NCAA reorg imminent

[Farfromgeneva]

NCAA just approved financial aid legislation changes yesterday which will allow hobart to offer athletic aid.

I had no idea.....they've been playing D1 all this time with no scholarships? Huh.

Yeah they’ve appealed numerous times since the change in 1995 and been denied. Argument went that they would’ve gone D1 at the orig split like Hopkins did but since they were allowed to play those split schedules that were half (or more) D1 while running D3 through the 80s into the 90s they didn’t need to make that move then. Only in 94 when they made the change did Hobart decide, due to the 100yr Cornell and 90yr Syracuse history to make the move. Every time they’ve been denied. Only catch is kid can’t play FB and Lacrosse. Not a huge deal but we’ve had a few solid two sport kids over the years like Tony Aguilar, Tim Booth, Justin Hager, Jamie Breslin, Kevin DeWall, Scott Yoder & Sean Cunningham (and others) and that cant work under this new guideline as I understand it.

[a fan]

NCAA just approved financial aid legislation changes yesterday which will allow hobart to offer athletic aid.

I had no idea.....they've been playing D1 all this time with no scholarships? Huh.

Yeah they’ve appealed numerous times since the change in 1995 and been denied

I can't believe I didn't know this. Thanks for sharing this.

This is a big deal for Hobart! Congratulations!

[Farfromgeneva]

NCAA just approved financial aid legislation changes yesterday which will allow hobart to offer athletic aid.

I had no idea.....they've been playing D1 all this time with no scholarships? Huh.

Yeah they’ve appealed numerous times since the change in 1995 and been denied

I can't believe I didn't know this. Thanks for sharing this.

This is a big deal for Hobart! Congratulations!

Some have argued they can be more generous with merit aid but I don’t see it and know we’ve lost a number over the years. They could’ve consolidated more kids who were studs at smaller schools over the years, especially Canadians like we missed on this kid Adam Jones (https://gogriffs.com/sports/mens-lacros ... jones/2294 ) at Canisius because of a few bucks, and it might’ve been the difference between an extra 1-3 wins a year back when they jd those top 20 schedules and we’re competing in the ECAC and PL, sometimes winning AQs in PL and finishing around .500 in a loaded ECAC mid 2000s.

[Farfromgeneva]

A lot of the above discussion is quite random and wrong. Let me set a few things straight:

1. The players are ALWAYS going to be students. ALWAYS. The schools have spent the last 10 years furiously and expensively litigating primarily to establish this principle. And they have been completely successful in establishing that principle. Having won on that principle, they will NEVER abandon that. NEVER.

Athletes being students, per the schools in sworn testimony to federal judges, is THE CORE CONCEPT of college sports. It fundamentally defines the college sports business (and all now agree/admit that it is a business) as a product (under anti-trust law principles) distinct from the pro sports business. The schools have ZERO interest in operating the Tuscaloosa Crimson football team and NEVER will do that.

Back in the olden days, schools like Yale and Chicago did operate commercial teams that featured non-students. The NCAA came into existence over 100 years ago to get rid of that. That concept is, and will remain, dead dead dead dead dead.

The only real proposal for a pro/college sports league was the HBCU-oriented Professional Collegiate League. The PCL concept, which makes a lot of sense on a whiteboard, has been really struggling. So no evidence that such concept would ever catch on more broadly.

2. Title IX has NOTHING to do with NIL. NOTHING. The whole concept of NIL, after all, is that it is separate from the schools and personal. Title IX has NOTHING to do with regulating what a college athlete makes in his side hussle as a waiter, Uber driver or Instagram influencer. Because non-athlete students are also free and unregulated to have side hussles too.

Kids can make money on side hussles, get their earnings reported to the IRS, and then pay taxes. Doesn't matter if you are an athlete or not. Doesn't matter if the job is working at Starbucks or doing TV commercials for the local car dealer.

In fact, the whole NIL being separate is the key thing that will maintain the current system and allow it to continue to evolve. T9 would be strongly implicated if schools started paying actual salaries and then adjusted the salaries to reflect actual market value. Instead, the schools stay removed from all that. If star QB makes more on the side than the XC runner, so what? That's the market, not the school, making that happen.

