January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

[dislaxxic]

The Jan. 6 Insurrectionists Begging for Pardons Sound an Awful Lot Like Confederate Soldiers

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[MDlaxfan76]

The Jan. 6 Insurrectionists Begging for Pardons Sound an Awful Lot Like Confederate Soldiers

..

Fair comparison.

[a fan]

Imagine what Mayor Daley could have done with mail-in ballots, bundlers, drop boxes, felons & non-citizens voting.

The point was he likely did it without your red herring....which is exactly why your absentee ballot rants here are nothing more than that. 6-7 states do essentially ALL ballots by mail and to date there have no credible cases of significant fraud (except by Republicans in NC).

You ignored the second question - if all these unsolicited mail ballots contained boatloads of fraud how is it that nobody ever mentions the results of all the other races on the SAME BALLOTS where Republicans actually gained seats in the House.

Al Franken & others.

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/pe ... oter-fraud

https://www.marshallnewsmessenger.com/v ... 037b8.html

https://nypost.com/2020/08/29/political ... n-ballots/

Aaaaaaand you're right back to claiming our entire election system is fraudulent. That didn't take long.

[Typical Lax Dad]

The Jan. 6 Insurrectionists Begging for Pardons Sound an Awful Lot Like Confederate Soldiers

..

Fair comparison.

And the sympathizers sound similar as well.

[kramerica.inc]

White supremacists, Jan 6 participants. Voter suppressionists. Trump supporters. And those not vaccinated. And legal gun owners. And those not boosted soon enough. etc. etc.

Yes, the existential threat is right here at our doorsteps. The country's greatest threats are none other than domestic. As Kamala said this is JUST like Pearl Harbor and 9-11. And as the activity of this thread shows- some actually believe it. Historical ignorance and hyper-partisan overreach, aside.

But will it be enough to help in the mid terms?

[Typical Lax Dad]

White supremacists, Jan 6 participants. Voter suppressionists. Trump supporters. And those not vaccinated. And legal gun owners. And those not boosted soon enough. etc. etc.

Yes, the existential threat is right here at our doorsteps. The country's greatest threats are none other than domestic. As Kamala said this is JUST like Pearl Harbor and 9-11. And as the activity of this thread shows- some actually believe it. Historical ignorance and hyper-partisan overreach, aside.

But will it be enough to help in the mid terms?

Race war is coming too.

[MDlaxfan76]

White supremacists, Jan 6 participants. Voter suppressionists. Trump supporters. And those not vaccinated. And legal gun owners. And those not boosted soon enough. etc. etc.

Yes, the existential threat is right here at our doorsteps. The country's greatest threats are none other than domestic. As Kamala said this is JUST like Pearl Harbor and 9-11. And as the activity of this thread shows- some actually believe it. Historical ignorance and hyper-partisan overreach, aside.

But will it be enough to help in the mid terms?

"legal gun owners"???“


Certain dates echo throughout history, including dates that instantly remind all who have lived through them, where they were and what they were doing when our democracy came under assault,” Harris said at the Capitol, kicking off a day of events commemorating the Jan. 6 attack.

Harris said some dates in U.S. history "“occupy not only a place on our calendars, but a place in our collective memory. December 7th, 1941. September 11th, 2001. And January 6th, 2021.”

Harris spoke before President Joe Biden gave his most forceful remarks yet on former President Donald Trump’s responsibility for the Jan. 6 Capitol attack last year.

She's actually right, if a bit hyperbolic...January 6 will indeed be a part of our collective memory for quite some time. We'll know exactly what is being referred to simply by the date. And it indeed should be a "date which lives in infamy". On that she's correct.

However, one might quibble with those specific date comparisons, Dec 7 and 9-11, as they involved a foreign enemy, not a domestic terrorist attack. But they are indeed the dates most easily recognized, by most people (not sure what % of Americans today could actually tell you the date Pearl Harbor was attacked, though).

But certainly more than April 19, 1995. Horrific as that bombing was, it wasn't understood to be supported by a large number of people, a significant 'enemy' within.

Arguably more akin to the Battle of Bull Run, which certainly would have been part of the collective memory for most of that following century. But a date that's largely beyond the consciousness of today's generations...heck most Americans couldn't even tell you the dates of the Civil War, even if they do have a sense of how monumental and horrific it was...

