All Things Russia & Ukraine

[MDlaxfan76]

Yeah, that's the BS claim that Obama didn't send much...not true,

No. It is a fact. Aid sent by Obama was limited to non-lethal.
Recall the campaign of 2106 debate about whether or not the RNC & DNC platforms endorsed lethal aid.

yes, "non-lethal", but $200 million of aid including military.

That's a lot more than "not much".

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/26/politics ... index.html

Trump did later provide some lethal aid, as I said as the Ukrainians demonstrated they had their act together.

I think we should have provided even more, but I do think it needed to be 'earned' over time by the demonstration of commitments to democracy and anti-corruption.

[a fan]

After 3 days of video on social media & cable news, tugging at their heart strings, suddenly nobody fears the Russian military anymore.

I think it's far more that Americans know NOTHING about overseas events. Nothing. Which is why all the wars we've fought over nothing are such stupid decisions. We never do the homework.

It's up to our leaders to keep our noses....our troops..... out of where it doesn't belong.

[old salt]

After 3 days of video on social media & cable news, tugging at their heart strings, suddenly nobody fears the Russian military anymore.

I think it's far more that Americans know NOTHING about overseas events. Nothing. Which is why all the wars we've fought over nothing are such stupid decisions. We never do the homework.

It's up to our leaders to keep our noses....our troops..... out of where it doesn't belong.

I watched the Smerconish show on replay. The poll that has all the summer soldiers fired up came after a 15 min cheer leading session & an interview with Alex Vindman (who said the Turks have closed Black Sea access to Russian warships -- let's see how that ages).

The poll asked whether of not NATO should go to war for Ukraine ? ...not whether the US should go to war.
How much of that audience thinks NATO means somebody else ?

[old salt]

Yeah, that's the BS claim that Obama didn't send much...not true,

No. It is a fact. Aid sent by Obama was limited to non-lethal.
Recall the campaign of 2106 debate about whether or not the RNC & DNC platforms endorsed lethal aid.

yes, "non-lethal", but $200 million of aid including military.

That's a lot more than "not much".

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/26/politics ... index.html

Trump did later provide some lethal aid, as I said as the Ukrainians demonstrated they had their act together.

I think we should have provided even more, but I do think it needed to be 'earned' over time by the demonstration of commitments to democracy and anti-corruption.

You do understand it meant no weapons, ammo, weapons systems & no military trainers.

What military aid did Obama provide ? Specifics.

https://nypost.com/2019/10/09/sorry-joe ... ne-at-all/

[a fan]

After 3 days of video on social media & cable news, tugging at their heart strings, suddenly nobody fears the Russian military anymore.

I think it's far more that Americans know NOTHING about overseas events. Nothing. Which is why all the wars we've fought over nothing are such stupid decisions. We never do the homework.

It's up to our leaders to keep our noses....our troops..... out of where it doesn't belong.

I watched the Smerconish show on replay. The poll that has all the summer soldiers fired up came after a 15 min cheer leading session & an interview with Alex Vindman (who said the Turks have closed Black Sea access to Russian warships -- let's see how that ages).

The poll asked whether of not NATO should go to war for Ukraine ? ...not whether the US should go to war.
How much of that audience thinks NATO means somebody else ?

Exactly.

[old salt]

After 3 days of video on social media & cable news, tugging at their heart strings, suddenly nobody fears the Russian military anymore.

I think it's far more that Americans know NOTHING about overseas events. Nothing. Which is why all the wars we've fought over nothing are such stupid decisions. We never do the homework.

It's up to our leaders to keep our noses....our troops..... out of where it doesn't belong.

I watched the Smerconish show on replay. The poll that has all the summer soldiers fired up came after a 15 min cheer leading session & an interview with Alex Vindman (who said the Turks have closed Black Sea access to Russian warships -- let's see how that ages).

The poll asked whether of not NATO should go to war for Ukraine ? ...not whether the US should go to war.
How much of that audience thinks NATO means somebody else ?

Exactly.

Don't get me wrong. I'd vote "yes" for the US &/or NATO to answer the invitation to provide a no-fly zone over Ukraine, if it assured the Ukrainians survival ...IF Russia did not have limited dispersal tactical nucs, & the willingness to use them.

