January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

[MDlaxfan76]

National Archives dropped a big one

https://www.americanoversight.org/ameri ... p-electors

"American Oversight has obtained copies of phony electoral vote certificates from seven states that were submitted to Congress as part of the failed attempt to overturn the results of the 2020 election."

amazing

Agreed; amazing, but not surprising. Talk about fraudulent voting.

here come the "free speech" arguments...

[Typical Lax Dad]

National Archives dropped a big one

https://www.americanoversight.org/ameri ... p-electors

"American Oversight has obtained copies of phony electoral vote certificates from seven states that were submitted to Congress as part of the failed attempt to overturn the results of the 2020 election."

amazing

Agreed; amazing, but not surprising. Talk about fraudulent voting.

here come the "free speech" arguments...

I am not sure how anyone can defend stuff like this but I am sure they will.

[MDlaxfan76]

National Archives dropped a big one

https://www.americanoversight.org/ameri ... p-electors

"American Oversight has obtained copies of phony electoral vote certificates from seven states that were submitted to Congress as part of the failed attempt to overturn the results of the 2020 election."

amazing

Agreed; amazing, but not surprising. Talk about fraudulent voting.

here come the "free speech" arguments...

I am not sure how anyone can defend stuff like this but I am sure they will.

It will be very interesting to see the communications coordinating these submissions. At least 5 of the states sent in docs using the same base template language, font, etc...just the details modified by state. Love to see the emails and phone records, testimony on the discussions involving these. Who instructed them, under what authority, etc...

Also want the testimony of the handful of GOP electors who refused to go along with the fraud and were replaced by others who signed in their stead.

[Typical Lax Dad]

National Archives dropped a big one

https://www.americanoversight.org/ameri ... p-electors

"American Oversight has obtained copies of phony electoral vote certificates from seven states that were submitted to Congress as part of the failed attempt to overturn the results of the 2020 election."

amazing

Agreed; amazing, but not surprising. Talk about fraudulent voting.

here come the "free speech" arguments...

I am not sure how anyone can defend stuff like this but I am sure they will.

It will be very interesting to see the communications coordinating these submissions. At least 5 of the states sent in docs using the same base template language, font, etc...just the details modified by state. Love to see the emails and phone records, testimony on the discussions involving these. Who instructed them, under what authority, etc...

Also want the testimony of the handful of GOP electors who refused to go along with the fraud and were replaced by others who signed in their stead.

This story is huge in the history of this country and not many people are paying attention to it. I recall a Republican politician saying Republicans don’t care about democracy. He wasn’t lying.

[SCLaxAttack]

National Archives dropped a big one

https://www.americanoversight.org/ameri ... p-electors

"American Oversight has obtained copies of phony electoral vote certificates from seven states that were submitted to Congress as part of the failed attempt to overturn the results of the 2020 election."

amazing

Agreed; amazing, but not surprising. Talk about fraudulent voting.

here come the "free speech" arguments...

I am not sure how anyone can defend stuff like this but I am sure they will.

It will be very interesting to see the communications coordinating these submissions. At least 5 of the states sent in docs using the same base template language, font, etc...just the details modified by state. Love to see the emails and phone records, testimony on the discussions involving these. Who instructed them, under what authority, etc...

Also want the testimony of the handful of GOP electors who refused to go along with the fraud and were replaced by others who signed in their stead.

This story is huge in the history of this country and not many people are paying attention to it. I recall a Republican politician saying Republicans don’t care about democracy. He wasn’t lying.

Amazing isn't the right adjective. Disgusting is.

Hopefully this is the hole in the dyke that finally causes Insurrection Dam to burst.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... -democracy

He wasn’t lying.

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy ... -13-charts

[MDlaxfan76]

We've seen the evidence of this on these threads, both in various anti-democracy posts and in ham-handed explanations that "we aren't a democracy".

I think there's a coming to grips with the reality that many Americans want rule by the minority, and not simply that recognition by Dems...also quite explicitly now by an appalling % of the GOP.

At every level, that segment wants minority rule, with only the patina of "democracy". Even to the point of ignoring or overruling elections.

