All Things Russia & Ukraine

[old salt]

Thirteen Ukrainian soldiers sent a message to old salt (and Russia and Putin) before perishing in the defense of a Ukrainian island. They were later designated “Heroes of Ukraine” by President Zelensky.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/25/heck

DocBarrister

...& there will be hundreds, even thousands more, ...& it will not alter the inevitable outcome.

Wave the bloody shirt. Political talking points for fools.

Better yet, Putin can stop the invasion and withdraw.

DocBarrister

That will require more than the heroic deaths of Ukrainians. That does not move Putin the way it moves us.

[runrussellrun]

Unprecedented deployment of NATO Response Force (NRF)
(nice dramatic flair by the SecGen)
The process is halting & frustrating but the result is impressive.

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2022 ... ce/362459/

NATO Deploys Response Forces; Warns Russia ‘We Will Defend Every Inch’ of Alliance

Rare emergency summit produces unprecedented order to activate a wide range of ready capabilities.

NATO leaders agreed on Friday to immediately deploy elements of the alliance’s emergency military forces, adding troops and firepower to bolster defenses along its Eastern front.

The unprecedented deployment is meant to deter Russia—whose military is currently invading Ukraine—from attacking NATO members and to prepare alliance forces to respond quickly should an attack occur.

“We are deploying elements of the NATO Response Force on land, at sea, and in the air,” said NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, at alliance headquarters in Brussels, immediately following the summit. NATO leaders had agreed to activate the force on Thursday.

Stoltenberg said the alliance has never before collectively deployed such a force.

“We have over 100 jets at high alert operating in over 30 different locations. And over 120 ships from the High North to the Mediterranean, including three carrier strike groups,” he said. “There must be no space for miscalculation or misunderstanding. We will do whatever it takes to defend every ally, and every inch of NATO territory.”

NATO officials provided no further details about the newly added capabilities.

“We have met today to discuss the gravest threat to Euro-Atlantic security in decades,” NATO leaders said in a joint NATO statement. “We condemn in the strongest possible terms Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, enabled by Belarus. We call on Russia to immediately cease its military assault, to withdraw all its forces from Ukraine and to turn back from the path of aggression it has chosen.”

“The world will hold Russia and Belarus accountable for their actions: Russia as the aggressor, Belarus as the enabler,” Stoltenberg said. “President Putin’s decision to pursue his aggression against Ukraine is a terrible strategic mistake for which Russia will pay a severe price for years to come.”

Alliance members had already sent extra forces to NATO’s easternmost countries in the weeks before the full-scale Russian invasion that began on Wednesday. The United States has tapped roughly 14,000 additional troops to respond to Russia’s buildup: on Thursday, deployment orders were given to the latest 7,000 from Fort Bragg, in North Carolina, and Fort Stewart, in Georgia. Those troops had not left the United States by noon on Friday, Eastern Time, a senior defense official told reporters at the Pentagon.

“These are also very much European troops,” Stoltenberg said, noting that France has the lead of the Very High Readiness Joint Task Force, a component of the NRF that stands ready to deploy within 48 to 72 hours.

“We are now employing elements of the NATO Response Force,” U.S. Air Force Gen. Tod Wolters, NATO supreme allied commander, said in a statement. “This is an historic moment and the very first time the Alliance has employed these high readiness forces in a deterrence and defense role.” Wolters said the measure will “shield and protect the one billion citizens we swore to protect.”

At Friday’s summit, NATO heads of state and government discussed what weapons and equipment they were sharing or willing to share as the alliance built up its deterrence force. Stoltenberg said the gear includes air defense systems, weapons that critics have argued Ukraine badly needed to clear the skies of Russian aircraft and missiles. The group collectively committed to continue to supply Ukrainian forces to fight back the Russian attack.

Officials from the U.S. and other member countries continued to say they will not send troops to face Russian fighters directly. “We admire the courage and tenacity of the Ukrainian Armed Forces and citizens in defending their country,” Wolters said in his statement.

Yet the potential for direct NATO-Russia conflict grew in the past 24 hours. Military leaders have warned that Russia could provoke or unintentionally spark a confrontation with NATO member forces already on high alert. Russia’s foreign ministry warned of “serious military and political repercussions” on Friday after Finland’s president suggested his country may reconsider joining NATO.

Wolters “is very focused on the need to deconflict” with Russian military operations, “to make sure that we don't have incidents—accidents—that can spiral and get out of control and create a very dangerous situation,” Stoltenberg said.