[MDlaxfan76]

Yeah, that's the BS claim that Obama didn't send much...not true,

No. It is a fact. Aid sent by Obama was limited to non-lethal.
Recall the campaign of 2106 debate about whether or not the RNC & DNC platforms endorsed lethal aid.

yes, "non-lethal", but $200 million of aid including military.

That's a lot more than "not much".

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/26/politics ... index.html

Trump did later provide some lethal aid, as I said as the Ukrainians demonstrated they had their act together.

I think we should have provided even more, but I do think it needed to be 'earned' over time by the demonstration of commitments to democracy and anti-corruption.

You do understand it meant no weapons, ammo, weapons systems & no military trainers.

What military aid did Obama provide ? Specifics.

https://nypost.com/2019/10/09/sorry-joe ... ne-at-all/

Humvees, medical supplies, patrol boats, body armor, night vision goggles.

Between 2014-2016 a total of $600 million in aid, including humanitarian.

No Javelins.

Then, as of November 2015 forward:

In the last year of the Obama administration, Congress authorized lethal aid, but it didn’t include the Javelins.

The 2016 National Defense Authorization Act, which became law in November 2015, called for "lethal assistance such as anti-armor weapon systems, mortars, crew-served weapons and ammunition, grenade launchers and ammunition, and small arms and ammunition."

Gotta get your head out of the Post.

But sure, the Javelins came later.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... -military/

[MDlaxfan76]

After 3 days of video on social media & cable news, tugging at their heart strings, suddenly nobody fears the Russian military anymore.

I think it's far more that Americans know NOTHING about overseas events. Nothing. Which is why all the wars we've fought over nothing are such stupid decisions. We never do the homework.

It's up to our leaders to keep our noses....our troops..... out of where it doesn't belong.

I watched the Smerconish show on replay. The poll that has all the summer soldiers fired up came after a 15 min cheer leading session & an interview with Alex Vindman (who said the Turks have closed Black Sea access to Russian warships -- let's see how that ages).

The poll asked whether of not NATO should go to war for Ukraine ? ...not whether the US should go to war.
How much of that audience thinks NATO means somebody else ?

Exactly.

Don't get me wrong. I'd vote "yes" for the US &/or NATO to answer the invitation to provide a no-fly zone over Ukraine, if it assured the Ukrainians survival ...IF Russia did not have limited dispersal tactical nucs, & the willingness to use them.

Two ifs, the first more of "likely" good answer, the second is the one that is the challenging issue.

But we're gonna face this showdown whether we like it or not.

Here's what I "know": I'd have a ton of trouble making this call if I had the responsibility to do so. Hard.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Yeah, that's the BS claim that Obama didn't send much...not true,

No. It is a fact. Aid sent by Obama was limited to non-lethal.
Recall the campaign of 2106 debate about whether or not the RNC & DNC platforms endorsed lethal aid.

yes, "non-lethal", but $200 million of aid including military.

That's a lot more than "not much".

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/26/politics ... index.html

Trump did later provide some lethal aid, as I said as the Ukrainians demonstrated they had their act together.

I think we should have provided even more, but I do think it needed to be 'earned' over time by the demonstration of commitments to democracy and anti-corruption.

You do understand it meant no weapons, ammo, weapons systems & no military trainers.

What military aid did Obama provide ? Specifics.

https://nypost.com/2019/10/09/sorry-joe ... ne-at-all/

"Since the 2014 Russian annexation of Crimea, the U.S. has provided $2.5 billion in military aid to Ukraine. Continued security assistance prolongs the conflict and heightens U.S.-Russia tensions."

I wonder what they could have spent the money on?

[old salt]

Gotta get your head out of the Post

Snob. The link I posted was a Wash Post opinion piece by one of their regular contributors that was syndicated around the country.
I posted the NY Post link because it was free.

Those were unarmed Humvees, btw.
They could buy the other "non-lethal" aid at a Bass Pro Shop.

[DocBarrister]

On the battlefield, Russia is suffering heavier losses in personnel and armor and aircraft than expected. This is due in part to the fact that Ukrainian air defenses have performed better than pre-invasion US intelligence assessments had anticipated. In addition, Russia has yet to establish air supremacy over Ukraine, a senior defense official said, as the Ukrainian Air Force and air defense systems fight for control of the airspace.

"Ukrainian air defenses, including aircraft, do continue to be operable and continue to engage and deny access to Russian aircraft in places over the country," the official said.
Without uncontested control of the skies, it becomes more difficult for an army on the move to see and strike targets from the air.

