All Things Russia & Ukraine

[cradleandshoot]

...& the winners (US) told the losers what they could & could not do. As a result of what we orchestrated, we're right back into another Cold War.

You can't get into a Cold War with a pointless country OS. We've been in a Cold War with N Korea for how long now? Does anyone notice? Does anyone in America care, even a little? Or give even a moment's thought to N Korea? No, right? No one bothers calling it a "Cold War" because no one cares.

Just like we "whined" about the Soviets in Cuba & Nicaragua.

We didn't whine. We did something about it. Kennedy was the first and only President to stare down the Soviets at their height, and made them tuck tail and run. Scoreboard. I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

All these so called policy experts asking us to cede sovereignty of former Soviet satellites to Putin because some guy in his 60's or 70's thinks that Putin owns (insert country). Nope. He gave that up when the Soviets went belly up. So stop with the "we need to think like Putin".

We don't have to think like Putin anymore than we have to think like Trump's Rocket Man. You put both of these short sighted checker-players on ignore. And life goes on, and no one gives them a second thought.

Invade Ukraine. Please. And then the one stupid claim that Putin "fear's having Nato on his border".... is the guy who intentionally puts NATO on Ukraine's immediate border. Way to go, Putin. Really cookin' with oil now.

Hearing these infantile explanations for how Putin thinks is a joy. I don't care how he thinks. He's an idiot. He's has total control of Russia for 20 years, and the country is still a complete joke economically. He's a KGB hack who can't govern. You don't have to be smart to murder your political opponents. You just have to be a d*ck.

Country may be a joke, their military is dead serious very dangerous. What Putin decides to do I guarantee he does not give two chits about sanctions or what Joe Biden tells him not to do.

You have an advanced degree. You are clueless as to how dangerous the Russian military is?? Your advanced degree clearly has nothing to do with history. The one thing the Russians do well is understanding how to fight a war.

Why are you chitting your pants over something you can’t control? …..Instead of referencing advanced degree, just say I am more educated.



They understand just as much as we do….maybe they can head down to Grenada.

Clearly in your case more educated does not mean more smarter... Your advanced degree is a piece of paper that I'm sure has given you a comfortable lifestyle. Both of my sons have their college degrees. Both are very smart young men. If you put a hammer in their hands both of them are more likely to smash their thumb than hit the nail. That must be my calling in life, to bail out all you folks with advanced degrees who can't figure out what side of the hammer hits the nail.

Stop chitting your pants over things you can’t control.

And you can wipe your rear end with your advanced degree... Outside of providing you a living that is about all it is good for.

I recommend one of these or hiring labor:



Stop chitting your pants over things you can’t control.

Is that a framing hammer or a phallic symbol for your party? I know Democrats like long hard wood handles they can shove up their rear ends. I own a 16 oz Estwing hammer. I'm sorry it does not have that long wooden handle that gives you liberals the anal gratification your looking for. The HART framing hammer is what YOUR looking for. I think you can find it at Home Depot for under 40 dollars. If you want lube.. that is extra.

stop chitting your pants.

Your outta luck, I just got off the terlet taking care of bidness. Maybe tomorrow...

Stop chitting your pants about the things you can’t control. Is Putin underneath your bed?

Nope, do you have the handle of a framing hammer jammed up your arse? Your advanced degree certainly did not cover sarcasm and cynasism. I'm only guessing here but is your advanced degree in the field of basket weaving? Are an advanced apprentice from the Longerberger basket company?

[Typical Lax Dad]

...& the winners (US) told the losers what they could & could not do. As a result of what we orchestrated, we're right back into another Cold War.

You can't get into a Cold War with a pointless country OS. We've been in a Cold War with N Korea for how long now? Does anyone notice? Does anyone in America care, even a little? Or give even a moment's thought to N Korea? No, right? No one bothers calling it a "Cold War" because no one cares.

Just like we "whined" about the Soviets in Cuba & Nicaragua.

We didn't whine. We did something about it. Kennedy was the first and only President to stare down the Soviets at their height, and made them tuck tail and run. Scoreboard. I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

All these so called policy experts asking us to cede sovereignty of former Soviet satellites to Putin because some guy in his 60's or 70's thinks that Putin owns (insert country). Nope. He gave that up when the Soviets went belly up. So stop with the "we need to think like Putin".

