January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

[old salt]

Minority voters disproportionately lack ID. Nationally, up to 25% of African-American citizens of voting age lack government-issued photo ID, compared to only 8% of whites.6
States exclude forms of ID in a discriminatory manner. Texas allows concealed weapons permits for voting, but does not accept student ID cards. Until its voter ID law was struck down, North Carolina prohibited public assistance IDs and state employee ID cards, which are disproportionately held by Black voters. And until recently, Wisconsin permitted active duty military ID cards, but prohibited Veterans Affairs ID cards for voting.
Voter ID laws are enforced in a discriminatory manner. A Caltech/MIT study found that minority voters are more frequently questioned about ID than are white voters.7

That's only fair. minority citizens should not have to undergo the REAL ID torture. It's too hard.

[old salt]

Doing the math : 2018 - 150 = 1868 was our last legit election. Okie Dokie. We're a horrible country.
What good was all that REAL ID torture ? Just to pick up our packages at the UPS/FEDEX/Amazon storefronts ?
Never let a good crisis go unexploited.

Aaaaand you're back to telling me why we should vote in person-only, ID in hand.

You just can't avoid it. All roads lead to it....it's so fun to watch your complaints lead you to the same exact conclusion, every time.

Because if you can pick up a FedEx package at their storefront, as you're mocking here? SURELY you can get off your lazy Republican duffs and show up at a Voting Booth, right?

Yet you CHOOSE not to make in person only voting a law.

It's like listening to a teenager whine to dad about not having money...and the Dad simply says "get a job, problem solved".

Then the teenager REFUSES to get a job...and keeps whining about not having money.

The solution to your fake complaint is right there for ya, OS. You don't want to solve the problem.

It's right up there with immigration reform. Vote for Trump again, and THIS time he'll fix immigration, right?

There are ways to get an absentee ballot without presenting a photo ID in person.
https://www.vote.org/voter-id-laws/

[Typical Lax Dad]

Doing the math : 2018 - 150 = 1868 was our last legit election. Okie Dokie. We're a horrible country.
What good was all that REAL ID torture ? Just to pick up our packages at the UPS/FEDEX/Amazon storefronts ?
Never let a good crisis go unexploited.

Aaaaand you're back to telling me why we should vote in person-only, ID in hand.

You just can't avoid it. All roads lead to it....it's so fun to watch your complaints lead you to the same exact conclusion, every time.

Because if you can pick up a FedEx package at their storefront, as you're mocking here? SURELY you can get off your lazy Republican duffs and show up at a Voting Booth, right?

Yet you CHOOSE not to make in person only voting a law.

It's like listening to a teenager whine to dad about not having money...and the Dad simply says "get a job, problem solved".

Then the teenager REFUSES to get a job...and keeps whining about not having money.

The solution to your fake complaint is right there for ya, OS. You don't want to solve the problem.

It's right up there with immigration reform. Vote for Trump again, and THIS time he'll fix immigration, right?

There are ways to get an absentee ballot without presenting a photo ID in person.
https://www.vote.org/voter-id-laws/

Rules are all over the map. Guess where it’s generally harder…..

[Typical Lax Dad]

Minority voters disproportionately lack ID. Nationally, up to 25% of African-American citizens of voting age lack government-issued photo ID, compared to only 8% of whites.6
States exclude forms of ID in a discriminatory manner. Texas allows concealed weapons permits for voting, but does not accept student ID cards. Until its voter ID law was struck down, North Carolina prohibited public assistance IDs and state employee ID cards, which are disproportionately held by Black voters. And until recently, Wisconsin permitted active duty military ID cards, but prohibited Veterans Affairs ID cards for voting.
Voter ID laws are enforced in a discriminatory manner. A Caltech/MIT study found that minority voters are more frequently questioned about ID than are white voters.7

That's only fair. minority citizens should not have to undergo the REAL ID torture. It's too hard.

MAGA…..Remember Ferguson!!

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/ ... their-fair

[cradleandshoot]

Minority voters disproportionately lack ID. Nationally, up to 25% of African-American citizens of voting age lack government-issued photo ID, compared to only 8% of whites.6
States exclude forms of ID in a discriminatory manner. Texas allows concealed weapons permits for voting, but does not accept student ID cards. Until its voter ID law was struck down, North Carolina prohibited public assistance IDs and state employee ID cards, which are disproportionately held by Black voters. And until recently, Wisconsin permitted active duty military ID cards, but prohibited Veterans Affairs ID cards for voting.
Voter ID laws are enforced in a discriminatory manner. A Caltech/MIT study found that minority voters are more frequently questioned about ID than are white voters.7

That's only fair. minority citizens should not have to undergo the REAL ID torture. It's too hard.

MAGA…..Remember Ferguson!!

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/ ... their-fair

Yet a convicted felon can't legally own a firearm. Maybe we can relax that law as well. Then all those career felons won't have to be bothered buying illegal weapons on the street. Hell they can even vote for the candidates that will make that happen.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/pa ... ar-AASyubY

You comfy there TLD with this mother effing rat baztard being able to vote? He painted his illegal weapon to look like a toy no less. I'm sure that deception could cause a police officer to hesitate just long enough for this POS to shoot the officer. I have no problem with some convicted felons being allowed to vote. That should be done on a case by case basis taking into account the individual and their criminal record. Violent felons IMO should never be allowed to cast a legal vote.

[Kismet]

Lying ? ....the basis for stop the steal is election fraud in key swing states where the election rules were changed due to the covid emerg -- those are the states to which the Congress members objected.

