NCAA reorg imminent

[HooDat]

Why can't Alabama eliminate football as a sport it offers, and then lease its stadium and logo to a professional team that is owned by the Alumni Association?

The team could pay the athletes enough to cover tuition, room & board, and other expenses plus whatever spending money they want - NIL's would factor in I am guessing. Football becomes a "side job" for the "student". I see no reason why Bama, Texas, ND, Georgia, etc...

The only hurdle I see is that for it to work, they all have to do it at once.

How do you justify admission of many of the kids under that construct?

My simple response - to WHOM do they have to justify their admissions?

[a fan]

I think the DOJ or feds can come in and demand any records they want if they want as it pertains to civil rights. A college caught not having it will have problems I can guarantee.

Colleges have complete records of, for example, summer jobs that students held?

And of course for calculating financial aid they’ll have record of student income.

Right....things that apply to ALL students will work. Good point here. They'll have that....assuming kids get aid, and report their jobs while attending school. I don't remember doing that, and I worked all during college....but that was a loooooong time ago.

But those are just numbers...nothing saying where that income came from, correct?

[Farfromgeneva]

Why can't Alabama eliminate football as a sport it offers, and then lease its stadium and logo to a professional team that is owned by the Alumni Association?

The team could pay the athletes enough to cover tuition, room & board, and other expenses plus whatever spending money they want - NIL's would factor in I am guessing. Football becomes a "side job" for the "student". I see no reason why Bama, Texas, ND, Georgia, etc...

The only hurdle I see is that for it to work, they all have to do it at once.

How do you justify admission of many of the kids under that construct?

My simple response - to WHOM do they have to justify their admissions?

USNews? Board of Trustees? Many stakeholders that would want to understand how they are actually students. Where would all the academic support resources be supplied to keep the kids eligible? Would a coach be able to lean on professors in this structure like Minnesota did for years?

I’ve thought about separating it legally as well but it really shines a light on the lack of “student” in student-athlete under that structure that seems like it would be equally or more complicated. Not to mention transfer pricing issues.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Why can't Alabama eliminate football as a sport it offers, and then lease its stadium and logo to a professional team that is owned by the Alumni Association?

The team could pay the athletes enough to cover tuition, room & board, and other expenses plus whatever spending money they want - NIL's would factor in I am guessing. Football becomes a "side job" for the "student". I see no reason why Bama, Texas, ND, Georgia, etc...

The only hurdle I see is that for it to work, they all have to do it at once.

What does Maryland, Rutgers and Virginia football do?

[Farfromgeneva]

I think the DOJ or feds can come in and demand any records they want if they want as it pertains to civil rights. A college caught not having it will have problems I can guarantee.

Colleges have complete records of, for example, summer jobs that students held?

And of course for calculating financial aid they’ll have record of student income.

Right....things that apply to ALL students will work. Good point here. They'll have that....assuming kids get aid, and report their jobs while attending school. I don't remember doing that, and I worked all during college....but that was a loooooong time ago.

But those are just numbers...nothing saying where that income came from, correct?

If I see a pool of football dudes making $xxx,xxx in their fafsa and related aid docs and then see the entire pool of students which is easy to stratify then as a civil rights investigator I’m going to dig for more info. Ties back to proportionality. That’s where it gets complicated. There’s a lot of record keeping that seem superfluous until that one time it’s needed or it costs tens of millions of dollars.

[Farfromgeneva]

Why can't Alabama eliminate football as a sport it offers, and then lease its stadium and logo to a professional team that is owned by the Alumni Association?

The team could pay the athletes enough to cover tuition, room & board, and other expenses plus whatever spending money they want - NIL's would factor in I am guessing. Football becomes a "side job" for the "student". I see no reason why Bama, Texas, ND, Georgia, etc...

The only hurdle I see is that for it to work, they all have to do it at once.

How do you justify admission of many of the kids under that construct?

My simple response - to WHOM do they have to justify their admissions?

I think my simple response, despite my other one, would be if we both had this thought, and it’s something I considered Pre NIL ruling, wouldn’t universities have tried it out by now and if it wasn’t more complicated than it seems to come up with?

[a fan]

If I see a pool of football dudes making $xxx,xxx in their fafsa and related aid docs and then see the entire pool of students which is easy to stratify then as a civil rights investigator I’m going to dig for more info. Ties back to proportionality. That’s where it gets complicated.

By "proportionality", do you mean: Title IX ?