How does one argue with a straight face that the name, image and likeness compensation isn’t tied to athletic performance? I’ve got buddies as partners Sully, Cadwalader and King and Spalding that wouldn’t even try to make that case (actually on their fee schedule, in some cases over $1k/hr, I’m sure they’d take it on but not confidently). What about the resources a school dedicated to promote the name, image and likeness?

I don’t know all the answers but I don’t see how they can be untethered/bifurcated. And this says nothing as to “fair market value” in an effectively antitrust protected industry. What’s market value? I work with level 3 assets (accounting term for assets that don’t have a liquid market) all the time and that tends to be up to the interpretation of the regulators. (https://www.clearyenforcementwatch.com/ ... comes-end/)

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://slate.com/culture/2021/12/colle ... eason.html

[wgdsr]

A lot of the above discussion is quite random and wrong. Let me set a few things straight:

1. The players are ALWAYS going to be students. ALWAYS. The schools have spent the last 10 years furiously and expensively litigating primarily to establish this principle. And they have been completely successful in establishing that principle. Having won on that principle, they will NEVER abandon that. NEVER.

Athletes being students, per the schools in sworn testimony to federal judges, is THE CORE CONCEPT of college sports. It fundamentally defines the college sports business (and all now agree/admit that it is a business) as a product (under anti-trust law principles) distinct from the pro sports business. The schools have ZERO interest in operating the Tuscaloosa Crimson football team and NEVER will do that.

Back in the olden days, schools like Yale and Chicago did operate commercial teams that featured non-students. The NCAA came into existence over 100 years ago to get rid of that. That concept is, and will remain, dead dead dead dead dead.

The only real proposal for a pro/college sports league was the HBCU-oriented Professional Collegiate League. The PCL concept, which makes a lot of sense on a whiteboard, has been really struggling. So no evidence that such concept would ever catch on more broadly.

2. Title IX has NOTHING to do with NIL. NOTHING. The whole concept of NIL, after all, is that it is separate from the schools and personal. Title IX has NOTHING to do with regulating what a college athlete makes in his side hussle as a waiter, Uber driver or Instagram influencer. Because non-athlete students are also free and unregulated to have side hussles too.

Kids can make money on side hussles, get their earnings reported to the IRS, and then pay taxes. Doesn't matter if you are an athlete or not. Doesn't matter if the job is working at Starbucks or doing TV commercials for the local car dealer.

In fact, the whole NIL being separate is the key thing that will maintain the current system and allow it to continue to evolve. T9 would be strongly implicated if schools started paying actual salaries and then adjusted the salaries to reflect actual market value. Instead, the schools stay removed from all that. If star QB makes more on the side than the XC runner, so what? That's the market, not the school, making that happen.

holy sh**te batman! i agree with ggait on something! and some title 9 @ that!
my nit would be never. think we have this system in various forms for 5 or 10 years. then all bets are off. never's a long time. tho that may be what the proposals are for.

[Farfromgeneva]

https://slate.com/culture/2021/12/colle ... eason.html

How do i invest in opendorse? That’s the play.

[Farfromgeneva]

A lot of the above discussion is quite random and wrong. Let me set a few things straight:

1. The players are ALWAYS going to be students. ALWAYS. The schools have spent the last 10 years furiously and expensively litigating primarily to establish this principle. And they have been completely successful in establishing that principle. Having won on that principle, they will NEVER abandon that. NEVER.

Athletes being students, per the schools in sworn testimony to federal judges, is THE CORE CONCEPT of college sports. It fundamentally defines the college sports business (and all now agree/admit that it is a business) as a product (under anti-trust law principles) distinct from the pro sports business. The schools have ZERO interest in operating the Tuscaloosa Crimson football team and NEVER will do that.

Back in the olden days, schools like Yale and Chicago did operate commercial teams that featured non-students. The NCAA came into existence over 100 years ago to get rid of that. That concept is, and will remain, dead dead dead dead dead.