We don't have to think like Putin anymore than we have to think like Trump's Rocket Man. You put both of these short sighted checker-players on ignore. And life goes on, and no one gives them a second thought.

Invade Ukraine. Please. And then the one stupid claim that Putin "fear's having Nato on his border".... is the guy who intentionally puts NATO on Ukraine's immediate border. Way to go, Putin. Really cookin' with oil now.

Hearing these infantile explanations for how Putin thinks is a joy. I don't care how he thinks. He's an idiot. He's has total control of Russia for 20 years, and the country is still a complete joke economically. He's a KGB hack who can't govern. You don't have to be smart to murder your political opponents. You just have to be a d*ck.

Country may be a joke, their military is dead serious very dangerous. What Putin decides to do I guarantee he does not give two chits about sanctions or what Joe Biden tells him not to do.

You have an advanced degree. You are clueless as to how dangerous the Russian military is?? Your advanced degree clearly has nothing to do with history. The one thing the Russians do well is understanding how to fight a war.

Why are you chitting your pants over something you can’t control? …..Instead of referencing advanced degree, just say I am more educated.



They understand just as much as we do….maybe they can head down to Grenada.

Clearly in your case more educated does not mean more smarter... Your advanced degree is a piece of paper that I'm sure has given you a comfortable lifestyle. Both of my sons have their college degrees. Both are very smart young men. If you put a hammer in their hands both of them are more likely to smash their thumb than hit the nail. That must be my calling in life, to bail out all you folks with advanced degrees who can't figure out what side of the hammer hits the nail.

Stop chitting your pants over things you can’t control.

And you can wipe your rear end with your advanced degree... Outside of providing you a living that is about all it is good for.

I recommend one of these or hiring labor:



Stop chitting your pants over things you can’t control.

Is that a framing hammer or a phallic symbol for your party? I know Democrats like long hard wood handles they can shove up their rear ends. I own a 16 oz Estwing hammer. I'm sorry it does not have that long wooden handle that gives you liberals the anal gratification your looking for. The HART framing hammer is what YOUR looking for. I think you can find it at Home Depot for under 40 dollars. If you want lube.. that is extra.

stop chitting your pants.

Your outta luck, I just got off the terlet taking care of bidness. Maybe tomorrow...

Stop chitting your pants about the things you can’t control. Is Putin underneath your bed?

Nope, do you have the handle of a framing hammer jammed up your arse? Your advanced degree certainly did not cover sarcasm and cynasism. I'm only guessing here but is your advanced degree in the field of basket weaving? Are an advanced apprentice from the Longerberger basket company?

It is for people that don't know which side of the hammer to use like you said. No sarcasm or cynicism. Just trying to help.

[cradleandshoot]

...& the winners (US) told the losers what they could & could not do. As a result of what we orchestrated, we're right back into another Cold War.

You can't get into a Cold War with a pointless country OS. We've been in a Cold War with N Korea for how long now? Does anyone notice? Does anyone in America care, even a little? Or give even a moment's thought to N Korea? No, right? No one bothers calling it a "Cold War" because no one cares.

Just like we "whined" about the Soviets in Cuba & Nicaragua.

We didn't whine. We did something about it. Kennedy was the first and only President to stare down the Soviets at their height, and made them tuck tail and run. Scoreboard. I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

All these so called policy experts asking us to cede sovereignty of former Soviet satellites to Putin because some guy in his 60's or 70's thinks that Putin owns (insert country). Nope. He gave that up when the Soviets went belly up. So stop with the "we need to think like Putin".

We don't have to think like Putin anymore than we have to think like Trump's Rocket Man. You put both of these short sighted checker-players on ignore. And life goes on, and no one gives them a second thought.

Invade Ukraine. Please. And then the one stupid claim that Putin "fear's having Nato on his border".... is the guy who intentionally puts NATO on Ukraine's immediate border. Way to go, Putin. Really cookin' with oil now.

Hearing these infantile explanations for how Putin thinks is a joy. I don't care how he thinks. He's an idiot. He's has total control of Russia for 20 years, and the country is still a complete joke economically. He's a KGB hack who can't govern. You don't have to be smart to murder your political opponents. You just have to be a d*ck.

Country may be a joke, their military is dead serious very dangerous. What Putin decides to do I guarantee he does not give two chits about sanctions or what Joe Biden tells him not to do.