Whatever it takes.

Unfortunately, I don't think the "dam will break" with the revelation that the Trumpist conspiracy went this far, got this close.

[kramerica.inc]

I think there's a coming to grips with the reality that many Americans want rule by the minority, and not simply that recognition by Dems...also quite explicitly now by an appalling % of the GOP.
At every level, that segment wants minority rule, with only the patina of "democracy". Even to the point of ignoring or overruling elections.

Of course republicans want minority rule. They ARE the minority by definition.

But the split isn't that drastic. Around here, the majority of posters are left leaning. And loud. They try to make it sound like the vast majority in the country agrees with their thinking and current direction of things. That they are "the norm," and that the dissenters are a small minority.

But remember, the split in the last election with one of the most divisive presidents EVER was 51% to 47%. There are simply far LESS people that agree with the current thinking in this country than Biden, that 51%, and the prolific posters here, want to let on.

[MDlaxfan76]

I think there's a coming to grips with the reality that many Americans want rule by the minority, and not simply that recognition by Dems...also quite explicitly now by an appalling % of the GOP.
At every level, that segment wants minority rule, with only the patina of "democracy". Even to the point of ignoring or overruling elections.

Of course republicans want minority rule. They ARE the minority by definition.

But the split isn't that drastic. Around here, the majority of posters are left leaning. And loud. They try to make it sound like the vast majority in the country agrees with their thinking and current direction of things. That they are "the norm," and that the dissenters are a small minority.

But remember, the split in the last election with one of the most divisive presidents EVER was 51% to 47%. There are simply far LESS people that agree with the current thinking in this country than Biden, that 51%, and the prolific posters here, want to let on.

Whoa, what do you mean "by definition"????

[kramerica.inc]

I think there's a coming to grips with the reality that many Americans want rule by the minority, and not simply that recognition by Dems...also quite explicitly now by an appalling % of the GOP.
At every level, that segment wants minority rule, with only the patina of "democracy". Even to the point of ignoring or overruling elections.

Of course republicans want minority rule. They ARE the minority by definition.

But the split isn't that drastic. Around here, the majority of posters are left leaning. And loud. They try to make it sound like the vast majority in the country agrees with their thinking and current direction of things. That they are "the norm," and that the dissenters are a small minority.

But remember, the split in the last election with one of the most divisive presidents EVER was 51% to 47%. There are simply far LESS people that agree with the current thinking in this country than Biden, that 51%, and the prolific posters here, want to let on.

Whoa, what do you mean "by definition"????

Less than 50% in the last election.

[MDlaxfan76]

I think there's a coming to grips with the reality that many Americans want rule by the minority, and not simply that recognition by Dems...also quite explicitly now by an appalling % of the GOP.
At every level, that segment wants minority rule, with only the patina of "democracy". Even to the point of ignoring or overruling elections.

Of course republicans want minority rule. They ARE the minority by definition.

But the split isn't that drastic. Around here, the majority of posters are left leaning. And loud. They try to make it sound like the vast majority in the country agrees with their thinking and current direction of things. That they are "the norm," and that the dissenters are a small minority.

But remember, the split in the last election with one of the most divisive presidents EVER was 51% to 47%. There are simply far LESS people that agree with the current thinking in this country than Biden, that 51%, and the prolific posters here, want to let on.

Whoa, what do you mean "by definition"????

Less than 50% in the last election.

well, yeah, at least in the last Presidential election the GOP lost by 7 million votes, "won" in 2016 despite losing by 2.9 million votes, but won by 3 million votes in 2004, "won" despite losing by .5 million in 2000, won by 7 million '88, won by 17 million in '84, won by 8 million in '80, won by 18 million in '72, won by 1 million in '68.

Currently there are more registered R's than D's.

So, why would the GOP "by definition" be a minority party?
Why would the GOP want minority rule?

Never wanted that historically. Used to want to win more votes...

Hmmm...

[a fan]

But the split isn't that drastic. Around here, the majority of posters are left leaning. And loud. They try to make it sound like the vast majority in the country agrees with their thinking and current direction of things. That they are "the norm," and that the dissenters are a small minority.