[Farfromgeneva]

Yes that was my original point I think this still bleeds into title IX compliance I was never focused on the NCAA I was focused on the feds and wanting to see documentation. This somehow needs to be accounted for and that’s a nightmare.

[jersey shore lax]

interesting topic for sure, I bet that not a single person in Indianapolis that will spend one second worrying about lacrosse. This is 90% about Football money and 9.5% about basketball money and 0.5% about every other sport including lacrosse. we will have to wait for the power5 to do their thing and than deal with the fall out.

I can see a world where each sport has it own set up / league and everything becomes much more regional and much less travel to save money and then national governing bodies run championships IE USLacrosse runs the championships and NCAA goes away.

[44WeWantMore]

I think the DOJ or feds can come in and demand any records they want if they want as it pertains to civil rights. A college caught not having it will have problems I can guarantee.

Colleges have complete records of, for example, summer jobs that students held?

And of course for calculating financial aid they’ll have record of student income.

Right....things that apply to ALL students will work. Good point here. They'll have that....assuming kids get aid, and report their jobs while attending school. I don't remember doing that, and I worked all during college....but that was a loooooong time ago.

But those are just numbers...nothing saying where that income came from, correct?

If I see a pool of football dudes making $xxx,xxx in their fafsa and related aid docs and then see the entire pool of students which is easy to stratify then as a civil rights investigator I’m going to dig for more info. Ties back to proportionality. That’s where it gets complicated. There’s a lot of record kept that seem superfluous until that one time it’s needed or it costs tens of millions of dollars.

But under the assumption that the FBall and BBall players are well paid (as in have a job, not work-study), they do not need to complete a FAFSA, because they do not require Financial Aid.

[Essexfenwick]

Why do the players have to be students?

The big time programs could just have minor league teams using the schools name and facilities for the entertainment of the students… just like Starbucks and Chick-fil-A in the food court.

[Farfromgeneva]

I think the DOJ or feds can come in and demand any records they want if they want as it pertains to civil rights. A college caught not having it will have problems I can guarantee.

Colleges have complete records of, for example, summer jobs that students held?

And of course for calculating financial aid they’ll have record of student income.

Right....things that apply to ALL students will work. Good point here. They'll have that....assuming kids get aid, and report their jobs while attending school. I don't remember doing that, and I worked all during college....but that was a loooooong time ago.

But those are just numbers...nothing saying where that income came from, correct?

If I see a pool of football dudes making $xxx,xxx in their fafsa and related aid docs and then see the entire pool of students which is easy to stratify then as a civil rights investigator I’m going to dig for more info. Ties back to proportionality. That’s where it gets complicated. There’s a lot of record kept that seem superfluous until that one time it’s needed or it costs tens of millions of dollars.

But under the assumption that the FBall and BBall players are well paid (as in have a job, not work-study), they do not need to complete a FAFSA, because they do not require Financial Aid.

I’m not saying I have it all covered but the idea that the colleges will have no reason or obligation to maintain some kind of records on who’s getting what strikes me as crazy. There’s going to have to be some compliance. It defies logic that it’s going to be a free for all and there is never going to ever be any need or reason to maintain these records. For all the data and information colleges have to maintain I find it inconceivable they’ll ignore it altogether and not have staffs managing the record keeping.

My original comment was with regard to non revenue sports and even D2/3 FB/BB nickels and dimes that come in like a spallina. So forget D1 FB, if I see male athletes writ large come to a larger cum number by a significant amount than females I’m going to request more information.

Everyone is arguing that colleges won’t bother or feel any need to maintain records. Does this pass the smell test? Not to me.

[Farfromgeneva]

Why do the players have to be students?

The big time programs could just have minor league teams using the schools name and facilities for the entertainment of the students… just like Starbucks and Chick-fil-A in the food court.

That may be the other but then who cares when they get ripped from the tags they wear when they play. Living in the south you wouldn’t believe the jock sniffing by limited or non athletes around a player or program due to the jersey and belief they are part of the Same winstitution.

[a fan]

I’m not saying I have it all covered but the idea that the colleges will have no reason or obligation to maintain some kind of records on who’s getting what strikes me as crazy. There’s going to have to be some compliance.

The DoJ disagrees with you. It told the NCAA in no uncertain terms that they can't interfere in an Americans right to earn a living because of anti-trust implications.