You have an advanced degree. You are clueless as to how dangerous the Russian military is?? Your advanced degree clearly has nothing to do with history. The one thing the Russians do well is understanding how to fight a war.

Why are you chitting your pants over something you can’t control? …..Instead of referencing advanced degree, just say I am more educated.



They understand just as much as we do….maybe they can head down to Grenada.

Clearly in your case more educated does not mean more smarter... Your advanced degree is a piece of paper that I'm sure has given you a comfortable lifestyle. Both of my sons have their college degrees. Both are very smart young men. If you put a hammer in their hands both of them are more likely to smash their thumb than hit the nail. That must be my calling in life, to bail out all you folks with advanced degrees who can't figure out what side of the hammer hits the nail.

Stop chitting your pants over things you can’t control.

And you can wipe your rear end with your advanced degree... Outside of providing you a living that is about all it is good for.

I recommend one of these or hiring labor:



Stop chitting your pants over things you can’t control.

Is that a framing hammer or a phallic symbol for your party? I know Democrats like long hard wood handles they can shove up their rear ends. I own a 16 oz Estwing hammer. I'm sorry it does not have that long wooden handle that gives you liberals the anal gratification your looking for. The HART framing hammer is what YOUR looking for. I think you can find it at Home Depot for under 40 dollars. If you want lube.. that is extra.

stop chitting your pants.

Your outta luck, I just got off the terlet taking care of bidness. Maybe tomorrow...

Stop chitting your pants about the things you can’t control. Is Putin underneath your bed?

Nope, do you have the handle of a framing hammer jammed up your arse? Your advanced degree certainly did not cover sarcasm and cynasism. I'm only guessing here but is your advanced degree in the field of basket weaving? Are an advanced apprentice from the Longerberger basket company?

It is for people that don't know which side of the hammer to use like you said. No sarcasm or cynicism. Just trying to help.

It doesn't take an advanced degree to sink a 10 penny nail. Except in your case... The pointy side goes into the wood the flat side of the nail goes right under your thumb...

[PizzaSnake]

Gentlemen, Hamsterdam perhaps?

[cradleandshoot]

Gentlemen, Hamsterdam perhaps?

No https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ha ... disrespect involved or implied. Why don't you mind your own business. That will keep you busy all the time. Ask Hank Williams Jr.

[Typical Lax Dad]

...& the winners (US) told the losers what they could & could not do. As a result of what we orchestrated, we're right back into another Cold War.

You can't get into a Cold War with a pointless country OS. We've been in a Cold War with N Korea for how long now? Does anyone notice? Does anyone in America care, even a little? Or give even a moment's thought to N Korea? No, right? No one bothers calling it a "Cold War" because no one cares.

Just like we "whined" about the Soviets in Cuba & Nicaragua.

We didn't whine. We did something about it. Kennedy was the first and only President to stare down the Soviets at their height, and made them tuck tail and run. Scoreboard. I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

All these so called policy experts asking us to cede sovereignty of former Soviet satellites to Putin because some guy in his 60's or 70's thinks that Putin owns (insert country). Nope. He gave that up when the Soviets went belly up. So stop with the "we need to think like Putin".

We don't have to think like Putin anymore than we have to think like Trump's Rocket Man. You put both of these short sighted checker-players on ignore. And life goes on, and no one gives them a second thought.

Invade Ukraine. Please. And then the one stupid claim that Putin "fear's having Nato on his border".... is the guy who intentionally puts NATO on Ukraine's immediate border. Way to go, Putin. Really cookin' with oil now.

Hearing these infantile explanations for how Putin thinks is a joy. I don't care how he thinks. He's an idiot. He's has total control of Russia for 20 years, and the country is still a complete joke economically. He's a KGB hack who can't govern. You don't have to be smart to murder your political opponents. You just have to be a d*ck.

Country may be a joke, their military is dead serious very dangerous. What Putin decides to do I guarantee he does not give two chits about sanctions or what Joe Biden tells him not to do.

You have an advanced degree. You are clueless as to how dangerous the Russian military is?? Your advanced degree clearly has nothing to do with history. The one thing the Russians do well is understanding how to fight a war.

Why are you chitting your pants over something you can’t control? …..Instead of referencing advanced degree, just say I am more educated.



They understand just as much as we do….maybe they can head down to Grenada.