And now we've arrived, again, at Kismet's question----that you're avoiding:

If the Republicans in those key swing States claim the ballots in those States were illegitimate, explain why the Republican "winners" in those States took their seats, without hesitation?

Which members of Congress objected to certifying the electoral votes from their home state ?

Still avoiding the question.....this time pretending that you don't understand the question. Neat-o.

Questions are hard, I'm not unsympathetic.

Show us where I said the election was "stolen" -- you are demanding that I defend something I did not say.

My objection is to making permanent the last minute temporary covid emergency rules used in 2020.
imho -- they increase the opportunity for fraud, undermined public confidence in the outcome & enabled a big lie like stop the steal;

I prefer reverting to the 2018 rules. Were results from 2018 & before illegitimate ?
I do not reply to questions that are not applicable & a diversion.

But why, if there's no actual basis to not have public confidence other than the LIE from those upset they lost? Remember, it's a LIE. Not fraud.

The issue isn't that there was any fraud, nor any actual "opportunity for fraud" (there isn't, that too is a LIE), the issue was that they made it easier to cast a legitimate, traceable, verifiable vote from legitimate voters...that's the only actual issue.

Everything else is made up by those upset to have lost and that BS, the LIE, is further being used by those whose only interest is power and who think they can't win if all legitimate voters vote. It's a very old story.

And you're indeed also "lying" if you claim that what GOP legislatures are doing is just "reverting to the 2018 rules."...nope, they've making it harder to vote, wherever they can, than in 2018. Pretty sure you know that.

Want to make elections even more secure than what GOP officials said was the most secure US election ever held? Make sure all voting has a paper trail, all voting is traceable. Have large penalties for intentional fraud.

Want to increase "public confidence"?
Also make a law against election fraud claims that are known to be slanderous, known to be untrue.
Punish the liars.

Most of the new voter laws deal with identification. They may be a roll back some of 2020's situational rules, again unauthorized by the Constitution. However, Georgia will have ballot drop boxes again. Now, if you're going to throw out minorities not being able to get an I.D., well that's just plain insulting to them. Stop being so paternal with everyone else's children.

As to your last point, having the government jail a citizen for speech doesn't exactly instill "public confidence". Maybe you meant "instill fear of my own government".

The US Constitution does not make any mention of voting procedures and thus those rules are delegated to the individual states.

Several constitutional amendments (the Fifteenth, Nineteenth, and Twenty-sixth specifically) require that voting rights of U.S. citizens cannot be abridged on account of race, color, previous condition of servitude, sex, or age (18 and older) as the Constitution as originally written did not establish any such rights.

https://constitutioncenter.org/interact ... lauses/750

No idea where you get the idea that changes implemented by the states are somehow unconstitutional. SCOTUS ruled in February against challenges to these laws in five states challenged by GOP.

[cradleandshoot]

Lying ? ....the basis for stop the steal is election fraud in key swing states where the election rules were changed due to the covid emerg -- those are the states to which the Congress members objected.

And now we've arrived, again, at Kismet's question----that you're avoiding:

If the Republicans in those key swing States claim the ballots in those States were illegitimate, explain why the Republican "winners" in those States took their seats, without hesitation?

Which members of Congress objected to certifying the electoral votes from their home state ?

Still avoiding the question.....this time pretending that you don't understand the question. Neat-o.

Questions are hard, I'm not unsympathetic.

Show us where I said the election was "stolen" -- you are demanding that I defend something I did not say.

My objection is to making permanent the last minute temporary covid emergency rules used in 2020.
imho -- they increase the opportunity for fraud, undermined public confidence in the outcome & enabled a big lie like stop the steal;

I prefer reverting to the 2018 rules. Were results from 2018 & before illegitimate ?
I do not reply to questions that are not applicable & a diversion.

But why, if there's no actual basis to not have public confidence other than the LIE from those upset they lost? Remember, it's a LIE. Not fraud.

The issue isn't that there was any fraud, nor any actual "opportunity for fraud" (there isn't, that too is a LIE), the issue was that they made it easier to cast a legitimate, traceable, verifiable vote from legitimate voters...that's the only actual issue.

Everything else is made up by those upset to have lost and that BS, the LIE, is further being used by those whose only interest is power and who think they can't win if all legitimate voters vote. It's a very old story.

And you're indeed also "lying" if you claim that what GOP legislatures are doing is just "reverting to the 2018 rules."...nope, they've making it harder to vote, wherever they can, than in 2018. Pretty sure you know that.

Want to make elections even more secure than what GOP officials said was the most secure US election ever held? Make sure all voting has a paper trail, all voting is traceable. Have large penalties for intentional fraud.

Want to increase "public confidence"?
Also make a law against election fraud claims that are known to be slanderous, known to be untrue.
Punish the liars.

Most of the new voter laws deal with identification. They may be a roll back some of 2020's situational rules, again unauthorized by the Constitution. However, Georgia will have ballot drop boxes again. Now, if you're going to throw out minorities not being able to get an I.D., well that's just plain insulting to them. Stop being so paternal with everyone else's children.

As to your last point, having the government jail a citizen for speech doesn't exactly instill "public confidence". Maybe you meant "instill fear of my own government".

The US Constitution does not make any mention of voting procedures and thus those rules are delegated to the individual states.

Several constitutional amendments (the Fifteenth, Nineteenth, and Twenty-sixth specifically) require that voting rights of U.S. citizens cannot be abridged on account of race, color, previous condition of servitude, sex, or age (18 and older) as the Constitution as originally written did not establish any such rights.

https://constitutioncenter.org/interact ... lauses/750

No idea where you get the idea that changes implemented by the states are somehow unconstitutional. SCOTUS ruled in February against challenges to these laws in five states challenged by GOP.

