January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

[Brooklyn]

Insurrection/sedition was the question, not whether the buildings are "representing the government"; clearly the intent of the DC attack was to prevent the peaceful transfer of power; I don't think Portland or Michigan had the same sort of intent, do you?

Republicans celebrate Jan 6 while Patriots mourn the tragedy of the day:


https://media.timesfreepress.com/img/ph ... 241877.jpg

[dislaxxic]

Inside the Feds’ Hunt for Hundreds of Capitol Riot Fugitives

Another important area of focus in the aftermath of Jan. 6 has been to identify any elected officials who may have played an active role that day. The House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, which was formed by Speaker Nancy Pelosi, a Democrat, is currently looking into any involvement or coordination in the run-up by elected officials. It has already subpoenaed a slew of politicians and members of Trumpworld, and will continue to do so in the coming weeks and months. The body does not itself have the authority to bring criminal charges against any of its targets, but can refer cases it recommends for prosecution to the Department of Justice, which will make the ultimate determination.

Public Wise, a Washington, D.C. watchdog group, is getting ready to launch its “Insurrection Index,” a searchable online database (now in beta form) of individuals and organizations linked in some way to the Capitol riot—not only those charged with crimes, but also those seen at associated rallies and events on the day of Jan. 6. Most importantly, according to Public Wise executive director Christina Baal-Owens, the index will identify those holding public office, or those now running for office, who were in any way involved with the events of Jan. 6 or any activities surrounding them, including helping to push Trump’s “Big Lie.” (The organization has so far identified nine Jan. 6-ers who have won local and state elections in the 12 months since.)

“As someone who has worked in politics for many years, I do believe that politics has a strangely short memory,” Baal-Owens told The Daily Beast. “And I share the fear that within a cycle or two, even things as egregious as putting a gallows up outside of the Capitol could be forgotten.”

Public Wise is now working to make the Insurrection Index “actionable,” which Baal-Owens hopes will keep insurrectionists and the Jan. 6-adjacent out of office or other positions of public trust.

As for those who are already there, it may be too late in many instances.

In October, Rolling Stone reported that multiple congressional Republicans were “intimately involved” in planning Trump’s so-called Stop the Steal rally that immediately preceded the violence at the Capitol. But prosecuting U.S. officials presents a Sisyphean task that few decision-makers at the Justice Department would be likely to take on, according to Dennis Franks.

“If something comes up, certainly I think they’ll look at it,” he said. “But unless there is overwhelming evidence that they were directly involved or somehow they can show that their words did incite, it’s going to be very difficult to bring charges against members of Congress, given all the political considerations—it would have to be a smoking gun type of thing.”

tick, tick, tick...

..

[dislaxxic]

Merrick Garland will give a speech on January 5th

...in (at least) the larger conspiracies, there have been a lot of plea discussions going on behind the scenes, if not hidden cooperators. Certainly in the wake of five decisions upholding the obstruction application (including in the main Oath Keeper conspiracy, in the Ronnie Sandlin conspiracy, and by Tim Kelly, who is presiding over three of the Proud Boy conspiracies), we should expect some movement. I expect there will be some consolidation in the Proud Boy cases. The Texas case and some other Proud Boy defendants have to be indicted.

Importantly, too, these conspiracies all link up to other key players. For example, Roger Stone, Ali Alexander, and Alex Jones coordinated closely with the Proud Boy and Oath Keeper conspirators. The state-level conspiracies are most interesting for local power brokers and the elected officials with whom these conspirators networked — like Ted Cruz in the case of the Texas alleged conspirators or Morton Irvine Smith in the SoCal 3%er.

The utility of conspiracy charges lies in the way they can turn associates against each other and network others into the crime. Prosecutors love to use secrecy and paranoia to increase that utility.

Coup d'etat. 2022 may well be a very interesting year for the criminal Orange Cheeto...

..

[cradleandshoot]

It's a conspiracy cradle...Pelosi and Pence were in cahoots and wanted the rednecks to break into the building and threaten everyone's lives, heck they wanted to be martyrs...apparently, it was a huge error to shoot a first amendment protestor climbing through a window, spoiled the plan...

The sad part is that some people would believe what you are saying. IMO the answer is much more simple. The government did not see bad people crashing planes into our buildings. 20 years later our government never thought our own people would assault our own capital. In failing to prepare we have prepared to fail. If no other lesson was learned maybe this will be the last time any enraged horde of angry people ever choose to or be allowed to assault our capital building. It sounds like you have a wonderful relaxing cruise. My wife and I hope to do a Mediterranean cruise next year. Spain and Southern Italy are two places we want to see.

They had the whole prior summer to bone up on handling mob violence. They did learn how to keep people in indefinite detention, as opposed to bailing them out to take another run at a cop or two.

Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying they grabbed up some MAGA folks as they entered DC with guns (true) and didn't let them out in time to participate on Jan 6?

Otherwise, I didn't see a whole lot of success in how any of the violence was handled, whether in Portland with Antifa-sorts, or in Michigan with the overrun of that capitol by MAGA-types, did you? Or any place else?

Certainly Trump's photo op display of force against a BLM group that prior summer was unwarranted and backfired, so that didn't exactly pave the way.

It's very easy to say, in retrospect, that the Feds and police should have been far more out in force to turn back the MAGA mob and not get overrun, no matter which way they turned, but we're talking 10,000 + MAGA sorts...

Seems to me that cradle is at least partly correct that many failed to recognize the actual seriousness of a MAGA mob, directly incited by the POTUS himself, and prior organized/prepared for action by actual seditionists...a 'failure of imagination"? maybe. It's indeed hard to imagine a President actually inciting a mob and, if not actually intending violence when saying "fight like hell or there won't be a country to fight for', and then failing to publicly denounce the violence ASAP...hard to imagine that scenario, that's for sure.

That said, some of us common folks were warning that the MAGA folks were definitely capable of violence that day. The Big Lie was incredibly motivating. So, not entirely unimaginable...and sure sounds like the acting DOJ AG saw the potential for domestic terrorist violence as well.

But here's the thing, we're still refusing to sufficiently 'imagine' the capacities of these MAGA folks.

Any violence that day was abhorrent. Yet somehow, no one has been charged with insurrection. Very few guns were confiscated, if any. How many people arrested for violence? How many arrested for milling around? How many non-violent people clubbed and beaten. How many protesters dead? How many security forces charged with any crime? It's ok to stand back and watch if it's just some business or just a lowly police station or courthouse. Guns and clubs are reserved for your political opposition. Pass me a banana.

You're still leaving me confused as to what you're saying.

Insurrection/sedition is a difficult to prove charge, but stay tuned.