NATO leaders have frequently restated their Article V commitment to consider an attack on one member as an attack on all. “We are clear on this distinction because it is important to make sure that we don't have an even bigger crisis in Europe” said the secretary general.

“This goes far beyond Ukraine. This is about how Russia is actually challenging and contesting our core values for security, and demanding that NATO should withdraw all forces and infrastructure from almost half of our members.”

Stoltenberg also called for additional support for non-NATO countries Georgia, Moldova, and Bosnia-Herzegovina. “There’s no security in Europe without a strong transatlantic bond.”

Russian leader Vladimir Putin, who had massed 190,000 Russian troops along the Ukraine’s border and within Belarus, has sent about 50,000 of them into Ukraine since Wednesday. On Friday, an amphibious force began landing troops “to the west of Mariupol” on the Azov coastline, the official said. Officials expect more to come. U.S. officials believe Russia’s assaulters met more Ukrainian resistance than they expected, but also Russia has appeared to hold back, by not targeting Ukraine’s command-and-control networks, nor overwhelming the country with land forces. Putin’s stated goal is to take Kyiv and replace the Ukrainian government.

“We call on Russia to stop this senseless war, immediately cease its assaults, withdraw all its forces from Ukraine, and turn back to the path of dialogue and turn away from aggression,” said Stoltenberg.

“The Russian people must know the Kremlin’s war on Ukraine will not make Russia more secure. It will not make Russia more respected in the world. It will not lead to a better future for your children.”

At a press conference after the NATO summit, Stoltenberg said that “Russia has walked away” from the NATO-Russia Founding Act—officially, the Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security—in which Moscow agreed to respect territorial boundaries. Putin has “constantly violated” the agreement since invading Crimea in 2014, he said.

“So what we see is Russia shall show no respect for the NATO-Russia Founding Act. If you have a Founding Act between two partners, NATO and Russia, and one partner does not respect that agreement, the agreement doesn't work,” he said.

Is Canada.part of NATO ?

[old salt]

Unprecedented deployment of NATO Response Force (NRF)
(nice dramatic flair by the SecGen)
The process is halting & frustrating but the result is impressive.

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2022 ... ce/362459/

NATO Deploys Response Forces; Warns Russia ‘We Will Defend Every Inch’ of Alliance

Rare emergency summit produces unprecedented order to activate a wide range of ready capabilities.

Is Canada.part of NATO ?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/nato-u ... -1.6364411

https://www.macleans.ca/politics/thousa ... o-ukraine/

[runrussellrun]

Amazing bravery of Zelensky, who is likely to be killed soon.

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/149 ... 33252?s=21

Compare this guys bravery with the bottomless weakness of Justin Trudeau. Like two different species.

I truly despise Trudeau. As should you.

Nobody wants to talk about Trudeau-especially on a Russia/Ukraine theres when there’s a war. Cut the s**t-its either pathetic and/or intentionally subversive and selfish. Take your pick.

He selling. Don't know for whom and why, but he's selling.

He’s selling for attention and winning big.

Lauding Zelensky isn’t relevant?! Or did you miss that part?

topic shaming......the first retort when you have nothing, the last when you are.

some posters seem to excell at it, all the while, contributing to it........and yet "topic shame" those that.....geez.

[runrussellrun]

Unprecedented deployment of NATO Response Force (NRF)
(nice dramatic flair by the SecGen)
The process is halting & frustrating but the result is impressive.

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2022 ... ce/362459/

NATO Deploys Response Forces; Warns Russia ‘We Will Defend Every Inch’ of Alliance

Rare emergency summit produces unprecedented order to activate a wide range of ready capabilities.

Is Canada.part of NATO ?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/nato-u ... -1.6364411

https://www.macleans.ca/politics/thousa ... o-ukraine/

yeah, I know they are........

[Brooklyn]

So intentions and actions are equal? I don’t understand-we have actions on his part but it seems like you give him a pass even when he caused death in the name of international relations from his specific seat. Or do you view them as equal?

I’m starting with a relative extreme to see if you even want to try to consider a spectrum or just think in binary terms.

This question has been posed repeatedly and I have given you and others the same answer which remains unchanged: I continue to condemn ALL foreign war. Obama does not get a pass from me just because he's a Democrat. Recall that I condemned Johnson's role in the Vietnam war and Carter's return of draft registration. As for Obama, again, he TRIED to end the war but your Republicans refused to allow it. In your case, you give them a free pass but I condemn them for their treason and profit seeking warmongering.