None of the abridgements you mention say anything about convicted felons, especially violent felons with a long history of violent crime. Common sense and good judgement would say that concerning the vast majority of career violent felons that they lose forever the right to vote. They have a consolation prize, finding and purchasing an illegal firearm is still a piece of cake.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Minority voters disproportionately lack ID. Nationally, up to 25% of African-American citizens of voting age lack government-issued photo ID, compared to only 8% of whites.6
States exclude forms of ID in a discriminatory manner. Texas allows concealed weapons permits for voting, but does not accept student ID cards. Until its voter ID law was struck down, North Carolina prohibited public assistance IDs and state employee ID cards, which are disproportionately held by Black voters. And until recently, Wisconsin permitted active duty military ID cards, but prohibited Veterans Affairs ID cards for voting.
Voter ID laws are enforced in a discriminatory manner. A Caltech/MIT study found that minority voters are more frequently questioned about ID than are white voters.7

That's only fair. minority citizens should not have to undergo the REAL ID torture. It's too hard.

MAGA…..Remember Ferguson!!

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/ ... their-fair

Yet a convicted felon can't legally own a firearm. Maybe we can relax that law as well. Then all those career felons won't have to be bothered buying illegal weapons on the street. Hell they can even vote for the candidates that will make that happen.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/pa ... ar-AASyubY

You comfy there TLD with this mother effing rat baztard being able to vote? He painted his illegal weapon to look like a toy no less. I'm sure that deception could cause a police officer to hesitate just long enough for this POS to shoot the officer. I have no problem with some convicted felons being allowed to vote. That should be done on a case by case basis taking into account the individual and their criminal record. Violent felons IMO should never be allowed to cast a legal vote.

why so angry?

[Kismet]

Lying ? ....the basis for stop the steal is election fraud in key swing states where the election rules were changed due to the covid emerg -- those are the states to which the Congress members objected.

And now we've arrived, again, at Kismet's question----that you're avoiding:

If the Republicans in those key swing States claim the ballots in those States were illegitimate, explain why the Republican "winners" in those States took their seats, without hesitation?

Which members of Congress objected to certifying the electoral votes from their home state ?

Still avoiding the question.....this time pretending that you don't understand the question. Neat-o.

Questions are hard, I'm not unsympathetic.

Show us where I said the election was "stolen" -- you are demanding that I defend something I did not say.

My objection is to making permanent the last minute temporary covid emergency rules used in 2020.
imho -- they increase the opportunity for fraud, undermined public confidence in the outcome & enabled a big lie like stop the steal;

I prefer reverting to the 2018 rules. Were results from 2018 & before illegitimate ?
I do not reply to questions that are not applicable & a diversion.

But why, if there's no actual basis to not have public confidence other than the LIE from those upset they lost? Remember, it's a LIE. Not fraud.

The issue isn't that there was any fraud, nor any actual "opportunity for fraud" (there isn't, that too is a LIE), the issue was that they made it easier to cast a legitimate, traceable, verifiable vote from legitimate voters...that's the only actual issue.

Everything else is made up by those upset to have lost and that BS, the LIE, is further being used by those whose only interest is power and who think they can't win if all legitimate voters vote. It's a very old story.

And you're indeed also "lying" if you claim that what GOP legislatures are doing is just "reverting to the 2018 rules."...nope, they've making it harder to vote, wherever they can, than in 2018. Pretty sure you know that.

Want to make elections even more secure than what GOP officials said was the most secure US election ever held? Make sure all voting has a paper trail, all voting is traceable. Have large penalties for intentional fraud.

Want to increase "public confidence"?
Also make a law against election fraud claims that are known to be slanderous, known to be untrue.
Punish the liars.

Most of the new voter laws deal with identification. They may be a roll back some of 2020's situational rules, again unauthorized by the Constitution. However, Georgia will have ballot drop boxes again. Now, if you're going to throw out minorities not being able to get an I.D., well that's just plain insulting to them. Stop being so paternal with everyone else's children.

As to your last point, having the government jail a citizen for speech doesn't exactly instill "public confidence". Maybe you meant "instill fear of my own government".

The US Constitution does not make any mention of voting procedures and thus those rules are delegated to the individual states.

Several constitutional amendments (the Fifteenth, Nineteenth, and Twenty-sixth specifically) require that voting rights of U.S. citizens cannot be abridged on account of race, color, previous condition of servitude, sex, or age (18 and older) as the Constitution as originally written did not establish any such rights.

https://constitutioncenter.org/interact ... lauses/750

No idea where you get the idea that changes implemented by the states are somehow unconstitutional. SCOTUS ruled in February against challenges to these laws in five states challenged by GOP.

None of the abridgements you mention say anything about convicted felons, especially violent felons with a long history of violent crime. Common sense and good judgement would say that concerning the vast majority of career violent felons that they lose forever the right to vote. They have a consolation prize, finding and purchasing an illegal firearm is still a piece of cake.

States regulate this item of voting as well. Feds are out of the picture currently (and since the Constitution was written).

It seems you already made this point and don't see why you needed to do it again anyway.

[dislaxxic]

THE GREEN BAY SWEEP IS INEXTRICABLY TIED TO THE VIOLENT MOB

mens re·a
/menz ˈrēə/
noun LAW
the intention or knowledge of wrongdoing that constitutes part of a crime, as opposed to the action or conduct of the accused.
"a mistaken belief in consent meant that the defendant lacked mens rea"

DOJ has had, since before January 6, the proof that these two efforts [the Mob and the GBS] worked in conjunction.

