of a Democratic administration and President. You fit right in with the quislings of the Right.

Your brilliant legal mind could figure out I was expressing an opinion. I'm proud of of you, you win a cookie. The country I profess do love is the same country I served with honor and dignity. What were you doing in 1980 counselor? My fellow soldiers and I were humping our asses up and down the firebreaks of Ft Bragg being told to expect being deployed in a mission to Iran. What we could have accomplished ended with the disaster at Desert One. You can eff with me all you want and I'm cool with that. When you want to make an asinine statement about the country you think I love.. I was willing to die for this country.. what sacrifice were you willing to make? What more could I have been willing to do to assuage your liberal contempt? I live the most simple uncomplicated life any person could want. Roxy and I go for our walks every morning. I'm planning on my garden this spring. I'm waiting for the daffodils and tulips bulbs I planted last fall to start to poke their heads up. I work my part time job slinging deli meat at a famous local Italian Deli. The owner loves me because I bring no drama to the job. I have become an expert at trimming and slicing procuitto. Life is good counselor, I love my country and my job. The nauseating sight of a bunch of people claiming to be patriots waving the flag and storming our nations capital was one of the most repugnant things I have ever seen. America today is not the country I served with my fellow soldiers. Do not ever think for one minute that I don't love my country. I always have and I always will. Maybe it will take people way smarter than myself to reignite the passion I felt for so long that I no longer feel. I'm just an old broken down soldier who just doesn't give a damn anymore. I do know in 2 more months I'll be planting yellow beans. I'll be watching my flowers come up and my lilac bushes will start to bloom.
FTR I'm glad you never wore a bow tie. The only vision in my head is of Archibald Cox.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Agree that the Baltics have been independent too long to go back.
They have done more than most other NATO members to defend themselves.
...but tell that to Putin. They still cut off Kaliningrad.
Putin still sees them as part of Mother Russia & the USSR.
He's from the Baltic coast, nearby, in an adjoining SR.

He can see them as part of the USSR all he wants. You're talking about a multi-front war invading three NATO countries, war vs NATO as a whole, war in Ukraine, occupation in Georgia, occupation in Moldova, and action in Syria at the same time? Not gonna happen.

They're having massive issues handling the logistics of invading a non-NATO member.

If the convoy's destroyed, then what ? What's your end game ? You're dealing with Hitler with nukes.

You give him an off-ramp where Putin can withdraw and then save face internally. We're giving him the stick, present him with a carrot. You're not suggesting we simply roll over and let him take over Ukraine because he has nukes are you?

Hitler with nukes?…..for 5 years we were told it’s USA and NATOs fault and the guy is rational…and standing up to him didn’t matter.

You were also told that Putin is the most dangerous human being since Hitler. Still think it's all a joke ?

Let me search your posts….so you decide when it’s not a joke?

[jhu72]

... after what we have seen for the past week, anyone still thinking Putin is a strategic genius, is a moron. He has made miscalculation after miscalculation. Ukraine has made him look foolish to this point.

[Typical Lax Dad]

]I don't think we should go unless & until NATO (collectively) activates & deploys the standing NATO Response Force (NRF), which is currently commanded by the French, with the Franco-German Brigade as the vanguard of the Very High Readiness Joint Task Force (VJTF).

Agreed! This is the EU's problem. If they can't bother to show up via NATO? We have no business there.

Tucker, that you?

Tucker C? Well, that's a new one, I'll grant you that.

This was said pages ago be me and others. If we just dropped the possibility of Ukraine in NATO, everybody could go back to their normal lives. What is this administration's motivation for ramping up tensions? Is Ukraine the new Sudetenland? Is Putin the new Hitler? Hardly. We should be looking to the Pacific, not this shiny object.

Sen Josh Hawley asked the Biden admin the same thing & requested that Biden state his position on future NATO membership for Ukraine.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... wleyletter

Rather than provide an answer to that reasonable question, which the American people are entitled to know, Biden's flack accused him of parroting Russian talking points.
https://twitter.com/ABCPolitics/status/ ... 6159618056

Get used to it. Anyone who questions our full support for Ukraine will be accused of being a useful idiot or agent for Russia.
Same playbook as the 2016 election.

You're either with us or against us. Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

The Biden Admin does not want to inform the American people what NATO membership for Ukraine obligates the US to do.

Also -- these latest augmented deployments to Poland & Romania are apparently being made bi-laterally.
As far as I can tell, NATO did not order or call for this.
Our SecDef called his counterparts in Romania & Poland 8 days ago, made the offer, & they said -- ok.

NATO has yet to act collectively. The SecGen has said that the NATO Response Force will not deploy unless/until Russia invades.

The Biden Admin flacks are hyping this as a show of NATO solidarity. It's the opposite, it is (so far) a failure of NATO to act collectively.

These latest bi-lateral deployments of US forces may prove to be a positive factor in a peaceful resolution, but it is false advertising to deceive the US public into believing that they are being done to fulfill our obligation to NATO. The US may be leading, but NATO is not (yet) following.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/wh ... 022-01-27/

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/kr ... 022-02-02/

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us ... 022-02-03/

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2022 ... up/361487/

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2022 ... es/361530/

Not many Hitler/Putin comparisons prior to the last couple of days. I did see some Farkas jokes.

[Essexfenwick]

Bolton, if nothing else is entertaining. John Bolton criticized his former boss (Trump) on Newsmax Monday night. Bolton pushed back against the host's rosy portrayal of the Trump administration on Russia. "The fact is that he barely knew where Ukraine was," Bolton said.

You can’t expect the stupid swamp to admit Trump is smarter than them.

The swamp does nothing but screw up and get thousands killed. Then wax academic.