Clearly in your case more educated does not mean more smarter... Your advanced degree is a piece of paper that I'm sure has given you a comfortable lifestyle. Both of my sons have their college degrees. Both are very smart young men. If you put a hammer in their hands both of them are more likely to smash their thumb than hit the nail. That must be my calling in life, to bail out all you folks with advanced degrees who can't figure out what side of the hammer hits the nail.

Stop chitting your pants over things you can’t control.

And you can wipe your rear end with your advanced degree... Outside of providing you a living that is about all it is good for.

I recommend one of these or hiring labor:



Stop chitting your pants over things you can’t control.

Is that a framing hammer or a phallic symbol for your party? I know Democrats like long hard wood handles they can shove up their rear ends. I own a 16 oz Estwing hammer. I'm sorry it does not have that long wooden handle that gives you liberals the anal gratification your looking for. The HART framing hammer is what YOUR looking for. I think you can find it at Home Depot for under 40 dollars. If you want lube.. that is extra.

stop chitting your pants.

Your outta luck, I just got off the terlet taking care of bidness. Maybe tomorrow...

Stop chitting your pants about the things you can’t control. Is Putin underneath your bed?

Nope, do you have the handle of a framing hammer jammed up your arse? Your advanced degree certainly did not cover sarcasm and cynasism. I'm only guessing here but is your advanced degree in the field of basket weaving? Are an advanced apprentice from the Longerberger basket company?

It is for people that don't know which side of the hammer to use like you said. No sarcasm or cynicism. Just trying to help.

It doesn't take an advanced degree to sink a 10 penny nail. Except in your case... The pointy side goes into the wood the flat side of the nail goes right under your thumb...

[Typical Lax Dad]

Gentlemen, Hamsterdam perhaps?

I am going to take your advice.

[cradleandshoot]

...& the winners (US) told the losers what they could & could not do. As a result of what we orchestrated, we're right back into another Cold War.

You can't get into a Cold War with a pointless country OS. We've been in a Cold War with N Korea for how long now? Does anyone notice? Does anyone in America care, even a little? Or give even a moment's thought to N Korea? No, right? No one bothers calling it a "Cold War" because no one cares.

Just like we "whined" about the Soviets in Cuba & Nicaragua.

We didn't whine. We did something about it. Kennedy was the first and only President to stare down the Soviets at their height, and made them tuck tail and run. Scoreboard. I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

All these so called policy experts asking us to cede sovereignty of former Soviet satellites to Putin because some guy in his 60's or 70's thinks that Putin owns (insert country). Nope. He gave that up when the Soviets went belly up. So stop with the "we need to think like Putin".

We don't have to think like Putin anymore than we have to think like Trump's Rocket Man. You put both of these short sighted checker-players on ignore. And life goes on, and no one gives them a second thought.

Invade Ukraine. Please. And then the one stupid claim that Putin "fear's having Nato on his border".... is the guy who intentionally puts NATO on Ukraine's immediate border. Way to go, Putin. Really cookin' with oil now.

Hearing these infantile explanations for how Putin thinks is a joy. I don't care how he thinks. He's an idiot. He's has total control of Russia for 20 years, and the country is still a complete joke economically. He's a KGB hack who can't govern. You don't have to be smart to murder your political opponents. You just have to be a d*ck.

Country may be a joke, their military is dead serious very dangerous. What Putin decides to do I guarantee he does not give two chits about sanctions or what Joe Biden tells him not to do.

You have an advanced degree. You are clueless as to how dangerous the Russian military is?? Your advanced degree clearly has nothing to do with history. The one thing the Russians do well is understanding how to fight a war.

Why are you chitting your pants over something you can’t control? …..Instead of referencing advanced degree, just say I am more educated.



They understand just as much as we do….maybe they can head down to Grenada.

Clearly in your case more educated does not mean more smarter... Your advanced degree is a piece of paper that I'm sure has given you a comfortable lifestyle. Both of my sons have their college degrees. Both are very smart young men. If you put a hammer in their hands both of them are more likely to smash their thumb than hit the nail. That must be my calling in life, to bail out all you folks with advanced degrees who can't figure out what side of the hammer hits the nail.

Stop chitting your pants over things you can’t control.

And you can wipe your rear end with your advanced degree... Outside of providing you a living that is about all it is good for.

I recommend one of these or hiring labor:



Stop chitting your pants over things you can’t control.