And that’s what changes the (as Judge Mehta described it) legal conspiracy to sow distrust in the election into an illegal conspiracy, with demonstrated mens rea of corrupt intent, to obstruct the vote count.

This is why DOJ has been pursuing a conspiracy to obstruct the vote count and not incitement. Because only the latter can reach to those who helped Trump commit his crime.

..

[MDlaxfan76]

Lying ? ....the basis for stop the steal is election fraud in key swing states where the election rules were changed due to the covid emerg -- those are the states to which the Congress members objected.

And now we've arrived, again, at Kismet's question----that you're avoiding:

If the Republicans in those key swing States claim the ballots in those States were illegitimate, explain why the Republican "winners" in those States took their seats, without hesitation?

Which members of Congress objected to certifying the electoral votes from their home state ?

Still avoiding the question.....this time pretending that you don't understand the question. Neat-o.

Questions are hard, I'm not unsympathetic.

Show us where I said the election was "stolen" -- you are demanding that I defend something I did not say.

My objection is to making permanent the last minute temporary covid emergency rules used in 2020.
imho -- they increase the opportunity for fraud, undermined public confidence in the outcome & enabled a big lie like stop the steal;

I prefer reverting to the 2018 rules. Were results from 2018 & before illegitimate ?
I do not reply to questions that are not applicable & a diversion.

But why, if there's no actual basis to not have public confidence other than the LIE from those upset they lost? Remember, it's a LIE. Not fraud.

The issue isn't that there was any fraud, nor any actual "opportunity for fraud" (there isn't, that too is a LIE), the issue was that they made it easier to cast a legitimate, traceable, verifiable vote from legitimate voters...that's the only actual issue.

Everything else is made up by those upset to have lost and that BS, the LIE, is further being used by those whose only interest is power and who think they can't win if all legitimate voters vote. It's a very old story.

And you're indeed also "lying" if you claim that what GOP legislatures are doing is just "reverting to the 2018 rules."...nope, they've making it harder to vote, wherever they can, than in 2018. Pretty sure you know that.

Want to make elections even more secure than what GOP officials said was the most secure US election ever held? Make sure all voting has a paper trail, all voting is traceable. Have large penalties for intentional fraud.

Want to increase "public confidence"?
Also make a law against election fraud claims that are known to be slanderous, known to be untrue.
Punish the liars.

Most of the new voter laws deal with identification. They may be a roll back some of 2020's situational rules, again unauthorized by the Constitution. However, Georgia will have ballot drop boxes again. Now, if you're going to throw out minorities not being able to get an I.D., well that's just plain insulting to them. Stop being so paternal with everyone else's children.

As to your last point, having the government jail a citizen for speech doesn't exactly instill "public confidence". Maybe you meant "instill fear of my own government".

The US Constitution does not make any mention of voting procedures and thus those rules are delegated to the individual states.

Several constitutional amendments (the Fifteenth, Nineteenth, and Twenty-sixth specifically) require that voting rights of U.S. citizens cannot be abridged on account of race, color, previous condition of servitude, sex, or age (18 and older) as the Constitution as originally written did not establish any such rights.

https://constitutioncenter.org/interact ... lauses/750

No idea where you get the idea that changes implemented by the states are somehow unconstitutional. SCOTUS ruled in February against challenges to these laws in five states challenged by GOP.

None of the abridgements you mention say anything about convicted felons, especially violent felons with a long history of violent crime. Common sense and good judgement would say that concerning the vast majority of career violent felons that they lose forever the right to vote. They have a consolation prize, finding and purchasing an illegal firearm is still a piece of cake.

Are felons citizens?
I understand why it's distasteful to have criminals be able to vote, but they're still citizens.
Yes, even. more distasteful if a violent felon, even more so if a serially violent felon, a "career felon".
But still a citizen.

Are we worried that they will vote to do away with jail time for murder and be successful? I'm not.

We incarcerate, as felons, a whole lot of people who are involved with drug related crimes, very, very disproportionately poor people, also very disproportionately people of color...indeed, Jim Crow laws purposely incarcerated blacks in order to eliminate them from the voting rolls.

Old story.

Note, I said that people who knowingly lie, fraudulently, slanderously lie about elections should be convicted and do time...I did NOT say they should lose their citizenship, their right to vote...as distasteful as it is to me that any of these a-holes have a right to vote.

Where we do we stop with creating felony laws that take away voting?

[Typical Lax Dad]

Lying ? ....the basis for stop the steal is election fraud in key swing states where the election rules were changed due to the covid emerg -- those are the states to which the Congress members objected.

And now we've arrived, again, at Kismet's question----that you're avoiding:

If the Republicans in those key swing States claim the ballots in those States were illegitimate, explain why the Republican "winners" in those States took their seats, without hesitation?

Which members of Congress objected to certifying the electoral votes from their home state ?

Still avoiding the question.....this time pretending that you don't understand the question. Neat-o.

Questions are hard, I'm not unsympathetic.

Show us where I said the election was "stolen" -- you are demanding that I defend something I did not say.

My objection is to making permanent the last minute temporary covid emergency rules used in 2020.
imho -- they increase the opportunity for fraud, undermined public confidence in the outcome & enabled a big lie like stop the steal;

I prefer reverting to the 2018 rules. Were results from 2018 & before illegitimate ?
I do not reply to questions that are not applicable & a diversion.