Together, these challenges have so far prevented the quick overthrow of major Ukrainian cities, including the capital, Kyiv, which US officials were concerned could play out in a matter of days. The city of Kharkiv near Ukraine's border with Russia also has not fallen to invading forces, which officials worried could happen on the first night of an invasion.

Officials caution that this picture of the battlefield is just a moment in time, and the situation on the ground could change very quickly as Russian forces keep up their assault.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/26/politics ... index.html

DocBarrister

[MDlaxfan76]

Gotta get your head out of the Post

Snob. The link I posted was a Wash Post opinion piece by one of their regular contributors that was syndicated around the country.
I posted the NY Post link because it was free.

Those were unarmed Humvees, btw.

yup, but it is a bogus opinion piece, not journalism.

And it is a factually wrong statement that Obama didn't authorize lethal aid after Congress eventually passed that in November 2015.

We can say he should have pushed for more...ok. Not gonna get an argument from me.

But the hyperbole and partisan crap is ridiculous. Unworthy of you.

I'm trying to have a respectful discussion, valuing your knowledge and interest. I know you pay attention way, way more than the average cat.

So, don't throw partisan BS, please.

[old salt]

Gotta get your head out of the Post

Snob. The link I posted was a Wash Post opinion piece by one of their regular contributors that was syndicated around the country.
I posted the NY Post link because it was free.

Those were unarmed Humvees, btw.

yup, but it is a bogus opinion piece, not journalism.

And it is a factually wrong statement that Obama didn't authorize lethal aid after Congress eventually passed that in November 2015.

We can say he should have pushed for more...ok. Not gonna get an argument from me.

But the hyperbole and partisan crap is ridiculous. Unworthy of you.

I'm trying to have a respectful discussion, valuing your knowledge and interest. I know you pay attention way, way more than the average cat.

So, don't throw partisan BS, please.

Fact -- the military aid that Obama approved was non-lethal aid, no matter how much you fluff it up, dissemble & try to discredit the source.

The author I linked is a member of the WP writers group.

[old salt]

But we're gonna face this showdown whether we like it or not.

IF we do, it will be from well defended NATO bases & ships in the region, with the full complement of our best weapons & best operators. It won't be thrown together in a couple days in response to emotional tv reports & polls.

[old salt]

Reality check.

https://twitter.com/mccaffreyr3/status/ ... gr%5Etweet

https://twitter.com/mccaffreyr3/status/ ... gr%5Etweet

[MDlaxfan76]

Gotta get your head out of the Post

Snob. The link I posted was a Wash Post opinion piece by one of their regular contributors that was syndicated around the country.
I posted the NY Post link because it was free.

Those were unarmed Humvees, btw.

yup, but it is a bogus opinion piece, not journalism.

And it is a factually wrong statement that Obama didn't authorize lethal aid after Congress eventually passed that in November 2015.

We can say he should have pushed for more...ok. Not gonna get an argument from me.

But the hyperbole and partisan crap is ridiculous. Unworthy of you.

I'm trying to have a respectful discussion, valuing your knowledge and interest. I know you pay attention way, way more than the average cat.

So, don't throw partisan BS, please.

Fact -- the military aid that Obama approved was non-lethal aid, no matter how much you fluff it up, dissemble & try to discredit the source.

The author I linked is a member of the WP writers group.

Obama approved the legislation, signed it, that enabled lethal aid to be delivered. That's the authorization that Trump used in those first years. Javelins added thereafter.

Again, the boo Obama stuff is simply unworthy. Ukraine has evolved a ton in their democracy and work against corruption. They're not done, but they've come a very long way.

[MDlaxfan76]

But we're gonna face this showdown whether we like it or not.

IF we do, it will be from well defended NATO bases & ships in the region, with the full complement of our best weapons & best operators. It won't be thrown together in a couple days in response to emotional tv reports & polls.

And that's a fair argument...as Ukrainians die.

[old salt]

Gotta get your head out of the Post

Snob. The link I posted was a Wash Post opinion piece by one of their regular contributors that was syndicated around the country.
I posted the NY Post link because it was free.

Those were unarmed Humvees, btw.

yup, but it is a bogus opinion piece, not journalism.

And it is a factually wrong statement that Obama didn't authorize lethal aid after Congress eventually passed that in November 2015.

We can say he should have pushed for more...ok. Not gonna get an argument from me.