You're coming at this from the view that the NCAA MUST regulate what their charges do. The DoJ is saying that they can't do that, particularly so when it comes to earning money.

It's why so many NCAA insiders are saying: time to burn it all down. The structure of the NCAA itself can't handle DoJ scrutiny.

[Farfromgeneva]

I’ve never once referenced the NCAA at all. You keep bringing that up. I’m talking federal civil rights compliance with title IX and colleges. I don’t know why you keep insisting I’ve referenced the NCAAs at all.

Again, nothing to do with the organization known as the NCAA. It’s federal civil rights law. Far as I’m concerned the NCAA is already dead they just don’t know it yet. That wouldn’t relieve colleges of their obligations under title IX.

[Farfromgeneva]

Title IX has played a large role in females getting more involved in the cheerleading world, their[who?] goal has been to see an increase in females’ participation in athletics, so the main focus was put on the gender equality of school athletics.[28] Athletic equality requirements that schools must meet were made, the requirements were set by the U.S. Department of Education Office of Civil Rights and to meet the requirements, schools must pass at least one of three tests measuring gender equality among athletics the school offers.[29] These tests consist of proportional numbers of males and females participating, whether or not the school is making an effort to increase the number of the unrepresented sex, or if the school has a certain history of one specific sex dominating numbers in a sport, the school is showing an effort to expand the program to the other sex.[29][/b] Although Title IX has increased the participation of female students, there is a struggle for professional females as there has been a decrease in opportunities and females’ role in coaching has majorly decreased while males have gained a larger role in directing athletics, which is still a struggle for women today.[28] Also, the legislation had impacts on aspects other than athletes. The increased exposure of female sports led to increased dominance by males of the governance of female athletics. For example, the male-dominated NCAA, which had been content to let the female-dominated AIAW run female championships, decided to offer female championships, leading to the eventual demise of the AIAW.[30] The National Collegiate Athletic Association later tried to claim that Congress had not intended to include athletics under Title IX's coverage, but the record lacks any sustained discussion of the matter.[31]

Advocates of Title IX's current interpretation cite increases in female athletic participation, and attribute those increases to Title IX.[32][33][34] One study, completed in 2006, pointed to a large increase in the number of women participating in athletics at both the high school and college level. The number of women in high school sports had increased by a factor of nine, while the number of women in college sports had increased by more than 450%.[35] A 2008 study of intercollegiate athletics showed that women's collegiate sports have grown to 9,101 teams, or 8.65 per school. The five most frequently offered college sports for women are in order: (1) Basketball, 98.8% of schools have a team; (2) Volleyball, 95.7%; (3) Soccer, 92.0%; (4) Cross Country; 90.8%, and (5) Softball; 89.2%.[36] The lowest rank for female sports teams is bowling. The exact percentage is not known, however there are only around 600 students on women's bowling teams in all three divisions in the NCAA. [37]

At the same time, many contend that the current interpretation of Title IX by the Office for Civil Rights (OCR) has resulted in the dismantling of men's programs, despite strong participation in those sports.[38] For example, though interest in the sport of wrestling has consistently increased at the high school level since 1990,[39] scores of colleges have dropped their wrestling programs during that same period.[40][41] The OCR's three-prong test for compliance with Title IX often is cited as the reason for these cuts.[41][42] Wrestling historically was the most frequently dropped sport,[42] but other men's sports later overtook the lead, such that according to the NCAA, the most-dropped men's sports between 1987 and 2002 were as follows: Cross country (183), indoor track (180), golf (178), tennis (171), rowing (132), outdoor track (126), swimming (125) and wrestling (121).[40] Additionally, eight NCAA sports—all men's sports—were sponsored by fewer Division I schools in 2020 than in 1990, despite the D-I membership having increased by nearly 60 schools during that period.[43]

Some believe that the increase in athletic opportunity for girls in high school has come at the expense of boys' athletics. For example, the College Sports Council has stated, "Nationwide, there are currently 1.3 million more boys participating in high school sports than girls. Using a gender quota to enforce Title IX in high school sports would put those young athletes at risk of losing their opportunity to play."[44] High school participation rates from the National Federation of High School associations report that in 2010–11, there were 4,494,406 boys and 3,173,549 girls participating in high school athletics.[45]