Or May 31 and June 1, 1921...Tulsa Race Massacre...certainly a date which should have lived in infamy, but was quite consciously erased from collective memory.

Or more positively, June 19, which has now become a federal holiday, despite the prior efforts to erase that date from our "collective memory" as well.

Yes, we do face an "existential threat"...to our democracy.
Is that a greater threat than all other threats? Nuclear war? Climate crisis?

I dunno, I'm willing to walk and chew gum, but it's way, way more serious than many would prefer...because they really don't care about the principles of democracy, all they care about is power and privilege for themselves. 40% of Republicans say they are willing to commit violence against their government, if they're not in power...power by whatever means necessary...85% say that Biden was not elected in a fair and accurate election. They believe the Big Lie.

And the way our social media and overall media landscape has balkanized, there really is the possibility that our divisions increase, not heal.

But sure, there's indeed hyper-partisan over reach from the left as well, a major contributing to factor to those divisions...However, I just don't see the same threat to democracy coming from that direction at this point.

[youthathletics]

Yes, we do face an "existential threat"...to our democracy.
Is that a greater threat than all other threats? Nuclear war? Climate crisis?

I dunno, I'm willing to walk and chew gum, but it's way, way more serious than many would prefer...because they really don't care about the principles of democracy, all they care about is power and privilege for themselves. 40% of Republicans say they are willing to commit violence against their government, if they're not in power...power by whatever means necessary...85% say that Biden was not elected in a fair and accurate election. They believe the Big Lie.

And the way our social media and overall media landscape has balkanized, there really is the possibility that our divisions increase, not heal.

But sure, there's indeed hyper-partisan over reach from the left as well, a major contributing to factor to those divisions...However, I just don't see the same threat to democracy coming from that direction at this point.

It'll get better, we are country that always advances. We don't need all this negative-nelly crap. Sure we can talk about, but no need to talk it in to existence.

[PizzaSnake]

Yes, we do face an "existential threat"...to our democracy.
Is that a greater threat than all other threats? Nuclear war? Climate crisis?

I dunno, I'm willing to walk and chew gum, but it's way, way more serious than many would prefer...because they really don't care about the principles of democracy, all they care about is power and privilege for themselves. 40% of Republicans say they are willing to commit violence against their government, if they're not in power...power by whatever means necessary...85% say that Biden was not elected in a fair and accurate election. They believe the Big Lie.

And the way our social media and overall media landscape has balkanized, there really is the possibility that our divisions increase, not heal.

But sure, there's indeed hyper-partisan over reach from the left as well, a major contributing to factor to those divisions...However, I just don't see the same threat to democracy coming from that direction at this point.

It'll get better, we are country that always advances. We don't need all this negative-nelly crap. Sure we can talk about, but no need to talk it in to existence.

Struthian problem solving?

[old salt]

I think it is fair to say that there is some activity in many elections that is not on the up and up but is it significant enough to change an outcome is the real pertinent question.

So let's make it easier. It has more of a potential to be a difference maker on down ballot & local/state elections.

If the Presidential election results were fraudulent why aren't all of the other races on the same ballot also fraudulent?

Some may be. Who knows ? I'm concerned about restraining the growth of the potential for fraud at all levels.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Yes, we do face an "existential threat"...to our democracy.
Is that a greater threat than all other threats? Nuclear war? Climate crisis?

I dunno, I'm willing to walk and chew gum, but it's way, way more serious than many would prefer...because they really don't care about the principles of democracy, all they care about is power and privilege for themselves. 40% of Republicans say they are willing to commit violence against their government, if they're not in power...power by whatever means necessary...85% say that Biden was not elected in a fair and accurate election. They believe the Big Lie.

And the way our social media and overall media landscape has balkanized, there really is the possibility that our divisions increase, not heal.

But sure, there's indeed hyper-partisan over reach from the left as well, a major contributing to factor to those divisions...However, I just don't see the same threat to democracy coming from that direction at this point.

It'll get better, we are country that always advances. We don't need all this negative-nelly crap. Sure we can talk about, but no need to talk it in to existence.

