January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

[get it to x]

It's a conspiracy cradle...Pelosi and Pence were in cahoots and wanted the rednecks to break into the building and threaten everyone's lives, heck they wanted to be martyrs...apparently, it was a huge error to shoot a first amendment protestor climbing through a window, spoiled the plan...

The sad part is that some people would believe what you are saying. IMO the answer is much more simple. The government did not see bad people crashing planes into our buildings. 20 years later our government never thought our own people would assault our own capital. In failing to prepare we have prepared to fail. If no other lesson was learned maybe this will be the last time any enraged horde of angry people ever choose to or be allowed to assault our capital building. It sounds like you have a wonderful relaxing cruise. My wife and I hope to do a Mediterranean cruise next year. Spain and Southern Italy are two places we want to see.

They had the whole prior summer to bone up on handling mob violence. They did learn how to keep people in indefinite detention, as opposed to bailing them out to take another run at a cop or two.

[MDlaxfan76]

Commandos with shoot to kill authority were at the capitol on January 6.

Certainly makes those look foolish that hung the CP out to dry.

... think it warrants a re-think of a number of things.

It's going to be very interesting to better understand not only what DOJ saw in advance that led them to take this preparation, and why others didn't, and whether their decision to activate, made unilaterally by Rosen, was known and resisted or hidden from potential WH interference/misuse (?) but also what the rationale was for limited deployment as the action progressed...sounds like they participated in the 'rescue'/protection of VP Pence...did they come to the aid of the Senators and Reps as well? How many? Were others held in reserve?

[MDlaxfan76]

It's a conspiracy cradle...Pelosi and Pence were in cahoots and wanted the rednecks to break into the building and threaten everyone's lives, heck they wanted to be martyrs...apparently, it was a huge error to shoot a first amendment protestor climbing through a window, spoiled the plan...

The sad part is that some people would believe what you are saying. IMO the answer is much more simple. The government did not see bad people crashing planes into our buildings. 20 years later our government never thought our own people would assault our own capital. In failing to prepare we have prepared to fail. If no other lesson was learned maybe this will be the last time any enraged horde of angry people ever choose to or be allowed to assault our capital building. It sounds like you have a wonderful relaxing cruise. My wife and I hope to do a Mediterranean cruise next year. Spain and Southern Italy are two places we want to see.

They had the whole prior summer to bone up on handling mob violence. They did learn how to keep people in indefinite detention, as opposed to bailing them out to take another run at a cop or two.

Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying they grabbed up some MAGA folks as they entered DC with guns (true) and didn't let them out in time to participate on Jan 6?

Otherwise, I didn't see a whole lot of success in how any of the violence was handled, whether in Portland with Antifa-sorts, or in Michigan with the overrun of that capitol by MAGA-types, did you? Or any place else?

Certainly Trump's photo op display of force against a BLM group that prior summer was unwarranted and backfired, so that didn't exactly pave the way.

It's very easy to say, in retrospect, that the Feds and police should have been far more out in force to turn back the MAGA mob and not get overrun, no matter which way they turned, but we're talking 10,000 + MAGA sorts...

Seems to me that cradle is at least partly correct that many failed to recognize the actual seriousness of a MAGA mob, directly incited by the POTUS himself, and prior organized/prepared for action by actual seditionists...a 'failure of imagination"? maybe. It's indeed hard to imagine a President actually inciting a mob and, if not actually intending violence when saying "fight like hell or there won't be a country to fight for', and then failing to publicly denounce the violence ASAP...hard to imagine that scenario, that's for sure.

That said, some of us common folks were warning that the MAGA folks were definitely capable of violence that day. The Big Lie was incredibly motivating. So, not entirely unimaginable...and sure sounds like the acting DOJ AG saw the potential for domestic terrorist violence as well.

But here's the thing, we're still refusing to sufficiently 'imagine' the capacities of these MAGA folks.

[get it to x]

It's a conspiracy cradle...Pelosi and Pence were in cahoots and wanted the rednecks to break into the building and threaten everyone's lives, heck they wanted to be martyrs...apparently, it was a huge error to shoot a first amendment protestor climbing through a window, spoiled the plan...

The sad part is that some people would believe what you are saying. IMO the answer is much more simple. The government did not see bad people crashing planes into our buildings. 20 years later our government never thought our own people would assault our own capital. In failing to prepare we have prepared to fail. If no other lesson was learned maybe this will be the last time any enraged horde of angry people ever choose to or be allowed to assault our capital building. It sounds like you have a wonderful relaxing cruise. My wife and I hope to do a Mediterranean cruise next year. Spain and Southern Italy are two places we want to see.

They had the whole prior summer to bone up on handling mob violence. They did learn how to keep people in indefinite detention, as opposed to bailing them out to take another run at a cop or two.

Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying they grabbed up some MAGA folks as they entered DC with guns (true) and didn't let them out in time to participate on Jan 6?

Otherwise, I didn't see a whole lot of success in how any of the violence was handled, whether in Portland with Antifa-sorts, or in Michigan with the overrun of that capitol by MAGA-types, did you? Or any place else?

Certainly Trump's photo op display of force against a BLM group that prior summer was unwarranted and backfired, so that didn't exactly pave the way.

It's very easy to say, in retrospect, that the Feds and police should have been far more out in force to turn back the MAGA mob and not get overrun, no matter which way they turned, but we're talking 10,000 + MAGA sorts...

Seems to me that cradle is at least partly correct that many failed to recognize the actual seriousness of a MAGA mob, directly incited by the POTUS himself, and prior organized/prepared for action by actual seditionists...a 'failure of imagination"? maybe. It's indeed hard to imagine a President actually inciting a mob and, if not actually intending violence when saying "fight like hell or there won't be a country to fight for', and then failing to publicly denounce the violence ASAP...hard to imagine that scenario, that's for sure.

That said, some of us common folks were warning that the MAGA folks were definitely capable of violence that day. The Big Lie was incredibly motivating. So, not entirely unimaginable...and sure sounds like the acting DOJ AG saw the potential for domestic terrorist violence as well.

But here's the thing, we're still refusing to sufficiently 'imagine' the capacities of these MAGA folks.

Any violence that day was abhorrent. Yet somehow, no one has been charged with insurrection. Very few guns were confiscated, if any. How many people arrested for violence? How many arrested for milling around? How many non-violent people clubbed and beaten. How many protesters dead? How many security forces charged with any crime? It's ok to stand back and watch if it's just some business or just a lowly police station or courthouse. Guns and clubs are reserved for your political opposition. Pass me a banana.

[old salt]

Commandos with shoot to kill authority were at the capitol on January 6.

Certainly makes those look foolish that hung the CP out to dry.

Good stuff :

On Sunday, January 3, the heads of a half-dozen elite government special operations teams met in Quantico, Virginia, to go over potential threats, contingencies, and plans for the upcoming Joint Session of Congress. The meeting, and the subsequent deployment of these shadowy commandos on January 6, has never before been revealed.

Right after the New Year, Jeffrey A. Rosen, the acting Attorney General on January 6, approved implementation of long-standing contingency plans dealing with the most extreme possibilities: an attack on President Donald Trump or Vice President Mike Pence, a terrorist attack involving a weapon of mass destruction, and a declaration of measures to implement continuity of government, requiring protection and movement of presidential successors.

Rosen made a unilateral decision to take the preparatory steps to deploy Justice Department and so-called "national" forces. There was no formal request from the U.S. Capitol Police, the Secret Service, or the Metropolitan Police Department—in fact, no external request from any agency. The leadership in Justice and the FBI anticipated the worst and decided to act independently, the special operations forces lurking behind the scenes.

"I believe that DOJ [Department of Justice] reasonably prepared for contingencies ahead of January 6, understanding that there was considerable uncertainty as to how many people would arrive, who those people would be, and precisely what purposes they would pursue," Rosen later told Congress. He stressed that his department "no frontline role with respect to crowd control," that they were focused on "high-risk" operations.

The contingency units meeting on January 3 included the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team, the FBI's national "Render Safe" team, an FBI SWAT team from the Baltimore Field Office, Special Response Teams from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), and the U.S. Marshals Service Special Operations Group.