There have been different interpretations regarding Title IX's application to high school athletics. The American Sports Council sued the Department of Education in 2011 seeking a declaratory judgment that its policy interpreting Title IX's requirement for equity in participation opportunities is limited to colleges and universities.[46] The American Sports Council argued that "The three-part test and its encouragement of quotas, has no relevance to high schools or high-school sports, and no federal regulation or interpretation has ever said that high schools must abide by the three-part test".[44] On the other hand, the Department of Education insists that Title IX is a "valuable tool" for ensuring a level playing field for all students" and "plays a critical role in ensuring a fundamental level of fairness in America's schools and universities".[46]

Between 1981 and 1999, university athletic departments cut 171 men's wrestling teams, 84 men's tennis teams, 56 men's gymnastics teams, 27 men's track teams, and 25 men's swimming teams.[47] While some teams—both men's and women's—have been eliminated in the Title IX era, both genders have seen a net increase in the number of athletic teams over that same period.[47][48] When total enrollment (which had likewise increased) is controlled for however, only women had an increase in participation.[49]

Because teams vary widely in size, it is more appropriate to compare the number of total participation opportunities. Additionally, the total number of college participation opportunities has increased for both sexes in the Title IX era, though solely for women when increased enrollment is accounted for, as men's participation remained static relative to university enrollment, and men's opportunities outnumber women's by a wide margin.[50]

The Women's Sports Foundation reported in a 2007 study of athletic opportunities at NCAA institutions that over 150,000 female athletic opportunities would need to be added to reach participation levels proportional to the female undergraduate population.[51] The same study found that men's athletics also receives the lion's share of athletic department budgets for operating expenses, recruiting, scholarships, and coaches salaries.[48]

[a fan]

I’ve never once referenced the NCAA at all. You keep bringing that up. I’m talking federal civil rights compliance with title IX and colleges. I don’t know why you keep insisting I’ve referenced the NCAAs at all.

My mistake, I assumed that's what you meant when you wrote "There’s going to have to be some compliance." I thought you meant here that the NCAA would handle "compliance". And I also assumed you meant "compliance with agreed upon rules between schools". A reasonable assumption.

It seems you mean "compliance with Title IX" laws.

Your view is that what a student earns from a job ropes Title IX laws in?

[Farfromgeneva]

I’ve never once referenced the NCAA at all. You keep bringing that up. I’m talking federal civil rights compliance with title IX and colleges. I don’t know why you keep insisting I’ve referenced the NCAAs at all.

My mistake, I assumed that's what you meant when you wrote "There’s going to have to be some compliance." I thought you meant here that the NCAA would handle "compliance". And I also assumed you meant "compliance with agreed upon rules between schools". A reasonable assumption.

It seems you mean "compliance with Title IX" laws.

Your view is that what a student earns from a job ropes Title IX laws in?

Yes realize the thread is NcAA reorg which to me is “give up all influence over any and all colleges that participate in major athletics with revenues attached” but I imagine title IX compliance under NIL will be worse than anything the NCAA, a sad sack SRO that’s only served to keep congress and other authorities away from college presidents while they milked this cow using its field hands excessively for 40yrs. Now they don’t have the air cover of that with respect to “amateurism” and consequently it serves no value or purpose. The whole idea of student athletes is a joke, star basketball players at SUNY Binghamton don’t even go to classes. Football player at UGA are barley integrated in campus at all with separate housing etc. Their not part of the actual campus or student experience except when their performing in game day.

I think it can if it’s clear that the compensation is tied directly to the “students” athletic activities rather than market rate for other services performed then yes compensation for playing a sport while still being nominally a student will require record keeping for title IX. There’s nothing in the NIL ruling that supercedes title IX.

[MDlaxfan76]

Interesting discussion of Title IX implications. Thanks.

Couple of questions:

Do we think the NCAA as an org or the college Presidents it represents are thinking about Title IX as they consider splitting up or creating special divisions?

Do we think Title IX is actually being followed by any, most, or few of the Power 5 schools now? Any of these schools paying women coaches remotely what they're paying football coaches? Are the women Bball coaches at these institutions making what the men's coaches are? Does this include no -school compensation? endorsements, camps, etc?

[Essexfenwick]

Why do the players have to be students?

The big time programs could just have minor league teams using the schools name and facilities for the entertainment of the students… just like Starbucks and Chick-fil-A in the food court.

That may be the other but then who cares when they get ripped from the tags they wear when they play. Living in the south you wouldn’t believe the jock sniffing by limited or non athletes around a player or program due to the jersey and belief they are part of the Same winstitution.

It would take title IX completely off the table.