Always is a relative term. It’s “always” until it isn’t. It’s a young country. Our run could be coming to an end. Happened to the Beatles, The Who and Zeppelin.

[old salt]

Imagine what Mayor Daley could have done with mail-in ballots, bundlers, drop boxes, felons & non-citizens voting.

The point was he likely did it without your red herring....which is exactly why your absentee ballot rants here are nothing more than that. 6-7 states do essentially ALL ballots by mail and to date there have no credible cases of significant fraud (except by Republicans in NC).

You ignored the second question - if all these unsolicited mail ballots contained boatloads of fraud how is it that nobody ever mentions the results of all the other races on the SAME BALLOTS where Republicans actually gained seats in the House.

Al Franken & others.

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/pe ... oter-fraud

https://www.marshallnewsmessenger.com/v ... 037b8.html

https://nypost.com/2020/08/29/political ... n-ballots/

Aaaaaaand you're right back to claiming our entire election system is fraudulent. That didn't take long.

Mr. All-or-Nothing's perfect-enemy-of-good circular logic, yet again.
There will always be some level of fraud. Don't make it worse.

[youthathletics]

Yes, we do face an "existential threat"...to our democracy.
Is that a greater threat than all other threats? Nuclear war? Climate crisis?

I dunno, I'm willing to walk and chew gum, but it's way, way more serious than many would prefer...because they really don't care about the principles of democracy, all they care about is power and privilege for themselves. 40% of Republicans say they are willing to commit violence against their government, if they're not in power...power by whatever means necessary...85% say that Biden was not elected in a fair and accurate election. They believe the Big Lie.

And the way our social media and overall media landscape has balkanized, there really is the possibility that our divisions increase, not heal.

But sure, there's indeed hyper-partisan over reach from the left as well, a major contributing to factor to those divisions...However, I just don't see the same threat to democracy coming from that direction at this point.

It'll get better, we are country that always advances. We don't need all this negative-nelly crap. Sure we can talk about, but no need to talk it in to existence.

Struthian problem solving?

You and Kamala would get along great.

[dislaxxic]

White supremacists, Jan 6 participants. Voter suppressionists. Trump supporters. And those not vaccinated. And legal gun owners. And those not boosted soon enough. etc. etc.

Yes, the existential threat is right here at our doorsteps. The country's greatest threats are none other than domestic. As Kamala said this is JUST like Pearl Harbor and 9-11. And as the activity of this thread shows- some actually believe it. Historical ignorance and hyper-partisan overreach, aside.

But will it be enough to help in the mid terms?

Is the Big Lie a real thing, Kram? Do YOU believe it's a lie? Did Biden win the election or didn't he? Are you comfortable with the level of buy-in by rank and file republicans that the Big Lie is, in fact, a lie??

How bout you OS? Same questions. youthathletics? tech??

..

[PizzaSnake]

Yes, we do face an "existential threat"...to our democracy.
Is that a greater threat than all other threats? Nuclear war? Climate crisis?

I dunno, I'm willing to walk and chew gum, but it's way, way more serious than many would prefer...because they really don't care about the principles of democracy, all they care about is power and privilege for themselves. 40% of Republicans say they are willing to commit violence against their government, if they're not in power...power by whatever means necessary...85% say that Biden was not elected in a fair and accurate election. They believe the Big Lie.

And the way our social media and overall media landscape has balkanized, there really is the possibility that our divisions increase, not heal.

But sure, there's indeed hyper-partisan over reach from the left as well, a major contributing to factor to those divisions...However, I just don't see the same threat to democracy coming from that direction at this point.

It'll get better, we are country that always advances. We don't need all this negative-nelly crap. Sure we can talk about, but no need to talk it in to existence.

Struthian problem solving?

You and Kamala would get along great.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocturn ... _–_Chelsea

[MDlaxfan76]

Yes, we do face an "existential threat"...to our democracy.
Is that a greater threat than all other threats? Nuclear war? Climate crisis?

I dunno, I'm willing to walk and chew gum, but it's way, way more serious than many would prefer...because they really don't care about the principles of democracy, all they care about is power and privilege for themselves. 40% of Republicans say they are willing to commit violence against their government, if they're not in power...power by whatever means necessary...85% say that Biden was not elected in a fair and accurate election. They believe the Big Lie.