All of these assets were "pre-deployed" and ready to go over the weekend of January 2-3, staging out of the FBI Academy complex in Quantico, 30 miles south of the Capitol building. If a WMD or terrorist attack occurred, the units were to move via helicopter to the site of the incident. The activation of the catastrophic response units, operating under plans already approved by President Trump, entailed an automatic green light allowing federal responders to take the initiative and spare no resources, including shoot-to-kill authority, to deal with this most extraordinary condition.

The 350-strong Hostage Rescue Team was established in 1983 to be a national level counterterrorist unit, offering a "tactical" option—a military option—for the most extraordinary law enforcement situations within the United States. Prior to 9/11, HRT was primarily a domestic counter-terrorism unit; after the attack, the team took on additional missions, including working with the Joint Special Operations Command overseas in high-profile raids and the targeting of high-value targets.

The FBI is the lead agency for what insiders call the "no-fail, 24-hour, 7-day-a-week, 365-day-per-year response capability." In 1999, the Bureau was assigned the responsibility for the render safe mission, a euphemism for extraordinary and highly classified actions that are slated to take place in cases of a lost, stolen, or hidden nuclear or radiological weapon. The FBI had already been given primary responsibility for domestic counterterrorism, including quasi-military action against armed groups inside the United States. President Bill Clinton approved new rules that assigned "national response" to the FBI (it had previously resided in the Defense Department). The FBI would form the dedicated rapid response force, and technical response assets from various departments would be seconded to this so-called National Mission Force, operating under a National Asset Commander, an FBI officer appointed by and reporting to the Attorney General and ultimately the White House.

The overlap of counterterrorism and WMD forged this extraordinary force, operating under Top Secret and compartmentalized presidential directives. The National Mission Force, however, also had to plan for other crisis response contingencies, such as hostage rescue and continuity of government. Those latter functions could also fall under the operational control of the Secret Service (an element of the Department of Homeland Security) or to military commanders who were operating in response to immediate emergencies.

Most of the literature mistakenly says that the Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC)—including, famously, the units formerly known as Delta Force and SEAL Team 6—is the primary national mission force. Although overseas, the National Mission Force often operates as a Joint Special Operations Task Force (with FBI augmentation), made up of dedicated teams assigned to JSOC, inside the United States, the FBI is in charge.

On the morning of January 6, most of these forces staged closer to downtown Washington, particularly after intelligence was received indicating a possible threat to FBI headquarters building or the FBI's Washington Field Office. FBI tactical teams arrived on Capitol Hill early in the day to assist in the collection of evidence at sites—including the Republican and Democrat party national headquarters—where explosive devices were found. FBI SWAT teams and snipers were deployed to secure nearby congressional office buildings. Other FBI agents provided selective security around the U.S. Capitol and protection to congressional members and staff.

A tactical team of the Hostage Rescue Team was one of the first external federal agencies to actually enter the Capitol after protestors breached the building. In addition to augmentation of emergency security assets, one team coordinated with the U.S. Capitol Police and Secret Service to provide additional safeguarding of Vice President Pence, who had been moved to the underground parking structure beneath the Capitol, from where he was supposed to evacuate. But Pence refused to leave the building and stayed underground instead.

The presence of these extraordinary forces under the control of the Attorney General—and mostly operating under contingency plans that Congress and the U.S. Capitol Police were not privy to—added an additional layer of highly armed responders. The role that the military played in this highly classified operation is still unknown, though FBI sources tell Newsweek that military operators seconded to the FBI, and those on alert as part of the National Mission Force, were present in the metropolitan area. The lingering question is: What was it that the Justice Department saw that provoked it to see January 6 as an extraordinary event, something that the other agencies evidently missed.

Based on ^^^, apparently the tac teams went to the Capitol in the morning when the pipe bombs were found ; however, they apparently were not in positions where they could protect the police or directly confront the mob. Instead, it reads like they were used to protect the VP, Congress members & staff, then to clear the Capitol building -- they might have been the tac team in the pics who had rioters spread eagled on the floor inside the Capitol building.

Shows how clueless the CPB were -- they didn't even know those tac teams were available, staged, & then deployed, on their own initiative. Couldn't ask them to be staged in advance, that would look too militaristic.

[MDlaxfan76]

It's a conspiracy cradle...Pelosi and Pence were in cahoots and wanted the rednecks to break into the building and threaten everyone's lives, heck they wanted to be martyrs...apparently, it was a huge error to shoot a first amendment protestor climbing through a window, spoiled the plan...

The sad part is that some people would believe what you are saying. IMO the answer is much more simple. The government did not see bad people crashing planes into our buildings. 20 years later our government never thought our own people would assault our own capital. In failing to prepare we have prepared to fail. If no other lesson was learned maybe this will be the last time any enraged horde of angry people ever choose to or be allowed to assault our capital building. It sounds like you have a wonderful relaxing cruise. My wife and I hope to do a Mediterranean cruise next year. Spain and Southern Italy are two places we want to see.

They had the whole prior summer to bone up on handling mob violence. They did learn how to keep people in indefinite detention, as opposed to bailing them out to take another run at a cop or two.

Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying they grabbed up some MAGA folks as they entered DC with guns (true) and didn't let them out in time to participate on Jan 6?

Otherwise, I didn't see a whole lot of success in how any of the violence was handled, whether in Portland with Antifa-sorts, or in Michigan with the overrun of that capitol by MAGA-types, did you? Or any place else?

Certainly Trump's photo op display of force against a BLM group that prior summer was unwarranted and backfired, so that didn't exactly pave the way.

It's very easy to say, in retrospect, that the Feds and police should have been far more out in force to turn back the MAGA mob and not get overrun, no matter which way they turned, but we're talking 10,000 + MAGA sorts...

Seems to me that cradle is at least partly correct that many failed to recognize the actual seriousness of a MAGA mob, directly incited by the POTUS himself, and prior organized/prepared for action by actual seditionists...a 'failure of imagination"? maybe. It's indeed hard to imagine a President actually inciting a mob and, if not actually intending violence when saying "fight like hell or there won't be a country to fight for', and then failing to publicly denounce the violence ASAP...hard to imagine that scenario, that's for sure.

That said, some of us common folks were warning that the MAGA folks were definitely capable of violence that day. The Big Lie was incredibly motivating. So, not entirely unimaginable...and sure sounds like the acting DOJ AG saw the potential for domestic terrorist violence as well.

But here's the thing, we're still refusing to sufficiently 'imagine' the capacities of these MAGA folks.

Any violence that day was abhorrent. Yet somehow, no one has been charged with insurrection. Very few guns were confiscated, if any. How many people arrested for violence? How many arrested for milling around? How many non-violent people clubbed and beaten. How many protesters dead? How many security forces charged with any crime? It's ok to stand back and watch if it's just some business or just a lowly police station or courthouse. Guns and clubs are reserved for your political opposition. Pass me a banana.

You're still leaving me confused as to what you're saying.

Insurrection/sedition is a difficult to prove charge, but stay tuned.

727 of the mob have been charged so far...that's less than 10% of the mob, but it's a sizable portion of those who actually broke into the building and/or were otherwise identifiable as committing violence. No one to our knowledge has been charged who didn't provably break the law.

But it's not yet the real organizers and inciters of sedition.

I'm not aware of ANY non-violent people "clubbed and beaten" unless you mean the police who got beaten on? The front lines of that mob coming into hard contact with the police were ALL violent and participating in that violence. None of that front line could claim otherwise. But, sure, lots of other people there in the mob (like my brother in law) likely never participated in any of the violence, though their presence and exhortations were part of that mob mentality.

One protestor died, shot climbing through a broken window, mere yards away from Congress reps and staff. Officer found to be doing his duty, fully cleared.

Re guns, it's illegal to carry weapons in DC, only a few people were arrested, mostly in the days prior, for that offense, though there was the guy with the van full of weapons...the bomb makers haven't been discovered yet. The intelligence on the guns was that those who were communicating about preparing for the violence decided to not carry guns, given the automatic charge for getting caught with a gun, and instead counseled one another on the use of handheld, makeshift weapons...which is what they came prepared to do...along with tactical protective gear...prepared for violence.

[old salt]

It's a conspiracy cradle...Pelosi and Pence were in cahoots and wanted the rednecks to break into the building and threaten everyone's lives, heck they wanted to be martyrs...apparently, it was a huge error to shoot a first amendment protestor climbing through a window, spoiled the plan...