But why, if there's no actual basis to not have public confidence other than the LIE from those upset they lost? Remember, it's a LIE. Not fraud.

The issue isn't that there was any fraud, nor any actual "opportunity for fraud" (there isn't, that too is a LIE), the issue was that they made it easier to cast a legitimate, traceable, verifiable vote from legitimate voters...that's the only actual issue.

Everything else is made up by those upset to have lost and that BS, the LIE, is further being used by those whose only interest is power and who think they can't win if all legitimate voters vote. It's a very old story.

And you're indeed also "lying" if you claim that what GOP legislatures are doing is just "reverting to the 2018 rules."...nope, they've making it harder to vote, wherever they can, than in 2018. Pretty sure you know that.

Want to make elections even more secure than what GOP officials said was the most secure US election ever held? Make sure all voting has a paper trail, all voting is traceable. Have large penalties for intentional fraud.

Want to increase "public confidence"?
Also make a law against election fraud claims that are known to be slanderous, known to be untrue.
Punish the liars.

Most of the new voter laws deal with identification. They may be a roll back some of 2020's situational rules, again unauthorized by the Constitution. However, Georgia will have ballot drop boxes again. Now, if you're going to throw out minorities not being able to get an I.D., well that's just plain insulting to them. Stop being so paternal with everyone else's children.

As to your last point, having the government jail a citizen for speech doesn't exactly instill "public confidence". Maybe you meant "instill fear of my own government".

The US Constitution does not make any mention of voting procedures and thus those rules are delegated to the individual states.

Several constitutional amendments (the Fifteenth, Nineteenth, and Twenty-sixth specifically) require that voting rights of U.S. citizens cannot be abridged on account of race, color, previous condition of servitude, sex, or age (18 and older) as the Constitution as originally written did not establish any such rights.

https://constitutioncenter.org/interact ... lauses/750

No idea where you get the idea that changes implemented by the states are somehow unconstitutional. SCOTUS ruled in February against challenges to these laws in five states challenged by GOP.

None of the abridgements you mention say anything about convicted felons, especially violent felons with a long history of violent crime. Common sense and good judgement would say that concerning the vast majority of career violent felons that they lose forever the right to vote. They have a consolation prize, finding and purchasing an illegal firearm is still a piece of cake.

Are felons citizens?
I understand why it's distasteful to have criminals be able to vote, but they're still citizens.
Yes, even. more distasteful if a violent felon, even more so if a serially violent felon, a "career felon".
But still a citizen.

Are we worried that they will vote to do away with jail time for murder and be successful? I'm not.

We incarcerate, as felons, a whole lot of people who are involved with drug related crimes, very, very disproportionately poor people, also very disproportionately people of color...indeed, Jim Crow laws purposely incarcerated blacks in order to eliminate them from the voting rolls.

Old story.

Note, I said that people who knowingly lie, fraudulently, slanderously lie about elections should be convicted and do time...I did NOT say they should lose their citizenship, their right to vote...as distasteful as it is to me that any of these a-holes have a right to vote.

Where we do we stop with creating felony laws that take away voting?

These issues did come to be out of thin air….long history.
https://www.history.com/.amp/news/jim-c ... black-vote

[cradleandshoot]

Lying ? ....the basis for stop the steal is election fraud in key swing states where the election rules were changed due to the covid emerg -- those are the states to which the Congress members objected.

And now we've arrived, again, at Kismet's question----that you're avoiding:

If the Republicans in those key swing States claim the ballots in those States were illegitimate, explain why the Republican "winners" in those States took their seats, without hesitation?

Which members of Congress objected to certifying the electoral votes from their home state ?

Still avoiding the question.....this time pretending that you don't understand the question. Neat-o.

Questions are hard, I'm not unsympathetic.

Show us where I said the election was "stolen" -- you are demanding that I defend something I did not say.

My objection is to making permanent the last minute temporary covid emergency rules used in 2020.
imho -- they increase the opportunity for fraud, undermined public confidence in the outcome & enabled a big lie like stop the steal;

I prefer reverting to the 2018 rules. Were results from 2018 & before illegitimate ?
I do not reply to questions that are not applicable & a diversion.

But why, if there's no actual basis to not have public confidence other than the LIE from those upset they lost? Remember, it's a LIE. Not fraud.

The issue isn't that there was any fraud, nor any actual "opportunity for fraud" (there isn't, that too is a LIE), the issue was that they made it easier to cast a legitimate, traceable, verifiable vote from legitimate voters...that's the only actual issue.

Everything else is made up by those upset to have lost and that BS, the LIE, is further being used by those whose only interest is power and who think they can't win if all legitimate voters vote. It's a very old story.

And you're indeed also "lying" if you claim that what GOP legislatures are doing is just "reverting to the 2018 rules."...nope, they've making it harder to vote, wherever they can, than in 2018. Pretty sure you know that.

Want to make elections even more secure than what GOP officials said was the most secure US election ever held? Make sure all voting has a paper trail, all voting is traceable. Have large penalties for intentional fraud.

Want to increase "public confidence"?
Also make a law against election fraud claims that are known to be slanderous, known to be untrue.
Punish the liars.

Most of the new voter laws deal with identification. They may be a roll back some of 2020's situational rules, again unauthorized by the Constitution. However, Georgia will have ballot drop boxes again. Now, if you're going to throw out minorities not being able to get an I.D., well that's just plain insulting to them. Stop being so paternal with everyone else's children.