Is that a framing hammer or a phallic symbol for your party? I know Democrats like long hard wood handles they can shove up their rear ends. I own a 16 oz Estwing hammer. I'm sorry it does not have that long wooden handle that gives you liberals the anal gratification your looking for. The HART framing hammer is what YOUR looking for. I think you can find it at Home Depot for under 40 dollars. If you want lube.. that is extra.

stop chitting your pants.

Your outta luck, I just got off the terlet taking care of bidness. Maybe tomorrow...

Stop chitting your pants about the things you can’t control. Is Putin underneath your bed?

Nope, do you have the handle of a framing hammer jammed up your arse? Your advanced degree certainly did not cover sarcasm and cynasism. I'm only guessing here but is your advanced degree in the field of basket weaving? Are an advanced apprentice from the Longerberger basket company?

It is for people that don't know which side of the hammer to use like you said. No sarcasm or cynicism. Just trying to help.

It doesn't take an advanced degree to sink a 10 penny nail. Except in your case... The pointy side goes into the wood the flat side of the nail goes right under your thumb...

I'm guessing at some point in your life you whammed your thumb trying to drive in a nail.

[old salt]

This is a complete reversal from your position 2yrs ago about Russia. Just to plant a flag here.

How so ? What is my position now ? What was it 2 years ago ?

This is my earliest post about Ukraine on FanLax ? What has changed ?
Read from the link, from 2018.

Russia election meddling : worse than a crime -- a blunder *

U.S.-Russian hostility is now inevitable, and the results could be tragic.

We're pissing away all that we won in the Cold War, for what ? So Ukraine can join NATO & the EU ? It's just stupid.

* America and its allies bear by far the greater share of the blame for the current tensions between the West and Russia. It was all predictable back in 1998 when NATO fashioned its policy of aggressive eastward expansion toward the Russian border. George F. Kennan, the highly respected U.S. diplomat and Russia expert, predicted the outcome in particularly stark terms. He called it “the beginning of a new cold war…a tragic mistake.” He foresaw that of course the Russians would react badly, as any nation would, and then the NATO expansionists would say, see, we always said the Russians were aggressive and couldn’t be trusted. “This is just wrong,” Kennan warned.

But if NATO expansion was a provocative policy destined to elicit a strong Russian response, the provocation was heightened hugely when America helped perpetrate a regime change initiative in Ukraine, which is not only next door to Russia but has been a crucial part of Russia’s sphere of influence going back to the mid-17th century. Further, Russia lies vulnerable to invasion. The unremitting grassy steppes of the nation, extending from Europe all the way to the Far East, with hardly a mountain range or seashore or major forest to hinder encroachment by army or horde, has fostered a national obsession over the need to control territory as a hedge against incursion. Such incursions from the West occurred three times in the 19th and 20th centuries.

Ukraine is crucial in this Russian sense of territorial imperative. It’s a tragically split country, with part tilting toward the West and part facing eastward toward Russia. That makes for a delicate political and geopolitical situation, but for centuries that delicate political and geopolitical situation has been overseen by Russia. Now the West wants to end that. Upending a duly elected (though corrupt) Ukrainian president was part of the plan. Getting Ukraine into NATO is the endgame.

Note that the Ukrainian revolution occurred in 2014, which just happened to be the year, according to the U.S. indictments, that Russia initiated its grand program to influence America’s 2016 elections. Kennan was right: Russia inevitably would react badly to the NATO encirclement policy, and then America’s anti-Russian cadres would cite that as evidence that the encirclement was necessary all along. That’s precisely what’s happening now.

[Farfromgeneva]

Nice waste of your token selectively parsing your comments over time.

Everyone who has paid an ounce of attention knows what time it is with your efforts to frame arguments and debate. I’m usually the vulgar one around here but I see 72s “colorful” visual in your biases. Same old bad faith.

[old salt]

Nice waste of your token selectively parsing your comments over time.

Everyone who has paid an ounce of attention knows what time it is with your efforts to frame arguments and debate. I’m usually the vulgar one around here but I see 72s “colorful” visual in your biases. Same old bad faith.

I've been consistent on Russia & Ukraine since before you started paying attention.
Please point out my inconsistencies & bad faith. Here's another post from 2018 :

Russia just seized 3 Ukrainian warships & imprisoned their crews. Ukraine has declared martial law & is on a war footing.