The sad part is that some people would believe what you are saying. IMO the answer is much more simple. The government did not see bad people crashing planes into our buildings. 20 years later our government never thought our own people would assault our own capital. In failing to prepare we have prepared to fail. If no other lesson was learned maybe this will be the last time any enraged horde of angry people ever choose to or be allowed to assault our capital building. It sounds like you have a wonderful relaxing cruise. My wife and I hope to do a Mediterranean cruise next year. Spain and Southern Italy are two places we want to see.

They had the whole prior summer to bone up on handling mob violence. They did learn how to keep people in indefinite detention, as opposed to bailing them out to take another run at a cop or two.

Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying they grabbed up some MAGA folks as they entered DC with guns (true) and didn't let them out in time to participate on Jan 6?

Otherwise, I didn't see a whole lot of success in how any of the violence was handled, whether in Portland with Antifa-sorts, or in Michigan with the overrun of that capitol by MAGA-types, did you? Or any place else?

Certainly Trump's photo op display of force against a BLM group that prior summer was unwarranted and backfired, so that didn't exactly pave the way.

It's very easy to say, in retrospect, that the Feds and police should have been far more out in force to turn back the MAGA mob and not get overrun, no matter which way they turned, but we're talking 10,000 + MAGA sorts...

Seems to me that cradle is at least partly correct that many failed to recognize the actual seriousness of a MAGA mob, directly incited by the POTUS himself, and prior organized/prepared for action by actual seditionists...a 'failure of imagination"? maybe. It's indeed hard to imagine a President actually inciting a mob and, if not actually intending violence when saying "fight like hell or there won't be a country to fight for', and then failing to publicly denounce the violence ASAP...hard to imagine that scenario, that's for sure.

That said, some of us common folks were warning that the MAGA folks were definitely capable of violence that day. The Big Lie was incredibly motivating. So, not entirely unimaginable...and sure sounds like the acting DOJ AG saw the potential for domestic terrorist violence as well.

But here's the thing, we're still refusing to sufficiently 'imagine' the capacities of these MAGA folks.

Any violence that day was abhorrent. Yet somehow, no one has been charged with insurrection. Very few guns were confiscated, if any. How many people arrested for violence? How many arrested for milling around? How many non-violent people clubbed and beaten. How many protesters dead? How many security forces charged with any crime? It's ok to stand back and watch if it's just some business or just a lowly police station or courthouse. Guns and clubs are reserved for your political opposition. Pass me a banana.

You're still leaving me confused as to what you're saying.

Insurrection/sedition is a difficult to prove charge, but stay tuned.

727 of the mob have been charged so far...that's less than 10% of the mob, but it's a sizable portion of those who actually broke into the building and/or were otherwise identifiable as committing violence. No one to our knowledge has been charged who didn't provably break the law.

But it's not yet the real organizers and inciters of sedition.

I'm not aware of ANY non-violent people "clubbed and beaten" unless you mean the police who got beaten on? The front lines of that mob coming into hard contact with the police were ALL violent and participating in that violence. None of that front line could claim otherwise. But, sure, lots of other people there in the mob (like my brother in law) likely never participated in any of the violence, though their presence and exhortations were part of that mob mentality.

One protestor died, shot climbing through a broken window, mere yards away from Congress reps and staff. Officer found to be doing his duty, fully cleared.

Re guns, it's illegal to carry weapons in DC, only a few people were arrested, mostly in the days prior, for that offense, though there was the guy with the van full of weapons...the bomb makers haven't been discovered yet. The intelligence on the guns was that those who were communicating about preparing for the violence decided to not carry guns, given the automatic charge for getting caught with a gun, and instead counseled one another on the use of handheld, makeshift weapons...which is what they came prepared to do...along with tactical protective gear...prepared for violence.

If it was a Fed Court House in Portland, or a Police Station in Seattle or Minneapolis, it would have been ok to let the Capitol be looted & burned.

[dislaxxic]

Lengthy post about how a case is being methodically made to charge the inciter of the Capitol Riot with several crimes. It is a long and twisting story, kinda like the way this debacle happened in real time, so those not ready to keep up probably should find a Cliff Notes version. Marcy Wheeler is all over this story and reaches some sound conclusions about it.

One thing that is FOR SURE is this: the attempted coup that took place on January 6, 2021 had NOT A THING to do with how well or how poorly the Capitol building was defended. That line is no more than an insipid, puerile distraction from what culminated that day and what has been taking place since in the world of trump's addled, made-up fantasy world.

EASY CASES: WHY AUSTIN SARAT’S ARGUMENT THAT TRUMP SHOULD NOT BE PROSECUTED IS WRONG

The question is not whether DOJ should open an investigation into Donald Trump. The question is whether, if and when DOJ accumulates enough evidence — surely helped by Select Committee efforts but in no way relying entirely on them — to show probable cause that Trump conspired with others to prevent Congress from certifying the vote on January 6, 2021, to charge him like DOJ has already charged hundreds of others.

And that question is significantly a question about equity.

The question is whether, if Paul Hodgkins has to serve eight months in prison for occupying the Senate while waving a Donald Trump flag around (Hodgkins is already three months into that sentence), Donald Trump should be prosecuted as well.

The question is whether, if Jacob Chansley has to serve 41 months in prison (Chansley has been in jail since January 9, 2021) for occupying the Senate dais, in defiance of orders from a cop, with a spear and a blowhorn and leaving a message for Mike Pence reading, “It’s Only A Matter of Time. Justice Is Coming!,” Donald Trump should be prosecuted as well.

The question is whether, if Kevin Fairlamb has to serve 41 months in prison (Fairlamb has been in jail since January 22, 2021) for punching one of the cops protecting the Capitol “with the purpose of influencing, affecting, and retaliating against the conduct of government by stopping or delaying the Congressional proceeding by intimidation or coercion,” Donald Trump should be prosecuted as well.

The question is whether, if Gina Bisignano faces 41 months for traveling to DC boasting, “The insurrection begins,” marching to the Capitol while narrating her actions — “we are marching to the Capitol to put some pressure on Mike Pence” and “I’m going to break into the Capitol” — and then helping to break a window to get into the Capitol, Trump should be prosecuted as well.

The question is whether, if Matthew Greene faces 41 months in prison for — months after Trump instructed the Proud Boys to “stand back and stand by” — joining the Proud Boys in an orchestrated assault on the Capitol in hopes, “that his actions and those of his co-conspirators would cause legislators and the Vice President to act differently during the course of the certification of the Electoral College Vote than they would have otherwise,” Donald Trump should be prosecuted as well. Greene has been in jail since April 21, 2021.

The question is whether, if Jon Schaffer faces 41 months for, after learning “that Vice President Pence planned to go forward with the Electoral College vote certification,” forcibly storming the Capitol armed with bear spray, Trump should be prosecuted as well.

The question is whether, if Josiah Colt faces 51 months because, after he, “learned that the Vice President had not intervened to stop the certification of the Electoral College vote,” he stormed the Capitol, broke into the Senate, and then occupied Pence’s chair, Donald Trump should be prosecuted as well.

The question is whether, if Graydon Young faces 63 months because he barged into the Capitol as part of a stack of kitted out militia members with the purpose of “intimidating and coercing government personnel who were participating in or supporting” the vote certification, Donald Trump should be prosecuted as well.

At this point, there’s no way to avoid the things Sarat would like to avoid by merely talking about Trump’s crimes rather than prosecuting them, to say nothing of the way that would violate DOJ rules prohibiting doing so. That’s true, in large part, because Trump is claiming martyrdom for those who did his dirty work. Between right wing lawyers swooping in to push defendants to renege on their guilty pleas, continued efforts by defendants’ co-conspirators to claim they were all set up by the Deep State, and schemes to profit off continued propaganda in support of Trump, every one of these cases involves some of the things that Sarat fears would occur if Trump, too, were prosecuted. Trump has a press conference scheduled for January 6 that will undoubtedly do some of the things Sarat would like to stave off. That din will only get louder as trials start in February. The claims of martyrdom are already baked into this investigation, and so would be better addressed by a direct debunking rather than a belated attempt at avoidance, not least because white terrorists have a history of undermining prosecutions by claiming martyrdom.