And the way our social media and overall media landscape has balkanized, there really is the possibility that our divisions increase, not heal.

But sure, there's indeed hyper-partisan over reach from the left as well, a major contributing to factor to those divisions...However, I just don't see the same threat to democracy coming from that direction at this point.

It'll get better, we are country that always advances. We don't need all this negative-nelly crap. Sure we can talk about, but no need to talk it in to existence.

I, too, like to think positively...but I thought that the aftermath of Jan 6 was going to a major shift to the positive, leading to a rejection by the GOP, my party, of the worst impulses embraced and led by Trump, and a return to some sort of rational competition for voter support based on ideas and proposed solutions, not complete lies, fear and resentment.

Painfully, those worst impulses appear to have only grown stronger in the formal GOP and in the hardening of their base voters. It's really weird IMO, but I don't think we can pretend it away.

Now, I'd been predicting the autocratic impulses to worsen during the Trump Presidency, so I wasn't actually surprised, though horrified, by how it seemed to culminate in a crescendo down the final stretch...but I'd really hav thought that the spell would be broken...but it hasn't been.

So, was that just the beginning of something much worse?

[dislaxxic]

DISCOVERY DELAYS AT THE EAST DOOR: WHAT KEY JANUARY 6 PLEA NEGOTIATIONS LOOK LIKE

Lots of people have lost patience with the January 6 investigation based on misunderstandings about what it has discovered so far and where it may be heading. So I’d like to explain a delay that might tangibly hold up the investigation for two months: plea negotiations that might provide more information on the coordinated effort between the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, Alex Jones, and an alarming number of Marines to breach the East front of the Capitol.

(Although who am I kidding? The people complaining don’t understand the investigation in this level of detail.)

When DOJ filed the existing superseding indictment charging the Proud Boy leaders last March, it made clear that the crowd of people assembled on the East steps before those doors were opened from the inside was of some interest, not least because we knew even then that Biggs and two other Proud Boys entered with the stack of Oath Keepers, which was led by Floridian Kelly Meggs, who had forged an alliance between Florida militia members in December 2020.

[snip]

We’ve subsequently learned the inquiry into the East door is far vaster than that. The inquiry into how the East door got opened from the inside started at least by February; it figures prominently in Philip Grillo’s arrest affidavit. In May, DOJ arrested active duty Marine Chris Warnagiris for ensuring the East door stayed open once it had been breached. At the end of June, DOJ arrested Proud Boy Ricky Willden for his role in breaching the East side, without telling us what they knew about it. Also at the end of June, DOJ arrested Darrell Youngers and George Tenney; the former is a Marine, the latter is the guy who first opened the East door, before others like Grillo joined in. Leading up to Josiah Colt’s plea in July, DOJ likely learned more about how his co-conspirators, Nate DeGrave and Ronnie Sandlin, knew to head to the East door to fight with cops to keep it open. In September, the government revealed that Jerod and Joshua Hughes, brothers who were instrumental in helping to open the West door, who then occupied the Senate floor, had — like Biggs — exited the building and reentered via the East door breach along with the Oath Keepers.

..

[MDlaxfan76]

DISCOVERY DELAYS AT THE EAST DOOR: WHAT KEY JANUARY 6 PLEA NEGOTIATIONS LOOK LIKE

Lots of people have lost patience with the January 6 investigation based on misunderstandings about what it has discovered so far and where it may be heading. So I’d like to explain a delay that might tangibly hold up the investigation for two months: plea negotiations that might provide more information on the coordinated effort between the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, Alex Jones, and an alarming number of Marines to breach the East front of the Capitol.

(Although who am I kidding? The people complaining don’t understand the investigation in this level of detail.)

When DOJ filed the existing superseding indictment charging the Proud Boy leaders last March, it made clear that the crowd of people assembled on the East steps before those doors were opened from the inside was of some interest, not least because we knew even then that Biggs and two other Proud Boys entered with the stack of Oath Keepers, which was led by Floridian Kelly Meggs, who had forged an alliance between Florida militia members in December 2020.

