North Carolina 2022

[jrn19]

Don’t think only having 1 title is that much of an indictment; winning the title is hard. But 2 F4’s in 13 years in comparison to their rivals doesn’t measure up.

Since 2009, Duke has 9 F4’s. Maryland has 8. Notre Dame has 5. Denver has 5. Virginia has 5. Cuse fired Desko for 2 F4’s in that time frame, same with Petro at Hopkins. Obviously he’s achieved much more than Haus, but that was a low bar and the level of recruit he’s brought in is as high as anyone.

I dunno.
Other than UVA, any other school have as many pretty girls to be distracted by?

Seriously, UNC is a terrific school, and has attracted a lot of excellent players over the years, for sure. But I really do think that the way ratings out of HS are created created a misimpression about how talented those classes are.

I'm biased, but if you don't have an All-American goalie and/or an All-American FOGO, as well as a really good team throughout, it's more a matter of luck at making a F4. Add one or both of those and chances go up significantly.

They did have RG Keenan and Bones Kelly over that period...but...

Maryland’s had an AA FOGO for…one of their F4’s? Duke hasn’t had good goalie play before Adler in years. They won a title in 2014 with like 47% goalie play.

Even if the argument is UNC’s classes aren’t as good as their rankings…are we saying they’re still any worse or significantly worse than MD’s or Duke’s or UVA’s or Denver’s? Or ND’s? If the players they’re recruiting aren’t as good, then they’re not recruiting as well and there’s no reason UNC shouldn’t recruit as well as those schools. If they are but not getting the same results; then they’re not developing as well as them. Either way, there’s something that’s stopping them from achieving nearly the same level of results as their peer schools and it’s not the resources or the school or anything like that cause UNC has all that in spades

[Matnum PI]

If they are but not getting the same results; then they’re not developing as well as them. Either way, there’s something that’s stopping them from achieving nearly the same level of results as their peer schools and it’s not the resources or the school or anything like that cause UNC has all that in spades.

Yes. That's what I see (as well). Though, I don't see the development so much as individual as communal. Though I've never really checked, I don't think UNC players are any worse in the PLL or whatever as the players from other perennial powers. As individuals, they're as good as the individuals on MD, Duke, UVA, etc. As a team, less so. For whatever reason, the UNC teams seem to consistently be a step or two behind the rest. Yes, they win games. Yes, they go to the Final Four or, as mentioned, win a National C'ship. but on the whole, year after year, other teams are consistently there while UNC is more sporadic. And, still, they continue to bring in great, great talent. It's a strange thing.

[Farfromgeneva]

Maybe the bigger indictment is they’ve only been in four quarters since 2010. First rd losses in 2011-2012, 2014 & 2017. Didn’t make tourney in 2018-2019. Had as many quarters under haus-just no final
Fours between 1993-2016!

[Typical Lax Dad]

If they are but not getting the same results; then they’re not developing as well as them. Either way, there’s something that’s stopping them from achieving nearly the same level of results as their peer schools and it’s not the resources or the school or anything like that cause UNC has all that in spades.

Yes. That's what I see (as well). Though, I don't see the development so much as individual as communal. Though I've never really checked, I don't think UNC players are any worse in the PLL or whatever as the players from other perennial powers. As individuals, they're as good as the individuals on MD, Duke, UVA, etc. As a team, less so. For whatever reason, the UNC teams seem to consistently be a step or two behind the rest. Yes, they win games. Yes, they go to the Final Four or, as mentioned, win a National C'ship. but on the whole, year after year, other teams are consistently there while UNC is more sporadic. And, still, they continue to bring in great, great talent. It's a strange thing.

You have to be careful with “great great talent”. I think UNC has a selection/Identification problem. Maryland has supplemented recruiting with transfers. Not sure UNC has been as active in the transfer market as Duke or ND?

[wgdsr]

are we doing notre dame and duke next? i want some of that duke action.