The only real proposal for a pro/college sports league was the HBCU-oriented Professional Collegiate League. The PCL concept, which makes a lot of sense on a whiteboard, has been really struggling. So no evidence that such concept would ever catch on more broadly.

2. Title IX has NOTHING to do with NIL. NOTHING. The whole concept of NIL, after all, is that it is separate from the schools and personal. Title IX has NOTHING to do with regulating what a college athlete makes in his side hussle as a waiter, Uber driver or Instagram influencer. Because non-athlete students are also free and unregulated to have side hussles too.

Kids can make money on side hussles, get their earnings reported to the IRS, and then pay taxes. Doesn't matter if you are an athlete or not. Doesn't matter if the job is working at Starbucks or doing TV commercials for the local car dealer.

In fact, the whole NIL being separate is the key thing that will maintain the current system and allow it to continue to evolve. T9 would be strongly implicated if schools started paying actual salaries and then adjusted the salaries to reflect actual market value. Instead, the schools stay removed from all that. If star QB makes more on the side than the XC runner, so what? That's the market, not the school, making that happen.

holy sh**te batman! i agree with ggait on something! and some title 9 @ that!
my nit would be never. think we have this system in various forms for 5 or 10 years. then all bets are off. never's a long time. tho that may be what the proposals are for.

Absolutes are highly probabilistically unlikely to remain true and accurate. (Try saying absolutes are long term ineffective without using an absolute in the statement)

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://slate.com/culture/2021/12/colle ... eason.html

How do i invest in opendorse? That’s the play.

Yep. Mining Town concept.

[oldbartman]

NCAA just approved financial aid legislation changes yesterday which will allow hobart to offer athletic aid.

I had no idea.....they've been playing D1 all this time with no scholarships? Huh.

Yup.. the NC$$ has been sticking it to Hobart (for lacrosse) since we moved to D I. It will be interesting to see how it works. Being able to compete for talent on a level field is a HUGE plus. This ruling helps RIT & Union for men's ice hockey.

[OCanada]

Hobart back in the day had to choose whether to be D1. It had a fantastic record. The choice was supposed to be a one time deal. The inability to offer schollies traces back to the choice not go be D1. They were not alone. I am glad they got the ability. It wasn’t a persecution. Hope my info is 100%

[Farfromgeneva]

Yes but the choice was offered at a time when interdivisional play was allowed. Had that not been allowed in 1978-79 they likely would’ve chosen the path Hop took. Only when they changed that in 93-94 did it become an issue. So they changed the terms of the deal on us (and RIT, RPI, Hartwick and the couple of other split division athletics programs). It wasn’t like Hobart just changed its mind on it’s own. They have the most played rivalry in college lacrosse with Cornell (not oldest per se but most played) it’s a big deal in CNY/WNY. It also wasnt unreasonable when they had won 13 straight D3 titles but that’s besides the point. The NCAA changed the terms of the deal they offered originally. We got retraced but by the 90s CFB was making some money and they were really hoping we’d stay D3 they never wanted us to make the choice to move up but had to provide it just with different terms than previously offered.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornell ... se_rivalry

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobart– ... se_rivalry

[oldbartman]

Hobart back in the day had to choose whether to be D1. It had a fantastic record. The choice was supposed to be a one time deal. The inability to offer schollies traces back to the choice not go be D1. They were not alone. I am glad they got the ability. It wasn’t a persecution. Hope my info is 100%

When Hobart chose to go D 1, the thought was we would be granted the ability to offer athletic scholarships going forward. It wasn't a "permanent" ban. The NC$$ allowed this as it was going to lose if it was taken to federal court. They had zero legitimate arguments to continue this BS. Remember, the NC$$ is all about getting paid. They could give a sh!t about how their decisions really affect student athletes.

[Farfromgeneva]

Hence Hobart fans in general have long long scrutinized the joke that is the NCAA. They even slapped us w sanctions for minor stuff, largely record keeping under our prior nice guy but professionally under qualified to run any D1 program AD.