727 of the mob have been charged so far...that's less than 10% of the mob, but it's a sizable portion of those who actually broke into the building and/or were otherwise identifiable as committing violence. No one to our knowledge has been charged who didn't provably break the law.

But it's not yet the real organizers and inciters of sedition.

I'm not aware of ANY non-violent people "clubbed and beaten" unless you mean the police who got beaten on? The front lines of that mob coming into hard contact with the police were ALL violent and participating in that violence. None of that front line could claim otherwise. But, sure, lots of other people there in the mob (like my brother in law) likely never participated in any of the violence, though their presence and exhortations were part of that mob mentality.

One protestor died, shot climbing through a broken window, mere yards away from Congress reps and staff. Officer found to be doing his duty, fully cleared.

Re guns, it's illegal to carry weapons in DC, only a few people were arrested, mostly in the days prior, for that offense, though there was the guy with the van full of weapons...the bomb makers haven't been discovered yet. The intelligence on the guns was that those who were communicating about preparing for the violence decided to not carry guns, given the automatic charge for getting caught with a gun, and instead counseled one another on the use of handheld, makeshift weapons...which is what they came prepared to do...along with tactical protective gear...prepared for violence.

If it was a Fed Court House in Portland, or a Police Station in Seattle or Minneapolis, it would have been ok to let the Capitol be looted & burned.

Presidential elections are certified by congress and VP of the United States of America in those cities? But I know what you mean

So these federal government buildings are excluded from actually representing the government because they are not responsible for validating the next POTUS?? You sound... hold the phone, I can't repeat your own words to you without it being considered a personal attack.

Insurrection/sedition was the question, not whether the buildings are "representing the government"; clearly the intent of the DC attack was to prevent the peaceful transfer of power; I don't think Portland or Michigan had the same sort of intent, do you?

You may appreciate this MD and understand the relevance. My oldest son changed careers in federal law enforcement. He switched from being a FAM to being a postal inspector working out of the office in Philly. I bet NONE of you folks out there in Fan lax land have ever heard of the threat to the USPS over counterfeit postage stamps. Why print up fake 20s when printing up billions of 1st class postage stamps is so easy to do. Everybody looks at their money, how many of you look at your postage stamps??? Food for thought for all of you folks out there on this forum. Are these people also guilty of insurrection/sedition?? Their goal and intent is to undermine the US government. You don't have to try and reverse an election to be a threat to this country.

[cradleandshoot]

Merrick Garland will give a speech on January 5th

...in (at least) the larger conspiracies, there have been a lot of plea discussions going on behind the scenes, if not hidden cooperators. Certainly in the wake of five decisions upholding the obstruction application (including in the main Oath Keeper conspiracy, in the Ronnie Sandlin conspiracy, and by Tim Kelly, who is presiding over three of the Proud Boy conspiracies), we should expect some movement. I expect there will be some consolidation in the Proud Boy cases. The Texas case and some other Proud Boy defendants have to be indicted.

Importantly, too, these conspiracies all link up to other key players. For example, Roger Stone, Ali Alexander, and Alex Jones coordinated closely with the Proud Boy and Oath Keeper conspirators. The state-level conspiracies are most interesting for local power brokers and the elected officials with whom these conspirators networked — like Ted Cruz in the case of the Texas alleged conspirators or Morton Irvine Smith in the SoCal 3%er.

The utility of conspiracy charges lies in the way they can turn associates against each other and network others into the crime. Prosecutors love to use secrecy and paranoia to increase that utility.

Coup d'etat. 2022 may well be a very interesting year for the criminal Orange Cheeto...

..

Who gives a flying fig about Garland or anything he has to say... outside of yourself..

[MDlaxfan76]

It's a conspiracy cradle...Pelosi and Pence were in cahoots and wanted the rednecks to break into the building and threaten everyone's lives, heck they wanted to be martyrs...apparently, it was a huge error to shoot a first amendment protestor climbing through a window, spoiled the plan...

The sad part is that some people would believe what you are saying. IMO the answer is much more simple. The government did not see bad people crashing planes into our buildings. 20 years later our government never thought our own people would assault our own capital. In failing to prepare we have prepared to fail. If no other lesson was learned maybe this will be the last time any enraged horde of angry people ever choose to or be allowed to assault our capital building. It sounds like you have a wonderful relaxing cruise. My wife and I hope to do a Mediterranean cruise next year. Spain and Southern Italy are two places we want to see.

They had the whole prior summer to bone up on handling mob violence. They did learn how to keep people in indefinite detention, as opposed to bailing them out to take another run at a cop or two.

Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying they grabbed up some MAGA folks as they entered DC with guns (true) and didn't let them out in time to participate on Jan 6?

Otherwise, I didn't see a whole lot of success in how any of the violence was handled, whether in Portland with Antifa-sorts, or in Michigan with the overrun of that capitol by MAGA-types, did you? Or any place else?

Certainly Trump's photo op display of force against a BLM group that prior summer was unwarranted and backfired, so that didn't exactly pave the way.

It's very easy to say, in retrospect, that the Feds and police should have been far more out in force to turn back the MAGA mob and not get overrun, no matter which way they turned, but we're talking 10,000 + MAGA sorts...

Seems to me that cradle is at least partly correct that many failed to recognize the actual seriousness of a MAGA mob, directly incited by the POTUS himself, and prior organized/prepared for action by actual seditionists...a 'failure of imagination"? maybe. It's indeed hard to imagine a President actually inciting a mob and, if not actually intending violence when saying "fight like hell or there won't be a country to fight for', and then failing to publicly denounce the violence ASAP...hard to imagine that scenario, that's for sure.

That said, some of us common folks were warning that the MAGA folks were definitely capable of violence that day. The Big Lie was incredibly motivating. So, not entirely unimaginable...and sure sounds like the acting DOJ AG saw the potential for domestic terrorist violence as well.

But here's the thing, we're still refusing to sufficiently 'imagine' the capacities of these MAGA folks.

Any violence that day was abhorrent. Yet somehow, no one has been charged with insurrection. Very few guns were confiscated, if any. How many people arrested for violence? How many arrested for milling around? How many non-violent people clubbed and beaten. How many protesters dead? How many security forces charged with any crime? It's ok to stand back and watch if it's just some business or just a lowly police station or courthouse. Guns and clubs are reserved for your political opposition. Pass me a banana.

You're still leaving me confused as to what you're saying.

Insurrection/sedition is a difficult to prove charge, but stay tuned.

727 of the mob have been charged so far...that's less than 10% of the mob, but it's a sizable portion of those who actually broke into the building and/or were otherwise identifiable as committing violence. No one to our knowledge has been charged who didn't provably break the law.

But it's not yet the real organizers and inciters of sedition.