[MDlaxfan76]

Don’t think only having 1 title is that much of an indictment; winning the title is hard. But 2 F4’s in 13 years in comparison to their rivals doesn’t measure up.

Since 2009, Duke has 9 F4’s. Maryland has 8. Notre Dame has 5. Denver has 5. Virginia has 5. Cuse fired Desko for 2 F4’s in that time frame, same with Petro at Hopkins. Obviously he’s achieved much more than Haus, but that was a low bar and the level of recruit he’s brought in is as high as anyone.

I dunno.
Other than UVA, any other school have as many pretty girls to be distracted by?

Seriously, UNC is a terrific school, and has attracted a lot of excellent players over the years, for sure. But I really do think that the way ratings out of HS are created created a misimpression about how talented those classes are.

I'm biased, but if you don't have an All-American goalie and/or an All-American FOGO, as well as a really good team throughout, it's more a matter of luck at making a F4. Add one or both of those and chances go up significantly.

They did have RG Keenan and Bones Kelly over that period...but...

Maryland’s had an AA FOGO for…one of their F4’s? Duke hasn’t had good goalie play before Adler in years. They won a title in 2014 with like 47% goalie play.

Even if the argument is UNC’s classes aren’t as good as their rankings…are we saying they’re still any worse or significantly worse than MD’s or Duke’s or UVA’s or Denver’s? Or ND’s? If the players they’re recruiting aren’t as good, then they’re not recruiting as well and there’s no reason UNC shouldn’t recruit as well as those schools. If they are but not getting the same results; then they’re not developing as well as them. Either way, there’s something that’s stopping them from achieving nearly the same level of results as their peer schools and it’s not the resources or the school or anything like that cause UNC has all that in spades

Are you a UNC alum?

I'm not, so I find it a bit unseemly to be critical of a program on their thread.

If UNC alums/fans want to come on here and clamor for a coaching regime change, I'm ok with that. Not seemly for fans of other programs to do so...but that's my POV.

My own sense is they run a pretty darn good, clean program that many schools would give their eye-teeth to have.

I was, however, critical of the leading participation in ER, not specific to the program but rather that I felt it was awful for the youth. I was bit sharper in my critique of the relative lions of the game who participated in the vanguard of that ever earlier progression than I was Breschi, because I felt they had the gravitas to drive rule changes. We had to wait for the women's side to finally get that done! But Breschi was indeed one of those pushing hardest ever earlier.

Whatever the reason for the minute differences between a Top 10 expected contender and one which breaks through to multiple F4's and championship wins, I'd just say that they perennially have a really tough teams to beat. In 2016 they "over performed" and in other years we could say they did not.

[Farfromgeneva]

If they are but not getting the same results; then they’re not developing as well as them. Either way, there’s something that’s stopping them from achieving nearly the same level of results as their peer schools and it’s not the resources or the school or anything like that cause UNC has all that in spades.

Yes. That's what I see (as well). Though, I don't see the development so much as individual as communal. Though I've never really checked, I don't think UNC players are any worse in the PLL or whatever as the players from other perennial powers. As individuals, they're as good as the individuals on MD, Duke, UVA, etc. As a team, less so. For whatever reason, the UNC teams seem to consistently be a step or two behind the rest. Yes, they win games. Yes, they go to the Final Four or, as mentioned, win a National C'ship. but on the whole, year after year, other teams are consistently there while UNC is more sporadic. And, still, they continue to bring in great, great talent. It's a strange thing.

You have to be careful with “great great talent”. I think UNC has a selection/Identification problem. Maryland has supplemented recruiting with transfers. Not sure UNC has been as active in the transfer market as Duke or ND?

Chris Gray but net lost more it seems as fifth years bounce.

[Farfromgeneva]

are we doing notre dame and duke next? i want some of that duke action.

Notre dame. One final and their anointed. But you take the Irish on you’ll have all the LI parents on your a**

[jrn19]

Don’t think only having 1 title is that much of an indictment; winning the title is hard. But 2 F4’s in 13 years in comparison to their rivals doesn’t measure up.