But there’s another reason, besides equity, that demands that DOJ prosecute Trump if prosecutors can collect the evidence to do so.

All five of the opinions (Dabney Friedrich, Amit Mehta, Tim Kelly, James Boasberg, plus Moss) upholding the application of obstruction to the vote certification have some discussion of what separates “corrupt” efforts to obstruct the vote count from political lobbying or civil disobedience. The discussion entails whether corruption requires an attempt to corrupt someone else, or whether it only involves corruptness in one’s own actions. A number of these opinions take an easy route, stating simply that the defendants in question are alleged to have broken the law in other ways in their efforts to obstruct the vote count, which gets past corruptness in one’s own actions, so a further analysis of whether legal actions might amount to obstruction is unnecessary as applied to those defendants. That’s an intransitive understanding of the corrupt purpose necessary to obstruction.

Read the whole thing. The examples above include language taken from formal court proceedings and are "on the record". Try to ignore the desperate nonsense being spread by those that want you to see this for something it most certainly is NOT...a tempest in a teapot caused entirely by a failure of a few FLP DC "leaders" to protect our Capitol and turn away these earnest patriots simply expressing their 1st Amendment opinions.

..

[seacoaster]

Great post (yours Dis, and Marcy's). Get ready for a minutiae-laden discussion of where the National Guard was, all the while overlooking the President watching live television footage of those he incited over the previous two months, to say nothing of that morning, and doing nothing.

“An act is done corruptly if it’s done voluntarily and intentionally to bring about an unlawful result or a lawful result by some unlawful method, with a hope or expectation of . . . [a] benefit to oneself or a benefit to another person.” This is the formulation of the Hero Duck Hunter Scalia. Did the President voluntarily and intentionally act to impede the certification of the votes of the Electoral College? Was his intention an unlawful result? You bet it was.

[cradleandshoot]

Great post (yours Dis, and Marcy's). Get ready for a minutiae-laden discussion of where the National Guard was, all the while overlooking the President watching live television footage of those he incited over the previous two months, to say nothing of that morning, and doing nothing.

“An act is done corruptly if it’s done voluntarily and intentionally to bring about an unlawful result or a lawful result by some unlawful method, with a hope or expectation of . . . [a] benefit to oneself or a benefit to another person.” This is the formulation of the Hero Duck Hunter Scalia. Did the President voluntarily and intentionally act to impede the certification of the votes of the Electoral College? Was his intention an unlawful result? You bet it was.

Great job of trying to obfuscate the discussion by inserting legaleese. I don't give 2 chits what you lawyers think. I don't give 2 chits if the sitting POTUS was a democrat or a republican. I care about WHY there was no plan in place to defend the nations capital. Even for a lawyer, that is not a complicated issue to understand. What your arguing in your case is the US government should never have expected or defended for any type of assault on our nations capital building. Your point may have some merit pre 9/11. Every government building and facility SHOULD expect to be a target. The exception in your assessment excludes the Capital building. I understand that hindsight is 20/20. The fact that 10s of thousands of angry Trump supporters were planning a rally for that day... I get it, we never saw 20 guys flying planes into our buildings either. In failing to prepare we are prepared to fail. I wonder counselor if the people in charge of security at the capital building learned a lesson after 1/6/2021?

[Typical Lax Dad]

It's a conspiracy cradle...Pelosi and Pence were in cahoots and wanted the rednecks to break into the building and threaten everyone's lives, heck they wanted to be martyrs...apparently, it was a huge error to shoot a first amendment protestor climbing through a window, spoiled the plan...

The sad part is that some people would believe what you are saying. IMO the answer is much more simple. The government did not see bad people crashing planes into our buildings. 20 years later our government never thought our own people would assault our own capital. In failing to prepare we have prepared to fail. If no other lesson was learned maybe this will be the last time any enraged horde of angry people ever choose to or be allowed to assault our capital building. It sounds like you have a wonderful relaxing cruise. My wife and I hope to do a Mediterranean cruise next year. Spain and Southern Italy are two places we want to see.

They had the whole prior summer to bone up on handling mob violence. They did learn how to keep people in indefinite detention, as opposed to bailing them out to take another run at a cop or two.

Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying they grabbed up some MAGA folks as they entered DC with guns (true) and didn't let them out in time to participate on Jan 6?

Otherwise, I didn't see a whole lot of success in how any of the violence was handled, whether in Portland with Antifa-sorts, or in Michigan with the overrun of that capitol by MAGA-types, did you? Or any place else?

Certainly Trump's photo op display of force against a BLM group that prior summer was unwarranted and backfired, so that didn't exactly pave the way.

It's very easy to say, in retrospect, that the Feds and police should have been far more out in force to turn back the MAGA mob and not get overrun, no matter which way they turned, but we're talking 10,000 + MAGA sorts...

Seems to me that cradle is at least partly correct that many failed to recognize the actual seriousness of a MAGA mob, directly incited by the POTUS himself, and prior organized/prepared for action by actual seditionists...a 'failure of imagination"? maybe. It's indeed hard to imagine a President actually inciting a mob and, if not actually intending violence when saying "fight like hell or there won't be a country to fight for', and then failing to publicly denounce the violence ASAP...hard to imagine that scenario, that's for sure.

That said, some of us common folks were warning that the MAGA folks were definitely capable of violence that day. The Big Lie was incredibly motivating. So, not entirely unimaginable...and sure sounds like the acting DOJ AG saw the potential for domestic terrorist violence as well.

But here's the thing, we're still refusing to sufficiently 'imagine' the capacities of these MAGA folks.

Any violence that day was abhorrent. Yet somehow, no one has been charged with insurrection. Very few guns were confiscated, if any. How many people arrested for violence? How many arrested for milling around? How many non-violent people clubbed and beaten. How many protesters dead? How many security forces charged with any crime? It's ok to stand back and watch if it's just some business or just a lowly police station or courthouse. Guns and clubs are reserved for your political opposition. Pass me a banana.

You're still leaving me confused as to what you're saying.

Insurrection/sedition is a difficult to prove charge, but stay tuned.

727 of the mob have been charged so far...that's less than 10% of the mob, but it's a sizable portion of those who actually broke into the building and/or were otherwise identifiable as committing violence. No one to our knowledge has been charged who didn't provably break the law.

But it's not yet the real organizers and inciters of sedition.

I'm not aware of ANY non-violent people "clubbed and beaten" unless you mean the police who got beaten on? The front lines of that mob coming into hard contact with the police were ALL violent and participating in that violence. None of that front line could claim otherwise. But, sure, lots of other people there in the mob (like my brother in law) likely never participated in any of the violence, though their presence and exhortations were part of that mob mentality.

One protestor died, shot climbing through a broken window, mere yards away from Congress reps and staff. Officer found to be doing his duty, fully cleared.

Re guns, it's illegal to carry weapons in DC, only a few people were arrested, mostly in the days prior, for that offense, though there was the guy with the van full of weapons...the bomb makers haven't been discovered yet. The intelligence on the guns was that those who were communicating about preparing for the violence decided to not carry guns, given the automatic charge for getting caught with a gun, and instead counseled one another on the use of handheld, makeshift weapons...which is what they came prepared to do...along with tactical protective gear...prepared for violence.

If it was a Fed Court House in Portland, or a Police Station in Seattle or Minneapolis, it would have been ok to let the Capitol be looted & burned.

Presidential elections are certified by congress and VP of the United States of America in those cities? But I know what you mean

[cradleandshoot]

It's a conspiracy cradle...Pelosi and Pence were in cahoots and wanted the rednecks to break into the building and threaten everyone's lives, heck they wanted to be martyrs...apparently, it was a huge error to shoot a first amendment protestor climbing through a window, spoiled the plan...

The sad part is that some people would believe what you are saying. IMO the answer is much more simple. The government did not see bad people crashing planes into our buildings. 20 years later our government never thought our own people would assault our own capital. In failing to prepare we have prepared to fail. If no other lesson was learned maybe this will be the last time any enraged horde of angry people ever choose to or be allowed to assault our capital building. It sounds like you have a wonderful relaxing cruise. My wife and I hope to do a Mediterranean cruise next year. Spain and Southern Italy are two places we want to see.