I'm not aware of ANY non-violent people "clubbed and beaten" unless you mean the police who got beaten on? The front lines of that mob coming into hard contact with the police were ALL violent and participating in that violence. None of that front line could claim otherwise. But, sure, lots of other people there in the mob (like my brother in law) likely never participated in any of the violence, though their presence and exhortations were part of that mob mentality.

One protestor died, shot climbing through a broken window, mere yards away from Congress reps and staff. Officer found to be doing his duty, fully cleared.

Re guns, it's illegal to carry weapons in DC, only a few people were arrested, mostly in the days prior, for that offense, though there was the guy with the van full of weapons...the bomb makers haven't been discovered yet. The intelligence on the guns was that those who were communicating about preparing for the violence decided to not carry guns, given the automatic charge for getting caught with a gun, and instead counseled one another on the use of handheld, makeshift weapons...which is what they came prepared to do...along with tactical protective gear...prepared for violence.

If it was a Fed Court House in Portland, or a Police Station in Seattle or Minneapolis, it would have been ok to let the Capitol be looted & burned.

Presidential elections are certified by congress and VP of the United States of America in those cities? But I know what you mean

So these federal government buildings are excluded from actually representing the government because they are not responsible for validating the next POTUS?? You sound... hold the phone, I can't repeat your own words to you without it being considered a personal attack.

Insurrection/sedition was the question, not whether the buildings are "representing the government"; clearly the intent of the DC attack was to prevent the peaceful transfer of power; I don't think Portland or Michigan had the same sort of intent, do you?

You may appreciate this MD and understand the relevance. My oldest son changed careers in federal law enforcement. He switched from being a FAM to being a postal inspector working out of the office in Philly. I bet NONE of you folks out there in Fan lax land have ever heard of the threat to the USPS over counterfeit postage stamps. Why print up fake 20s when printing up billions of 1st class postage stamps is so easy to do. Everybody looks at their money, how many of you look at your postage stamps??? Food for thought for all of you folks out there on this forum. Are these people also guilty of insurrection/sedition?? Their goal and intent is to undermine the US government. You don't have to try and reverse an election to be a threat to this country.

I certainly agree with the bolded above.

Interesting, but I'd have assumed the purpose of the fraud was $, not insurrection.

Are there cases where the actual intent is the overthrow of the government?
Sounds pretty unlikely.
Much more likely that the intent is pecuniary.

But sure, there are all sorts of crimes one can commit, damaging to the health and wellbeing of this country and its citizens.

Not the same, though, as the overthrow of the duly elected government.

[MDlaxfan76]

Merrick Garland will give a speech on January 5th

...in (at least) the larger conspiracies, there have been a lot of plea discussions going on behind the scenes, if not hidden cooperators. Certainly in the wake of five decisions upholding the obstruction application (including in the main Oath Keeper conspiracy, in the Ronnie Sandlin conspiracy, and by Tim Kelly, who is presiding over three of the Proud Boy conspiracies), we should expect some movement. I expect there will be some consolidation in the Proud Boy cases. The Texas case and some other Proud Boy defendants have to be indicted.

Importantly, too, these conspiracies all link up to other key players. For example, Roger Stone, Ali Alexander, and Alex Jones coordinated closely with the Proud Boy and Oath Keeper conspirators. The state-level conspiracies are most interesting for local power brokers and the elected officials with whom these conspirators networked — like Ted Cruz in the case of the Texas alleged conspirators or Morton Irvine Smith in the SoCal 3%er.

The utility of conspiracy charges lies in the way they can turn associates against each other and network others into the crime. Prosecutors love to use secrecy and paranoia to increase that utility.

Coup d'etat. 2022 may well be a very interesting year for the criminal Orange Cheeto...

..

Who gives a flying fig about Garland or anything he has to say... outside of yourself..

I do...most people would, I'd think.

[kramerica.inc]

Merrick Garland will give a speech on January 5th

...in (at least) the larger conspiracies, there have been a lot of plea discussions going on behind the scenes, if not hidden cooperators. Certainly in the wake of five decisions upholding the obstruction application (including in the main Oath Keeper conspiracy, in the Ronnie Sandlin conspiracy, and by Tim Kelly, who is presiding over three of the Proud Boy conspiracies), we should expect some movement. I expect there will be some consolidation in the Proud Boy cases. The Texas case and some other Proud Boy defendants have to be indicted.

Importantly, too, these conspiracies all link up to other key players. For example, Roger Stone, Ali Alexander, and Alex Jones coordinated closely with the Proud Boy and Oath Keeper conspirators. The state-level conspiracies are most interesting for local power brokers and the elected officials with whom these conspirators networked — like Ted Cruz in the case of the Texas alleged conspirators or Morton Irvine Smith in the SoCal 3%er.

The utility of conspiracy charges lies in the way they can turn associates against each other and network others into the crime. Prosecutors love to use secrecy and paranoia to increase that utility.

Coup d'etat. 2022 may well be a very interesting year for the criminal Orange Cheeto...

..

Who gives a flying fig about Garland or anything he has to say... outside of yourself..

No one, really. Maybe those on the left who are feigning concern about this? This whole ordeal is trending to be exactly like the Mueller Investigation and Trump Impeachment #1- Lots of hand wringing from the left, grand speculation, with an eventual ineffective and underwhelming final result.

[youthathletics]

Merrick Garland will give a speech on January 5th

...in (at least) the larger conspiracies, there have been a lot of plea discussions going on behind the scenes, if not hidden cooperators. Certainly in the wake of five decisions upholding the obstruction application (including in the main Oath Keeper conspiracy, in the Ronnie Sandlin conspiracy, and by Tim Kelly, who is presiding over three of the Proud Boy conspiracies), we should expect some movement. I expect there will be some consolidation in the Proud Boy cases. The Texas case and some other Proud Boy defendants have to be indicted.

Importantly, too, these conspiracies all link up to other key players. For example, Roger Stone, Ali Alexander, and Alex Jones coordinated closely with the Proud Boy and Oath Keeper conspirators. The state-level conspiracies are most interesting for local power brokers and the elected officials with whom these conspirators networked — like Ted Cruz in the case of the Texas alleged conspirators or Morton Irvine Smith in the SoCal 3%er.

The utility of conspiracy charges lies in the way they can turn associates against each other and network others into the crime. Prosecutors love to use secrecy and paranoia to increase that utility.

Coup d'etat. 2022 may well be a very interesting year for the criminal Orange Cheeto...

..

Who gives a flying fig about Garland or anything he has to say... outside of yourself..

This whole ordeal is trending to be exactly like the Mueller Investigation and Trump Impeachment #1- Lots of hand wringing from the left, grand speculation, with an eventual ineffective and underwhelming final result.

How darrre you....in my Greta voice. The crescendo will be prolonged as long as possible, in order to maintain election persuasion.