Since 2009, Duke has 9 F4’s. Maryland has 8. Notre Dame has 5. Denver has 5. Virginia has 5. Cuse fired Desko for 2 F4’s in that time frame, same with Petro at Hopkins. Obviously he’s achieved much more than Haus, but that was a low bar and the level of recruit he’s brought in is as high as anyone.

I dunno.
Other than UVA, any other school have as many pretty girls to be distracted by?

Seriously, UNC is a terrific school, and has attracted a lot of excellent players over the years, for sure. But I really do think that the way ratings out of HS are created created a misimpression about how talented those classes are.

I'm biased, but if you don't have an All-American goalie and/or an All-American FOGO, as well as a really good team throughout, it's more a matter of luck at making a F4. Add one or both of those and chances go up significantly.

They did have RG Keenan and Bones Kelly over that period...but...

Maryland’s had an AA FOGO for…one of their F4’s? Duke hasn’t had good goalie play before Adler in years. They won a title in 2014 with like 47% goalie play.

Even if the argument is UNC’s classes aren’t as good as their rankings…are we saying they’re still any worse or significantly worse than MD’s or Duke’s or UVA’s or Denver’s? Or ND’s? If the players they’re recruiting aren’t as good, then they’re not recruiting as well and there’s no reason UNC shouldn’t recruit as well as those schools. If they are but not getting the same results; then they’re not developing as well as them. Either way, there’s something that’s stopping them from achieving nearly the same level of results as their peer schools and it’s not the resources or the school or anything like that cause UNC has all that in spades

Are you a UNC alum?

I'm not, so I find it a bit unseemly to be critical of a program on their thread.

If UNC alums/fans want to come on here and clamor for a coaching regime change, I'm ok with that. Not seemly for fans of other programs to do so...but that's my POV.

My own sense is they run a pretty darn good, clean program that many schools would give their eye-teeth to have.

I was, however, critical of the leading participation in ER, not specific to the program but rather that I felt it was awful for the youth. I was bit sharper in my critique of the relative lions of the game who participated in the vanguard of that ever earlier progression than I was Breschi, because I felt they had the gravitas to drive rule changes. We had to wait for the women's side to finally get that done! But Breschi was indeed one of those pushing hardest ever earlier.

Whatever the reason for the minute differences between a Top 10 expected contender and one which breaks through to multiple F4's and championship wins, I'd just say that they perennially have a really tough teams to beat. In 2016 they "over performed" and in other years we could say they did not.

No, but it’s an Internet message board and everyone here is discussing UNC’s performance, so I thought I’d chime in. I also don’t think anything I’ve said is particularly critical. The results are what they are. They aren’t a perennial F4 program in a conference/with common opponents who are perennial F4 programs.

[Farfromgeneva]

If only maryland had that problem…hop has one final four since 2008…

[runrussellrun]

Don’t think only having 1 title is that much of an indictment; winning the title is hard. But 2 F4’s in 13 years in comparison to their rivals doesn’t measure up.

Since 2009, Duke has 9 F4’s. Maryland has 8. Notre Dame has 5. Denver has 5. Virginia has 5. Cuse fired Desko for 2 F4’s in that time frame, same with Petro at Hopkins. Obviously he’s achieved much more than Haus, but that was a low bar and the level of recruit he’s brought in is as high as anyone.

I dunno.
Other than UVA, any other school have as many pretty girls to be distracted by?

Seriously, UNC is a terrific school, and has attracted a lot of excellent players over the years, for sure. But I really do think that the way ratings out of HS are created created a misimpression about how talented those classes are.

I'm biased, but if you don't have an All-American goalie and/or an All-American FOGO, as well as a really good team throughout, it's more a matter of luck at making a F4. Add one or both of those and chances go up significantly.

They did have RG Keenan and Bones Kelly over that period...but...

Maryland’s had an AA FOGO for…one of their F4’s? Duke hasn’t had good goalie play before Adler in years. They won a title in 2014 with like 47% goalie play.