As to your last point, having the government jail a citizen for speech doesn't exactly instill "public confidence". Maybe you meant "instill fear of my own government".

The US Constitution does not make any mention of voting procedures and thus those rules are delegated to the individual states.

Several constitutional amendments (the Fifteenth, Nineteenth, and Twenty-sixth specifically) require that voting rights of U.S. citizens cannot be abridged on account of race, color, previous condition of servitude, sex, or age (18 and older) as the Constitution as originally written did not establish any such rights.

https://constitutioncenter.org/interact ... lauses/750

No idea where you get the idea that changes implemented by the states are somehow unconstitutional. SCOTUS ruled in February against challenges to these laws in five states challenged by GOP.

None of the abridgements you mention say anything about convicted felons, especially violent felons with a long history of violent crime. Common sense and good judgement would say that concerning the vast majority of career violent felons that they lose forever the right to vote. They have a consolation prize, finding and purchasing an illegal firearm is still a piece of cake.

Are felons citizens?
I understand why it's distasteful to have criminals be able to vote, but they're still citizens.
Yes, even. more distasteful if a violent felon, even more so if a serially violent felon, a "career felon".
But still a citizen.

Are we worried that they will vote to do away with jail time for murder and be successful? I'm not.

We incarcerate, as felons, a whole lot of people who are involved with drug related crimes, very, very disproportionately poor people, also very disproportionately people of color...indeed, Jim Crow laws purposely incarcerated blacks in order to eliminate them from the voting rolls.

Old story.

Note, I said that people who knowingly lie, fraudulently, slanderously lie about elections should be convicted and do time...I did NOT say they should lose their citizenship, their right to vote...as distasteful as it is to me that any of these a-holes have a right to vote.

Where we do we stop with creating felony laws that take away voting?

Convicted VIOLENT felons also can't legally purchase a firearm. Since you are arguing they are still citizens and should have the right to vote, why should they be denied the right to own a firearm? I'm am talking about convicted VIOLENT felons. Especially the hardcore career criminals. I think denying them the right to vote is a fair consequence. Maybe it makes sense to allow them after a period of time with no criminal behavior to earn back that right.

[cradleandshoot]

Lying ? ....the basis for stop the steal is election fraud in key swing states where the election rules were changed due to the covid emerg -- those are the states to which the Congress members objected.

And now we've arrived, again, at Kismet's question----that you're avoiding:

If the Republicans in those key swing States claim the ballots in those States were illegitimate, explain why the Republican "winners" in those States took their seats, without hesitation?

Which members of Congress objected to certifying the electoral votes from their home state ?

Still avoiding the question.....this time pretending that you don't understand the question. Neat-o.

Questions are hard, I'm not unsympathetic.

Show us where I said the election was "stolen" -- you are demanding that I defend something I did not say.

My objection is to making permanent the last minute temporary covid emergency rules used in 2020.
imho -- they increase the opportunity for fraud, undermined public confidence in the outcome & enabled a big lie like stop the steal;

I prefer reverting to the 2018 rules. Were results from 2018 & before illegitimate ?
I do not reply to questions that are not applicable & a diversion.

But why, if there's no actual basis to not have public confidence other than the LIE from those upset they lost? Remember, it's a LIE. Not fraud.

The issue isn't that there was any fraud, nor any actual "opportunity for fraud" (there isn't, that too is a LIE), the issue was that they made it easier to cast a legitimate, traceable, verifiable vote from legitimate voters...that's the only actual issue.

Everything else is made up by those upset to have lost and that BS, the LIE, is further being used by those whose only interest is power and who think they can't win if all legitimate voters vote. It's a very old story.

And you're indeed also "lying" if you claim that what GOP legislatures are doing is just "reverting to the 2018 rules."...nope, they've making it harder to vote, wherever they can, than in 2018. Pretty sure you know that.

Want to make elections even more secure than what GOP officials said was the most secure US election ever held? Make sure all voting has a paper trail, all voting is traceable. Have large penalties for intentional fraud.

Want to increase "public confidence"?
Also make a law against election fraud claims that are known to be slanderous, known to be untrue.
Punish the liars.

Most of the new voter laws deal with identification. They may be a roll back some of 2020's situational rules, again unauthorized by the Constitution. However, Georgia will have ballot drop boxes again. Now, if you're going to throw out minorities not being able to get an I.D., well that's just plain insulting to them. Stop being so paternal with everyone else's children.

As to your last point, having the government jail a citizen for speech doesn't exactly instill "public confidence". Maybe you meant "instill fear of my own government".

The US Constitution does not make any mention of voting procedures and thus those rules are delegated to the individual states.

Several constitutional amendments (the Fifteenth, Nineteenth, and Twenty-sixth specifically) require that voting rights of U.S. citizens cannot be abridged on account of race, color, previous condition of servitude, sex, or age (18 and older) as the Constitution as originally written did not establish any such rights.

https://constitutioncenter.org/interact ... lauses/750

No idea where you get the idea that changes implemented by the states are somehow unconstitutional. SCOTUS ruled in February against challenges to these laws in five states challenged by GOP.

None of the abridgements you mention say anything about convicted felons, especially violent felons with a long history of violent crime. Common sense and good judgement would say that concerning the vast majority of career violent felons that they lose forever the right to vote. They have a consolation prize, finding and purchasing an illegal firearm is still a piece of cake.

States regulate this item of voting as well. Feds are out of the picture currently (and since the Constitution was written).

It seems you already made this point and don't see why you needed to do it again anyway.

It is because sometimes there is a need to make the same point over and over. With any luck it may sink into the craniums of some people. Given the obtuse nature of some posters that will never happen.