[cradleandshoot]

Merrick Garland will give a speech on January 5th

...in (at least) the larger conspiracies, there have been a lot of plea discussions going on behind the scenes, if not hidden cooperators. Certainly in the wake of five decisions upholding the obstruction application (including in the main Oath Keeper conspiracy, in the Ronnie Sandlin conspiracy, and by Tim Kelly, who is presiding over three of the Proud Boy conspiracies), we should expect some movement. I expect there will be some consolidation in the Proud Boy cases. The Texas case and some other Proud Boy defendants have to be indicted.

Importantly, too, these conspiracies all link up to other key players. For example, Roger Stone, Ali Alexander, and Alex Jones coordinated closely with the Proud Boy and Oath Keeper conspirators. The state-level conspiracies are most interesting for local power brokers and the elected officials with whom these conspirators networked — like Ted Cruz in the case of the Texas alleged conspirators or Morton Irvine Smith in the SoCal 3%er.

The utility of conspiracy charges lies in the way they can turn associates against each other and network others into the crime. Prosecutors love to use secrecy and paranoia to increase that utility.

Coup d'etat. 2022 may well be a very interesting year for the criminal Orange Cheeto...

..

Who gives a flying fig about Garland or anything he has to say... outside of yourself..

I do...most people would, I'd think.

My bad, I was being facetious. I'm more than happy to listen to Garland and then eviscerate him in the same manner AG Barr was on this forum. The content of your character means diddly squat if you serve a POTUS that is not popular. As far as Garland is concerned, he is the Mr Rogers of AGs. His calm soothing voice and very low key manner are cover for a man who is a FLP ideologue. It is better this guy serves a few years as the AG than 20 years on the SCOTUS. He should have been given an up or down vote for the SCOTUS. That vote should have been NO... highly unqualified to sit on the SCOTUS. His performance so far as AG is proof of that.

[cradleandshoot]

Merrick Garland will give a speech on January 5th

...in (at least) the larger conspiracies, there have been a lot of plea discussions going on behind the scenes, if not hidden cooperators. Certainly in the wake of five decisions upholding the obstruction application (including in the main Oath Keeper conspiracy, in the Ronnie Sandlin conspiracy, and by Tim Kelly, who is presiding over three of the Proud Boy conspiracies), we should expect some movement. I expect there will be some consolidation in the Proud Boy cases. The Texas case and some other Proud Boy defendants have to be indicted.

Importantly, too, these conspiracies all link up to other key players. For example, Roger Stone, Ali Alexander, and Alex Jones coordinated closely with the Proud Boy and Oath Keeper conspirators. The state-level conspiracies are most interesting for local power brokers and the elected officials with whom these conspirators networked — like Ted Cruz in the case of the Texas alleged conspirators or Morton Irvine Smith in the SoCal 3%er.

The utility of conspiracy charges lies in the way they can turn associates against each other and network others into the crime. Prosecutors love to use secrecy and paranoia to increase that utility.

Coup d'etat. 2022 may well be a very interesting year for the criminal Orange Cheeto...

..

Who gives a flying fig about Garland or anything he has to say... outside of yourself..

This whole ordeal is trending to be exactly like the Mueller Investigation and Trump Impeachment #1- Lots of hand wringing from the left, grand speculation, with an eventual ineffective and underwhelming final result.

How darrre you....in my Greta voice. The crescendo will be prolonged as long as possible, in order to maintain election persuasion.

[MDlaxfan76]

Possibly.

I think it's a big reach at this point to actually convict those most responsible for inciting the violence.

Which makes it no less important to fully investigate and understand...and if the evidence is sufficiently clear, to prosecute and convict.

[kramerica.inc]

Merrick Garland will give a speech on January 5th

...in (at least) the larger conspiracies, there have been a lot of plea discussions going on behind the scenes, if not hidden cooperators. Certainly in the wake of five decisions upholding the obstruction application (including in the main Oath Keeper conspiracy, in the Ronnie Sandlin conspiracy, and by Tim Kelly, who is presiding over three of the Proud Boy conspiracies), we should expect some movement. I expect there will be some consolidation in the Proud Boy cases. The Texas case and some other Proud Boy defendants have to be indicted.

Importantly, too, these conspiracies all link up to other key players. For example, Roger Stone, Ali Alexander, and Alex Jones coordinated closely with the Proud Boy and Oath Keeper conspirators. The state-level conspiracies are most interesting for local power brokers and the elected officials with whom these conspirators networked — like Ted Cruz in the case of the Texas alleged conspirators or Morton Irvine Smith in the SoCal 3%er.

The utility of conspiracy charges lies in the way they can turn associates against each other and network others into the crime. Prosecutors love to use secrecy and paranoia to increase that utility.

Coup d'etat. 2022 may well be a very interesting year for the criminal Orange Cheeto...

..

Who gives a flying fig about Garland or anything he has to say... outside of yourself..

This whole ordeal is trending to be exactly like the Mueller Investigation and Trump Impeachment #1- Lots of hand wringing from the left, grand speculation, with an eventual ineffective and underwhelming final result.

How darrre you....in my Greta voice. The crescendo will be prolonged as long as possible, in order to maintain election persuasion.

Indeed. The attempted gaslighting from the left that "this was significant" will continue, even without any major findings.

[a fan]

Merrick Garland will give a speech on January 5th

...in (at least) the larger conspiracies, there have been a lot of plea discussions going on behind the scenes, if not hidden cooperators. Certainly in the wake of five decisions upholding the obstruction application (including in the main Oath Keeper conspiracy, in the Ronnie Sandlin conspiracy, and by Tim Kelly, who is presiding over three of the Proud Boy conspiracies), we should expect some movement. I expect there will be some consolidation in the Proud Boy cases. The Texas case and some other Proud Boy defendants have to be indicted.

Importantly, too, these conspiracies all link up to other key players. For example, Roger Stone, Ali Alexander, and Alex Jones coordinated closely with the Proud Boy and Oath Keeper conspirators. The state-level conspiracies are most interesting for local power brokers and the elected officials with whom these conspirators networked — like Ted Cruz in the case of the Texas alleged conspirators or Morton Irvine Smith in the SoCal 3%er.

The utility of conspiracy charges lies in the way they can turn associates against each other and network others into the crime. Prosecutors love to use secrecy and paranoia to increase that utility.

Coup d'etat. 2022 may well be a very interesting year for the criminal Orange Cheeto...

..

Who gives a flying fig about Garland or anything he has to say... outside of yourself..

This whole ordeal is trending to be exactly like the Mueller Investigation and Trump Impeachment #1- Lots of hand wringing from the left, grand speculation, with an eventual ineffective and underwhelming final result.

