Perhaps you're missing the point. Sure, it's up to the Russians whether they put up with kleptocracy instead of democracy...but that has nothing to do with the consent of the governed in other areas regardless of whether they were at some or many points in history under the hegemony of Russia.old salt wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:45 pmI agree with the definition of liberalism in the articles I posted & linked.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:50 amBut then you abandoned liberalism to "realism" or "realpolitik" when it comes to Russia specifically...because what was once part of Russia's empire, whether Soviet or former Czarist Russa, must not be considered worthy of independence, "consent of the governed", "democracy" etc...nope, what Russia (Vlad) wants, realpolitik says they must get...old salt wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:03 amI thought for a moment above that you were going to go all-in for small l "liberalism" on this post, Salty. That said, what aspect are you describing as "liberalism"?I assume you approve of the Marshall Plan, our occupation of Japan & our decades long presence in S Korea, ...& the results.
How 'bout NATO solidarity leading to the outcome of the Cold War, the reunification of Germany & evolution of democracies in former Warsaw Pact nations & the former Soviet Baltic nations ? That was all US post WW II foreign policy. You're obsessed with only the negative.
That all turned out well & was little l liberalism.
#2 in this definition?
lib·er·al·ism
/ˈlib(ə)rəˌlizəm/
Learn to pronounce
See definitions in:
All
Theology
Politics
noun
noun: liberalism
1.
willingness to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one's own; openness to new ideas.
2.
a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise.
3.
the doctrine of a Liberal Party or (in the UK) the Liberal Democrats.
Translate liberalism to
Use over time for: liberalism
Or, perhaps this first paragraph?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law.[1][2][3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), democracy, secularism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion and a market economy.[11] Yellow is the political colour most commonly associated with liberalism.[12][13][14]
We failed in not anticipating the impact on Russia & the inevitable response.
We failed to appreciate the difference between Warsaw Pact nations that were forced to be Soviet satellite states & former Soviet republics which were historically part of greater Russia.
That is where our liberalism needed to be tempered with a dose of realism, ...which is what we are getting now.
I also agree that our post cold war foreign policy has been too much liberalism & not enough realism.
We did not abandon realism when it came to Russia. We tried, it failed. It's not up to us to deem whether Russians are worthy of democracy. They had that option twice in the 20th century & rejected democracy twice.
We chose to expand NATO east of Germany, this was the inevitable result as predicted by Kennan & Kissinger.
It was fine to encourage democracy but an overreach to agree to defend their borders.
Finland, Sweden, Austria & Switzerland have not needed NATO to defend them.
And those other countries have the right to ally themselves now with whoever they wish, join whatever multilateral organizations they wish, should those organizations accept them as compatible...Russia doesn't get a veto.
And while you say "we expanded NATO", lets not forget that people in those areas wished to join NATO, membership was not imposed...indeed it needed to be earned.
How about we counsel the Russians on "realism"?
They're a third rate power...with nukes and oil...and their neighbors don't want to live under their rule.