Is America a racist nation?

[MDlaxfan76]

And?

I was gonna say "Ya und?"

[cradleandshoot]

......https://www.cnn.com/style/article/theod ... index.html

yup, took a long time for those who found the statue offensive to persuade and move the system to take action. But now moved.

The mistake is to think that this is a wholesale rejection of Teddy Roosevelt. The specific statue was what was problematic.

It would be interesting for that statue to be displayed in a museum context with full explanation of its genesis, Teddy's history, and why it was moved, including why it was found inappropriate to be in the public square otherwise.

Hope that's what happens.
EDIT: ahh yes, in the Teddy Roosevelt Presidential Library.
Hope they explain the full rationale of its move.

So help me understand why that full explanation could not have been exactly where it was? Where it could have been read, explained and fully understood. It was at the "American History Museum" in the heart of a metropolis where so many would have benefited. Crazy times we live....why we have to hide our history in a closet is beyond me.....to me its the exact reason why it is perpetuated. TR was a progressive in the true sense, the man in the arena, did more for nature than anyone....now, he will viewed as a racist "its why they removed it", just weird, to me.

You think there's a real possibility of an open air explanation of why the statue doesn't belong in a place of prominence in the public square? I don't. No plaque deals with passersby who never see the plaque, instead see the statue from a distance, with the statement never made when a statue like that is removed from a position of prominence. a plaque simply can't do the issue justice.

Why would you view the current statue as some hierarchy of race....that is just strange. Hell, we witness that each Saturday and Sunday when Whitey Coach leads his mixed race team on to a field to battle.

They even voted in 2017 to add the signage: In 2017, a commission established by then-New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio evaluated the statue and several other controversial monuments on city-owned land. Members were divided on their recommendations, with half advocating for more research, half in favor of relocating the statue and several recommending that the museum keep the statue in place but add signage with more information and context. The city went with the third option.

We have become a bunch of pu**ies.

I disagree. The statue places Roosevelt on a horse above the Native American and above the sub-Saharan African. The symbolism is unmistakable and was on purpose. No white men on the ground. It was intentional. 1939. The Museum itself recognizes that to be the case.

Again, zero issue with a statue of Roosevelt, but that specific symbolism is understandably unacceptable. "signage" in that location would be insufficient IMO. Better than no signage, certainly but this is the right answer...

Heaven forbid we show a white man, leading and embracing other races to join in the spirit of America, oh the tragedy one must feel knowing a white man cared for them.

I suppose you knew the sculptor better than himself.

As an early champion of civil rights and equality for black and Native Americans during the early 20th century, many feel the statue depicts Roosevelt as leading minority persons in the U.S. forward towards the promises made to all under the U.S. constitution....
James Earle Fraser, stated the intent with these words: "The two figures at [Roosevelt's] side are guides symbolizing the continents of Africa and America, and if you choose may stand for Roosevelt's friendliness to all races."

The African is not from America, that's in reference to Roosevelt's trip to Africa. Colonial Africa.
It's in reference to yes, the white man's dominance of these two continents, the Native American symbolizing America.

And if you really don't understand the history of white supremacy and its underlying assumptions, and why those assumptions are no longer tolerated, not sure what I can do to explain it.

But to be clear, Roosevelt's own views on race were more about culture, not genetic differences, a presumption of the superiority of white European/American culture relative to the natives of either America or Africa. It was a paternalistic view shared by many of those who, for their time, were considered 'progressive'...indeed Roosevelt had a number of good relationships with individuals of other races.

If you had been the sculptor, in that time, how would you have designed the work differently?
When you answer that, as a sculptor today, how would you conceive/design the work?

Now, that's a good question...

But obviously the specific choices of the composition would raise red flags today.

A statue of Teddy climbing a hill or traveling a ford, in nature, would certainly be appropriate for the Museum of Natural History. Roosevelt was indeed a great lover of nature, and, our most important conservator of such for future generations of any POTUS.

It's difficult to know if the completed sculpture was indeed the artist's vision or was the result of fulfilled wishes/ideals of the people who commissioned the work.

Someone like Kismet may know

Yep. See my post above.
viewtopic.php?p=322106#p322106

The Museum explains it all quite succinctly and clearly including the history of the statue and why its being relocated. Also reviews the legacy of the Roosevelt Family with the museum as one of it first and largest benefactors including a memorial exhibit on Theodore Roosevelt that is very well done. It's difficult to argue with them

One of my favorite places to visit as a kid (along with the Hayden Planetarium right next door.). Never noticed the statue in all the times we were there.