[Kismet]

Lying ? ....the basis for stop the steal is election fraud in key swing states where the election rules were changed due to the covid emerg -- those are the states to which the Congress members objected.

And now we've arrived, again, at Kismet's question----that you're avoiding:

If the Republicans in those key swing States claim the ballots in those States were illegitimate, explain why the Republican "winners" in those States took their seats, without hesitation?

Which members of Congress objected to certifying the electoral votes from their home state ?

Still avoiding the question.....this time pretending that you don't understand the question. Neat-o.

Questions are hard, I'm not unsympathetic.

Show us where I said the election was "stolen" -- you are demanding that I defend something I did not say.

My objection is to making permanent the last minute temporary covid emergency rules used in 2020.
imho -- they increase the opportunity for fraud, undermined public confidence in the outcome & enabled a big lie like stop the steal;

I prefer reverting to the 2018 rules. Were results from 2018 & before illegitimate ?
I do not reply to questions that are not applicable & a diversion.

But why, if there's no actual basis to not have public confidence other than the LIE from those upset they lost? Remember, it's a LIE. Not fraud.

The issue isn't that there was any fraud, nor any actual "opportunity for fraud" (there isn't, that too is a LIE), the issue was that they made it easier to cast a legitimate, traceable, verifiable vote from legitimate voters...that's the only actual issue.

Everything else is made up by those upset to have lost and that BS, the LIE, is further being used by those whose only interest is power and who think they can't win if all legitimate voters vote. It's a very old story.

And you're indeed also "lying" if you claim that what GOP legislatures are doing is just "reverting to the 2018 rules."...nope, they've making it harder to vote, wherever they can, than in 2018. Pretty sure you know that.

Want to make elections even more secure than what GOP officials said was the most secure US election ever held? Make sure all voting has a paper trail, all voting is traceable. Have large penalties for intentional fraud.

Want to increase "public confidence"?
Also make a law against election fraud claims that are known to be slanderous, known to be untrue.
Punish the liars.

Most of the new voter laws deal with identification. They may be a roll back some of 2020's situational rules, again unauthorized by the Constitution. However, Georgia will have ballot drop boxes again. Now, if you're going to throw out minorities not being able to get an I.D., well that's just plain insulting to them. Stop being so paternal with everyone else's children.

As to your last point, having the government jail a citizen for speech doesn't exactly instill "public confidence". Maybe you meant "instill fear of my own government".

The US Constitution does not make any mention of voting procedures and thus those rules are delegated to the individual states.

Several constitutional amendments (the Fifteenth, Nineteenth, and Twenty-sixth specifically) require that voting rights of U.S. citizens cannot be abridged on account of race, color, previous condition of servitude, sex, or age (18 and older) as the Constitution as originally written did not establish any such rights.

https://constitutioncenter.org/interact ... lauses/750

No idea where you get the idea that changes implemented by the states are somehow unconstitutional. SCOTUS ruled in February against challenges to these laws in five states challenged by GOP.

None of the abridgements you mention say anything about convicted felons, especially violent felons with a long history of violent crime. Common sense and good judgement would say that concerning the vast majority of career violent felons that they lose forever the right to vote. They have a consolation prize, finding and purchasing an illegal firearm is still a piece of cake.

States regulate this item of voting as well. Feds are out of the picture currently (and since the Constitution was written).

It seems you already made this point and don't see why you needed to do it again anyway.

It is because sometimes there is a need to make the same point over and over. With any luck it may sink into the craniums of some people. Given the obtuse nature of some posters that will never happen.

Sort of like the old adage - "Takes one to know one" perhaps?

[MDlaxfan76]

Lying ? ....the basis for stop the steal is election fraud in key swing states where the election rules were changed due to the covid emerg -- those are the states to which the Congress members objected.

And now we've arrived, again, at Kismet's question----that you're avoiding:

If the Republicans in those key swing States claim the ballots in those States were illegitimate, explain why the Republican "winners" in those States took their seats, without hesitation?

Which members of Congress objected to certifying the electoral votes from their home state ?

Still avoiding the question.....this time pretending that you don't understand the question. Neat-o.

Questions are hard, I'm not unsympathetic.

Show us where I said the election was "stolen" -- you are demanding that I defend something I did not say.

My objection is to making permanent the last minute temporary covid emergency rules used in 2020.
imho -- they increase the opportunity for fraud, undermined public confidence in the outcome & enabled a big lie like stop the steal;

I prefer reverting to the 2018 rules. Were results from 2018 & before illegitimate ?
I do not reply to questions that are not applicable & a diversion.

But why, if there's no actual basis to not have public confidence other than the LIE from those upset they lost? Remember, it's a LIE. Not fraud.

The issue isn't that there was any fraud, nor any actual "opportunity for fraud" (there isn't, that too is a LIE), the issue was that they made it easier to cast a legitimate, traceable, verifiable vote from legitimate voters...that's the only actual issue.

Everything else is made up by those upset to have lost and that BS, the LIE, is further being used by those whose only interest is power and who think they can't win if all legitimate voters vote. It's a very old story.

And you're indeed also "lying" if you claim that what GOP legislatures are doing is just "reverting to the 2018 rules."...nope, they've making it harder to vote, wherever they can, than in 2018. Pretty sure you know that.

Want to make elections even more secure than what GOP officials said was the most secure US election ever held? Make sure all voting has a paper trail, all voting is traceable. Have large penalties for intentional fraud.

