All Things Russia & Ukraine

[old salt]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... risis.html

From someone who lived in Russia during a pivotal time. All of this could have been avoided if a hand was extended rather than pushing the expansion of NATO to "contain" Russia. Too much invested in the "war machine" to accept a real peace dividend. I was around when we had air raid drills in elementary school, of which mine had a fallout shelter. I didn't comprehend until later what that meant, but it has informed my thinking on armed conflict ever since.

That is a brilliant article, by Christopher Hitchens younger conservative brother.
Probably what Chris would have been saying, were he still with us.
It all goes back to 1991.

[seacoaster]

Now we know Putin wasn't bluffing. Biden and his people need to tread very very lightly... do not escalate this mess.

It's going to be hard not to escalate and still be effective. As you know, we are dealing with the invasion of a sovereign nation, under circumstances that are almost entirely cooked up by Putin. So:

Support Ukraine with war materiale, immediately, everything but soldiers in theatre. All systems, weapons, intel, counter-cyber, etc.

Bankrupt Putin's war machine. We have to freeze and seize Russian finances, including in particular those controlled by Putin and the oligarchs who support him;

Remove Russia from, or isolate it from, every international organization and financial institution.

Recall all embassy personnel and ambassadors from Russia. There is no point in talking. The unified message has to cease fire, remove your troops and materiale, or be isolated from the world community.

Remove and counter Russian propaganda. Actually shut down Russian media in the West.

Boycott -- as advertisers and viewers -- American outlets and political actors that support Putin.

Work with other nations, including OPEC countries, to cease purchases of Russian oil and gas. Induce American and Middle Eastern producers to increase production. Do not allow Putin the benefit of rising oil prices that his war ensured.

I am sure there are more. We are not toothless, even without the commitment of human assets.

Oh, and move the UEFA Champions League Final out of St. Petersburg.

[Typical Lax Dad]

As has happened so many times before in European history, an aggressor’s bombs and tanks are wreaking horror and havoc on a weaker neighbor. This time, the victim is Ukraine, a member state of the United Nations inhabited by 44 million people; the perpetrator is Russia, whose repressive ruler, President Vladimir Putin, insists — contrary to black-letter international law — that Ukraine has no sovereign rights he is bound to respect. Once again, civilized life in this strategically vital continent is being overwhelmed by blood and fire. The conflict may be contained — for the moment — in Europe’s eastern reaches. But it threatens to spread. And once again, the United States is called upon to respond.

Many Americans may wish, instinctively and understandably, not to get involved in a European war, even indirectly, by levying sanctions on the aggressor, Russia. Such measures could trigger disruptions in energy and financial markets, creating costs for the United States, when we already suffer from problems, ranging from a pandemic to inflation to racial injustice. Certainly this country, its service members — and their families — paid a high price, financial and human, in, and for, Middle Eastern wars that ended without clear victory.

And yet, President Biden is right to answer Mr. Putin robustly, even at some risk to the United States and allied nations, which are also isolating Russia economically and diplomatically. The United States has no mutual defense treaty with Ukraine and, thus, no legal or prudential obligation to protect it with U.S. forces. What we do have is a stake in the peace and stability of Europe, a continent of 740 million people with whom Americans share a long-standing commitment to democracy, innumerable familial ties and more than $1 trillion in annual commerce, upon which millions of jobs depend.

To prevent the continent from falling under the sway of a hostile hegemon — as it almost did in 1914, 1939 and during the Cold War — has been a vital U.S. interest for decades. This is the vital interest for which the United States invested in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and other institutions. And it is precisely that vital interest that unchecked Russian aggression would sooner or later undermine, with far higher and more lasting costs to Americans than any that we might sustain from the sanctions and other measures Mr. Biden is contemplating now.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... ed-states/

DocBarrister

Putin is well within his rights….as Old Skipper.