They had the whole prior summer to bone up on handling mob violence. They did learn how to keep people in indefinite detention, as opposed to bailing them out to take another run at a cop or two.

Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying they grabbed up some MAGA folks as they entered DC with guns (true) and didn't let them out in time to participate on Jan 6?

Otherwise, I didn't see a whole lot of success in how any of the violence was handled, whether in Portland with Antifa-sorts, or in Michigan with the overrun of that capitol by MAGA-types, did you? Or any place else?

Certainly Trump's photo op display of force against a BLM group that prior summer was unwarranted and backfired, so that didn't exactly pave the way.

It's very easy to say, in retrospect, that the Feds and police should have been far more out in force to turn back the MAGA mob and not get overrun, no matter which way they turned, but we're talking 10,000 + MAGA sorts...

Seems to me that cradle is at least partly correct that many failed to recognize the actual seriousness of a MAGA mob, directly incited by the POTUS himself, and prior organized/prepared for action by actual seditionists...a 'failure of imagination"? maybe. It's indeed hard to imagine a President actually inciting a mob and, if not actually intending violence when saying "fight like hell or there won't be a country to fight for', and then failing to publicly denounce the violence ASAP...hard to imagine that scenario, that's for sure.

That said, some of us common folks were warning that the MAGA folks were definitely capable of violence that day. The Big Lie was incredibly motivating. So, not entirely unimaginable...and sure sounds like the acting DOJ AG saw the potential for domestic terrorist violence as well.

But here's the thing, we're still refusing to sufficiently 'imagine' the capacities of these MAGA folks.

Any violence that day was abhorrent. Yet somehow, no one has been charged with insurrection. Very few guns were confiscated, if any. How many people arrested for violence? How many arrested for milling around? How many non-violent people clubbed and beaten. How many protesters dead? How many security forces charged with any crime? It's ok to stand back and watch if it's just some business or just a lowly police station or courthouse. Guns and clubs are reserved for your political opposition. Pass me a banana.

You're still leaving me confused as to what you're saying.

Insurrection/sedition is a difficult to prove charge, but stay tuned.

727 of the mob have been charged so far...that's less than 10% of the mob, but it's a sizable portion of those who actually broke into the building and/or were otherwise identifiable as committing violence. No one to our knowledge has been charged who didn't provably break the law.

But it's not yet the real organizers and inciters of sedition.

I'm not aware of ANY non-violent people "clubbed and beaten" unless you mean the police who got beaten on? The front lines of that mob coming into hard contact with the police were ALL violent and participating in that violence. None of that front line could claim otherwise. But, sure, lots of other people there in the mob (like my brother in law) likely never participated in any of the violence, though their presence and exhortations were part of that mob mentality.

One protestor died, shot climbing through a broken window, mere yards away from Congress reps and staff. Officer found to be doing his duty, fully cleared.

Re guns, it's illegal to carry weapons in DC, only a few people were arrested, mostly in the days prior, for that offense, though there was the guy with the van full of weapons...the bomb makers haven't been discovered yet. The intelligence on the guns was that those who were communicating about preparing for the violence decided to not carry guns, given the automatic charge for getting caught with a gun, and instead counseled one another on the use of handheld, makeshift weapons...which is what they came prepared to do...along with tactical protective gear...prepared for violence.

If it was a Fed Court House in Portland, or a Police Station in Seattle or Minneapolis, it would have been ok to let the Capitol be looted & burned.

Presidential elections are certified by congress and VP of the United States of America in those cities? But I know what you mean

So these federal government buildings are excluded from actually representing the government because they are not responsible for validating the next POTUS?? You sound... hold the phone, I can't repeat your own words to you without it being considered a personal attack.

[dislaxxic]

Great job of trying to obfuscate the discussion by inserting legaleese. I don't give 2 chits what you lawyers think. I don't give 2 chits if the sitting POTUS was a democrat or a republican. I care about WHY there was no plan in place to defend the nations capital. Even for a lawyer, that is not a complicated issue to understand. What your arguing in your case is the US government should never have expected or defended for any type of assault on our nations capital building. Your point may have some merit pre 9/11. Every government building and facility SHOULD expect to be a target. The exception in your assessment excludes the Capital building. I understand that hindsight is 20/20. The fact that 10s of thousands of angry Trump supporters were planning a rally for that day... I get it, we never saw 20 guys flying planes into our buildings either. In failing to prepare we are prepared to fail. I wonder counselor if the people in charge of security at the capital building learned a lesson after 1/6/2021?

You know there was a big BLM protest at the Capitol in 2020, right, months before the coup attempt? Actually, you probably don't know that, since most of your info seems to come from Mr. Rogers Neighborhood.

There was MASSIVE presence and show of force in the Capitol city that day. They DO in fact know how to do protection...but then, some protests are actually lawful and peaceful...

Does it make you wonder AT ALL why there was a difference in the preparations for the two events??

No, i guess it doesn't...cause, well, "it's a beautiful day in the neighborhood..."

[Typical Lax Dad]

It's a conspiracy cradle...Pelosi and Pence were in cahoots and wanted the rednecks to break into the building and threaten everyone's lives, heck they wanted to be martyrs...apparently, it was a huge error to shoot a first amendment protestor climbing through a window, spoiled the plan...

The sad part is that some people would believe what you are saying. IMO the answer is much more simple. The government did not see bad people crashing planes into our buildings. 20 years later our government never thought our own people would assault our own capital. In failing to prepare we have prepared to fail. If no other lesson was learned maybe this will be the last time any enraged horde of angry people ever choose to or be allowed to assault our capital building. It sounds like you have a wonderful relaxing cruise. My wife and I hope to do a Mediterranean cruise next year. Spain and Southern Italy are two places we want to see.

They had the whole prior summer to bone up on handling mob violence. They did learn how to keep people in indefinite detention, as opposed to bailing them out to take another run at a cop or two.

Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying they grabbed up some MAGA folks as they entered DC with guns (true) and didn't let them out in time to participate on Jan 6?

Otherwise, I didn't see a whole lot of success in how any of the violence was handled, whether in Portland with Antifa-sorts, or in Michigan with the overrun of that capitol by MAGA-types, did you? Or any place else?

Certainly Trump's photo op display of force against a BLM group that prior summer was unwarranted and backfired, so that didn't exactly pave the way.

It's very easy to say, in retrospect, that the Feds and police should have been far more out in force to turn back the MAGA mob and not get overrun, no matter which way they turned, but we're talking 10,000 + MAGA sorts...

Seems to me that cradle is at least partly correct that many failed to recognize the actual seriousness of a MAGA mob, directly incited by the POTUS himself, and prior organized/prepared for action by actual seditionists...a 'failure of imagination"? maybe. It's indeed hard to imagine a President actually inciting a mob and, if not actually intending violence when saying "fight like hell or there won't be a country to fight for', and then failing to publicly denounce the violence ASAP...hard to imagine that scenario, that's for sure.

That said, some of us common folks were warning that the MAGA folks were definitely capable of violence that day. The Big Lie was incredibly motivating. So, not entirely unimaginable...and sure sounds like the acting DOJ AG saw the potential for domestic terrorist violence as well.

But here's the thing, we're still refusing to sufficiently 'imagine' the capacities of these MAGA folks.

Any violence that day was abhorrent. Yet somehow, no one has been charged with insurrection. Very few guns were confiscated, if any. How many people arrested for violence? How many arrested for milling around? How many non-violent people clubbed and beaten. How many protesters dead? How many security forces charged with any crime? It's ok to stand back and watch if it's just some business or just a lowly police station or courthouse. Guns and clubs are reserved for your political opposition. Pass me a banana.

You're still leaving me confused as to what you're saying.

Insurrection/sedition is a difficult to prove charge, but stay tuned.

727 of the mob have been charged so far...that's less than 10% of the mob, but it's a sizable portion of those who actually broke into the building and/or were otherwise identifiable as committing violence. No one to our knowledge has been charged who didn't provably break the law.

But it's not yet the real organizers and inciters of sedition.

I'm not aware of ANY non-violent people "clubbed and beaten" unless you mean the police who got beaten on? The front lines of that mob coming into hard contact with the police were ALL violent and participating in that violence. None of that front line could claim otherwise. But, sure, lots of other people there in the mob (like my brother in law) likely never participated in any of the violence, though their presence and exhortations were part of that mob mentality.