Farfromgeneva
Kind of childish and a caricature of a person.

You have been told by the Admin to refrain for any form of mischaracterization. Kindly do so at once.

[old salt]

Unprecedented deployment of NATO Response Force (NRF)
(nice dramatic flair by the SecGen)
The process is halting & frustrating but the result is impressive.

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2022 ... ce/362459/

NATO Deploys Response Forces; Warns Russia ‘We Will Defend Every Inch’ of Alliance

Rare emergency summit produces unprecedented order to activate a wide range of ready capabilities.

Is Canada.part of NATO ?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/nato-u ... -1.6364411

https://www.macleans.ca/politics/thousa ... o-ukraine/

yeah, I know they are........

I realize you were not serious. I want to give credit to our ally to the north.

3,400 Canadian troops are on standby to be deployed to Europe

Canada already has 1,260 troops deployed as part of NATO efforts to contain Russia, including 540 soldiers in the Canadian-led battle group in Latvia as well as staffing for a frigate. Earlier this week, Canada announced it is also deploying 120 gunners, a second frigate and a surveillance aircraft.

[Brooklyn]

jhu72,
... sorry Obama doesn't get a pass because some people said mean things about him. He had exactly the same problem that Trump had. He didn't have the balls to go up against the generals when push came to shove, as it always does. Biden is the only one who has show any balls in that regard.

Like MD and others, I do not see the current situation in the same light as Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanastan, Grenade, etc.

... Vietnam was a Civil War, we had no business there, from day 1.
... Iraq 2 was clearly sold on false pretense and was in the end a Civil War, no reason to be there.
... Afghanastan had a reasonable causa belli, but was mission creeped to death by the usual suspects. Our job was done after clearing out the terrorists and exacting a single pound of flesh from the Taliban and they vacated. Should have been out after 3-6 months max. We have no business nation building in a culture we don't understand and where we are ultimately unwelcome and partnered with a corrupt government and an army that would not fight.
... Ukraine is a young democratic country with a culture we do understand being bullied by a fascist who if he gets away with it we will have to face again, somewhere, sometime. We cannot coexist with this character as a democracy. We will ultimately be forced to fight him or surrender to him. They have shown a willingness to fight for themselves (a prerequisite in my book). We also are fortunate in that we do have a commander in chief that is not going to get caught up in mission creep. He knows how to say no to the generals and partners.

This is a review of the various situations we have been in. I am not making an argument for going to war. I am making an argument that Ukraine deserves a chance and is not an obviously bad wagon to hitch too. Their national interest is the same as OUR NATIONAL INTEREST. I am willing to cut the administration a break, in supporting Ukraine so long as these things remain true, recognizing we may be drawn in to the fight.

As you saw above, NEVER once have I ever given Obama a free pass. I have REPEATEDLY called for the dissolution of the military industrial complex and forum right wingers have commented on that repeatedly as well.


Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan ~ Johnson, Nixon, and Bush deserved Nuremberg tribunals for their treasonous crimes and imperialistic wars of colonialist terrorism.


Ukraine was not welcomed into NATO because it is undemocratic, or so they say. Biggest hypocrisy anywhere since Falangist Spain is a member, invaded Catalonia, and imposed fascist depredations. European nations actually helped those fascists track down President Puigdemont - nobody commented here last year when I mentioned it.


"{Ukraine's} national interest is the same as OUR NATIONAL INTEREST"

Which ones?

We have no interest in that country, the Caucasus region, or the Middle East.



"am willing to cut the administration a break, in supporting Ukraine so long as these things remain "true", recognizing we may be drawn in to the fight"


The USA's interests were not jeopardized in any way when Russia invaded the Chechan Republic of Ichkeria (Chechnya), Georgia, or Dagestan. We were not drawn into their fights nor should we have been. Give us proof that your claims are "true".

[NoLeft]

Things are deadly and terrible for the Ukranians and their military right now. But even two days in to this war, Europe has already folded (as someone else on this forum posted days ago). They have not agreed to kick Russia out of the Swift financial service, which, if done, is an action that actually have some consequences. So....after a few more days of fighting and capturing Kyiv then getting rid of the current government, things will start to settle down. Soon, Europe will start bitching about no more use for sanctions, etc, etc....we've got to recognize the new reality, etc etc....
Within a month I bet the NordStream pipeline will be back on schedule and by the summer the European leadership will be inviting Putin to dinner....
So, again as someone has already posted, what are we doing there for people who won't defend themselves? The European NATO countries total about 3 times as many people as Russia, and with an economy that's an order of magnitude better.....the only reason they don't raise sufficient military to defend themselves is they are too damn weak and lazy and are parasitizing off the USA military presence. Trump was ridiculed for his actions as President but he was absolutely correct to dump on Europe for their effective non-participation in their own defense.

