All Things Russia & Ukraine

[MDlaxfan76]

nope, he went further back...you aren't, but he is. And does it matter what year Russia committed to assurances that various independent states would be sovereign and be permanently recognized as such?

I read the entire transcript of his speech yesterday & his entire op-ed of July 21.
Lengthy, detailed, slow going. Lots of historical context, but no specific territorial aspirations stated or implied.
His most specific grievances are with the 1991 dissolution of the USSR & NATO expansion.
What do you predict that he will try beyond controlling Ukraine & uniting with Belarus ?

And what do you think China's aspirations are beyond Hong Kong and Taiwan?

In terms of territory -- the disputed islands in the S & E China seas, expanding the new island military bases they've dredged, declaring the S China Sea shipping lanes within their territorial waters & exercising control over those critical sea lanes.

Beyond that -- coercive global economic imperialism.

I agree.

We may disagree on how to combat that path, but we agree that this is the fundamental gameplan or at least possible path. But it's also important to understand that they believe that all of those cultures surrounding them that have the same roots are ultimately to be squeezed and subsumed into the China unity.

And this is why we really need to be successful in demonstrating that Putin will be unsuccessful in his ambitions.

China is going to be harder, so we sure as heck can't let the weaker foe prevail, demonstrating our incapacity to stop them.

[DocBarrister]

If nothing else, Donald Trump has clearly shown that he is a traitor and Putin’s puppet.

Former President Donald Trump praised Putin's aggressive moves against Ukraine as "genius" and "very savvy" in a podcast interview Tuesday.

"I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said, 'This is genius.' Putin declares a big portion of the Ukraine — of Ukraine — Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that’s wonderful," Trump told conservative podcaster Buck Sexton.

"I said, 'How smart is that?' And he’s gonna go in and be a peacekeeper. That’s strongest peace force... We could use that on our southern border. That’s the strongest peace force I’ve ever seen. There were more army tanks than I’ve ever seen. They’re gonna keep peace all right," Trump continued. "Here’s a guy who’s very savvy... I know him very well. Very, very well."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live ... BlogHeader

DocBarrister

"traitor" "puppet"


Kindly explain.

Was Putin Bush's puppet when he stood by and did nothing about the criminal invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq? Bush killed thousands of Americans and murdered over one million people in the Middle East while stealing trillions of US dollars. Does that make American right wingers who supported him traitors and puppets as well?

Is Putin being "savvy" by having troops at the border? Well, it does save Russians inside of Donetsk and Lubansk from getting slaughtered by the Ukrainians. If it had been me, I would have allowed the people to take a plebiscite. If they chose to become a part of Russia, then, fine. Bring them on. This would have promoted diplomacy, self determination, and order.

War isn't necessary. But nobody should try to deny the people of Donbas the right of self determination. Let them decide what their fate is or should be.

As for us, stay the hell out of there. No more involvement with NATO. No sanctions. We have enough problems here at home. Let's solve them, now. Not later.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

DocBarrister

[cradleandshoot]

I think Nordstream is officially dead, won't be resurrected absent a total withdrawal by Putin, and I'm not holding my breath on that one. Remember, Germany never had a choice once we made clear that we'd sanction any bank that did business with anyone moving that gas through that pipeline. Glad to see them move fast, but they really had no choice. Might well have been coordinated.

You may be over-estimating the fortitude of Germany (& Wall Street) to absorb the consequences.
When the shooting stops, the Germans will be anxious to negotiate a settlement.

The question is the US' resolve, not the Germans.

You're correct, IMO, to wonder about our resolve.

REUTERS—ICIS analysis data for German supply showed that in Dec. 2021 Russian pipeline gas accounted for 32%

Not refuted yet
What will Germanys resolve be when they're cold and in the dark in a couple weeks.

I guess that, like most topics, you haven't really been paying attention, whether to news beyond your right wing feed or even to the discussions on here.

Russia might well cut off all gas to Germany, but that'll hurt them much worse than Germany or Germans as other sources will be rushed to Germany. But it will hurt.

But the point isn't that there's going to be a big crunch on energy costs, it's that this is entirely controlled by the US, not Germany as they really have no choice, given the sanctions that have been discussed. No business or bank will be able to do business with any entities proscribed by the US. Period.

We did this in tightening the screws on banks doing business with Iran and choked them hard as a result, which was the predicate to getting them to the table for the deal. Banks initially had trouble knowing what was actually happening, but they built up the mechanisms to track everything...beats billion dollar fines else cut off entirely from markets. Those mechanisms now exist and the US has been clear that they're willing to use the same process to enforce compliance.