[10stone5]

This talk of the Colonial conference actually goes back some time,

so whatever is going on with the NCAA, a reorganization or who knows what,

with individual schools and conferences there has been any number of things going on behind the scenes,

By HBCU Sports - October 28, 2021

Hampton, Howard eyed in rumored CAA expansion talks
In preliminary expansion conversations, the CAA reportedly has identified Hampton and Howard as potential members.

The Colonial Athletic Association has been exploring the possibility of expanding its conference, and a pair of HBCUs could be targeted.

In preliminary expansion conversations, the CAA reportedly has identified Hampton and Howard as potential members, according to reports.

There have been rumors that the league is determining whether to add Monmouth, Fairfield, and others to the 10-team conference to reduce travel costs.

[OCanada]

There will be a NIL summit in Atlanta in mid June to educate the NIL eligibles, administrators, agencies etc. it is expected to become an annual event,

[steel_hop]

2. Title IX has NOTHING to do with NIL. NOTHING. The whole concept of NIL, after all, is that it is separate from the schools and personal. Title IX has NOTHING to do with regulating what a college athlete makes in his side hussle as a waiter, Uber driver or Instagram influencer. Because non-athlete students are also free and unregulated to have side hussles too.

Kids can make money on side hussles, get their earnings reported to the IRS, and then pay taxes. Doesn't matter if you are an athlete or not. Doesn't matter if the job is working at Starbucks or doing TV commercials for the local car dealer.

In fact, the whole NIL being separate is the key thing that will maintain the current system and allow it to continue to evolve. T9 would be strongly implicated if schools started paying actual salaries and then adjusted the salaries to reflect actual market value. Instead, the schools stay removed from all that. If star QB makes more on the side than the XC runner, so what? That's the market, not the school, making that happen.

I agree completely that Title IX has nothing to do with NIL but not sure it will let the current system remain. This is all about football and men's basketball. Yes, there are the odd female Stanford basketball twins (or where ever they are from) but this train is being driven by football. Lacrosse and all the other sports are just going for a ride and will deal with fall out once it all is settled. Hopefully, the fall out doesn't crush schools like Hopkins and others to the point they can't play at DI any more.

As for NIL, could you imagine the lawsuit that is generated if star QB had to share some of his NIL money with the second back-up to the free style swim team just on Title IX grounds. So long as the money flows outside of the school, then I see no reason for something like that to happen.

What is more concerning is that the NCAA and the like feel that they need to make some overwhelming change when just letting a year or two play out. Kids with these huge deals aren't going to continue. It is certainly like the wild west with money flowing all over the place but these types of things tend to play themselves out as all parties understand value. Did the parties that gave the kid from Texas that went OSU for 6 months to play 3rd string back-up QB get their $1.0 million worth when he left? Most of these guys are smart businesspeople. They'll see that most of this money is not being spent wisely. For every Texas A&M deal for one year, there will be years where the boosters will realize this isn't well spent.

Just needs to take time. But, yes, I think changings are coming.

[HooDat]

I think the DOJ or feds can come in and demand any records they want if they want as it pertains to civil rights. A college caught not having it will have problems I can guarantee.

Colleges have complete records of, for example, summer jobs that students held?

And of course for calculating financial aid they’ll have record of student income.

Right....things that apply to ALL students will work. Good point here. They'll have that....assuming kids get aid, and report their jobs while attending school. I don't remember doing that, and I worked all during college....but that was a loooooong time ago.

But those are just numbers...nothing saying where that income came from, correct?

If I see a pool of football dudes making $xxx,xxx in their fafsa and related aid docs and then see the entire pool of students which is easy to stratify then as a civil rights investigator I’m going to dig for more info. Ties back to proportionality. That’s where it gets complicated. There’s a lot of record kept that seem superfluous until that one time it’s needed or it costs tens of millions of dollars.

But under the assumption that the FBall and BBall players are well paid (as in have a job, not work-study), they do not need to complete a FAFSA, because they do not require Financial Aid.