Want to increase "public confidence"?
Also make a law against election fraud claims that are known to be slanderous, known to be untrue.
Punish the liars.

Most of the new voter laws deal with identification. They may be a roll back some of 2020's situational rules, again unauthorized by the Constitution. However, Georgia will have ballot drop boxes again. Now, if you're going to throw out minorities not being able to get an I.D., well that's just plain insulting to them. Stop being so paternal with everyone else's children.

As to your last point, having the government jail a citizen for speech doesn't exactly instill "public confidence". Maybe you meant "instill fear of my own government".

The US Constitution does not make any mention of voting procedures and thus those rules are delegated to the individual states.

Several constitutional amendments (the Fifteenth, Nineteenth, and Twenty-sixth specifically) require that voting rights of U.S. citizens cannot be abridged on account of race, color, previous condition of servitude, sex, or age (18 and older) as the Constitution as originally written did not establish any such rights.

https://constitutioncenter.org/interact ... lauses/750

No idea where you get the idea that changes implemented by the states are somehow unconstitutional. SCOTUS ruled in February against challenges to these laws in five states challenged by GOP.

None of the abridgements you mention say anything about convicted felons, especially violent felons with a long history of violent crime. Common sense and good judgement would say that concerning the vast majority of career violent felons that they lose forever the right to vote. They have a consolation prize, finding and purchasing an illegal firearm is still a piece of cake.

Are felons citizens?
I understand why it's distasteful to have criminals be able to vote, but they're still citizens.
Yes, even. more distasteful if a violent felon, even more so if a serially violent felon, a "career felon".
But still a citizen.

Are we worried that they will vote to do away with jail time for murder and be successful? I'm not.

We incarcerate, as felons, a whole lot of people who are involved with drug related crimes, very, very disproportionately poor people, also very disproportionately people of color...indeed, Jim Crow laws purposely incarcerated blacks in order to eliminate them from the voting rolls.

Old story.

Note, I said that people who knowingly lie, fraudulently, slanderously lie about elections should be convicted and do time...I did NOT say they should lose their citizenship, their right to vote...as distasteful as it is to me that any of these a-holes have a right to vote.

Where we do we stop with creating felony laws that take away voting?

Convicted VIOLENT felons also can't legally purchase a firearm. Since you are arguing they are still citizens and should have the right to vote, why should they be denied the right to own a firearm? I'm am talking about convicted VIOLENT felons. Especially the hardcore career criminals. I think denying them the right to vote is a fair consequence. Maybe it makes sense to allow them after a period of time with no criminal behavior to earn back that right.

Prevention of crime is a reasonable "consequence". Incarceration, conditions of parole, no access to the tools of the prior crimes...all related to prevention. Voting has nothing to do with the crime or risk of further crimes.

[seacoaster]

Still the standard:

file:///C:/Users/ccole.SPBG/Downloads/Report_Truth-About-Voter-Fraud.pdf

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/ ... mail-fraud

[dislaxxic]

There's a thread for Voting issues, people...

Would the Admin consider moving all this voting discussion over there, please?

..

[dislaxxic]

This was posted above...and it discusses THE CRIME that DJT may very well have committed.

Posters seem like they want to bury this under a mountain of "Voting Rights" discussion...take it over to that thread, OK?

THE GREEN BAY SWEEP IS INEXTRICABLY TIED TO THE VIOLENT MOB

mens re·a
/menz ˈrēə/
noun LAW
the intention or knowledge of wrongdoing that constitutes part of a crime, as opposed to the action or conduct of the accused.
"a mistaken belief in consent meant that the defendant lacked mens rea"

DOJ has had, since before January 6, the proof that these two efforts [the Mob and the GBS] worked in conjunction.

And that’s what changes the (as Judge Mehta described it) legal conspiracy to sow distrust in the election into an illegal conspiracy, with demonstrated mens rea of corrupt intent, to obstruct the vote count.

This is why DOJ has been pursuing a conspiracy to obstruct the vote count and not incitement. Because only the latter can reach to those who helped Trump commit his crime.

..

[cradleandshoot]

Minority voters disproportionately lack ID. Nationally, up to 25% of African-American citizens of voting age lack government-issued photo ID, compared to only 8% of whites.6
States exclude forms of ID in a discriminatory manner. Texas allows concealed weapons permits for voting, but does not accept student ID cards. Until its voter ID law was struck down, North Carolina prohibited public assistance IDs and state employee ID cards, which are disproportionately held by Black voters. And until recently, Wisconsin permitted active duty military ID cards, but prohibited Veterans Affairs ID cards for voting.
Voter ID laws are enforced in a discriminatory manner. A Caltech/MIT study found that minority voters are more frequently questioned about ID than are white voters.7

That's only fair. minority citizens should not have to undergo the REAL ID torture. It's too hard.

MAGA…..Remember Ferguson!!

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/ ... their-fair

Yet a convicted felon can't legally own a firearm. Maybe we can relax that law as well. Then all those career felons won't have to be bothered buying illegal weapons on the street. Hell they can even vote for the candidates that will make that happen.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/pa ... ar-AASyubY

You comfy there TLD with this mother effing rat baztard being able to vote? He painted his illegal weapon to look like a toy no less. I'm sure that deception could cause a police officer to hesitate just long enough for this POS to shoot the officer. I have no problem with some convicted felons being allowed to vote. That should be done on a case by case basis taking into account the individual and their criminal record. Violent felons IMO should never be allowed to cast a legal vote.

why so angry?

Why so obtuse?? read the link and explain your dumb ass logic to the family of Benji Martinez...