Even if the argument is UNC’s classes aren’t as good as their rankings…are we saying they’re still any worse or significantly worse than MD’s or Duke’s or UVA’s or Denver’s? Or ND’s? If the players they’re recruiting aren’t as good, then they’re not recruiting as well and there’s no reason UNC shouldn’t recruit as well as those schools. If they are but not getting the same results; then they’re not developing as well as them. Either way, there’s something that’s stopping them from achieving nearly the same level of results as their peer schools and it’s not the resources or the school or anything like that cause UNC has all that in spades

Are you a UNC alum?

I'm not, so I find it a bit unseemly to be critical of a program on their thread.

If UNC alums/fans want to come on here and clamor for a coaching regime change, I'm ok with that. Not seemly for fans of other programs to do so...but that's my POV.

My own sense is they run a pretty darn good, clean program that many schools would give their eye-teeth to have.

I was, however, critical of the leading participation in ER, not specific to the program but rather that I felt it was awful for the youth. I was bit sharper in my critique of the relative lions of the game who participated in the vanguard of that ever earlier progression than I was Breschi, because I felt they had the gravitas to drive rule changes. We had to wait for the women's side to finally get that done! But Breschi was indeed one of those pushing hardest ever earlier.

Whatever the reason for the minute differences between a Top 10 expected contender and one which breaks through to multiple F4's and championship wins, I'd just say that they perennially have a really tough teams to beat. In 2016 they "over performed" and in other years we could say they did not.

dude.......what gives......if you can't see the mixed messaging in this rant, seek help. All the blue words are yours. All of them. you just criticized coach Breschi, for ER on the UNC thread. Which you just told us was "unseemly" behavior. Place just is weirdo land.......

[Typical Lax Dad]

If they are but not getting the same results; then they’re not developing as well as them. Either way, there’s something that’s stopping them from achieving nearly the same level of results as their peer schools and it’s not the resources or the school or anything like that cause UNC has all that in spades.

Yes. That's what I see (as well). Though, I don't see the development so much as individual as communal. Though I've never really checked, I don't think UNC players are any worse in the PLL or whatever as the players from other perennial powers. As individuals, they're as good as the individuals on MD, Duke, UVA, etc. As a team, less so. For whatever reason, the UNC teams seem to consistently be a step or two behind the rest. Yes, they win games. Yes, they go to the Final Four or, as mentioned, win a National C'ship. but on the whole, year after year, other teams are consistently there while UNC is more sporadic. And, still, they continue to bring in great, great talent. It's a strange thing.

You have to be careful with “great great talent”. I think UNC has a selection/Identification problem. Maryland has supplemented recruiting with transfers. Not sure UNC has been as active in the transfer market as Duke or ND?

Chris Gray but net lost more it seems as fifth years bounce.

I loved Chris Gray in high school. Stuck with his BU commitment despite big schools coming after him late.

[Farfromgeneva]

If they are but not getting the same results; then they’re not developing as well as them. Either way, there’s something that’s stopping them from achieving nearly the same level of results as their peer schools and it’s not the resources or the school or anything like that cause UNC has all that in spades.

Yes. That's what I see (as well). Though, I don't see the development so much as individual as communal. Though I've never really checked, I don't think UNC players are any worse in the PLL or whatever as the players from other perennial powers. As individuals, they're as good as the individuals on MD, Duke, UVA, etc. As a team, less so. For whatever reason, the UNC teams seem to consistently be a step or two behind the rest. Yes, they win games. Yes, they go to the Final Four or, as mentioned, win a National C'ship. but on the whole, year after year, other teams are consistently there while UNC is more sporadic. And, still, they continue to bring in great, great talent. It's a strange thing.

You have to be careful with “great great talent”. I think UNC has a selection/Identification problem. Maryland has supplemented recruiting with transfers. Not sure UNC has been as active in the transfer market as Duke or ND?

Chris Gray but net lost more it seems as fifth years bounce.