Geez, not sure how I missed that...thanks! Excellent video and commentary.

Agreed, an excellent discussion and video.

Including the Museum's own complicity with the eugenics movement, as well as a well rounded discussion of Roosevelt's own white supremacist-tinged views on race coupled with his relative progressivism and of course contributions to conservation.

Far from a simple question: I liked the comment that "museums should not simplify history, rather they should complicate it".

At the same time, we make decisions constantly what we choose to hold up and honor in our public spaces. And this, too, is appropriate.

The bottomline for me was actually the commentary of various passersby who did not fully comprehend the symbolism, nor its fraught history. Indeed who wished to ignore that history and symbolism. They did not "learn" from that statue. Just as several posters on here were unaware of the symbolism and the history, the assumption was that we should 'leave things as they are' as the default. Didn't matter whether those folks were black or white or asian or whatever. Acceptance without question is an issue.

So, simply having a full contextualized display inside appears to me to be insufficient in the response to the statue as most of the public walks by oblivious, not seeing that display inside, while others, particularly those who are more aware of the history of white supremacy, colonialism, etc are far more bothered by it's remaining in a place of honor. The choice of placement is not just from the mid past century, but continues today...

I think the answer of moving the statue to inside the museum, coupled with the full contextualized display, might well have been the best answer. Own the earlier choices and let the statue draw attention to them.

I hope they keep the display, regardless of the choice to move it to the Presidential library. It's important history to explain...complicated.

What this country need is a new Federal Department of Offensive Statues. MD Lax could be chosen to be the new head honcho. I'm thinking here about symbolism over substance. A few weeks ago here in Rochester a 14 year old black youth was shot dead in front of a corner grocery store. His parents sent him there to pick up some for dinner that night. I wonder if his parents were more concerned about him being upset about a stupid statue of someone he may never even have heard of or being shot dead while on a mission to buy dinner for his family???

https://www.newskudo.com/new-york/roche ... -rochester

Brilliant effing logic in play here... move the statue to a new location so people can be offended with the appropriate "proper context" provided. :roll:https://13wham.com/news/local/carousel- ... beach-park

https://13wham.com/news/local/carousel- ... beach-park

This carousel has been at Charlotte Beach for 110 years. It took almost that long for someone to notice this panel. The controversy about what to do about it was a story all in itself. This Dentzel Carousel was granted historic national landmark status 40 years ago. It became a cumbersome process to have it removed. Is the panel offensive, it damn sure is. Is there any "proper context" to explain it? I doubt it very much.
https://charlottecca.org/living-here/de ... -carousel/

I rode on this carousel when I was a kid, I took my kids to ride on it when they were young. I never noticed this one piece of artwork in all those years. The fact is, it was there all along. When your spinning around in circles, nobody notices the background art.

[youthathletics]

And?

Did you watch it?

[Typical Lax Dad]

And?

I was gonna say "Ya und?"

Liberals and BLM are the Taliban.

[cradleandshoot]

And?

I was gonna say "Ya und?"

Liberals and BLM are the Taliban.

The Taliban are equal opportunity haters. I'm sure they would gladly decapitate liberals and BLM supporters equally with no predjice whatsoever. You could throw any other " infidels" into the equation as well.

[PizzaSnake]

wh

And?

Did you watch it?

I was paying attention when it happened.

And?

[cradleandshoot]

wh

And?

Did you watch it?

I was paying attention when it happened.

And?

So you were paying attention. Alot of the folks on this forum were also paying attention. What is the point?

[MDlaxfan76]

wh

And?

Did you watch it?

I was paying attention when it happened.

And?

So you were paying attention. Alot of the folks on this forum were also paying attention. What is the point?

That's what pizza and I were asking...what's the point?

He said "And?"
I said, "Ya und?"

mebbe we should just let youth or Salty respond as it was Salty's post and youth's response.

[Typical Lax Dad]

wh

And?

Did you watch it?

I was paying attention when it happened.

And?

So you were paying attention. Alot of the folks on this forum were also paying attention. What is the point?

That's what pizza and I were asking...what's the point?

He said "And?"
I said, "Ya und?"

mebbe we should just let youth or Salty respond as it was Salty's post and youth's response.

It was Old S

[cradleandshoot]

wh

And?

Did you watch it?

I was paying attention when it happened.

And?

hi

So you were paying attention. Alot of the folks on this forum were also paying attention. What is the point?

That's what pizza and I were asking...what's the point?

