All Things Russia & Ukraine

[Farfromgeneva]

I agree that we shouldn't be sending troops to Ukraine to help them fight; but respectfully, I don’t think Vietnam is a good example. The people of Vietnam never wanted a civil war with America as the manipulative antagonist. They wanted to be one free sovereign nation and declared that very definitely after the 2nd World War on September 2, 1945. Yet arrogant France, England and America decided they knew better and continued to meddle in the affairs of the Vietnamese people—the US especially by effectively dividing the country North and South and influencing political activities in the South. There was a point when all of Vietnam had a saying amongst themselves: “Two years” which is what they were led to believe was the amount of time remaining where they could realize their united independence. But the politicians and warmongers in America decided to subvert that effort as well. It’s all there in the Pentagon Papers. As far back as Truman, the US was sending money to keep their finger in Vietnam’s pie. Meddling Arrogant America was the ultimate reason for the war on Vietnam. I don’t see the same elements in place with Ukraine and Russia. In addition, the Vietnamese people fought plenty and to the death. No one could accuse them of shying away from fighting. For hundreds of years, they fought the Chinese, French, Japanese and lastly the Americans until they finally triumphed in the end.

They certainly did plenty of fighting up north. But if you recall, people in the south dropped their weapons on the field and repeatedly ran away from combat. The reason for this, of course, being only too obvious as they were on the side of their fellow Vietnamese from up north and against the imperialist invaders from the colonialist USA.

Despite all, the pro war crowd back then (and even today) said our soldiers were there fighting for our "freedom" and that freedom is not free. All bulls____t of course. Our soldiers were sacrificed as cannon fodder so that wealthy elites could profit from the war just as in Afghanistan and Iraq. Everybody without exception knows that this is the whole truth and nothing but the truth. This is why some delusionals want another war as it means more war profit for them.

I know you think you are always correct but can you distinguish between war mongerers and people who see it as a necessary evil?

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

I agree that we shouldn't be sending troops to Ukraine to help them fight; but respectfully, I don’t think Vietnam is a good example. The people of Vietnam never wanted a civil war with America as the manipulative antagonist. They wanted to be one free sovereign nation and declared that very definitely after the 2nd World War on September 2, 1945. Yet arrogant France, England and America decided they knew better and continued to meddle in the affairs of the Vietnamese people—the US especially by effectively dividing the country North and South and influencing political activities in the South. There was a point when all of Vietnam had a saying amongst themselves: “Two years” which is what they were led to believe was the amount of time remaining where they could realize their united independence. But the politicians and warmongers in America decided to subvert that effort as well. It’s all there in the Pentagon Papers. As far back as Truman, the US was sending money to keep their finger in Vietnam’s pie. Meddling Arrogant America was the ultimate reason for the war on Vietnam. I don’t see the same elements in place with Ukraine and Russia. In addition, the Vietnamese people fought plenty and to the death. No one could accuse them of shying away from fighting. For hundreds of years, they fought the Chinese, French, Japanese and lastly the Americans until they finally triumphed in the end.

They certainly did plenty of fighting up north. But if you recall, people in the south dropped their weapons on the field and repeatedly ran away from combat. The reason for this, of course, being only too obvious as they were on the side of their fellow Vietnamese from up north and against the imperialist invaders from the colonialist USA.

That's a great distinction and a great point.

Despite all, the pro war crowd back then... said our soldiers were there fighting for our "freedom" and that freedom is not free. All bulls____t of course. Our soldiers were sacrificed as cannon fodder...

Well said.

[Brooklyn]

Zelensky ready to talk terms with Putin for neutral status
A visibly shaken President Zelensky addressed Ukraine explaining that he was the number one target for Russian forces, and that he was willing to discuss Russian demands for neutral status of Ukraine.

Biden needs to call Putin, advise him to declare an immediate cease fire & meet with Zelensky, or not rule out a military response from the US.

... I am not sure Zelensky has the ability to even make that deal. His own countrymen may be ahead of him. They are going to have to be talked down. They will see this as being sold out. There is also another very intriguing possibility, that I will keep to myself.