How darrre you....in my Greta voice. The crescendo will be prolonged as long as possible, in order to maintain election persuasion.

Indeed. The attempted gaslighting from the left that "this was significant" will continue, even without any major findings.

Rioters broke into our Capitol, Kram, while Congress was in session. Yeah, totally no big deal.

Of course, the REASON it didn't seem as big of a deal is what the police did.....they let them right in.

If they had done their jobs, stood their ground, and emptied clips? You'd have an entirely different appreciation for what happened.

We are VERY lucky as a nation that those men and women guarding the Capitol did the right thing....the wise thing.

But I'm sorry, that doesn't make what those idiots did "no big deal", Kram.

[cradleandshoot]

It's a conspiracy cradle...Pelosi and Pence were in cahoots and wanted the rednecks to break into the building and threaten everyone's lives, heck they wanted to be martyrs...apparently, it was a huge error to shoot a first amendment protestor climbing through a window, spoiled the plan...

The sad part is that some people would believe what you are saying. IMO the answer is much more simple. The government did not see bad people crashing planes into our buildings. 20 years later our government never thought our own people would assault our own capital. In failing to prepare we have prepared to fail. If no other lesson was learned maybe this will be the last time any enraged horde of angry people ever choose to or be allowed to assault our capital building. It sounds like you have a wonderful relaxing cruise. My wife and I hope to do a Mediterranean cruise next year. Spain and Southern Italy are two places we want to see.

They had the whole prior summer to bone up on handling mob violence. They did learn how to keep people in indefinite detention, as opposed to bailing them out to take another run at a cop or two.

Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying they grabbed up some MAGA folks as they entered DC with guns (true) and didn't let them out in time to participate on Jan 6?

Otherwise, I didn't see a whole lot of success in how any of the violence was handled, whether in Portland with Antifa-sorts, or in Michigan with the overrun of that capitol by MAGA-types, did you? Or any place else?

Certainly Trump's photo op display of force against a BLM group that prior summer was unwarranted and backfired, so that didn't exactly pave the way.

It's very easy to say, in retrospect, that the Feds and police should have been far more out in force to turn back the MAGA mob and not get overrun, no matter which way they turned, but we're talking 10,000 + MAGA sorts...

Seems to me that cradle is at least partly correct that many failed to recognize the actual seriousness of a MAGA mob, directly incited by the POTUS himself, and prior organized/prepared for action by actual seditionists...a 'failure of imagination"? maybe. It's indeed hard to imagine a President actually inciting a mob and, if not actually intending violence when saying "fight like hell or there won't be a country to fight for', and then failing to publicly denounce the violence ASAP...hard to imagine that scenario, that's for sure.

That said, some of us common folks were warning that the MAGA folks were definitely capable of violence that day. The Big Lie was incredibly motivating. So, not entirely unimaginable...and sure sounds like the acting DOJ AG saw the potential for domestic terrorist violence as well.

But here's the thing, we're still refusing to sufficiently 'imagine' the capacities of these MAGA folks.

Any violence that day was abhorrent. Yet somehow, no one has been charged with insurrection. Very few guns were confiscated, if any. How many people arrested for violence? How many arrested for milling around? How many non-violent people clubbed and beaten. How many protesters dead? How many security forces charged with any crime? It's ok to stand back and watch if it's just some business or just a lowly police station or courthouse. Guns and clubs are reserved for your political opposition. Pass me a banana.

You're still leaving me confused as to what you're saying.

Insurrection/sedition is a difficult to prove charge, but stay tuned.

727 of the mob have been charged so far...that's less than 10% of the mob, but it's a sizable portion of those who actually broke into the building and/or were otherwise identifiable as committing violence. No one to our knowledge has been charged who didn't provably break the law.

But it's not yet the real organizers and inciters of sedition.

I'm not aware of ANY non-violent people "clubbed and beaten" unless you mean the police who got beaten on? The front lines of that mob coming into hard contact with the police were ALL violent and participating in that violence. None of that front line could claim otherwise. But, sure, lots of other people there in the mob (like my brother in law) likely never participated in any of the violence, though their presence and exhortations were part of that mob mentality.

One protestor died, shot climbing through a broken window, mere yards away from Congress reps and staff. Officer found to be doing his duty, fully cleared.

Re guns, it's illegal to carry weapons in DC, only a few people were arrested, mostly in the days prior, for that offense, though there was the guy with the van full of weapons...the bomb makers haven't been discovered yet. The intelligence on the guns was that those who were communicating about preparing for the violence decided to not carry guns, given the automatic charge for getting caught with a gun, and instead counseled one another on the use of handheld, makeshift weapons...which is what they came prepared to do...along with tactical protective gear...prepared for violence.

If it was a Fed Court House in Portland, or a Police Station in Seattle or Minneapolis, it would have been ok to let the Capitol be looted & burned.

Presidential elections are certified by congress and VP of the United States of America in those cities? But I know what you mean

So these federal government buildings are excluded from actually representing the government because they are not responsible for validating the next POTUS?? You sound... hold the phone, I can't repeat your own words to you without it being considered a personal attack.

Insurrection/sedition was the question, not whether the buildings are "representing the government"; clearly the intent of the DC attack was to prevent the peaceful transfer of power; I don't think Portland or Michigan had the same sort of intent, do you?

You may appreciate this MD and understand the relevance. My oldest son changed careers in federal law enforcement. He switched from being a FAM to being a postal inspector working out of the office in Philly. I bet NONE of you folks out there in Fan lax land have ever heard of the threat to the USPS over counterfeit postage stamps. Why print up fake 20s when printing up billions of 1st class postage stamps is so easy to do. Everybody looks at their money, how many of you look at your postage stamps??? Food for thought for all of you folks out there on this forum. Are these people also guilty of insurrection/sedition?? Their goal and intent is to undermine the US government. You don't have to try and reverse an election to be a threat to this country.

I certainly agree with the bolded above.

Interesting, but I'd have assumed the purpose of the fraud was $, not insurrection.

Are there cases where the actual intent is the overthrow of the government?
Sounds pretty unlikely.
Much more likely that the intent is pecuniary.

But sure, there are all sorts of crimes one can commit, damaging to the health and wellbeing of this country and its citizens.

Not the same, though, as the overthrow of the duly elected government.

US Postage is money. Postage stamps as of today are easy to fake. The secret service dedicates enormous resources to protecting our paper money. The postal service also dedicates enormous resources to protecting mail service. Until my son pointed this out to me, i never knew it was a problem. Enough fake postage could bankrupt the USPS. Most US citizens are not even aware it is a problem. The government takes it very seriously. Easy to find a fake 20. It is almost impossible to spot a fake stamp on a letter. when there are billions of them out there in circulation do the math.