[NattyBohChamps04]

Putin is going to threaten Europe with Chernobyl containment structure breach. Europe will fold like a cheap suit. He just said grave consequences, not what they would be. People assumed he meant using nuclear weapons. Now he has Chernobyl, he has one. "Be a shame if anything happened to your nice, Western funded and built Chernobyl containment vessel."

I have to say the West sncks at chess...

It's more that it's the shortest route to Kyiv, plus they can use it as cover. Putin would be exposing a good chunk of Russia if something happened there.

[PizzaSnake]

Finland -

https://www.reuters.com/business/finlan ... 022-02-24/

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/fi ... uxbndlbing

But not Gerhard Schroeder...

[old salt]

It seems, we will see if true, that NATO has been reinvigorated.

Let's see how many EU forces join the US in fortifying NATO's E flank.

[jhu72]

Putin is going to threaten Europe with Chernobyl containment structure breach. Europe will fold like a cheap suit. He just said grave consequences, not what they would be. People assumed he meant using nuclear weapons. Now he has Chernobyl, he has one. "Be a shame if anything happened to your nice, Western funded and built Chernobyl containment vessel."

I have to say the West sncks at chess...

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wi ... t-83085066

... that would be the dumbest thing he could do.

[PizzaSnake]

Putin is going to threaten Europe with Chernobyl containment structure breach. Europe will fold like a cheap suit. He just said grave consequences, not what they would be. People assumed he meant using nuclear weapons. Now he has Chernobyl, he has one. "Be a shame if anything happened to your nice, Western funded and built Chernobyl containment vessel."

I have to say the West sncks at chess...

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wi ... t-83085066

... that would be the dumbest thing he could do.

Threatening, or actually compromising? And when did "dumb" come into the discussion? Who cares what we think about his intelligence? We need to concern ourselves with his actions, not our opinion of him.

[a fan]

immediately open the economy full bore and abolish any Covid mandates

Everything has been open on a Federal level for over a year.

5fire anybody in the pentagon who kicked out unvaccinated warriors

So that in the future our enemies can take our soldiers with, let's see....anthrax, chickenpox, hepatitis, rabies, etc., or even just the flu?

You want our boys in a weakened state? Why?

6) hold rally’s to restore the country’s self esteem and confidence

Can't do that. If a R is in office, the Dem voters think the world is falling apart. If D is in office, the R voters think the world is falling apart. Seems you're doing the same.....can't fix this.

7) Blame China in no uncertain terms for infecting the world with Covid and never drop it.

So start a Cold War with China? You have a plan as to how to keep the computer you're using functioning?

immediately force Europe to pay its entire NATO dues

cut all government spending 10 percent across the board outside of military spending. Don’t fire anybody just cut all pay 10 percent and no inflation adjustments.

Why exempt the military? Everyone else can take a haircut, so can they.

Start with Medicare and SS. Where do I sign for that?

start the ball rolling on Europe getting energy from North America.

Nuclear. That's the way forward.

[jhu72]

The Myth of Vladimir Putin.

[old salt]

Why does it feel like everything ramped up recently on the kneeled for Trump crowd as if this is one of the myriad of small social assaults led by Russian teenagers paid by the kremlin?

... undoubtedly there is some of that going on.

Not here. You can see the dates your suspects joined this forum.
It's not worth the Russians time to mess with this tiny slice of a demo that's already irrevocably biased.

[jhu72]

Putin is going to threaten Europe with Chernobyl containment structure breach. Europe will fold like a cheap suit. He just said grave consequences, not what they would be. People assumed he meant using nuclear weapons. Now he has Chernobyl, he has one. "Be a shame if anything happened to your nice, Western funded and built Chernobyl containment vessel."

I have to say the West sncks at chess...

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wi ... t-83085066

... that would be the dumbest thing he could do.

Threatening, or actually compromising? And when did "dumb" come into the discussion? Who cares what we think about his intelligence? We need to concern ourselves with his actions, not our opinion of him.

... it will strengthen the alliance against him if he actually did it. That would be dumb. Threatening will be seen as just that.