Last year I mentioned the plight of Carles Puigdemont of Catalonia and how he and his followers declared independence from Spain. His people were attacked by fascist police on the streets of Barcelona and he was ultimately arrested on a charge of treason. Nobody lifted a finger to help him and his people. The world looked the other way as fascists (this time, REAL fascists) attacked a people. Unlike the Ukrainians and Russians, there is a genuine ethnic difference between them as Catalonians were a civilization for over 500 years before Spain came into existence. They have always kept their ethnic identity and culture. Nobody more deserves to be free of fascist tyranny than do the Catalonians. For those who want war in Russia, how many want war in the Iberian peninsula so that people can be free of a true fascist (Falangist) government?

If President Puigdemont had to surrender, than Zalensky should be forced to do the same. There should be no war. Biden is not president of Ukraine and the people there don't pay taxes to finance his salary. Biden needs to solve the problems we have here. Anybody wants a war? Don't wimp out - go over there and fight it yourself.

[Brooklyn]

I know you think you are always correct but can you distinguish between war mongerers and people who see it as a necessary evil?

Give specific examples of who you mean.

[Brooklyn]

They certainly did plenty of fighting up north. But if you recall, people in the south dropped their weapons on the field and repeatedly ran away from combat. The reason for this, of course, being only too obvious as they were on the side of their fellow Vietnamese from up north and against the imperialist invaders from the colonialist USA.

That's a great distinction and a great point.

Despite all, the pro war crowd back then... said our soldiers were there fighting for our "freedom" and that freedom is not free. All bulls____t of course. Our soldiers were sacrificed as cannon fodder...

Well said.

[Farfromgeneva]

I know you think you are always correct but can you distinguish between war mongerers and people who see it as a necessary evil?

Give specific examples of who you mean.

Donald Rumsfeld vs Obama (who ran drone operations and would do the same as Biden in this circumstance we are presented with now)

[MDlaxfan76]

Brook, you see everything through a single lens, no nuance allowed.

But I also think we're well served to have skeptics who challenge the logic of war.

I just think it's a heck of a lot more complicated than seeing this as a Vietnam moment.

Much more akin to the Hitlerian ambition and tactics.

I mean, was there any country Nazi Germany attacked that shouldn't have just surrendered in order to avoid war?

You've argued vociferously that the Taliban should be able to ruthlessly rule Afghanistan because the more western leaning Afghans failed to prevail, indeed laid down their arms at the inevitability they perceived.

Ok, but in Ukraine, the Ukrainians have actually had a series of free elections in which their preference was clearly demonstrated.

And they're willing to fight.

Should that not be respected, or is it just up to Putin and the exercise of a superpower military?

[jhu72]

EU is reported to have sanctioned Putin and Lavarov personally. US has not yet.

[MDlaxfan76]

BTW, if we're willing to provide various weaponry and training to Ukrainian insurgents, at what point do we go to drones?

If we were doing so right now, letting Ukrainians operate them, a heck of a lot of tanks could be destroyed.

[PizzaSnake]

Brook, you see everything through a single lens, no nuance allowed.

But I also think we're well served to have skeptics who challenge the logic of war.

I just think it's a heck of a lot more complicated than seeing this as a Vietnam moment.

Much more akin to the Hitlerian ambition and tactics.

I mean, was there any country Nazi Germany attacked that shouldn't have just surrendered in order to avoid war?

You've argued vociferously that the Taliban should be able to ruthlessly rule Afghanistan because the more western leaning Afghans failed to prevail, indeed laid down their arms at the inevitability they perceived.

Ok, but in Ukraine, the Ukrainians have actually had a series of free elections in which their preference was clearly demonstrated.

And they're willing to fight.

Should that not be respected, or is it just up to Putin and the exercise of a superpower military?

"Allies" should treat the US claims of friendship or assistance with incredulity for the same reason Republicans tend to favor "conservative" status quo. Business likes a predictable environment. Change is hard to plan for and makes generating the almighty profit more challenging. Forget what promises Uncle Sam makes, watch the money, as the various native North American residents learned, painfully, over the centuries of their interactions with the US government.

Speaking of profit, didn't our good Christian leaders take the lesson of the "golden calf" in their good book? What happened to not lending for interest? Ah, details, details... Oh, that's right, they just assume their followers are semi-literate rubes who will follow the preacher man's lead. Where is Martin Luther when you need him?