So, if we want to constrict all oil and gas sales out of Russia, that's in our control. It'll be a later step, we haven't gone there yet.

But we're rolling these out on two Russian banks, and the Russian access to raising capital on the international markets. They're going to shortly roll out such on various Russian elites. It's important to realize that the Russian elites work very hard to get most of their riches outside of Russia's direct reach, just in case their positions deteriorate there...they need that access.

But that's a minimum step.

Reading comprehension there MD.. when was the last time you read anything from 6 foot? He told you from the get go he stopped reading this forum. When he came back to visit he read the same old same old same old from the same people. You choose to give him your standard faux Republican blather. Way to go there hero. I would love to have 6 foot start posting again. Why would he want to? The only thing he will read is the same old same old same old same old. Maybe he would be mocked and ridiculed by your FLP friends on this forum. When I think of a person who is actually a lifelong Republican.. Mr 6 foot comes to mind in my book.

I don't remember how old 6ft is, but he'd have to pretty old to have voted for more Republicans for national office than me.

But are you actually trying to add something substantive discourse or do you just want to attack me personally?

Salty and I have been having a respectful discussion. I find his thoughts interesting in this arena. I don't agree with every aspect, but I know he's thought about the topic a ton. Substantive.

You're free to add something substantive, but how about dropping the ad hominem stuff?

I wish I read more 6 foot and less of the Fanlax faux Republican. I'm sorry I interrupted your respectful conversation with Old Salt. Carry on with your faux Republican gibberish. If I'm lucky Mr 6 foot will come back to give another perspective from a lifelong Republican. I hope your golf game comes around...

[MDlaxfan76]

I think Nordstream is officially dead, won't be resurrected absent a total withdrawal by Putin, and I'm not holding my breath on that one. Remember, Germany never had a choice once we made clear that we'd sanction any bank that did business with anyone moving that gas through that pipeline. Glad to see them move fast, but they really had no choice. Might well have been coordinated.

You may be over-estimating the fortitude of Germany (& Wall Street) to absorb the consequences.
When the shooting stops, the Germans will be anxious to negotiate a settlement.

The question is the US' resolve, not the Germans.

You're correct, IMO, to wonder about our resolve.

REUTERS—ICIS analysis data for German supply showed that in Dec. 2021 Russian pipeline gas accounted for 32%

Not refuted yet
What will Germanys resolve be when they're cold and in the dark in a couple weeks.

I guess that, like most topics, you haven't really been paying attention, whether to news beyond your right wing feed or even to the discussions on here.

Russia might well cut off all gas to Germany, but that'll hurt them much worse than Germany or Germans as other sources will be rushed to Germany. But it will hurt.

But the point isn't that there's going to be a big crunch on energy costs, it's that this is entirely controlled by the US, not Germany as they really have no choice, given the sanctions that have been discussed. No business or bank will be able to do business with any entities proscribed by the US. Period.

We did this in tightening the screws on banks doing business with Iran and choked them hard as a result, which was the predicate to getting them to the table for the deal. Banks initially had trouble knowing what was actually happening, but they built up the mechanisms to track everything...beats billion dollar fines else cut off entirely from markets. Those mechanisms now exist and the US has been clear that they're willing to use the same process to enforce compliance.

So, if we want to constrict all oil and gas sales out of Russia, that's in our control. It'll be a later step, we haven't gone there yet.

But we're rolling these out on two Russian banks, and the Russian access to raising capital on the international markets. They're going to shortly roll out such on various Russian elites. It's important to realize that the Russian elites work very hard to get most of their riches outside of Russia's direct reach, just in case their positions deteriorate there...they need that access.

But that's a minimum step.

Reading comprehension there MD.. when was the last time you read anything from 6 foot? He told you from the get go he stopped reading this forum. When he came back to visit he read the same old same old same old from the same people. You choose to give him your standard faux Republican blather. Way to go there hero. I would love to have 6 foot start posting again. Why would he want to? The only thing he will read is the same old same old same old same old. Maybe he would be mocked and ridiculed by your FLP friends on this forum. When I think of a person who is actually a lifelong Republican.. Mr 6 foot comes to mind in my book.

I don't remember how old 6ft is, but he'd have to pretty old to have voted for more Republicans for national office than me.

But are you actually trying to add something substantive discourse or do you just want to attack me personally?