One protestor died, shot climbing through a broken window, mere yards away from Congress reps and staff. Officer found to be doing his duty, fully cleared.

Re guns, it's illegal to carry weapons in DC, only a few people were arrested, mostly in the days prior, for that offense, though there was the guy with the van full of weapons...the bomb makers haven't been discovered yet. The intelligence on the guns was that those who were communicating about preparing for the violence decided to not carry guns, given the automatic charge for getting caught with a gun, and instead counseled one another on the use of handheld, makeshift weapons...which is what they came prepared to do...along with tactical protective gear...prepared for violence.

If it was a Fed Court House in Portland, or a Police Station in Seattle or Minneapolis, it would have been ok to let the Capitol be looted & burned.

Presidential elections are certified by congress and VP of the United States of America in those cities? But I know what you mean

So these federal government buildings are excluded from actually representing the government because they are not responsible for validating the next POTUS?? You sound... hold the phone, I can't repeat your own words to you without it being considered a personal attack.

[cradleandshoot]

Great job of trying to obfuscate the discussion by inserting legaleese. I don't give 2 chits what you lawyers think. I don't give 2 chits if the sitting POTUS was a democrat or a republican. I care about WHY there was no plan in place to defend the nations capital. Even for a lawyer, that is not a complicated issue to understand. What your arguing in your case is the US government should never have expected or defended for any type of assault on our nations capital building. Your point may have some merit pre 9/11. Every government building and facility SHOULD expect to be a target. The exception in your assessment excludes the Capital building. I understand that hindsight is 20/20. The fact that 10s of thousands of angry Trump supporters were planning a rally for that day... I get it, we never saw 20 guys flying planes into our buildings either. In failing to prepare we are prepared to fail. I wonder counselor if the people in charge of security at the capital building learned a lesson after 1/6/2021?

You know there was a big BLM protest at the Capitol in 2020, right, months before the coup attempt? Actually, you probably don't know that, since most of your info seems to come from Mr. Rogers Neighborhood.

There was MASSIVE presence and show of force in the Capitol city that day. They DO in fact know how to do protection...but then, some protests are actually lawful and peaceful...

Does it make you wonder AT ALL why there was a difference in the preparations for the two events??

No, i guess it doesn't...cause, well, "it's a beautiful day in the neighborhood..."

FYI.. Fred Rogers is dead. I give you credit for accidentally stumbling into a relevant point. You prove that old cliche about even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.. to quote Don Tickles... " you win a cookie"

https://www.bing.com/search?q=congratul ... 01&PC=U531

[cradleandshoot]

It's a conspiracy cradle...Pelosi and Pence were in cahoots and wanted the rednecks to break into the building and threaten everyone's lives, heck they wanted to be martyrs...apparently, it was a huge error to shoot a first amendment protestor climbing through a window, spoiled the plan...

The sad part is that some people would believe what you are saying. IMO the answer is much more simple. The government did not see bad people crashing planes into our buildings. 20 years later our government never thought our own people would assault our own capital. In failing to prepare we have prepared to fail. If no other lesson was learned maybe this will be the last time any enraged horde of angry people ever choose to or be allowed to assault our capital building. It sounds like you have a wonderful relaxing cruise. My wife and I hope to do a Mediterranean cruise next year. Spain and Southern Italy are two places we want to see.

They had the whole prior summer to bone up on handling mob violence. They did learn how to keep people in indefinite detention, as opposed to bailing them out to take another run at a cop or two.

Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying they grabbed up some MAGA folks as they entered DC with guns (true) and didn't let them out in time to participate on Jan 6?

Otherwise, I didn't see a whole lot of success in how any of the violence was handled, whether in Portland with Antifa-sorts, or in Michigan with the overrun of that capitol by MAGA-types, did you? Or any place else?

Certainly Trump's photo op display of force against a BLM group that prior summer was unwarranted and backfired, so that didn't exactly pave the way.

It's very easy to say, in retrospect, that the Feds and police should have been far more out in force to turn back the MAGA mob and not get overrun, no matter which way they turned, but we're talking 10,000 + MAGA sorts...

Seems to me that cradle is at least partly correct that many failed to recognize the actual seriousness of a MAGA mob, directly incited by the POTUS himself, and prior organized/prepared for action by actual seditionists...a 'failure of imagination"? maybe. It's indeed hard to imagine a President actually inciting a mob and, if not actually intending violence when saying "fight like hell or there won't be a country to fight for', and then failing to publicly denounce the violence ASAP...hard to imagine that scenario, that's for sure.

That said, some of us common folks were warning that the MAGA folks were definitely capable of violence that day. The Big Lie was incredibly motivating. So, not entirely unimaginable...and sure sounds like the acting DOJ AG saw the potential for domestic terrorist violence as well.

But here's the thing, we're still refusing to sufficiently 'imagine' the capacities of these MAGA folks.

Any violence that day was abhorrent. Yet somehow, no one has been charged with insurrection. Very few guns were confiscated, if any. How many people arrested for violence? How many arrested for milling around? How many non-violent people clubbed and beaten. How many protesters dead? How many security forces charged with any crime? It's ok to stand back and watch if it's just some business or just a lowly police station or courthouse. Guns and clubs are reserved for your political opposition. Pass me a banana.

You're still leaving me confused as to what you're saying.

Insurrection/sedition is a difficult to prove charge, but stay tuned.

727 of the mob have been charged so far...that's less than 10% of the mob, but it's a sizable portion of those who actually broke into the building and/or were otherwise identifiable as committing violence. No one to our knowledge has been charged who didn't provably break the law.

But it's not yet the real organizers and inciters of sedition.

I'm not aware of ANY non-violent people "clubbed and beaten" unless you mean the police who got beaten on? The front lines of that mob coming into hard contact with the police were ALL violent and participating in that violence. None of that front line could claim otherwise. But, sure, lots of other people there in the mob (like my brother in law) likely never participated in any of the violence, though their presence and exhortations were part of that mob mentality.

One protestor died, shot climbing through a broken window, mere yards away from Congress reps and staff. Officer found to be doing his duty, fully cleared.

Re guns, it's illegal to carry weapons in DC, only a few people were arrested, mostly in the days prior, for that offense, though there was the guy with the van full of weapons...the bomb makers haven't been discovered yet. The intelligence on the guns was that those who were communicating about preparing for the violence decided to not carry guns, given the automatic charge for getting caught with a gun, and instead counseled one another on the use of handheld, makeshift weapons...which is what they came prepared to do...along with tactical protective gear...prepared for violence.

If it was a Fed Court House in Portland, or a Police Station in Seattle or Minneapolis, it would have been ok to let the Capitol be looted & burned.

Presidential elections are certified by congress and VP of the United States of America in those cities? But I know what you mean

So these federal government buildings are excluded from actually representing the government because they are not responsible for validating the next POTUS?? You sound... hold the phone, I can't repeat your own words to you without it being considered a personal attack.

You sound... damn it, I can't use that phrase on this forum anymore...

[Typical Lax Dad]

It's a conspiracy cradle...Pelosi and Pence were in cahoots and wanted the rednecks to break into the building and threaten everyone's lives, heck they wanted to be martyrs...apparently, it was a huge error to shoot a first amendment protestor climbing through a window, spoiled the plan...

The sad part is that some people would believe what you are saying. IMO the answer is much more simple. The government did not see bad people crashing planes into our buildings. 20 years later our government never thought our own people would assault our own capital. In failing to prepare we have prepared to fail. If no other lesson was learned maybe this will be the last time any enraged horde of angry people ever choose to or be allowed to assault our capital building. It sounds like you have a wonderful relaxing cruise. My wife and I hope to do a Mediterranean cruise next year. Spain and Southern Italy are two places we want to see.

They had the whole prior summer to bone up on handling mob violence. They did learn how to keep people in indefinite detention, as opposed to bailing them out to take another run at a cop or two.

Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying they grabbed up some MAGA folks as they entered DC with guns (true) and didn't let them out in time to participate on Jan 6?

Otherwise, I didn't see a whole lot of success in how any of the violence was handled, whether in Portland with Antifa-sorts, or in Michigan with the overrun of that capitol by MAGA-types, did you? Or any place else?