[Brooklyn]

I know you think you are always correct but can you distinguish between war mongerers and people who see it as a necessary evil?

Give specific examples of who you mean.

Donald Rumsfeld vs Obama (who ran drone operations and would do the same as Biden in this circumstance we are presented with now)

Rumsfeld - warmonger supreme ~ we all know his true motivation$:



http://www.banderasnews.com/0611/images/rumsein.jpg



Obama wanted to end the war but was called "surrender monkey" by those who profited from war but refused to fight in it:


https://angrywhitebitch.files.wordpress ... monkey.jpg



Had I been Obama I would have given those of you who love war an open invitation to enlist and to actually fight the war, Meantime we would withdraw all other troops. This way those of you who love fighting can back up your ideas with actions.

[Brooklyn]

Brook, you see everything through a single lens, no nuance allowed.

But I also think we're well served to have skeptics who challenge the logic of war.

I just think it's a heck of a lot more complicated than seeing this as a Vietnam moment.

Much more akin to the Hitlerian ambition and tactics.

I mean, was there any country Nazi Germany attacked that shouldn't have just surrendered in order to avoid war?

You've argued vociferously that the Taliban should be able to ruthlessly rule Afghanistan because the more western leaning Afghans failed to prevail, indeed laid down their arms at the inevitability they perceived.

Ok, but in Ukraine, the Ukrainians have actually had a series of free elections in which their preference was clearly demonstrated.

And they're willing to fight.

Should that not be respected, or is it just up to Putin and the exercise of a superpower military?

Always bear in mind that Hitler was a Republican Wall Street invention as proven by CONSERVATIVE historian Antony Sutton:


https://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/Sut ... Hitler.pdf

[MDlaxfan76]

Brook, you see everything through a single lens, no nuance allowed.

But I also think we're well served to have skeptics who challenge the logic of war.

I just think it's a heck of a lot more complicated than seeing this as a Vietnam moment.

Much more akin to the Hitlerian ambition and tactics.

I mean, was there any country Nazi Germany attacked that shouldn't have just surrendered in order to avoid war?

You've argued vociferously that the Taliban should be able to ruthlessly rule Afghanistan because the more western leaning Afghans failed to prevail, indeed laid down their arms at the inevitability they perceived.

Ok, but in Ukraine, the Ukrainians have actually had a series of free elections in which their preference was clearly demonstrated.

And they're willing to fight.

Should that not be respected, or is it just up to Putin and the exercise of a superpower military?

Always bear in mind that Hitler was a Republican Wall Street invention as proven by CONSERVATIVE historian Antony Sutton:


https://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/Sut ... Hitler.pdf

Always the partisan.

[Brooklyn]

Always the partisan.

Learn something, pal: Professor Sutton was British and did not belong to either party. Neither do I.

[PizzaSnake]

Sad but droll:

"Ukrainians flocked online Friday to look up a recipe: molotov cocktails."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... ce-russia/

Admirable instinct, but they will get hung out to dry. Could complicate Poontang's plan for Ukraine assimilation if a bunch of Russian troops get flambéd, however.

[Peter Brown]

Amazing bravery of Zelensky, who is likely to be killed soon.

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/149 ... 33252?s=21

Compare this guys bravery with the bottomless weakness of Justin Trudeau. Like two different species.

I truly despise Trudeau. As should you.

[PizzaSnake]

Oh boy. Now shite is going to get "up close and personal". Dogs of war.

"A squad of Chechen special forces 'hunters' has been unleashed in Ukraine to detain or kill a set of specific Ukrainian officials.

Each soldier was reportedly given a special 'deck of cards' with Ukrainian officials' photos and descriptions on them, a Moscow Telegram channel with links to the security establishment reported.

The list is of officials and security officers suspected of 'crimes' by the Russian Investigative Committee, the report added."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... cials.html

Maybe a little eau du petrol for them? Just apply liberally before and after prayers...

Maybe the US should just put a billion dollar bounty on Putin's head and see what transpires? I mean, trust the "free market", right Repubs?

[Farfromgeneva]

I know you think you are always correct but can you distinguish between war mongerers and people who see it as a necessary evil?