He said "And?"
I said, "Ya und?"

mebbe we should just let youth or Salty respond as it was Salty's post and youth's response.

Mebbe you should? Mebbe they would make more sense than what your saying?

[MDlaxfan76]

And?

I was gonna say "Ya und?"

Liberals and BLM are the Taliban.

Stone Mountain should be a UNESCO World Heritage site?

[cradleandshoot]

Maybe we should have just used some C4 and blown up the sculpture in question???? That is what the Thallllybhan would do and did.

[MDlaxfan76]

Maybe we should have just used some C4 and blown up the sculpture in question???? That is what the Thallllybhan would do and did.

I'm ok with that for Stone Mountain, though doubt it would be so crude.
Stone Mountain ain't a UNESCO World Heritage site and will never be one.
It's a monument to slavery, white supremacy, and sedition.
I guess for some that's a "religion"...

Just less than 50 years since its carving paid for by white supremacists, KKK supporters...official opening was purposely scheduled for 100 year anniversary of Lincoln's assassination.

But Salty's free to explain his intent. We merely asked...

[cradleandshoot]

And?

I was gonna say "Ya und?"

Liberals and BLM are the Taliban.

Stone Mountain should be a UNESCO World Heritage site?

Let the tallybhaaan have at it then... As long as Stone Mountain is presented with the appropriate " context" why would you not be fine with that?? Maybe put a politically correct plaque at the base to explain the proper context why the monument is offensive?

[MDlaxfan76]

And?

I was gonna say "Ya und?"

Liberals and BLM are the Taliban.

Stone Mountain should be a UNESCO World Heritage site?

Let the tallybhaaan have at it then... As long as Stone Mountain is presented with the appropriate " context" why would you not be fine with that?? Maybe put a politically correct plaque at the base to explain the proper context why the monument is offensive?

I'm fine with it's destruction, as explained above.

I'd jackhammer it flat, commission a bas relief commemorating civil rights movement and leaders, and have a small museum with pictures and documentary of the prior carving, its ugly history, and the importance of civil rights...that's the "context" I'd find most appropriate.

The park will continue to thrive as a family entertainment.

[cradleandshoot]

Maybe we should have just used some C4 and blown up the sculpture in question???? That is what the Thallllybhan would do and did.

I'm ok with that for Stone Mountain, though doubt it would be so crude.
Stone Mountain ain't a UNESCO World Heritage site and will never be one.
It's a monument to slavery, white supremacy, and sedition.
I guess for some that's a "religion"...

But Salty's free to explain his intent. We merely asked...

I'm guessing you didn't read my link to the Dentzel Carousel at Charlotte Beach? Read it and get back to me. The carousel has been designated as a historical national landmark. Sooooo you have no problem with removing that panel until your vision of " proper context" is defined? Even if it took a 110 years for anybody to notice it.

What about The Final Judgement ? That work of art by Michaelangelo in the Sistine Chapel. The original artwork the subjects were all painted nude. Should the Vatican have blown up the chapel or simply have fig leaves and such painted over the offensive dangling anatomy?

[Farfromgeneva]

A plaque at the base? Should probably check out the area to understand how it all is before thinking that would do anything.

I asked a few folks last night and flit sounds like the biggest issue is the cost and complications to a removal. Not that it’s an excuse but that’s more what’s holding up and changes than any cultural issues or arguments around it.

How long something has been addressed as an issue doesn’t seem like a meaningful consideration in how it fits in today.

[MDlaxfan76]

Maybe we should have just used some C4 and blown up the sculpture in question???? That is what the Thallllybhan would do and did.

I'm ok with that for Stone Mountain, though doubt it would be so crude.
Stone Mountain ain't a UNESCO World Heritage site and will never be one.
It's a monument to slavery, white supremacy, and sedition.
I guess for some that's a "religion"...

But Salty's free to explain his intent. We merely asked...

I'm guessing you didn't read my link to the Dentzel Carousel at Charlotte Beach? Read it and get back to me. The carousel has been designated as a historical national landmark. Sooooo you have no problem with removing that panel until your vision of " proper context" is defined? Even if it took a 110 years for anybody to notice it.

Yeah, I don't know hardly anything about your Carousel or the issue at hand, but I'd wager that this wasn't just "noticed" now...I'd wager it was noticed aplenty but no one thought it worthy to listen, and paling in comparison to other 'symbols' offensiveness so didn't draw much attention when there were much worse 'symbols' to focus on...believe me, Aunt Jemima wasn't first noticed to be offensive in the wake of George Floyd, it just wasn't being listened to by the white majority. That's what's really changed, more white folks willing to listen and consider taking action. Eyes more open, hearts more open.