Salty and I have been having a respectful discussion. I find his thoughts interesting in this arena. I don't agree with every aspect, but I know he's thought about the topic a ton. Substantive.

You're free to add something substantive, but how about dropping the ad hominem stuff?

I wish I read more 6 foot and less of the Fanlax faux Republican. I'm sorry I interrupted your respectful conversation with Old Salt. Carry on with your faux Republican gibberish. If I'm lucky Mr 6 foot will come back to give another perspective from a lifelong Republican. I hope your golf game comes around...

Yup, nothing substantive.

BTW, I'm here in cold Baltimore, no golf these two weeks...taking care of my sisters' dogs though.

[seacoaster]

What does #QFP mean?

Quoted For Posterity -- this qoute will likely be revisited, ...again, & again, & ....

Thanks; yes, it's one of his most disgraceful. Like House Republicans today:

https://twitter.com/HouseGOP/status/1496206645919105031

When exactly did your team decide that it didn't like democracy?

[old salt]

nope, he went further back...you aren't, but he is. And does it matter what year Russia committed to assurances that various independent states would be sovereign and be permanently recognized as such?

I read the entire transcript of his speech yesterday & his entire op-ed of July 21.
Lengthy, detailed, slow going. Lots of historical context, but no specific territorial aspirations stated or implied.
His most specific grievances are with the 1991 dissolution of the USSR & NATO expansion.
What do you predict that he will try beyond controlling Ukraine & uniting with Belarus ?

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/67828

I read that quite differently from your summary.

Lots of historical discourse, justifying the reclaiming of what was "historically Russia" which he is very broad in describing.

He differentiates this "historically Russia" from specifically during the Soviet Union, blames the Bolsheviks, Lenin, Stalin, all making "mistakes" and then of course the "mistakes" in the dissolution of the Soviet Union.

But the claim, both explicit and implicit, is that Russia has a right to any and all of the territories that are "historically Russian", which is in reality anything he says it is. Including whatever the prior reach of the Russian Empire was, at a minimum. There's really no limit to what could be claimed under this ideology as it's entirely subject to Orwellian propaganda.

F the international order and rule of law.

All of that historical discourse is focused on the Ukraine -- to establish that the Ukraine is a part of the 'original" Russia.
It is not to lay a predicate to regain every bit of land that was ever a part of the Russian Empire.

[MDlaxfan76]

nope, he went further back...you aren't, but he is. And does it matter what year Russia committed to assurances that various independent states would be sovereign and be permanently recognized as such?

I read the entire transcript of his speech yesterday & his entire op-ed of July 21.
Lengthy, detailed, slow going. Lots of historical context, but no specific territorial aspirations stated or implied.
His most specific grievances are with the 1991 dissolution of the USSR & NATO expansion.
What do you predict that he will try beyond controlling Ukraine & uniting with Belarus ?

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/67828

I read that quite differently from your summary.

Lots of historical discourse, justifying the reclaiming of what was "historically Russia" which he is very broad in describing.

He differentiates this "historically Russia" from specifically during the Soviet Union, blames the Bolsheviks, Lenin, Stalin, all making "mistakes" and then of course the "mistakes" in the dissolution of the Soviet Union.

But the claim, both explicit and implicit, is that Russia has a right to any and all of the territories that are "historically Russian", which is in reality anything he says it is. Including whatever the prior reach of the Russian Empire was, at a minimum. There's really no limit to what could be claimed under this ideology as it's entirely subject to Orwellian propaganda.

F the international order and rule of law.

All of that historical discourse is focused on the Ukraine -- to establish that the Ukraine is a part of the 'original" Russia.
It is not to lay a predicate to regain every bit of land that was ever a part of the Russian Empire.

mmm, same predicate applies to whatever Putin says it applies to.

Belarus and Ukraine and Georgia certainly being the most important, but don't expect his appetite to end there.

Again, the repercussions beyond Eastern Europe may be even more important geopolitically, which isn't to downplay the Ukraine issue by itself.

[Farfromgeneva]

I think Nordstream is officially dead, won't be resurrected absent a total withdrawal by Putin, and I'm not holding my breath on that one. Remember, Germany never had a choice once we made clear that we'd sanction any bank that did business with anyone moving that gas through that pipeline. Glad to see them move fast, but they really had no choice. Might well have been coordinated.

You may be over-estimating the fortitude of Germany (& Wall Street) to absorb the consequences.
When the shooting stops, the Germans will be anxious to negotiate a settlement.

The question is the US' resolve, not the Germans.

You're correct, IMO, to wonder about our resolve.