Certainly Trump's photo op display of force against a BLM group that prior summer was unwarranted and backfired, so that didn't exactly pave the way.

It's very easy to say, in retrospect, that the Feds and police should have been far more out in force to turn back the MAGA mob and not get overrun, no matter which way they turned, but we're talking 10,000 + MAGA sorts...

Seems to me that cradle is at least partly correct that many failed to recognize the actual seriousness of a MAGA mob, directly incited by the POTUS himself, and prior organized/prepared for action by actual seditionists...a 'failure of imagination"? maybe. It's indeed hard to imagine a President actually inciting a mob and, if not actually intending violence when saying "fight like hell or there won't be a country to fight for', and then failing to publicly denounce the violence ASAP...hard to imagine that scenario, that's for sure.

That said, some of us common folks were warning that the MAGA folks were definitely capable of violence that day. The Big Lie was incredibly motivating. So, not entirely unimaginable...and sure sounds like the acting DOJ AG saw the potential for domestic terrorist violence as well.

But here's the thing, we're still refusing to sufficiently 'imagine' the capacities of these MAGA folks.

Any violence that day was abhorrent. Yet somehow, no one has been charged with insurrection. Very few guns were confiscated, if any. How many people arrested for violence? How many arrested for milling around? How many non-violent people clubbed and beaten. How many protesters dead? How many security forces charged with any crime? It's ok to stand back and watch if it's just some business or just a lowly police station or courthouse. Guns and clubs are reserved for your political opposition. Pass me a banana.

You're still leaving me confused as to what you're saying.

Insurrection/sedition is a difficult to prove charge, but stay tuned.

727 of the mob have been charged so far...that's less than 10% of the mob, but it's a sizable portion of those who actually broke into the building and/or were otherwise identifiable as committing violence. No one to our knowledge has been charged who didn't provably break the law.

But it's not yet the real organizers and inciters of sedition.

I'm not aware of ANY non-violent people "clubbed and beaten" unless you mean the police who got beaten on? The front lines of that mob coming into hard contact with the police were ALL violent and participating in that violence. None of that front line could claim otherwise. But, sure, lots of other people there in the mob (like my brother in law) likely never participated in any of the violence, though their presence and exhortations were part of that mob mentality.

One protestor died, shot climbing through a broken window, mere yards away from Congress reps and staff. Officer found to be doing his duty, fully cleared.

Re guns, it's illegal to carry weapons in DC, only a few people were arrested, mostly in the days prior, for that offense, though there was the guy with the van full of weapons...the bomb makers haven't been discovered yet. The intelligence on the guns was that those who were communicating about preparing for the violence decided to not carry guns, given the automatic charge for getting caught with a gun, and instead counseled one another on the use of handheld, makeshift weapons...which is what they came prepared to do...along with tactical protective gear...prepared for violence.

If it was a Fed Court House in Portland, or a Police Station in Seattle or Minneapolis, it would have been ok to let the Capitol be looted & burned.

Presidential elections are certified by congress and VP of the United States of America in those cities? But I know what you mean

So these federal government buildings are excluded from actually representing the government because they are not responsible for validating the next POTUS?? You sound... hold the phone, I can't repeat your own words to you without it being considered a personal attack.

You sound... damn it, I can't use that phrase on this forum anymore...

[cradleandshoot]

It's a conspiracy cradle...Pelosi and Pence were in cahoots and wanted the rednecks to break into the building and threaten everyone's lives, heck they wanted to be martyrs...apparently, it was a huge error to shoot a first amendment protestor climbing through a window, spoiled the plan...

The sad part is that some people would believe what you are saying. IMO the answer is much more simple. The government did not see bad people crashing planes into our buildings. 20 years later our government never thought our own people would assault our own capital. In failing to prepare we have prepared to fail. If no other lesson was learned maybe this will be the last time any enraged horde of angry people ever choose to or be allowed to assault our capital building. It sounds like you have a wonderful relaxing cruise. My wife and I hope to do a Mediterranean cruise next year. Spain and Southern Italy are two places we want to see.

They had the whole prior summer to bone up on handling mob violence. They did learn how to keep people in indefinite detention, as opposed to bailing them out to take another run at a cop or two.

Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying they grabbed up some MAGA folks as they entered DC with guns (true) and didn't let them out in time to participate on Jan 6?

Otherwise, I didn't see a whole lot of success in how any of the violence was handled, whether in Portland with Antifa-sorts, or in Michigan with the overrun of that capitol by MAGA-types, did you? Or any place else?

Certainly Trump's photo op display of force against a BLM group that prior summer was unwarranted and backfired, so that didn't exactly pave the way.

It's very easy to say, in retrospect, that the Feds and police should have been far more out in force to turn back the MAGA mob and not get overrun, no matter which way they turned, but we're talking 10,000 + MAGA sorts...

Seems to me that cradle is at least partly correct that many failed to recognize the actual seriousness of a MAGA mob, directly incited by the POTUS himself, and prior organized/prepared for action by actual seditionists...a 'failure of imagination"? maybe. It's indeed hard to imagine a President actually inciting a mob and, if not actually intending violence when saying "fight like hell or there won't be a country to fight for', and then failing to publicly denounce the violence ASAP...hard to imagine that scenario, that's for sure.

That said, some of us common folks were warning that the MAGA folks were definitely capable of violence that day. The Big Lie was incredibly motivating. So, not entirely unimaginable...and sure sounds like the acting DOJ AG saw the potential for domestic terrorist violence as well.

But here's the thing, we're still refusing to sufficiently 'imagine' the capacities of these MAGA folks.

Any violence that day was abhorrent. Yet somehow, no one has been charged with insurrection. Very few guns were confiscated, if any. How many people arrested for violence? How many arrested for milling around? How many non-violent people clubbed and beaten. How many protesters dead? How many security forces charged with any crime? It's ok to stand back and watch if it's just some business or just a lowly police station or courthouse. Guns and clubs are reserved for your political opposition. Pass me a banana.

You're still leaving me confused as to what you're saying.

Insurrection/sedition is a difficult to prove charge, but stay tuned.

727 of the mob have been charged so far...that's less than 10% of the mob, but it's a sizable portion of those who actually broke into the building and/or were otherwise identifiable as committing violence. No one to our knowledge has been charged who didn't provably break the law.

But it's not yet the real organizers and inciters of sedition.

I'm not aware of ANY non-violent people "clubbed and beaten" unless you mean the police who got beaten on? The front lines of that mob coming into hard contact with the police were ALL violent and participating in that violence. None of that front line could claim otherwise. But, sure, lots of other people there in the mob (like my brother in law) likely never participated in any of the violence, though their presence and exhortations were part of that mob mentality.

One protestor died, shot climbing through a broken window, mere yards away from Congress reps and staff. Officer found to be doing his duty, fully cleared.

Re guns, it's illegal to carry weapons in DC, only a few people were arrested, mostly in the days prior, for that offense, though there was the guy with the van full of weapons...the bomb makers haven't been discovered yet. The intelligence on the guns was that those who were communicating about preparing for the violence decided to not carry guns, given the automatic charge for getting caught with a gun, and instead counseled one another on the use of handheld, makeshift weapons...which is what they came prepared to do...along with tactical protective gear...prepared for violence.

If it was a Fed Court House in Portland, or a Police Station in Seattle or Minneapolis, it would have been ok to let the Capitol be looted & burned.

Presidential elections are certified by congress and VP of the United States of America in those cities? But I know what you mean

So these federal government buildings are excluded from actually representing the government because they are not responsible for validating the next POTUS?? You sound... hold the phone, I can't repeat your own words to you without it being considered a personal attack.

You sound... damn it, I can't use that phrase on this forum anymore...

[MDlaxfan76]

It's a conspiracy cradle...Pelosi and Pence were in cahoots and wanted the rednecks to break into the building and threaten everyone's lives, heck they wanted to be martyrs...apparently, it was a huge error to shoot a first amendment protestor climbing through a window, spoiled the plan...

The sad part is that some people would believe what you are saying. IMO the answer is much more simple. The government did not see bad people crashing planes into our buildings. 20 years later our government never thought our own people would assault our own capital. In failing to prepare we have prepared to fail. If no other lesson was learned maybe this will be the last time any enraged horde of angry people ever choose to or be allowed to assault our capital building. It sounds like you have a wonderful relaxing cruise. My wife and I hope to do a Mediterranean cruise next year. Spain and Southern Italy are two places we want to see.