I'd have to know more about the particular issue of the Carousel, options to address...my first instinct is usually to think about ways that things can be preserved for further education, not destroyed. Not always worth preserving, though, and certainly not always worth presenting in a place of honor.

Doesn't sound like that's what going on with this panel, so perhaps some signage that actually draws attention and delivers real educational value would suffice. If not, then removal of the single panel could well be appropriate...but there are indeed hoops to go through if designated as an historical landmark. So, I'd look first to addressing it through an educational exhibit and signage.

[cradleandshoot]

Maybe we should have just used some C4 and blown up the sculpture in question???? That is what the Thallllybhan would do and did.

I'm ok with that for Stone Mountain, though doubt it would be so crude.
Stone Mountain ain't a UNESCO World Heritage site and will never be one.
It's a monument to slavery, white supremacy, and sedition.
I guess for some that's a "religion"...

But Salty's free to explain his intent. We merely asked...

I'm guessing you didn't read my link to the Dentzel Carousel at Charlotte Beach? Read it and get back to me. The carousel has been designated as a historical national landmark. Sooooo you have no problem with removing that panel until your vision of " proper context" is defined? Even if it took a 110 years for anybody to notice it.

Yeah, I don't know hardly anything about your Carousel or the issue at hand, but I'd wager that this wasn't just "noticed" now...I'd wager it was noticed aplenty but no one thought it worthy to listen, and paling in comparison to other 'symbols' offensiveness so didn't draw much attention when there were much worse 'symbols' to focus on...believe me, Aunt Jemima wasn't first noticed to be offensive in the wake of George Floyd, it just wasn't being listened to by the white majority. That's what's really changed, more white folks willing to listen and consider taking action. Eyes more open, hearts more open.

I'd have to know more about the particular issue of the Carousel, options to address...my first instinct is usually to think about ways that things can be preserved for further education, not destroyed. Not always worth preserving, though, and certainly not always worth presenting in a place of honor.

Doesn't sound like that's what going on with this panel, so perhaps some signage that actually draws attention and delivers real educational value would suffice. If not, then removal of the single panel could well be appropriate...but there are indeed hoops to go through if designated as an historical landmark. So, I'd look first to addressing it through an educational exhibit and signage.

Read the damn link and educate yourself. YES it took that long before someone noticed that one panel. So your back to your same dumb ass original point... Just provide some historical perspective and context and everything will be just fine.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Maybe we should have just used some C4 and blown up the sculpture in question???? That is what the Thallllybhan would do and did.

I'm ok with that for Stone Mountain, though doubt it would be so crude.
Stone Mountain ain't a UNESCO World Heritage site and will never be one.
It's a monument to slavery, white supremacy, and sedition.
I guess for some that's a "religion"...

But Salty's free to explain his intent. We merely asked...

I'm guessing you didn't read my link to the Dentzel Carousel at Charlotte Beach? Read it and get back to me. The carousel has been designated as a historical national landmark. Sooooo you have no problem with removing that panel until your vision of " proper context" is defined? Even if it took a 110 years for anybody to notice it.

Yeah, I don't know hardly anything about your Carousel or the issue at hand, but I'd wager that this wasn't just "noticed" now...I'd wager it was noticed aplenty but no one thought it worthy to listen, and paling in comparison to other 'symbols' offensiveness so didn't draw much attention when there were much worse 'symbols' to focus on...believe me, Aunt Jemima wasn't first noticed to be offensive in the wake of George Floyd, it just wasn't being listened to by the white majority. That's what's really changed, more white folks willing to listen and consider taking action. Eyes more open, hearts more open.

I'd have to know more about the particular issue of the Carousel, options to address...my first instinct is usually to think about ways that things can be preserved for further education, not destroyed. Not always worth preserving, though, and certainly not always worth presenting in a place of honor.

Doesn't sound like that's what going on with this panel, so perhaps some signage that actually draws attention and delivers real educational value would suffice. If not, then removal of the single panel could well be appropriate...but there are indeed hoops to go through if designated as an historical landmark. So, I'd look first to addressing it through an educational exhibit and signage.

Read the damn link and educate yourself. YES it took that long before someone noticed that one panel. So your back to your same dumb ass original point... Just provide some historical perspective and context and everything will be just fine.

https://www.rochestersubway.com/topics/ ... -ridicule/

I am with you Cradle…. I don’t know why anyone would be offended….if anything, that chicken should be scared