We're not left leaning. We're to the left of YOU, which puts us in the center. And that's only on SOME issues.

On many issues, like taxation and spending? I'm several steps to the right of you.

[youthathletics]

Looking like Trump must have occupied the Parliament house in Bulgaria, since people tried to breach the place. Amazing, what a stout staff of police can prevent.....imagine that. I bet the protestors never even organized prior.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/an ... story.html

[get it to x]

Looking like Trump must have occupied the Parliament house in Bulgaria, since people tried to breach the place. Amazing, what a stout staff of police can prevent.....imagine that. I bet the protestors never even organized prior.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/an ... story.html

A sane look at 1/6 from Marco Rubio:

https://citizenfreepress.com/breaking/s ... rco-rubio/

[MDlaxfan76]

Looking like Trump must have occupied the Parliament house in Bulgaria, since people tried to breach the place. Amazing, what a stout staff of police can prevent.....imagine that. I bet the protestors never even organized prior.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/an ... story.html

A sane look at 1/6 from Marco Rubio:

https://citizenfreepress.com/breaking/s ... rco-rubio/

That's "sane" or immensely disingenuous?

Of course that whack job wasn't going to overthrow anything.
But the conspiracy to do so was very real and the insurrection at the Capitol was just one, very ugly piece.

[kramerica.inc]

But the split isn't that drastic. Around here, the majority of posters are left leaning. And loud. They try to make it sound like the vast majority in the country agrees with their thinking and current direction of things. That they are "the norm," and that the dissenters are a small minority.

We're not left leaning. We're to the left of YOU, which puts us in the center. And that's only on SOME issues.

On many issues, like taxation and spending? I'm several steps to the right of you.

No. Few centrics around here, aFAn.
You and I are more centric and free-thinking than most. It's all about the "who takes it too personally" test. We can actually converse with those who think differently than us and dont take it personally. Many on the fringes here cannot. When it comes to political discussion, a slight on their thoughts is a slight on them. It's their way or the highway.

[get it to x]

Looking like Trump must have occupied the Parliament house in Bulgaria, since people tried to breach the place. Amazing, what a stout staff of police can prevent.....imagine that. I bet the protestors never even organized prior.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/an ... story.html

A sane look at 1/6 from Marco Rubio:

https://citizenfreepress.com/breaking/s ... rco-rubio/

That's "sane" or immensely disingenuous?

Of course that whack job wasn't going to overthrow anything.
But the conspiracy to do so was very real and the insurrection at the Capitol was just one, very ugly piece.

You should just stop calling it an insurrection. Nobody has been charged with insurrection or sedition. How about "Mostly peaceful protest" as less than a few percent of the total rally attendees went over to the Capitol and only a few percent of those people committed a violent act. Your label is more disingenuous than anything Senator Rubio stated. Where is your outrage over people charged with trespassing being held without bail for over a year? You're fine with it because it is meant to intimidate Trump supporters. Spare us your selective outrage.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Looking like Trump must have occupied the Parliament house in Bulgaria, since people tried to breach the place. Amazing, what a stout staff of police can prevent.....imagine that. I bet the protestors never even organized prior.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/an ... story.html

A sane look at 1/6 from Marco Rubio:

https://citizenfreepress.com/breaking/s ... rco-rubio/

That's "sane" or immensely disingenuous?

Of course that whack job wasn't going to overthrow anything.
But the conspiracy to do so was very real and the insurrection at the Capitol was just one, very ugly piece.

You should just stop calling it an insurrection. Nobody has been charged with insurrection or sedition. How about "Mostly peaceful protest" as less than a few percent of the total rally attendees went over to the Capitol and only a few percent of those people committed a violent act. Your label is more disingenuous than anything Senator Rubio stated. Where is your outrage over people charged with trespassing being held without bail for over a year? You're fine with it because it is meant to intimidate Trump supporters. Spare us your selective outrage.

The folks in Guantanamo Bay?