I loved Chris Gray in high school. Stuck with his BU commitment despite big schools coming after him late.

If only Ben Reeves had done the same…

[MDlaxfan76]

Don’t think only having 1 title is that much of an indictment; winning the title is hard. But 2 F4’s in 13 years in comparison to their rivals doesn’t measure up.

Since 2009, Duke has 9 F4’s. Maryland has 8. Notre Dame has 5. Denver has 5. Virginia has 5. Cuse fired Desko for 2 F4’s in that time frame, same with Petro at Hopkins. Obviously he’s achieved much more than Haus, but that was a low bar and the level of recruit he’s brought in is as high as anyone.

I dunno.
Other than UVA, any other school have as many pretty girls to be distracted by?

Seriously, UNC is a terrific school, and has attracted a lot of excellent players over the years, for sure. But I really do think that the way ratings out of HS are created created a misimpression about how talented those classes are.

I'm biased, but if you don't have an All-American goalie and/or an All-American FOGO, as well as a really good team throughout, it's more a matter of luck at making a F4. Add one or both of those and chances go up significantly.

They did have RG Keenan and Bones Kelly over that period...but...

Maryland’s had an AA FOGO for…one of their F4’s? Duke hasn’t had good goalie play before Adler in years. They won a title in 2014 with like 47% goalie play.

Even if the argument is UNC’s classes aren’t as good as their rankings…are we saying they’re still any worse or significantly worse than MD’s or Duke’s or UVA’s or Denver’s? Or ND’s? If the players they’re recruiting aren’t as good, then they’re not recruiting as well and there’s no reason UNC shouldn’t recruit as well as those schools. If they are but not getting the same results; then they’re not developing as well as them. Either way, there’s something that’s stopping them from achieving nearly the same level of results as their peer schools and it’s not the resources or the school or anything like that cause UNC has all that in spades

Are you a UNC alum?

I'm not, so I find it a bit unseemly to be critical of a program on their thread.

If UNC alums/fans want to come on here and clamor for a coaching regime change, I'm ok with that. Not seemly for fans of other programs to do so...but that's my POV.

My own sense is they run a pretty darn good, clean program that many schools would give their eye-teeth to have.

I was, however, critical of the leading participation in ER, not specific to the program but rather that I felt it was awful for the youth. I was bit sharper in my critique of the relative lions of the game who participated in the vanguard of that ever earlier progression than I was Breschi, because I felt they had the gravitas to drive rule changes. We had to wait for the women's side to finally get that done! But Breschi was indeed one of those pushing hardest ever earlier.

Whatever the reason for the minute differences between a Top 10 expected contender and one which breaks through to multiple F4's and championship wins, I'd just say that they perennially have a really tough teams to beat. In 2016 they "over performed" and in other years we could say they did not.

dude.......what gives......if you can't see the mixed messaging in this rant, seek help. All the blue words are yours. All of them. you just criticized coach Breschi, for ER on the UNC thread. Which you just told us was "unseemly" behavior. Place just is weirdo land.......

Reading comprehension, RRR.

I'm not your enemy. You don't need to follow me wherever I post.

[runrussellrun]

Don’t think only having 1 title is that much of an indictment; winning the title is hard. But 2 F4’s in 13 years in comparison to their rivals doesn’t measure up.

Since 2009, Duke has 9 F4’s. Maryland has 8. Notre Dame has 5. Denver has 5. Virginia has 5. Cuse fired Desko for 2 F4’s in that time frame, same with Petro at Hopkins. Obviously he’s achieved much more than Haus, but that was a low bar and the level of recruit he’s brought in is as high as anyone.

I dunno.
Other than UVA, any other school have as many pretty girls to be distracted by?

Seriously, UNC is a terrific school, and has attracted a lot of excellent players over the years, for sure. But I really do think that the way ratings out of HS are created created a misimpression about how talented those classes are.

I'm biased, but if you don't have an All-American goalie and/or an All-American FOGO, as well as a really good team throughout, it's more a matter of luck at making a F4. Add one or both of those and chances go up significantly.