EXACTLY my point! They pay cash tuition and room and board. They stop playing for the "team" and they can figure out another way to pay.... Not saying its something I think is "right" - just saying it is the logical conclusion of the path we are on.

[HooDat]

A lot of the above discussion is quite random and wrong. Let me set a few things straight:

1. The players are ALWAYS going to be students. ALWAYS. The schools have spent the last 10 years furiously and expensively litigating primarily to establish this principle. And they have been completely successful in establishing that principle. Having won on that principle, they will NEVER abandon that. NEVER.

Athletes being students, per the schools in sworn testimony to federal judges, is THE CORE CONCEPT of college sports. It fundamentally defines the college sports business (and all now agree/admit that it is a business) as a product (under anti-trust law principles) distinct from the pro sports business. The schools have ZERO interest in operating the Tuscaloosa Crimson football team and NEVER will do that.

Back in the olden days, schools like Yale and Chicago did operate commercial teams that featured non-students. The NCAA came into existence over 100 years ago to get rid of that. That concept is, and will remain, dead dead dead dead dead.

The only real proposal for a pro/college sports league was the HBCU-oriented Professional Collegiate League. The PCL concept, which makes a lot of sense on a whiteboard, has been really struggling. So no evidence that such concept would ever catch on more broadly.

2. Title IX has NOTHING to do with NIL. NOTHING. The whole concept of NIL, after all, is that it is separate from the schools and personal. Title IX has NOTHING to do with regulating what a college athlete makes in his side hussle as a waiter, Uber driver or Instagram influencer. Because non-athlete students are also free and unregulated to have side hussles too.

Kids can make money on side hussles, get their earnings reported to the IRS, and then pay taxes. Doesn't matter if you are an athlete or not. Doesn't matter if the job is working at Starbucks or doing TV commercials for the local car dealer.

In fact, the whole NIL being separate is the key thing that will maintain the current system and allow it to continue to evolve. T9 would be strongly implicated if schools started paying actual salaries and then adjusted the salaries to reflect actual market value. Instead, the schools stay removed from all that. If star QB makes more on the side than the XC runner, so what? That's the market, not the school, making that happen.

holy sh**te batman! i agree with ggait on something! and some title 9 @ that!
my nit would be never. think we have this system in various forms for 5 or 10 years. then all bets are off. never's a long time. tho that may be what the proposals are for.

ggait - you are talking inertia. If the students are "working" for a team that happens to license a name and either acquired or leases field space aren't they protected from worker's comp claims? Which is my main understanding of the importance of (insert Cartmann voice) "student athletes"...?

As for the rest of the student athlete farse - does anyone think that the BOV at Alabama gives a rat's behind about purity tests? But in my made up scenario, they would be students - the exact same kind of students there are today, some will take advantage some won't....

[Typical Lax Dad]

I think the DOJ or feds can come in and demand any records they want if they want as it pertains to civil rights. A college caught not having it will have problems I can guarantee.

Colleges have complete records of, for example, summer jobs that students held?

And of course for calculating financial aid they’ll have record of student income.

Right....things that apply to ALL students will work. Good point here. They'll have that....assuming kids get aid, and report their jobs while attending school. I don't remember doing that, and I worked all during college....but that was a loooooong time ago.

But those are just numbers...nothing saying where that income came from, correct?

If I see a pool of football dudes making $xxx,xxx in their fafsa and related aid docs and then see the entire pool of students which is easy to stratify then as a civil rights investigator I’m going to dig for more info. Ties back to proportionality. That’s where it gets complicated. There’s a lot of record kept that seem superfluous until that one time it’s needed or it costs tens of millions of dollars.

But under the assumption that the FBall and BBall players are well paid (as in have a job, not work-study), they do not need to complete a FAFSA, because they do not require Financial Aid.

EXACTLY my point! They pay cash tuition and room and board. They stop playing for the "team" and they can figure out another way to pay.... Not saying its something I think is "right" - just saying it is the logical conclusion of the path we are on.

Make them pay tuition room and board. Make all of the athletes pay tuition room and board. I believe schools should go the D3 model and let the farm teams become just that.