[RedFromMI]

Trump Isn’t the Only One to Blame for the Capitol Riot

Jan. 4, 2022

By Osita Nwanevu

Mr. Nwanevu, a journalist, has covered the assault on voting rights in Texas and elsewhere. He is writing a book about American democracy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/04/opin ... -riot.html

In December 1972, the critic Pauline Kael famously admitted that she’d been living in a political bubble. “I only know one person who voted for Nixon,” she said. “Where they are, I don’t know. They’re outside my ken.” A pithier version of her quote (“I can’t believe Nixon won. I don’t know anyone who voted for him.”) has been used to exemplify liberal insularity ever since, both by conservative pundits and by the kind of centrist journalists who have spent the past several years buzzing in the ears of heartland diner patrons, looking for clues about Donald Trump’s rise.

The most important fact about the Trump era, though, can be gleaned simply by examining his vote tallies and approval ratings: At no point in his political career — not a single day — has Mr. Trump enjoyed the support of the majority of the country he governed for four years. And whatever else Jan. 6 might have been, it should be understood first and foremost as an expression of disbelief in — or at least a rejection of — that reality. Rather than accepting, in defeat, that much more of their country lay outside their ken than they’d known, his supporters proclaimed themselves victors and threw a deadly and historic tantrum.

The riot was an attack on our institutions, and of course, inflammatory conservative rhetoric and social media bear some of the blame. But our institutions also helped produce that violent outburst by building a sense of entitlement to power within America’s conservative minority.

The structural advantages that conservatives enjoy in our electoral system are well known. Twice already this young century, the Republican Party has won the Electoral College and thus the presidency while losing the popular vote. Republicans in the Senate haven’t represented a majority of Americans since the 1990s, yet they’ve controlled the chamber for roughly half of the past 20 years. In 2012 the party kept control of the House even though Democrats won more votes.

And as is now painfully clear to Democratic voters, their party faces significant barriers to success in Washington even when it manages to secure full control of government: The supermajority requirement imposed by the Senate filibuster can stall even wildly popular legislation, and Republicans have stacked the judiciary so successfully that the Supreme Court seems poised to overturn Roe v. Wade, an outcome that around 60 percent of the American people oppose, according to several recent polls. Obviously, none of the structural features of our federal system were designed with contemporary politics and the Republican Party in mind. But they are clearly giving a set of Americans who have taken strongly to conservative ideology — rural voters in sparsely populated states in the middle of the country — more power than the rest of the electorate.

With these structural advantages in place, it’s not especially difficult to see how the right came to view dramatic political losses, when they do occur, as suspect. If the basic mechanics of the federal system were as fair and balanced as we’re taught they are, the extent and duration of conservative power would reflect the legitimate preferences of most Americans. Democratic victories, by contrast, now seem to the right like underhanded usurpations of the will of the majority — in President Biden’s case, by fraud and foreign voters, and in Barack Obama’s, by a candidate who was himself a foreign imposition on the true American people.

But the federal system is neither fair nor balanced. Rather than democratic give and take between two parties that share the burden of winning over the other side, we have one favored party and another whose effortful victories against ever-lengthening odds are conspiratorially framed as the skulduggery of schemers who can win only through fraud and covert plans to import a new electorate. It doesn’t help that Republican advantages partly insulate the party from public reproach; demagogy is more likely to spread among politicians if there are few electoral consequences. This is a recipe for political violence. Jan. 6 wasn’t the first or the deadliest attack to stem from the idea that Democrats are working to force their will on a nonexistent conservative political and cultural majority. We have no reason to expect it will be the last.

And while much of the language Republican politicians and commentators use to incite their base seems outwardly extreme, it’s important to remember that what was done on Jan. 6 was done in the name of the Constitution, as most Republican voters now understand it — an eternal compact that keeps power in their rightful hands. Tellingly, during his Jan. 6 rally, Mr. Trump cannily deployed some of the language Democrats have used to decry voting restrictions and foreign interference. “Now it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy,” he said. “I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard. Today we will see whether Republicans stand strong for the integrity of our elections.”

The mainstream press has also had a hand in inflating the right’s sense of itself. Habits like the misrepresentation of Republican voters and operatives as swing voters plucked off the street and the constant, reductive blather about political homogeneity on the coasts — despite the fact that there were more Trump voters in New York City in 2016 and 2020 than there were in both Dakotas combined — create distorted impressions of our political landscape. The tendency of journalists to measure the wisdom of policies and rhetoric based on their distance from the preferences of conservative voters only reinforces the idea that it’s fair for politicians, activists and voters on the left to take the reddest parts of the country into account without the right taking a reciprocal interest in what most Americans want.

That premise still dominates and constrains strategic thinking within the Democratic Party. A year after the Capitol attack and all the rent garments and tears about the right’s radicalism and the democratic process, the party has failed to deliver promised political reforms, thanks to opposition from pivotal members of its own Senate caucus — Democrats who argue that significantly changing our system would alienate Republicans.

Given demographic trends, power in Washington will likely continue accruing to Republicans even if the right doesn’t undertake further efforts to subvert our elections. And to fix the structural biases at work, Democrats would have to either attempt the impossible task of securing broad, bipartisan support for major new amendments to the Constitution — which, it should be said, essentially bars changes to the Senate’s basic design — or pass a set of system-rebalancing workarounds, such as admitting new states ⁠like the District of Columbia. It should never be forgotten that fully enfranchised voters from around the country gathered to stage a riot over their supposedly threatened political rights last January in a city of 700,000 people who don’t have a full vote in Congress.

Jan. 6 demonstrated that the choice the country now faces isn’t one between disruptive changes to our political system and a peaceable status quo. To believe otherwise is to indulge the other big lie that drew violence to the Capitol in the first place. The notion that the 18th-century American constitutional order is suited to governance in the 21st is as preposterous and dangerous as anything Mr. Trump has ever uttered. It was the supposedly stabilizing features of our vaunted system that made him president to begin with and incubated the extremism that turned his departure into a crisis.

Osita Nwanevu (@OsitaNwanevu) is a contributing editor at The New Republic and the author of a regular newsletter about American politics. His first book, “The Right of the People: Democracy and the Case for a New American Founding,” will be published by Random House.

[RedFromMI]

Navarro Details How He And Bannon Lobbied Trump To Subvert The Election In The Run-Up To Jan. 6

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/nava ... on-results

Former White House trade adviser Peter Navarro has been going into great detail about his efforts, assisted by Steve Bannon, to get former President Trump’s election fraud falsehoods off the ground in late 2020 and January 2021. The latest comes in interviews with The Daily Beast and Rolling Stone.