They did have RG Keenan and Bones Kelly over that period...but...

Maryland’s had an AA FOGO for…one of their F4’s? Duke hasn’t had good goalie play before Adler in years. They won a title in 2014 with like 47% goalie play.

Even if the argument is UNC’s classes aren’t as good as their rankings…are we saying they’re still any worse or significantly worse than MD’s or Duke’s or UVA’s or Denver’s? Or ND’s? If the players they’re recruiting aren’t as good, then they’re not recruiting as well and there’s no reason UNC shouldn’t recruit as well as those schools. If they are but not getting the same results; then they’re not developing as well as them. Either way, there’s something that’s stopping them from achieving nearly the same level of results as their peer schools and it’s not the resources or the school or anything like that cause UNC has all that in spades

Are you a UNC alum?

I'm not, so I find it a bit unseemly to be critical of a program on their thread.

If UNC alums/fans want to come on here and clamor for a coaching regime change, I'm ok with that. Not seemly for fans of other programs to do so...but that's my POV.

My own sense is they run a pretty darn good, clean program that many schools would give their eye-teeth to have.

I was, however, critical of the leading participation in ER, not specific to the program but rather that I felt it was awful for the youth. I was bit sharper in my critique of the relative lions of the game who participated in the vanguard of that ever earlier progression than I was Breschi, because I felt they had the gravitas to drive rule changes. We had to wait for the women's side to finally get that done! But Breschi was indeed one of those pushing hardest ever earlier.

Whatever the reason for the minute differences between a Top 10 expected contender and one which breaks through to multiple F4's and championship wins, I'd just say that they perennially have a really tough teams to beat. In 2016 they "over performed" and in other years we could say they did not.

dude.......what gives......if you can't see the mixed messaging in this rant, seek help. All the blue words are yours. All of them. you just criticized coach Breschi, for ER on the UNC thread. Which you just told us was "unseemly" behavior. Place just is weirdo land.......

Reading comprehension, RRR.

I'm not your enemy. You don't need to follow me wherever I post.

Specifically read this thread b/c YOU aren't on it.......but, sometime you both gotta pee at the same time. Stay weird......

[MDlaxfan76]

Don’t think only having 1 title is that much of an indictment; winning the title is hard. But 2 F4’s in 13 years in comparison to their rivals doesn’t measure up.

Since 2009, Duke has 9 F4’s. Maryland has 8. Notre Dame has 5. Denver has 5. Virginia has 5. Cuse fired Desko for 2 F4’s in that time frame, same with Petro at Hopkins. Obviously he’s achieved much more than Haus, but that was a low bar and the level of recruit he’s brought in is as high as anyone.

I dunno.
Other than UVA, any other school have as many pretty girls to be distracted by?

Seriously, UNC is a terrific school, and has attracted a lot of excellent players over the years, for sure. But I really do think that the way ratings out of HS are created created a misimpression about how talented those classes are.

I'm biased, but if you don't have an All-American goalie and/or an All-American FOGO, as well as a really good team throughout, it's more a matter of luck at making a F4. Add one or both of those and chances go up significantly.

They did have RG Keenan and Bones Kelly over that period...but...

Maryland’s had an AA FOGO for…one of their F4’s? Duke hasn’t had good goalie play before Adler in years. They won a title in 2014 with like 47% goalie play.

Even if the argument is UNC’s classes aren’t as good as their rankings…are we saying they’re still any worse or significantly worse than MD’s or Duke’s or UVA’s or Denver’s? Or ND’s? If the players they’re recruiting aren’t as good, then they’re not recruiting as well and there’s no reason UNC shouldn’t recruit as well as those schools. If they are but not getting the same results; then they’re not developing as well as them. Either way, there’s something that’s stopping them from achieving nearly the same level of results as their peer schools and it’s not the resources or the school or anything like that cause UNC has all that in spades

Are you a UNC alum?