[NattyBohChamps04]

Why does it feel like everything ramped up recently on the kneeled for Trump crowd as if this is one of the myriad of small social assaults led by Russian teenagers paid by the kremlin?

... undoubtedly there is some of that going on.

Not here. You can see the dates your suspects joined this forum.
It's not worth the Russians time to mess with this tiny slice of a demo that's already irrevocably biased.

They may have signed up in the past, but I 100% guarantee they're seeing a huge influx of Russian propaganda in their news feeds if they're on any social media. They'll then echo that stuff anywhere they post, like around here.

[jhu72]

Finland -

https://www.reuters.com/business/finlan ... 022-02-24/

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/fi ... uxbndlbing

But not Gerhard Schroeder...

... Schroeder is looking after himself - doesn't speak for Germany.

[a fan]

The Myth of Vladimir Putin.

The economic price arrived immediately. Best of luck to Putin. Tried to tell folks....they think Putin is a genius.

I asked this the last time this stupidity was discussed a few years ago: why doesn't the US invade Mexico? Like Putin, we can do it. So why don't we?

Here's your answer..........


Russia’s stock markets plunged at the start of a delayed trading session Thursday after Russia launched military action in Ukraine.

The benchmark MOEX index of leading Russian shares fell by more than 40% in morning trading according to data on the exchange’s website. The crash came as Western governments promised unprecedented sanctions in response to President Vlaidmir Putin’s shock announcement that Russia had launched military action against Ukraine.


And the thing no one is talking about, is that Ukraine has the worst economy in the entire region. And that was BEFORE the invasion.

Any of you going to do biz, or buy things from Russia or Ukraine in the coming year? Send in your money, and hope the good or service arrives?

This is why you don't do this stuff, folks. And the sanctions haven't dropped yet.





https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/02/ ... ort-a76554

[NattyBohChamps04]

Lots of cell footage popping up of Russians shooting at civilians. Horrifying

[jhu72]

Why does it feel like everything ramped up recently on the kneeled for Trump crowd as if this is one of the myriad of small social assaults led by Russian teenagers paid by the kremlin?

... undoubtedly there is some of that going on.

Not here. You can see the dates your suspects joined this forum.
It's not worth the Russians time to mess with this tiny slice of a demo that's already irrevocably biased.

They may have signed up in the past, but I 100% guarantee they're seeing a huge influx of Russian propaganda in their news feeds if they're on any social media. They'll then echo that stuff anywhere they post, like around here.

... you beat me to the explanation. I doubt any Russian teens are on the site, it is not so much these guys are Russian, but it is clear they are reading / listening to Russian propaganda and repeating it HERE.

[PizzaSnake]

The Myth of Vladimir Putin.

The economic price arrived immediately. Best of luck to Putin. Tried to tell folks....they think Putin is a genius.

I asked this the last time this stupidity was discussed a few years ago: why doesn't the US invade Mexico? Like Putin, we can do it. So why don't we?

Here's your answer..........


Russia’s stock markets plunged at the start of a delayed trading session Thursday after Russia launched military action in Ukraine.

The benchmark MOEX index of leading Russian shares fell by more than 40% in morning trading according to data on the exchange’s website. The crash came as Western governments promised unprecedented sanctions in response to President Vlaidmir Putin’s shock announcement that Russia had launched military action against Ukraine.


And the thing no one is talking about, is that Ukraine has the worst economy in the entire region. And that was BEFORE the invasion.

Any of you going to do biz, or buy things from Russia or Ukraine in the coming year? Send in your money, and hope the good or service arrives?

This is why you don't do this stuff, folks. And the sanctions haven't dropped yet.





https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/02/ ... ort-a76554

Chernobyl blackmail. Poisoning is a Russian thing.

[jhu72]

CNN reporting the Russian forces around Kyiv are airborne.

[old salt]

Putin is well within his rights….as Old Skipper.

You have no idea of what you speak. Troll.