REUTERS—ICIS analysis data for German supply showed that in Dec. 2021 Russian pipeline gas accounted for 32%

Not refuted yet
What will Germanys resolve be when they're cold and in the dark in a couple weeks.

I guess that, like most topics, you haven't really been paying attention, whether to news beyond your right wing feed or even to the discussions on here.

Russia might well cut off all gas to Germany, but that'll hurt them much worse than Germany or Germans as other sources will be rushed to Germany. But it will hurt.

But the point isn't that there's going to be a big crunch on energy costs, it's that this is entirely controlled by the US, not Germany as they really have no choice, given the sanctions that have been discussed. No business or bank will be able to do business with any entities proscribed by the US. Period.

We did this in tightening the screws on banks doing business with Iran and choked them hard as a result, which was the predicate to getting them to the table for the deal. Banks initially had trouble knowing what was actually happening, but they built up the mechanisms to track everything...beats billion dollar fines else cut off entirely from markets. Those mechanisms now exist and the US has been clear that they're willing to use the same process to enforce compliance.

So, if we want to constrict all oil and gas sales out of Russia, that's in our control. It'll be a later step, we haven't gone there yet.

But we're rolling these out on two Russian banks, and the Russian access to raising capital on the international markets. They're going to shortly roll out such on various Russian elites. It's important to realize that the Russian elites work very hard to get most of their riches outside of Russia's direct reach, just in case their positions deteriorate there...they need that access.

But that's a minimum step.

Reading comprehension there MD.. when was the last time you read anything from 6 foot? He told you from the get go he stopped reading this forum. When he came back to visit he read the same old same old same old from the same people. You choose to give him your standard faux Republican blather. Way to go there hero. I would love to have 6 foot start posting again. Why would he want to? The only thing he will read is the same old same old same old same old. Maybe he would be mocked and ridiculed by your FLP friends on this forum. When I think of a person who is actually a lifelong Republican.. Mr 6 foot comes to mind in my book.

Me too, I need some fodder to fire up the abortion joke machine again!

[old salt]

On China, culturally, I recommend what Prof M says about China's century of national humiliation @ 1:00:29

also -- his discussion about the legacy of Nazi & Soviet genocides in the Ukraine @ 1:10:00

[MDlaxfan76]

On China, culturally, I recommend what Prof M says about China's century of national humiliation @ 1:00:29

also -- his discussion about the legacy of Nazi & Soviet genocides in the Ukraine @ 1:10:00

I suspect that's an interesting link.
Need to add it though.

[old salt]

On China, culturally, I recommend what Prof M says about China's century of national humiliation @ 1:00:29

also -- his discussion about the legacy of Nazi & Soviet genocides in the Ukraine @ 1:10:00

I suspect that's an interesting link.
Need to add it though.

[MDlaxfan76]

well, there's that "Israel Lobby", but ok...will listen to this talk.

Mearsheimer's had a number of interesting views over the years.

I certainly agree with his distaste for nationalism and where it takes us and the world.

In general, my takeaway is that he's advocating that it's essential to understand the mythologies (not sure he used that word...more like "history told") of each nationalist narrative and how they therefore process what is happening now. I find that an eminently reasonable proposition.

I'll need to go back and listen to more, as I focused on what you suggested.

Dinner calls!

[old salt]

well, there's that "Israel Lobby", but ok...will listen to this talk.

Mearsheimer's had a number of interesting views over the years.

I certainly agree with his distaste for nationalism and where it takes us and the world.

In general, my takeaway is that he's advocating that it's essential to understand the mythologies (not sure he used that word...more like "history told") of each nationalist narrative and how they therefore process what is happening now. I find that an eminently reasonable proposition.

I'll need to go back and listen to more, as I focused on what you suggested.

Dinner calls!

I was not aware that he caused a controversy by calling out the Israel lobby.
Were you aware of that before or did you google him when I posted my link ?
Why not just acknowledge that there is an Israel lobby, just like there's a lobby for every other cause. It's not necessarily a bad thing.
He's got 2 strikes against him -- he's antisemitic because he mentioned the Israel lobby & he's a Russian agent because he questions the wisdom of NATO expansion.

[old salt]

What does #QFP mean?

Quoted For Posterity -- this qoute will likely be revisited, ...again, & again, & ....

Thanks; yes, it's one of his most disgraceful. Like House Republicans today:

https://twitter.com/HouseGOP/status/1496206645919105031

When exactly did your team decide that it didn't like democracy?