You told me before that Ukraine was supposed to be "Finland", not a part of NATO, and therefore not our problem.
That was the way to go, before we extended NATO to Ukraine's & Russia's borders. Before we promised Ukraine we'd guarantee their border if they gave up their nucs. Before we fomented the overthrow of their elected proRussia govt. Before we invited them into the Partnership for Peace, the pathway to NATO & EU membership.
Before we armed them. Before we sent US soldiers there to train them. Are you even aware that we have US troops on the ground in Ukraine, some in the field advising Ukraininan forces near the front lines in the east ?

[PizzaSnake]

So it’s just good old fashioned market manipulation? Pump and pump?

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/02/14/inve ... index.html

“ A Russian invasion of Ukraine could further disrupt supplies of crude, potentially leading prices that are already their highest in seven years and approaching $100 a barrel, to even loftier levels.”

Makes sense. If petroleum will be abandoned, may as well make as much money while you can. “Make hay while the sun shines…”

[old salt]

After this Russian show of force, two things are obvious :

(1) -- EU & NATO membership is not going to be offered to Ukraine in the foreseeable future, even if & when Ukraine qualifies for membership.

(2) -- NATO is not going to intervene militarily to defend Ukraine.

Zelensky must decide how much of a bloodletting of his people is he willing to endure to keep the unlikely hope of EU & NATO membership alive.

EU & NATO member nations must decide how much of a bloodletting in Ukraine they are willing to endure before they acknowledge they will never extend membership to Ukraine anyway.

Where is Neville Chamberlin when we need him ? Is this really worth the bloodbath ?

[old salt]

From National Review online :

Ukraine and the ‘Right Side of History’
by ANDREW STUTTAFORD, February 13, 2022 7:24 AM

Appalling though Vladimir Putin is, the idea that he is somehow a figure out of time, with no real place in the 21st century, is something that only those with a conviction that history moves, however uncertainly, in a certain direction could believe. In reality, history is, to quote (in bowdlerized form) an English writer, “just one thing after another.” It has no purpose, no fixed “arc.” If those who act as if it did are in senior enough positions, the results can be disastrous.

Writing in the Atlantic, Tom McTague:
" There is a peculiar modern tendency to describe things we don’t like as belonging to the past. The Taliban are medieval, Donald Trump supporters backward, Brexiteers nostalgic for empire. Under this rubric, Vladimir Putin is a Soviet throwback and the war he may soon start in Ukraine, as John Kerry once remarked, is like some 19th-century skirmish transplanted into the 21st. "

It is no doubt a comfort to imagine that these things that do not conform to our ideas of modernity are, therefore, not modern. To think this way means that we are modern and on “the right side of history.” In this way of looking at the world, all the bad things we see around us are like ghosts from the past whose deathly grip on progress might frustrate it for a while, and with potentially terrible consequences, but cannot stop its wheels from eventually grinding on. This is, of course, total nonsense…

Putin, who, whatever we want to believe, is a man very much of our world. In fact, not only is he as modern as any Western leader, but compared with those who seem to think that modernity equates with sometime around the year 2000, he is considerably more modern.

To be sure, modern does not mean “good” or “reasonable” or “right.” Nor does Putin’s modernity mean that he has been—or will be—successful, either for the Russian people or in his stated objectives of pushing back NATO’s frontiers and keeping Ukraine tied to Russia. To say that the Russian president is modern, in fact, is not to make a value judgment at all. He is, as my colleague Anne Applebaum has set out, a violent, kleptocratic danger to the world. Nevertheless, understanding Putin as a modern phenomenon is fundamentally important if we are to avoid the category error that assumes the danger posed by him and his sort is that they might turn back the clock, not speed it up, re-creating old worlds rather than forging new ones.

On the other hand, in making the new, it can be helpful to look back to the old, as something to be emulated, rejected or, indeed, both, copying a bit here, rejecting a bit there, and, often, reimagining a great deal more. One of the more interesting aspects of Putin’s thinking as it has evolved (at least in public) has been the way he has attempted to create a view of Russian history in which elements of the Czarist and Soviet past can be exhumed (and then often rewritten) to create a thread that unifies, rather than divides, his country.

McTague:
" Karl Marx noted that in moments of revolutionary crisis the spirits of the past are summoned up to present the new scene in a way we can understand. That is what Putin is doing today. The point, as Marx spotted, is not to actually make the old spirits rise again, but to use their memory to glorify the new struggle, magnifying the task in the public imagination. "

Marx was not always wrong.