Navarro detailed his role in crafting a plan dubbed the “Green Bay Sweep,” named after a daring football play run by the NFL’s Packers. The scheme, concocted by Navarro and Bannon, was partially realized — an effort to get Republican members of Congress to block the Electoral College vote count by calling on sitting members of Congress during the Jan. 6 joint session of Congress to object to the counting of votes from six battleground states. Each state challenge, Navarro had theorized, would force four hours of debate in both chambers, with the aim of of creating a 24-hours GOP propaganda blitz that would’ve run the clock as long as possible for then-VP Mike Pence, who presided over the Senate, to delay the certification of Joe Biden’s electoral victory by sending the contested tallies back to the states.

In his memoir, published last year, Navarro outlines his close contact with Bannon in the planning of the “Green Bay Sweep.” He detailed that effort further to the Daily Beast last month, saying that it involved coordination with GOP lawmakers such as Rep. Paul Gosar (R-AZ) and Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX).

“We spent a lot of time lining up over 100 congressmen, including some senators. It started out perfectly. At 1 p.m., Gosar and Cruz did exactly what was expected of them,” Navarro told The Daily Beast. “It was a perfect plan. And it all predicated on peace and calm on Capitol Hill. We didn’t even need any protestors, because we had over 100 congressmen committed to it.”

The GOP lawmakers’ commitment to the plan played out when Cruz signed off on Gosar’s objection to counting Arizona’s electoral ballots during the Jan. 6 joint session of Congress.

Navarro and Bannon theorized that media coverage of their plan would apply more pressure on Pence to drag his feet on the electoral count.

“The Green Bay Sweep was very well thought out. It was designed to get us 24 hours of televised hearings,” Navarro told the Daily Beast. “But we thought that we could bypass the corporate media by getting this stuff televised.”

Navarro similarly detailed that plan to Rolling Stone in an interview published this week, revealing that he personally briefed Trump in the Oval Office on his so-called “research” of baseless theories boosting the Big Lie of a “stolen” 2020 presidential election. Navarro claimed that Trump directed Navarro’s findings to be distributed to all GOP lawmakers on the Hill.

Navarro’s recent interviews offers more insight into his efforts to push the Big Lie, some of which were apparent in real time.

In December 2020, Navarro circulated a report titled the “Immaculate Deception” that rehashed debunked Trump complaints about supposed election irregularities that, in the weeks before, judges had laughed out of court. Navarro also compiled other dossiers on boosting the Big Lie shortly after the election that were titled “The Art of the Steal” and “Yes, Trump Won.”

Navarro also called for the delay of the Georgia Senate runoffs in January last year (which ultimately handed Democrats a functional Senate majority) in another effort to reinforce Trump’s election fraud falsehoods.

Days before the Capitol insurrection, Navarro appeared on Fox News to further push the then-President’s voter fraud delusions by falsely proclaiming that Biden’s inauguration on Jan. 20 could be changed.

[RedFromMI]

Trump’s Big Lie Is Trashing a Major National Achievement
The 2020 election was an American triumph that set new standards despite a pandemic and civil unrest

by Shikha Dalmia

https://theunpopulist.substack.com/p/tr ... dium=email

The November 2020 election was nothing short of miraculous. It was conducted at an extraordinarily difficult time when a pandemic was raging, civil protests were erupting and the economy was nosediving. Yet it was the most accessible, safe, secure and smooth election in the country’s history.

But instead of coming together in this moment of national triumph and patting ourselves on the back for a job well done, we have become more fiercely divided than ever, thanks in part to former President Donald Trump’s accusations that the election was stolen from him—a lie he is expected to repeat at a speech on the one-year anniversary of the attempted coup on Jan. 6, which he played a major role in instigating.

More than a year after the election, 68% of Republicans still believe the election was stolen, even more than in the immediate aftermath of the Jan. 6 riot. Support for the Big Lie has become a litmus test for Republican candidates running for office. The major issue in Georgia’s Republican gubernatorial primary, for example, is which candidate peddles Trump’s voter fraud claims more.

All sides in the past have questioned the fairness of the election process when it has produced an outcome they didn’t like. They’ve groused and complained, but ultimately they accepted their fate, delivered a concession speech and, in the case of the presidency, showed up at their opponent’s inauguration. Not so with Trump, who mounted a massive subversion and disinformation campaign to discredit the 2020 outcome. And no matter how many times his claims are debunked, he refuses to back off.

The upshot is that America’s best election has become its most nastily disputed one, suggesting that the country has entered a surreal, post-modern phase where trust in its fundamental institutions has become disconnected from their integrity or performance. Reforming these institutions, therefore, is not the only or even the main challenge for restoring trust in them. The far bigger obstacle is combating the disinformation campaign against them.

An Election Miracle

There was every reason to fear that after a disastrous primary season, Election Day would be a complete debacle. The primaries saw:

· A meltdown of new voting technologies in California and Iowa, with the latter unable to even declare a clear winner in the Democratic race.

· Long lines thanks to fewer polling places in Georgia.

· Disputes over mail-in ballots in New York because the state, hilariously, waived postage stamps and so the post office didn’t postmark them, resulting in 20% of the ballots being thrown out in some precincts because of uncertainty about whether they were mailed before the deadline.

Observing these and other breakdowns, Garrett M. Graff, a historian and a writer, predicted in Politico four months before the election: “Nov. 3, even if it proceeds as scheduled, is likely to bring bureaucratic snafus and foreseeable chaos unfolding on a hundred different fronts at once, in a thousand voting precincts.”

He turned out to be wrong. But he was hardly an alarmist, given that the entire country’s election infrastructure had to be revamped on short order to deal with the pandemic, even as the pandemic made the revamp extremely difficult. Moreover, given the hot passions on both sides, this wasn’t an election that Americans were planning to sit out. So, the country also had to also expand its voting infrastructure to provide the widest possible access while avoiding creation of super-spreading hot spots and protecting against possible election-day violence.

On every front, it succeeded spectacularly.

Over 160 million Americans voted—66% of all eligible voters—the highest turnout in a century, without any major incident. (Indeed, the main super-spreading events were Trump’s campaign rallies and the Rose Garden ceremony where he unveiled Amy Coney Barrett as his Supreme Court replacement for Ruth Bader Ginsburg.) Meanwhile, not a single race has been overturned after a record number of recounts and audits.

How did America pull this off? Through an incredible outpouring of private philanthropy, citizen activism, and intricate planning by local election officials, who came up with innovative ways to adapt to a rapidly changing situation

There is much more at the link...

[Kismet]

It's a conspiracy cradle...Pelosi and Pence were in cahoots and wanted the rednecks to break into the building and threaten everyone's lives, heck they wanted to be martyrs...apparently, it was a huge error to shoot a first amendment protestor climbing through a window, spoiled the plan...