They had the whole prior summer to bone up on handling mob violence. They did learn how to keep people in indefinite detention, as opposed to bailing them out to take another run at a cop or two.

Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying they grabbed up some MAGA folks as they entered DC with guns (true) and didn't let them out in time to participate on Jan 6?

Otherwise, I didn't see a whole lot of success in how any of the violence was handled, whether in Portland with Antifa-sorts, or in Michigan with the overrun of that capitol by MAGA-types, did you? Or any place else?

Certainly Trump's photo op display of force against a BLM group that prior summer was unwarranted and backfired, so that didn't exactly pave the way.

It's very easy to say, in retrospect, that the Feds and police should have been far more out in force to turn back the MAGA mob and not get overrun, no matter which way they turned, but we're talking 10,000 + MAGA sorts...

Seems to me that cradle is at least partly correct that many failed to recognize the actual seriousness of a MAGA mob, directly incited by the POTUS himself, and prior organized/prepared for action by actual seditionists...a 'failure of imagination"? maybe. It's indeed hard to imagine a President actually inciting a mob and, if not actually intending violence when saying "fight like hell or there won't be a country to fight for', and then failing to publicly denounce the violence ASAP...hard to imagine that scenario, that's for sure.

That said, some of us common folks were warning that the MAGA folks were definitely capable of violence that day. The Big Lie was incredibly motivating. So, not entirely unimaginable...and sure sounds like the acting DOJ AG saw the potential for domestic terrorist violence as well.

But here's the thing, we're still refusing to sufficiently 'imagine' the capacities of these MAGA folks.

Any violence that day was abhorrent. Yet somehow, no one has been charged with insurrection. Very few guns were confiscated, if any. How many people arrested for violence? How many arrested for milling around? How many non-violent people clubbed and beaten. How many protesters dead? How many security forces charged with any crime? It's ok to stand back and watch if it's just some business or just a lowly police station or courthouse. Guns and clubs are reserved for your political opposition. Pass me a banana.

You're still leaving me confused as to what you're saying.

Insurrection/sedition is a difficult to prove charge, but stay tuned.

727 of the mob have been charged so far...that's less than 10% of the mob, but it's a sizable portion of those who actually broke into the building and/or were otherwise identifiable as committing violence. No one to our knowledge has been charged who didn't provably break the law.

But it's not yet the real organizers and inciters of sedition.

I'm not aware of ANY non-violent people "clubbed and beaten" unless you mean the police who got beaten on? The front lines of that mob coming into hard contact with the police were ALL violent and participating in that violence. None of that front line could claim otherwise. But, sure, lots of other people there in the mob (like my brother in law) likely never participated in any of the violence, though their presence and exhortations were part of that mob mentality.

One protestor died, shot climbing through a broken window, mere yards away from Congress reps and staff. Officer found to be doing his duty, fully cleared.

Re guns, it's illegal to carry weapons in DC, only a few people were arrested, mostly in the days prior, for that offense, though there was the guy with the van full of weapons...the bomb makers haven't been discovered yet. The intelligence on the guns was that those who were communicating about preparing for the violence decided to not carry guns, given the automatic charge for getting caught with a gun, and instead counseled one another on the use of handheld, makeshift weapons...which is what they came prepared to do...along with tactical protective gear...prepared for violence.

If it was a Fed Court House in Portland, or a Police Station in Seattle or Minneapolis, it would have been ok to let the Capitol be looted & burned.

huh?
are you responding to my post?
if so, what do you mean?

[MDlaxfan76]

It's a conspiracy cradle...Pelosi and Pence were in cahoots and wanted the rednecks to break into the building and threaten everyone's lives, heck they wanted to be martyrs...apparently, it was a huge error to shoot a first amendment protestor climbing through a window, spoiled the plan...

The sad part is that some people would believe what you are saying. IMO the answer is much more simple. The government did not see bad people crashing planes into our buildings. 20 years later our government never thought our own people would assault our own capital. In failing to prepare we have prepared to fail. If no other lesson was learned maybe this will be the last time any enraged horde of angry people ever choose to or be allowed to assault our capital building. It sounds like you have a wonderful relaxing cruise. My wife and I hope to do a Mediterranean cruise next year. Spain and Southern Italy are two places we want to see.

They had the whole prior summer to bone up on handling mob violence. They did learn how to keep people in indefinite detention, as opposed to bailing them out to take another run at a cop or two.

Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying they grabbed up some MAGA folks as they entered DC with guns (true) and didn't let them out in time to participate on Jan 6?

Otherwise, I didn't see a whole lot of success in how any of the violence was handled, whether in Portland with Antifa-sorts, or in Michigan with the overrun of that capitol by MAGA-types, did you? Or any place else?

Certainly Trump's photo op display of force against a BLM group that prior summer was unwarranted and backfired, so that didn't exactly pave the way.

It's very easy to say, in retrospect, that the Feds and police should have been far more out in force to turn back the MAGA mob and not get overrun, no matter which way they turned, but we're talking 10,000 + MAGA sorts...

Seems to me that cradle is at least partly correct that many failed to recognize the actual seriousness of a MAGA mob, directly incited by the POTUS himself, and prior organized/prepared for action by actual seditionists...a 'failure of imagination"? maybe. It's indeed hard to imagine a President actually inciting a mob and, if not actually intending violence when saying "fight like hell or there won't be a country to fight for', and then failing to publicly denounce the violence ASAP...hard to imagine that scenario, that's for sure.

That said, some of us common folks were warning that the MAGA folks were definitely capable of violence that day. The Big Lie was incredibly motivating. So, not entirely unimaginable...and sure sounds like the acting DOJ AG saw the potential for domestic terrorist violence as well.

But here's the thing, we're still refusing to sufficiently 'imagine' the capacities of these MAGA folks.

Any violence that day was abhorrent. Yet somehow, no one has been charged with insurrection. Very few guns were confiscated, if any. How many people arrested for violence? How many arrested for milling around? How many non-violent people clubbed and beaten. How many protesters dead? How many security forces charged with any crime? It's ok to stand back and watch if it's just some business or just a lowly police station or courthouse. Guns and clubs are reserved for your political opposition. Pass me a banana.

You're still leaving me confused as to what you're saying.

Insurrection/sedition is a difficult to prove charge, but stay tuned.

727 of the mob have been charged so far...that's less than 10% of the mob, but it's a sizable portion of those who actually broke into the building and/or were otherwise identifiable as committing violence. No one to our knowledge has been charged who didn't provably break the law.

But it's not yet the real organizers and inciters of sedition.

I'm not aware of ANY non-violent people "clubbed and beaten" unless you mean the police who got beaten on? The front lines of that mob coming into hard contact with the police were ALL violent and participating in that violence. None of that front line could claim otherwise. But, sure, lots of other people there in the mob (like my brother in law) likely never participated in any of the violence, though their presence and exhortations were part of that mob mentality.

One protestor died, shot climbing through a broken window, mere yards away from Congress reps and staff. Officer found to be doing his duty, fully cleared.

Re guns, it's illegal to carry weapons in DC, only a few people were arrested, mostly in the days prior, for that offense, though there was the guy with the van full of weapons...the bomb makers haven't been discovered yet. The intelligence on the guns was that those who were communicating about preparing for the violence decided to not carry guns, given the automatic charge for getting caught with a gun, and instead counseled one another on the use of handheld, makeshift weapons...which is what they came prepared to do...along with tactical protective gear...prepared for violence.

If it was a Fed Court House in Portland, or a Police Station in Seattle or Minneapolis, it would have been ok to let the Capitol be looted & burned.

Presidential elections are certified by congress and VP of the United States of America in those cities? But I know what you mean

So these federal government buildings are excluded from actually representing the government because they are not responsible for validating the next POTUS?? You sound... hold the phone, I can't repeat your own words to you without it being considered a personal attack.

Insurrection/sedition was the question, not whether the buildings are "representing the government"; clearly the intent of the DC attack was to prevent the peaceful transfer of power; I don't think Portland or Michigan had the same sort of intent, do you?