[snip]

We’ve subsequently learned the inquiry into the East door is far vaster than that. The inquiry into how the East door got opened from the inside started at least by February; it figures prominently in Philip Grillo’s arrest affidavit. In May, DOJ arrested active duty Marine Chris Warnagiris for ensuring the East door stayed open once it had been breached. At the end of June, DOJ arrested Proud Boy Ricky Willden for his role in breaching the East side, without telling us what they knew about it. Also at the end of June, DOJ arrested Darrell Youngers and George Tenney; the former is a Marine, the latter is the guy who first opened the East door, before others like Grillo joined in. Leading up to Josiah Colt’s plea in July, DOJ likely learned more about how his co-conspirators, Nate DeGrave and Ronnie Sandlin, knew to head to the East door to fight with cops to keep it open. In September, the government revealed that Jerod and Joshua Hughes, brothers who were instrumental in helping to open the West door, who then occupied the Senate floor, had — like Biggs — exited the building and reentered via the East door breach along with the Oath Keepers.

..

Dis, without reading the whole piece, is there an answer as to why it is being characterized that the East door was "opened from inside"? Is there an implication that someone from perhaps the Capitol Police was involved? Or that someone else was otherwise pre-positioned?

Or am I over reading?

[youthathletics]

Yes, we do face an "existential threat"...to our democracy.
Is that a greater threat than all other threats? Nuclear war? Climate crisis?

I dunno, I'm willing to walk and chew gum, but it's way, way more serious than many would prefer...because they really don't care about the principles of democracy, all they care about is power and privilege for themselves. 40% of Republicans say they are willing to commit violence against their government, if they're not in power...power by whatever means necessary...85% say that Biden was not elected in a fair and accurate election. They believe the Big Lie.

And the way our social media and overall media landscape has balkanized, there really is the possibility that our divisions increase, not heal.

But sure, there's indeed hyper-partisan over reach from the left as well, a major contributing to factor to those divisions...However, I just don't see the same threat to democracy coming from that direction at this point.

It'll get better, we are country that always advances. We don't need all this negative-nelly crap. Sure we can talk about, but no need to talk it in to existence.

I, too, like to think positively...but I thought that the aftermath of Jan 6 was going to a major shift to the positive, leading to a rejection by the GOP, my party, of the worst impulses embraced and led by Trump, and a return to some sort of rational competition for voter support based on ideas and proposed solutions, not complete lies, fear and resentment.

Painfully, those worst impulses appear to have only grown stronger in the formal GOP and in the hardening of their base voters. It's really weird IMO, but I don't think we can pretend it away.

Now, I'd been predicting the autocratic impulses to worsen during the Trump Presidency, so I wasn't actually surprised, though horrified, by how it seemed to culminate in a crescendo down the final stretch...but I'd really hav thought that the spell would be broken...but it hasn't been.

So, was that just the beginning of something much worse?

I heard Adam Kinzinger speaking in detail about 6JAN last week and yesterday. We are coming out of the fog, we just have a handful of people that need a kick in the ass.

You'll have to remember why and how we got Trump....the left has not learned that lesson and continues to double down, they continually stoke the embers. I'd also encourage you to watch the 2nd setting of 60 minutes last night....good stuff is taking place.

[old salt]

White supremacists, Jan 6 participants. Voter suppressionists. Trump supporters. And those not vaccinated. And legal gun owners. And those not boosted soon enough. etc. etc.

Yes, the existential threat is right here at our doorsteps. The country's greatest threats are none other than domestic. As Kamala said this is JUST like Pearl Harbor and 9-11. And as the activity of this thread shows- some actually believe it. Historical ignorance and hyper-partisan overreach, aside.

But will it be enough to help in the mid terms?

Is the Big Lie a real thing, Do YOU believe it's a lie? Did Biden win the election or didn't he?
yes, Biden won under the covid emerg rules, put in place at the last minute. Biden may well have won anyway.

Are you comfortable with the level of buy-in by rank and file republicans that the Big Lie is, in fact, a lie??
No, that is why I want to return to pre-covid emerg election rules, so that will no longer be an issue to cast doubt.

How bout you OS? Same questions. youthathletics? tech??

..