Give specific examples of who you mean.

Donald Rumsfeld vs Obama (who ran drone operations and would do the same as Biden in this circumstance we are presented with now)

Rumsfeld - warmonger supreme ~ we all know his true motivation$:



http://www.banderasnews.com/0611/images/rumsein.jpg



Obama wanted to end the war but was called "surrender monkey" by those who profited from war but refused to fight in it:


https://angrywhitebitch.files.wordpress ... monkey.jpg



Had I been Obama I would have given those of you who love war an open invitation to enlist and to actually fight the war, Meantime we would withdraw all other troops. This way those of you who love fighting can back up your ideas with actions.

So intentions and actions are equal? I don’t understand-we have actions on his part but it seems like you give him a pass even when he caused death in the name of international relations from his specific seat. Or do you view them as equal?

I’m starting with a relative extreme to see if you even want to try to consider a spectrum or just think in binary terms.

[Farfromgeneva]

Brook, you see everything through a single lens, no nuance allowed.

But I also think we're well served to have skeptics who challenge the logic of war.

I just think it's a heck of a lot more complicated than seeing this as a Vietnam moment.

Much more akin to the Hitlerian ambition and tactics.

I mean, was there any country Nazi Germany attacked that shouldn't have just surrendered in order to avoid war?

You've argued vociferously that the Taliban should be able to ruthlessly rule Afghanistan because the more western leaning Afghans failed to prevail, indeed laid down their arms at the inevitability they perceived.

Ok, but in Ukraine, the Ukrainians have actually had a series of free elections in which their preference was clearly demonstrated.

And they're willing to fight.

Should that not be respected, or is it just up to Putin and the exercise of a superpower military?

Always bear in mind that Hitler was a Republican Wall Street invention as proven by CONSERVATIVE historian Antony Sutton:


https://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/Sut ... Hitler.pdf

Always the partisan.

Kind of childish and a caricature of a person.

[jhu72]

I know you think you are always correct but can you distinguish between war mongerers and people who see it as a necessary evil?

Give specific examples of who you mean.

Donald Rumsfeld vs Obama (who ran drone operations and would do the same as Biden in this circumstance we are presented with now)

Rumsfeld - warmonger supreme ~ we all know his true motivation$:



http://www.banderasnews.com/0611/images/rumsein.jpg



Obama wanted to end the war but was called "surrender monkey" by those who profited from war but refused to fight in it:


https://angrywhitebitch.files.wordpress ... monkey.jpg



Had I been Obama I would have given those of you who love war an open invitation to enlist and to actually fight the war, Meantime we would withdraw all other troops. This way those of you who love fighting can back up your ideas with actions.

... sorry Obama doesn't get a pass because some people said mean things about him. He had exactly the same problem that Trump had. He didn't have the balls to go up against the generals when push came to shove, as it always does. Biden is the only one who has show any balls in that regard.

Like MD and others, I do not see the current situation in the same light as Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanastan, Grenade, etc.

... Vietnam was a Civil War, we had no business there, from day 1.
... Iraq 2 was clearly sold on false pretense and was in the end a Civil War, no reason to be there.
... Afghanastan had a reasonable causa belli, but was mission creeped to death by the usual suspects. Our job was done after clearing out the terrorists and exacting a single pound of flesh from the Taliban and they vacated. Should have been out after 3-6 months max. We have no business nation building in a culture we don't understand and where we are ultimately unwelcome and partnered with a corrupt government and an army that would not fight.
... Ukraine is a young democratic country with a culture we do understand being bullied by a fascist who if he gets away with it we will have to face again, somewhere, sometime. We cannot coexist with this character as a democracy. We will ultimately be forced to fight him or surrender to him. They have shown a willingness to fight for themselves (a prerequisite in my book). We also are fortunate in that we do have a commander in chief that is not going to get caught up in mission creep. He knows how to say no to the generals and partners.

This is a review of the various situations we have been in. I am not making an argument for going to war. I am making an argument that Ukraine deserves a chance and is not an obviously bad wagon to hitch too. Their national interest is the same as OUR NATIONAL INTEREST. I am willing to cut the administration a break, in supporting Ukraine so long as these things remain true, recognizing we may be drawn in to the fight.