I'm not, so I find it a bit unseemly to be critical of a program on their thread.

If UNC alums/fans want to come on here and clamor for a coaching regime change, I'm ok with that. Not seemly for fans of other programs to do so...but that's my POV.

My own sense is they run a pretty darn good, clean program that many schools would give their eye-teeth to have.

I was, however, critical of the leading participation in ER, not specific to the program but rather that I felt it was awful for the youth. I was bit sharper in my critique of the relative lions of the game who participated in the vanguard of that ever earlier progression than I was Breschi, because I felt they had the gravitas to drive rule changes. We had to wait for the women's side to finally get that done! But Breschi was indeed one of those pushing hardest ever earlier.

Whatever the reason for the minute differences between a Top 10 expected contender and one which breaks through to multiple F4's and championship wins, I'd just say that they perennially have a really tough teams to beat. In 2016 they "over performed" and in other years we could say they did not.

No, but it’s an Internet message board and everyone here is discussing UNC’s performance, so I thought I’d chime in. I also don’t think anything I’ve said is particularly critical. The results are what they are. They aren’t a perennial F4 program in a conference/with common opponents who are perennial F4 programs.

Sorry, I was really intending this more broadly than just you. It's my personal POV that these school-specific threads are where the alums, parents of players, etc go to see news about their program.

For clarity, my critiques of Breschi re ER had always been on the ER thread on LP dealing with such, not on a UNC thread. It's simply a fact that he was a leading participant. To the extent that made selections more difficult in that era, that would be the only context relevant to this particular discussion...but I think the whole discussion would be better on a non school specific thread in which such was discussed about all schools.

That is, unless UNC alums/fans want to discuss it here.

[Matnum PI]

No, but it’s an Internet message board and everyone here is discussing UNC’s performance, so I thought I’d chime in. I also don’t think anything I’ve said is particularly critical. The results are what they are. They aren’t a perennial F4 program in a conference/with common opponents who are perennial F4 programs.

Agreed. Personally, I'm as curious what separates MD's and UVA's success from UNC's relatively dampened success as I am about successes between Nike and Under Armour or... any similar entities within a competitive environment. I find it interesting. With that said, I think often, and have for years, for decades, about why MD, UVA, and Duke shine while others shine less so. Though I can't prove this, whether you're looking at US car manufacturers or D1 Men's lacrosse, corporate culture plays no small role...

[runrussellrun]

No, but it’s an Internet message board and everyone here is discussing UNC’s performance, so I thought I’d chime in. I also don’t think anything I’ve said is particularly critical. The results are what they are. They aren’t a perennial F4 program in a conference/with common opponents who are perennial F4 programs.

Agreed. Personally, I'm as curious what separates MD's and UVA's success from UNC's relatively dampened success as I am about successes between Nike and Under Armour or... any similar entities within a competitive environment. I find it interesting. With that said, I think often, and have for years, for decades, about why MD, UVA, and Duke shine while others shine less so. Though I can't prove this, whether you're looking at US car manufacturers or D1 Men's lacrosse, corporate culture plays no small role...

Umm...you call almost 50 years between championships.....shining? but we know what you mean.

Maryland had it's own issues, and kudo's to Tillman for figuring out he, or his decisions, were part of the problem.

How many of those 6 loses, or was it 7, during UNC's 2016 championship run season, were to tournament teams ? exactly

One of the two CAA teams that womped on the tar heels shoulda gotten their bid.....but alas......the RPI/SOS ghouls.......

[wgdsr]

Don’t think only having 1 title is that much of an indictment; winning the title is hard. But 2 F4’s in 13 years in comparison to their rivals doesn’t measure up.

Since 2009, Duke has 9 F4’s. Maryland has 8. Notre Dame has 5. Denver has 5. Virginia has 5. Cuse fired Desko for 2 F4’s in that time frame, same with Petro at Hopkins. Obviously he’s achieved much more than Haus, but that was a low bar and the level of recruit he’s brought in is as high as anyone.