Agree or disagree, there’s a great deal more in McTague’s article to consider (read the whole thing, really), but for now I’ll just quote this:

" The reemergence of China and Russia . . . poses an imaginative challenge. Suddenly, we are forced to confront the prospect that in the future we may not have “progressed” toward some more enlightened, just, and universal order. Instead, the future might be more particular, competitive, national, or perhaps even civilizational. And if that is the case, what happens if we are on the wrong side of history, not because we were necessarily wrong but because we just got beat? "

The West has not been beaten, nor need it be. Nevertheless, the complacency fostered by its elites’ quasi-religious belief in the inevitability of a curious, universalist vision of progress has presented Putin with at least a moment of opportunity — and China with rather more.

[youthathletics]

(2) -- NATO is not going to intervene militarily to defend Ukraine.

Curious, why do you think they will not enable NATO clause to bring in all the NATO nation troops. IS it b/c Biden said in no way is he entering Ukraine?

[old salt]

(2) -- NATO is not going to intervene militarily to defend Ukraine.

Curious, why do you think they will not enable NATO clause to bring in all the NATO nation troops. IS it b/c Biden said in no way is he entering Ukraine?

Ukraine is not a NATO member. There is no treaty obligation for NATO to defend Ukraine's border.

[youthathletics]

(2) -- NATO is not going to intervene militarily to defend Ukraine.

Curious, why do you think they will not enable NATO clause to bring in all the NATO nation troops. IS it b/c Biden said in no way is he entering Ukraine?

Ukraine is not a NATO member. There is no treaty obligation for NATO to defend Ukraine's border.

I fully understand that. I was questioning in the mindset that.....I would still think NATO would not sit idly by either...otherwise it seems to grossly minimize their value.

[old salt]

(2) -- NATO is not going to intervene militarily to defend Ukraine.

Curious, why do you think they will not enable NATO clause to bring in all the NATO nation troops. IS it b/c Biden said in no way is he entering Ukraine?

Ukraine is not a NATO member. There is no treaty obligation for NATO to defend Ukraine's border.

I fully understand that. I was questioning in the mindset that.....I would still think NATO would not sit idly by either...otherwise it seems to grossly minimize their value.

Do you mean why has NATO not activated the standing NATO Response Force (NRF) & deployed it to the E flank ?
Probably because they can't count on all NRF component members complying unless/until Russian forces commence hostile military actions inside Ukrainian territory. So far, it has just been a coalition of willing NATO partners deploying more forces to the E.

[youthathletics]

(2) -- NATO is not going to intervene militarily to defend Ukraine.

Curious, why do you think they will not enable NATO clause to bring in all the NATO nation troops. IS it b/c Biden said in no way is he entering Ukraine?

Ukraine is not a NATO member. There is no treaty obligation for NATO to defend Ukraine's border.

I fully understand that. I was questioning in the mindset that.....I would still think NATO would not sit idly by either...otherwise it seems to grossly minimize their value.

Do you mean why has NATO not activated the standing NATO Response Force (NRF) & deployed it to the E flank ?
Probably because they can't count on all NRF component members complying unless/until Russian forces commence hostile military actions inside Ukrainian territory. So far, it has just been a coalition of willing NATO partners deploying more forces to the E.

My initial question still stands.

Yes, I understand Ukraine is not in NATO, but under the circumstances, if Russia DOES START WAR, I find it odd NATO would not then institute “article 5” as they did in Sept2001. You seem certain in your bullet point 2, NATO is not going to intervene....I’m asking you why that stance.

[a fan]

After this Russian show of force, two things are obvious :

(1) -- EU & NATO membership is not going to be offered to Ukraine in the foreseeable future, even if & when Ukraine qualifies for membership.

(2) -- NATO is not going to intervene militarily to defend Ukraine.

Zelensky must decide how much of a bloodletting of his people is he willing to endure to keep the unlikely hope of EU & NATO membership alive.

EU & NATO member nations must decide how much of a bloodletting in Ukraine they are willing to endure before they acknowledge they will never extend membership to Ukraine anyway.

Where is Neville Chamberlin when we need him ? Is this really worth the bloodbath ?

Still can't enumerate the downsides for Putin, eh?

Pointless discussion if all you see is that every leader in the world is "doing it wrong" except Putin.