[Brooklyn]

Always the partisan.

Learn something, pal: Professor Sutton was British and did not belong to either party. Neither do I.

I didn't miss the "Republican" shot, pal.

Too much partisan vitriol gets in the way, IMO.

The point is that Putin's tactics are Hitlerian. And that's a very fair assessment.

Nothing "partisan" about the truths expounded by British conservative Professor Sutton. Truth is just that ~ truth.

[Brooklyn]

Thirteen Ukrainian soldiers sent a message to old salt (and Russia and Putin) before perishing in the defense of a Ukrainian island. They were later designated “Heroes of Ukraine” by President Zelensky.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/25/heck

DocBarrister

...& there will be hundreds, even thousands more, ...& it will not alter the inevitable outcome.

Wave the bloody shirt. Political talking points for fools.

Better yet, Putin can stop the invasion and withdraw.

DocBarrister

Alternately, Zalensky can surrender like President Puigdemont was forced to do as the world idly sat by and did nothing to support democracy in Catalonia.

[runrussellrun]

Think Canada has the "reserve" system, like we do. Sure hope they didn't freeze the account of any of reservist military force up in Canada, because they donated funds to people protesting an idiotic mandate. Or, were protesters themselves. See where this leads......you take someones means, than go ask them to "defend" your country on the other side of the globe? Yeah, don't over think, what your over kill, is doing to the acutal "class" of people that are going to actually DO the fighting.

It ain't any of the posters on these threads, and certainly none of their offspring, that will get the call up.

I sure hope I am wrong about where Canada is going to get the additional troops from and they use full time military personnel, not private contractors and weekend warriors, that come cheap.

[Farfromgeneva]

Amazing bravery of Zelensky, who is likely to be killed soon.

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/149 ... 33252?s=21

Compare this guys bravery with the bottomless weakness of Justin Trudeau. Like two different species.

I truly despise Trudeau. As should you.

Nobody wants to talk about Trudeau-especially on a Russia/Ukraine theres when there’s a war. Cut the s**t-its either pathetic and/or intentionally subversive and selfish. Take your pick.

He selling. Don't know for whom and why, but he's selling.

He’s selling for attention and winning big.

Lauding Zelensky isn’t relevant?! Or did you miss that part?

topic shaming......the first retort when you have nothing, the last when you are.

some posters seem to excell at it, all the while, contributing to it........and yet "topic shame" those that.....geez.

Mighty mouse here to the rescue! We get it, everyone except you is a hypocrite and jerk. You're the best humna being in the world and we should all bow down.

[MDlaxfan76]

BTW, if we're willing to provide various weaponry and training to Ukrainian insurgents, at what point do we go to drones?

If we were doing so right now, letting Ukrainians operate them, a heck of a lot of tanks could be destroyed.

Weapons carrying drones -- not a capability that can be provided quickly. Requires operator & maintainer training & experience.
They are still combat aircraft.

yup, sit a Ukrainian in the chair next to an operator, let them work the controls and they knock off tanks.

Surely we have such assets near enough...

[Farfromgeneva]

So intentions and actions are equal? I don’t understand-we have actions on his part but it seems like you give him a pass even when he caused death in the name of international relations from his specific seat. Or do you view them as equal?

I’m starting with a relative extreme to see if you even want to try to consider a spectrum or just think in binary terms.

This question has been posed repeatedly and I have given you and others the same answer which remains unchanged: I continue to condemn ALL foreign war. Obama does not get a pass from me just because he's a Democrat. Recall that I condemned Johnson's role in the Vietnam war and Carter's return of draft registration. As for Obama, again, he TRIED to end the war but your Republicans refused to allow it. In your case, you give them a free pass but I condemn them for their treason and profit seeking warmongering.

Farfromgeneva
Kind of childish and a caricature of a person.

You have been told by the Admin to refrain for any form of mischaracterization. Kindly do so at once.