I dunno.
Other than UVA, any other school have as many pretty girls to be distracted by?

Seriously, UNC is a terrific school, and has attracted a lot of excellent players over the years, for sure. But I really do think that the way ratings out of HS are created created a misimpression about how talented those classes are.

I'm biased, but if you don't have an All-American goalie and/or an All-American FOGO, as well as a really good team throughout, it's more a matter of luck at making a F4. Add one or both of those and chances go up significantly.

They did have RG Keenan and Bones Kelly over that period...but...

Maryland’s had an AA FOGO for…one of their F4’s? Duke hasn’t had good goalie play before Adler in years. They won a title in 2014 with like 47% goalie play.

Even if the argument is UNC’s classes aren’t as good as their rankings…are we saying they’re still any worse or significantly worse than MD’s or Duke’s or UVA’s or Denver’s? Or ND’s? If the players they’re recruiting aren’t as good, then they’re not recruiting as well and there’s no reason UNC shouldn’t recruit as well as those schools. If they are but not getting the same results; then they’re not developing as well as them. Either way, there’s something that’s stopping them from achieving nearly the same level of results as their peer schools and it’s not the resources or the school or anything like that cause UNC has all that in spades

Are you a UNC alum?

I'm not, so I find it a bit unseemly to be critical of a program on their thread.

If UNC alums/fans want to come on here and clamor for a coaching regime change, I'm ok with that. Not seemly for fans of other programs to do so...but that's my POV.

My own sense is they run a pretty darn good, clean program that many schools would give their eye-teeth to have.

I was, however, critical of the leading participation in ER, not specific to the program but rather that I felt it was awful for the youth. I was bit sharper in my critique of the relative lions of the game who participated in the vanguard of that ever earlier progression than I was Breschi, because I felt they had the gravitas to drive rule changes. We had to wait for the women's side to finally get that done! But Breschi was indeed one of those pushing hardest ever earlier.

Whatever the reason for the minute differences between a Top 10 expected contender and one which breaks through to multiple F4's and championship wins, I'd just say that they perennially have a really tough teams to beat. In 2016 they "over performed" and in other years we could say they did not.

No, but it’s an Internet message board and everyone here is discussing UNC’s performance, so I thought I’d chime in. I also don’t think anything I’ve said is particularly critical. The results are what they are. They aren’t a perennial F4 program in a conference/with common opponents who are perennial F4 programs.

those perennial f4 programs save umd have largely disappeared since duke's last champ if we pick a more recent date. so, it's showing breschi's improved performance?
in 6 full years, we have:
duke: 3 ff's, one a tight final, one choke job semi and one blowout semi, all in the last 3 years after being absent for 3.
uva: 2 final 4s including taking it all both times after years of missing ff.
nd: 1 final 4 back in 2015, tight champ loss. not seen since.
syr: witness protection program.
unc: 2 ffs, 1 championship & a tight semi loss last year.

doesn't really seem out of line. i'd take it 2nd. years prior weren't as good, they're getting better? what have you done for me lately used to be a thing.

[Matnum PI]

A while back, I created a spreadsheet which looks at the end-of-season rankings of every relevant D1M team since 2005 with a weighting of 100% for the most recent season (2021), 90% for the previous season (2019), 80% for 2018... 10% for 2011 and every year before 2011. In the name of full disclosure, I didn't love the rankings for most of these years (which is why I created my own ranking system which replaced the old ranking system in the more recent years and will continue to do the same going forward) but even for the rankings I didn't love, they were off but not so off. The results of this experiment is (below) and I took it upon myself to bold some of the teams we're discussing within this thread, including UNC.

1 umd
2 duke
3 nd
4 syr
5 denver
6 loyola
7 uva
8 yale
9 unc
10 jhu
11 cornell
12 tows
13 albany
14 osu
15 psu
16 upenn
17 pton
18 villanova
19 gtown
20 army
21 brown
22 navy
23 umass
24 rutgers
25 lehigh