The sad part is that some people would believe what you are saying. IMO the answer is much more simple. The government did not see bad people crashing planes into our buildings. 20 years later our government never thought our own people would assault our own capital. In failing to prepare we have prepared to fail. If no other lesson was learned maybe this will be the last time any enraged horde of angry people ever choose to or be allowed to assault our capital building. It sounds like you have a wonderful relaxing cruise. My wife and I hope to do a Mediterranean cruise next year. Spain and Southern Italy are two places we want to see.

They had the whole prior summer to bone up on handling mob violence. They did learn how to keep people in indefinite detention, as opposed to bailing them out to take another run at a cop or two.

Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying they grabbed up some MAGA folks as they entered DC with guns (true) and didn't let them out in time to participate on Jan 6?

Otherwise, I didn't see a whole lot of success in how any of the violence was handled, whether in Portland with Antifa-sorts, or in Michigan with the overrun of that capitol by MAGA-types, did you? Or any place else?

Certainly Trump's photo op display of force against a BLM group that prior summer was unwarranted and backfired, so that didn't exactly pave the way.

It's very easy to say, in retrospect, that the Feds and police should have been far more out in force to turn back the MAGA mob and not get overrun, no matter which way they turned, but we're talking 10,000 + MAGA sorts...

Seems to me that cradle is at least partly correct that many failed to recognize the actual seriousness of a MAGA mob, directly incited by the POTUS himself, and prior organized/prepared for action by actual seditionists...a 'failure of imagination"? maybe. It's indeed hard to imagine a President actually inciting a mob and, if not actually intending violence when saying "fight like hell or there won't be a country to fight for', and then failing to publicly denounce the violence ASAP...hard to imagine that scenario, that's for sure.

That said, some of us common folks were warning that the MAGA folks were definitely capable of violence that day. The Big Lie was incredibly motivating. So, not entirely unimaginable...and sure sounds like the acting DOJ AG saw the potential for domestic terrorist violence as well.

But here's the thing, we're still refusing to sufficiently 'imagine' the capacities of these MAGA folks.

Any violence that day was abhorrent. Yet somehow, no one has been charged with insurrection. Very few guns were confiscated, if any. How many people arrested for violence? How many arrested for milling around? How many non-violent people clubbed and beaten. How many protesters dead? How many security forces charged with any crime? It's ok to stand back and watch if it's just some business or just a lowly police station or courthouse. Guns and clubs are reserved for your political opposition. Pass me a banana.

You're still leaving me confused as to what you're saying.

Insurrection/sedition is a difficult to prove charge, but stay tuned.

727 of the mob have been charged so far...that's less than 10% of the mob, but it's a sizable portion of those who actually broke into the building and/or were otherwise identifiable as committing violence. No one to our knowledge has been charged who didn't provably break the law.

But it's not yet the real organizers and inciters of sedition.

I'm not aware of ANY non-violent people "clubbed and beaten" unless you mean the police who got beaten on? The front lines of that mob coming into hard contact with the police were ALL violent and participating in that violence. None of that front line could claim otherwise. But, sure, lots of other people there in the mob (like my brother in law) likely never participated in any of the violence, though their presence and exhortations were part of that mob mentality.

One protestor died, shot climbing through a broken window, mere yards away from Congress reps and staff. Officer found to be doing his duty, fully cleared.

Re guns, it's illegal to carry weapons in DC, only a few people were arrested, mostly in the days prior, for that offense, though there was the guy with the van full of weapons...the bomb makers haven't been discovered yet. The intelligence on the guns was that those who were communicating about preparing for the violence decided to not carry guns, given the automatic charge for getting caught with a gun, and instead counseled one another on the use of handheld, makeshift weapons...which is what they came prepared to do...along with tactical protective gear...prepared for violence.

If it was a Fed Court House in Portland, or a Police Station in Seattle or Minneapolis, it would have been ok to let the Capitol be looted & burned.

Presidential elections are certified by congress and VP of the United States of America in those cities? But I know what you mean

So these federal government buildings are excluded from actually representing the government because they are not responsible for validating the next POTUS?? You sound... hold the phone, I can't repeat your own words to you without it being considered a personal attack.

Insurrection/sedition was the question, not whether the buildings are "representing the government"; clearly the intent of the DC attack was to prevent the peaceful transfer of power; I don't think Portland or Michigan had the same sort of intent, do you?

You may appreciate this MD and understand the relevance. My oldest son changed careers in federal law enforcement. He switched from being a FAM to being a postal inspector working out of the office in Philly. I bet NONE of you folks out there in Fan lax land have ever heard of the threat to the USPS over counterfeit postage stamps. Why print up fake 20s when printing up billions of 1st class postage stamps is so easy to do. Everybody looks at their money, how many of you look at your postage stamps??? Food for thought for all of you folks out there on this forum. Are these people also guilty of insurrection/sedition?? Their goal and intent is to undermine the US government. You don't have to try and reverse an election to be a threat to this country.

I certainly agree with the bolded above.

Interesting, but I'd have assumed the purpose of the fraud was $, not insurrection.

Are there cases where the actual intent is the overthrow of the government?
Sounds pretty unlikely.
Much more likely that the intent is pecuniary.

But sure, there are all sorts of crimes one can commit, damaging to the health and wellbeing of this country and its citizens.

Not the same, though, as the overthrow of the duly elected government.

US Postage is money. Postage stamps as of today are easy to fake. The secret service dedicates enormous resources to protecting our paper money. The postal service also dedicates enormous resources to protecting mail service. Until my son pointed this out to me, i never knew it was a problem. Enough fake postage could bankrupt the USPS. Most US citizens are not even aware it is a problem. The government takes it very seriously. Easy to find a fake 20. It is almost impossible to spot a fake stamp on a letter. when there are billions of them out there in circulation do the math.

Most folks would be surprised at how involved postal inspectors are in a great many things beyond just mail and mail fraud. They were in on the ground floor of the Anthrax threat and, yes, stamps are money in many ways as well as many other crimes that you mail and wire for fraud both domestically and internationally. Not to mention all the Chinese counterfeit fentanyl that is most shipped through the US mail from overseas.
Over 2,500 employees including special agents, inspectors and investigators

[dislaxxic]

My bad, I was being facetious. I'm more than happy to listen to Garland and then eviscerate him in the same manner AG Barr was on this forum. The content of your character means diddly squat if you serve a POTUS that is not popular. As far as Garland is concerned, he is the Mr Rogers of AGs. His calm soothing voice and very low key manner are cover for a man who is a FLP ideologue. It is better this guy serves a few years as the AG than 20 years on the SCOTUS. He should have been given an up or down vote for the SCOTUS. That vote should have been NO... highly unqualified to sit on the SCOTUS. His performance so far as AG is proof of that.

0-947

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