When the Deep State subverted it to sabotage the (R) candidate in 2016 & the ensuing Presidency.

[seacoaster]

What does #QFP mean?

Quoted For Posterity -- this qoute will likely be revisited, ...again, & again, & ....

Thanks; yes, it's one of his most disgraceful. Like House Republicans today:

https://twitter.com/HouseGOP/status/1496206645919105031

When exactly did your team decide that it didn't like democracy?

When the Deep State subverted it to sabotage the (R) candidate in 2016 & the ensuing Presidency.

Even assuming that preposterous notion was true, that’d be a good enough reason for you. Check. You always disappoint. Sorry my parents paid for your education and upkeep.

[Brooklyn]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

DocBarrister

Since you did not address my question with substantive matter I will assume you are conceding to its truth. And so the conversation is ended.

[Typical Lax Dad]

What does #QFP mean?

Quoted For Posterity -- this qoute will likely be revisited, ...again, & again, & ....

Thanks; yes, it's one of his most disgraceful. Like House Republicans today:

https://twitter.com/HouseGOP/status/1496206645919105031

When exactly did your team decide that it didn't like democracy?

After it longer “mattered”?

[MDlaxfan76]

well, there's that "Israel Lobby", but ok...will listen to this talk.

Mearsheimer's had a number of interesting views over the years.

I certainly agree with his distaste for nationalism and where it takes us and the world.

In general, my takeaway is that he's advocating that it's essential to understand the mythologies (not sure he used that word...more like "history told") of each nationalist narrative and how they therefore process what is happening now. I find that an eminently reasonable proposition.

I'll need to go back and listen to more, as I focused on what you suggested.

Dinner calls!

I was not aware that he caused a controversy by calling out the Israel lobby.
Were you aware of that before or did you google him when I posted my link ?
Why not just acknowledge that there is an Israel lobby, just like there's a lobby for every other cause. It's not necessarily a bad thing.
He's got 2 strikes against him -- he's antisemitic because he mentioned the Israel lobby & he's a Russian agent because he questions the wisdom of NATO expansion.

I'm fine with agreeing that there's an Israeli lobby...yes, I googled him to see his background, bona fides...wikipedia is easy and pretty thorough. And he does have various accusations that he's antisemitic for other reasons, but I'm not jumping there in this context...just thought it funny given our prior recent discussion and clarification, thus the wink. It was meant good naturedly.

I'm also not accepting that NATO shouldn't have expanded, encouraging various states to join in the various democracy and anti-corruption principles. His views on nationalism certainly resonate; you'll recall that you and I have disagreed on that pretty heatedly.

So... he has lots of interesting views and I appreciate the link. I'll try to learn more.

[Brooklyn]

I'm sure that forum right wingers are convinced that their "thoughts and prayers" are the ideal solution for the current situation in the Ukraine-Russian border. After all, both societies claim to be Christian, go to the same churches, pray to the same god, cherish the same icons, and read their Bible which tells them to turn the other cheek, to forgive and pray for their enemies, and to even go so far as to personally sacrifice themselves for everyone else. While neither society is particularly tolerant of Jews, they claim to worship and adhere to the teachings of Jesus Christ, that Great Jewish Liberal in the Great Beyond. This Prince of Peace is so venerated that some even claim Moscow was to be the New Jerusalem with Jesus claiming it as his new Home.

Putin says he is sending in 'peace keepers' and has gotten high praise from tRump who is so beloved by right wingers on this forum. Since their Republican hero can do no wrong and since he loves Putin so much, forum right wingers should be thrilled at all the news we've gotten from that border.

A thought occurred to me ~ for several years we have gotten an endless amount of praise for tRump from forum right wingers. Why haven't they praised him for his assessment of Putin?

Better to light one candle than to curse the darkness. I'm sure forum right wingers have that idea in mind as they render their thoughts and prayers.

[old salt]

What does #QFP mean?

Quoted For Posterity -- this qoute will likely be revisited, ...again, & again, & ....

Thanks; yes, it's one of his most disgraceful. Like House Republicans today:

https://twitter.com/HouseGOP/status/1496206645919105031

When exactly did your team decide that it didn't like democracy?

When the Deep State subverted it to sabotage the (R) candidate in 2016 & the ensuing Presidency.

Even assuming that preposterous notion was true, that’d be a good enough reason for you. Check. You always disappoint. Sorry my parents paid for your education and upkeep.

Thank your parents for me. Too bad they raised such a vindictive kid who still personalizes differences in opinion.