I was specifically told? Define exactly what I did. Or can I take exception to anything from anyone at anytime yet it's ok to constantly be bellicose and charge me with "my people" etc as if you can't discern anyone here at all? Seems like you are looking for asymmetric treatment. "in my case I gave them a free pass" that's a gross mischaracterization, in fact you haven't even bothered to inquire as to my position. Your post is bulls**t.

[MDlaxfan76]

Always the partisan.

Learn something, pal: Professor Sutton was British and did not belong to either party. Neither do I.

I didn't miss the "Republican" shot, pal.

Too much partisan vitriol gets in the way, IMO.

The point is that Putin's tactics are Hitlerian. And that's a very fair assessment.

Nothing "partisan" about the truths expounded by British conservative Professor Sutton. Truth is just that ~ truth.

It's simply not responsive to this issue...at all.

[runrussellrun]

Things are deadly and terrible for the Ukranians and their military right now. But even two days in to this war, Europe has already folded (as someone else on this forum posted days ago). They have not agreed to kick Russia out of the Swift financial service, which, if done, is an action that actually have some consequences. So....after a few more days of fighting and capturing Kyiv then getting rid of the current government, things will start to settle down. Soon, Europe will start bitching about no more use for sanctions, etc, etc....we've got to recognize the new reality, etc etc....
Within a month I bet the NordStream pipeline will be back on schedule and by the summer the European leadership will be inviting Putin to dinner....
So, again as someone has already posted, what are we doing there for people who won't defend themselves? The European NATO countries total about 3 times as many people as Russia, and with an economy that's an order of magnitude better.....the only reason they don't raise sufficient military to defend themselves is they are too damn weak and lazy and are parasitizing off the USA military presence. Trump was ridiculed for his actions as President but he was absolutely correct to dump on Europe for their effective non-participation in their own defense.

who cares.....as long as the check clears. Who did the Ukraine make that 1.5 billion dollar gun purchase check out to? Same name we pay our taxes too, or some other name, that sounds like Raytheon .

How are the Burisma gas pipelines holding up? That IS what matters.

[PizzaSnake]

Amazing bravery of Zelensky, who is likely to be killed soon.

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/149 ... 33252?s=21

Compare this guys bravery with the bottomless weakness of Justin Trudeau. Like two different species.

I truly despise Trudeau. As should you.

Nobody wants to talk about Trudeau-especially on a Russia/Ukraine theres when there’s a war. Cut the s**t-its either pathetic and/or intentionally subversive and selfish. Take your pick.

He selling. Don't know for whom and why, but he's selling.

He’s selling for attention and winning big.

Thanks for reminding me about feeding.

[runrussellrun]

BTW, if we're willing to provide various weaponry and training to Ukrainian insurgents, at what point do we go to drones?

If we were doing so right now, letting Ukrainians operate them, a heck of a lot of tanks could be destroyed.

Weapons carrying drones -- not a capability that can be provided quickly. Requires operator & maintainer training & experience.
They are still combat aircraft.

yup, sit a Ukrainian in the chair next to an operator, let them work the controls and they knock off tanks.

Surely we have such assets near enough...

these are still driven by humans? think the Ukranians know the Sergeant is still behind them, to kill them, if they don't keep on driving them onto their land. Some value human life, knowing the barrel of Putins gun is aimed at the Russian tank crews too.......Russians hardly alone at killing retreating troops, that are their own. Russians killing Russians. Heck, many of the first casualties for Picketts charge where a few southern guys saying, "F this, I'll take my chances, no way General Lee gonna shoot me " BAM......you do that early and often, the rest get the message. Now go die.

You think the Reservists, from Canada, will get called up. You know , or your son rather, anyone that is currently active in any of our US military reserve force (s)

[old salt]

BTW, if we're willing to provide various weaponry and training to Ukrainian insurgents, at what point do we go to drones?

If we were doing so right now, letting Ukrainians operate them, a heck of a lot of tanks could be destroyed.

Weapons carrying drones -- not a capability that can be provided quickly. Requires operator & maintainer training & experience.
They are still combat aircraft.

yup, sit a Ukrainian in the chair next to an operator, let them work the controls and they knock off tanks.

Surely we have such assets near enough...

We'd have to send in US service members &/or contractors. It's a capability that could maybe have been developed starting 6 mos ago, & that's a stretch.

You also need intel & training to maintain situational awareness & to id targets. It is actually more challenging, in that regard, than operating a manned attack aircraft. It's not just plug & play.