But the hyperbole and partisan crap is ridiculous. Unworthy of you.

I'm trying to have a respectful discussion, valuing your knowledge and interest. I know you pay attention way, way more than the average cat.

So, don't throw partisan BS, please.

Fact -- the military aid that Obama approved was non-lethal aid, no matter how much you fluff it up, dissemble & try to discredit the source.

The author I linked is a member of the WP writers group.

Obama approved the legislation, signed it, that enabled lethal aid to be delivered. That's the authorization that Trump used in those first years. Javelins added thereafter.

Again, the boo Obama stuff is simply unworthy. Ukraine has evolved a ton in their democracy and work against corruption. They're not done, but they've come a very long way.

https://www.politico.com/story/2015/03/ ... ine-115999 03/11/2015

In December, Congress approved the Ukraine Freedom Support Act, which authorized up to $350 million in defensive weapons to Ukraine. But the administration has not used that authority, which has prompted lawmakers to consider additional legislation to press the issue.

Last month, House Armed Services Chairman Mac Thornberry (R-Texas) and ranking member Adam Smith (D-Wash.) unveiled a bill to provide $1 billion annually in defensive weapons to Ukraine. And Rep. Eliot Engel of New York, the top Democrat on the Foreign Affairs Committee, is drafting legislation he plans to introduce soon to ramp up Ukraine aid.

A group of 13 senators is eyeing the appropriations process to provide weapons for Ukraine. The group, led by Sen. Kelly Ayotte (R-N.H.), sent a letter Tuesday to Appropriations leaders, urging them to include funding for Ukrainian weapons that was authorized in the December legislation.

The annual defense authorization bill — one of the few so-called must-pass pieces of legislation — is also being eyed as a possible vehicle for pushing military aid to Ukraine.

Still, any of the legislative options could take months to enact, if at all, which means that convincing the president to sign off on arms to Ukraine remains the best option for those pushing it.

“Passing legislation is always an uphill battle,” the aide said. “[But] Congress is not happy where American policy is on this, and that’s bicameral and bipartisan.”

What was in the final package actually approved by Obama ?

[MDlaxfan76]

In the last year of the Obama administration, Congress authorized lethal aid, but it didn’t include the Javelins.

The 2016 National Defense Authorization Act, which became law in November 2015, called for "lethal assistance such as anti-armor weapon systems, mortars, crew-served weapons and ammunition, grenade launchers and ammunition, and small arms and ammunition."

The legislation also called for counter-artillery radars, unmanned aerial tactical surveillance systems and other equipment.


In July 2016, the White House announced a $335 million security assistance package for Ukraine that included "counter-artillery and counter-mortar radars, secure communications, training aids, logistics infrastructure and IT systems, tactical UAVs, and medical equipment."

In 2017, the Trump administration said it would sell lethal aid to Ukraine, and in 2018 it approved a plan to sell Ukraine $47 million in lethal Javelin Missiles. Even though the Trump administration has allowed the weapons, they are far from the frontlines.


Actual package for your light reading pleasure: https://www.congress.gov/114/plaws/publ ... publ92.pdf

[old salt]

In the last year of the Obama administration, Congress authorized lethal aid, but it didn’t include the Javelins.

The 2016 National Defense Authorization Act, which became law in November 2015, called for "lethal assistance such as anti-armor weapon systems, mortars, crew-served weapons and ammunition, grenade launchers and ammunition, and small arms and ammunition."

The legislation also called for counter-artillery radars, unmanned aerial tactical surveillance systems and other equipment.


In July 2016, the White House announced a $335 million security assistance package for Ukraine that included "counter-artillery and counter-mortar radars, secure communications, training aids, logistics infrastructure and IT systems, tactical UAVs, and medical equipment."

In 2017, the Trump administration said it would sell lethal aid to Ukraine, and in 2018 it approved a plan to sell Ukraine $47 million in lethal Javelin Missiles. Even though the Trump administration has allowed the weapons, they are far from the frontlines.


Actual package for your light reading pleasure: https://www.congress.gov/114/plaws/publ ... publ92.pdf

So Obama approved the 2016 Defense budget which authorized spending for "lethal assistanse", but Obama did not use that authority to provide the "lethal assistance" which Congress authorized in the budget. The July 2016 package did not include "lethal assistance".

Trump approved selling lethal aid to Ukraine in 2017 & it began flowing in 2018.