[Kismet]

Looking like Trump must have occupied the Parliament house in Bulgaria, since people tried to breach the place. Amazing, what a stout staff of police can prevent.....imagine that. I bet the protestors never even organized prior.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/an ... story.html

A sane look at 1/6 from Marco Rubio:

https://citizenfreepress.com/breaking/s ... rco-rubio/

That's "sane" or immensely disingenuous?

Of course that whack job wasn't going to overthrow anything.
But the conspiracy to do so was very real and the insurrection at the Capitol was just one, very ugly piece.

You should just stop calling it an insurrection. Nobody has been charged with insurrection or sedition. How about "Mostly peaceful protest" as less than a few percent of the total rally attendees went over to the Capitol and only a few percent of those people committed a violent act. Your label is more disingenuous than anything Senator Rubio stated. Where is your outrage over people charged with trespassing being held without bail for over a year? You're fine with it because it is meant to intimidate Trump supporters. Spare us your selective outrage.

The folks in Guantanamo Bay?

Here's a summary of all cases so far pretrial detention is well below the average
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... tatus.html

Nobody has been charged YET for insurrection or sedition - there could be superseding indictments but those charges are a pretty high bar.
More than a few conspiracy charges so far and more likely - as Yogi said "It ain't over until its over" and think that applies here.

UPDATE Thursday PM - Stewart Rhodes has been indicted for *SEDITIOUS CONSPIRACY* - He and other Oath Keepers included in the indictment.

[MDlaxfan76]

Looking like Trump must have occupied the Parliament house in Bulgaria, since people tried to breach the place. Amazing, what a stout staff of police can prevent.....imagine that. I bet the protestors never even organized prior.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/an ... story.html

A sane look at 1/6 from Marco Rubio:

https://citizenfreepress.com/breaking/s ... rco-rubio/

That's "sane" or immensely disingenuous?

Of course that whack job wasn't going to overthrow anything.
But the conspiracy to do so was very real and the insurrection at the Capitol was just one, very ugly piece.

You should just stop calling it an insurrection. Nobody has been charged with insurrection or sedition. How about "Mostly peaceful protest" as less than a few percent of the total rally attendees went over to the Capitol and only a few percent of those people committed a violent act. Your label is more disingenuous than anything Senator Rubio stated. Where is your outrage over people charged with trespassing being held without bail for over a year? You're fine with it because it is meant to intimidate Trump supporters. Spare us your selective outrage.

It was definitely an insurrection, an attempt at the overthrow of the election. It was very, very violent and destructive and the intent of the vanguard was very, very clear. And they were enabled by the weight of the angry mob behind them. It is, however, true that most of the crowd did not directly engage in the violence or the destruction. Some, like my brother-in-law, profess to have not even witnessed any of it as he was in the rear, though he eventually was on the Capitol steps. People like him have not been arrested, though he was indeed trespassing. It's illegal to be where he was without permission. But anyone entering through broken windows and doors into the building itself, and identified, is likely to be charged with at least trespass. If it's provable that they were violent or destructive, charges go up...but some plea out and charges are reduced in those cases as part of the plea agreement.

It's clear that some in the vanguard were organized and had intended this action in advance. It is very likely that they coordinated not only among themselves but also with others beyond the direct action at the Capitol. Stay tuned for those prosecutions. Those folks will do serious time.

While the violent outburst drew the most attention, understandably, the far more serious perpetrators of the attempted coup have yet to be charged, those engaged in the falsehoods and engineering of a false path to ignore the actual results, all in an effort to install Trump in a second term. Again, stay tuned. Those cases are far more complicated.

I'm not aware of any perps held without bail over a year charged merely with trespass. Nope, anyone who didn't get bail was charged with far more serious crimes and have indicated no remorse and have been considered an ongoing danger by a judge as a result.

Lots and lots of low level perps have plead out, shown remorse, and have been released. And as their trials proceeded, many were very clear that they believed they had been misled by Trump and others into believing that what they were doing was justified, because of the Big Lie. Remorseful.

But the much more serious perps' trials are coming. Oath Keepers, Proud Boys etc.

But these, too, really aren't the most serious perpetrators, pretty much all of whom have not yet been charged, other than with obstruction.

They need to be.