January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

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old salt
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by old salt »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:26 pm
old salt wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 12:13 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:46 am Nope, this was not a long exchange that Salty cut down. It was a short one and the effect was to specifically ignore the context and the rest of my short response to him.

It's a jerk move in such instances.

I totally agree that sometimes the long, multi-party exchanges don't need to copied again and again and again. Getting specific about what is being responded to is indeed helpful.

But that's not what Salty was doing.
:lol: ...you asked me a specific question, which I quoted, then answered.

There was no need to repeat your diversionary speculation which you call context.
You had no context from the email exchanges. You were speculating.
No need for me to re-post your irrelevant speculation. I was not addressing that.
It was still available to the reader, just two posts up the page. Your words are immortalized.
Nonsense, it was a jerk move.
Cowardly too...no response to the rest.
:lol: ..it was incomprehensible blather. Not worthy of a response.
Either you had more information about the email exchange or you didn't.
I'm not interested in addressing your baseless conjecture.
seacoaster
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by seacoaster »

Roger Stone to appear before the January 6 Committee, and will take the Fifth on "every question asked."

I know you're all as shocked as I am.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:54 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:26 pm
old salt wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 12:13 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:46 am Nope, this was not a long exchange that Salty cut down. It was a short one and the effect was to specifically ignore the context and the rest of my short response to him.

It's a jerk move in such instances.

I totally agree that sometimes the long, multi-party exchanges don't need to copied again and again and again. Getting specific about what is being responded to is indeed helpful.

But that's not what Salty was doing.
:lol: ...you asked me a specific question, which I quoted, then answered.

There was no need to repeat your diversionary speculation which you call context.
You had no context from the email exchanges. You were speculating.
No need for me to re-post your irrelevant speculation. I was not addressing that.
It was still available to the reader, just two posts up the page. Your words are immortalized.
Nonsense, it was a jerk move.
Cowardly too...no response to the rest.
:lol: ..it was incomprehensible blather. Not worthy of a response.
Either you had more information about the email exchange or you didn't.
I'm not interested in addressing your baseless conjecture.
yup, cowardly.
My conjecture was definitely not more baseless than your own...and heck, I tried to find a little common ground.
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old salt
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by old salt »

Where's the reference to the Proud Boys ?
Protect who, from who ? I speculated nothing.
I pointed out one plausible alternative to your speculation.
In the USA report, all the committee weasels said was :
The report doesn't identify the recipient of the message or detail why protection would be needed.
Meadows sent the message the day before Trump spoke at a rally near the Capitol...

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:57 pm
old salt wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:19 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:39 pm And yes, there's emerging evidence that groups like the Proud Boys etc were told that the National Guard would be on their side when it went down. They came prepared for violence.
Link ? Source ? ...plz share this emerging evidence that the National Guard would side with the protesters.
Email from Meadows saying so.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 497829001/
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:31 pm Where's the reference to the Proud Boys ?
Protect who, from who ? I speculated nothing.
I pointed out one plausible alternative to your speculation.
In the USA report, all the committee weasels said was :
The report doesn't identify the recipient of the message or detail why protection would be needed.
Meadows sent the message the day before Trump spoke at a rally near the Capitol...

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:57 pm
old salt wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:19 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:39 pm And yes, there's emerging evidence that groups like the Proud Boys etc were told that the National Guard would be on their side when it went down. They came prepared for violence.
Link ? Source ? ...plz share this emerging evidence that the National Guard would side with the protesters.
Email from Meadows saying so.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 497829001/
You're right, this is just "emerging" and is certainly incomplete.
Testify Mark. Watcha hidin' '?

But yes, protect the "pro-Trump people"...Bannon and Stone were talking with the Proud Boys, that too is "emerging".
Testify Steve and Roger. Watcha hidin' '?

Again, you keep ignoring that I also said that I very much doubt that the NG were actually 'in on' any such plan to side with the Pro-Trump" protestors.

But I do think that the 'plan' was to have the Proud boys types clash with counter protestors, declare a state of emergency and martial law, call in the NG to enforce, and declare the election for Trump. Heck, there's a powerpoint circulated to that effect. Meadows, Reps and Senators, who else was 'working the plan'?

But that doesn't mean the NG was actually on board with any of that. But would they have followed orders?
I don't buy that Miller is 100% straight, but I doubt he was actually complicit, at least not consciously so...hope that's right.
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old salt
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by old salt »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:30 am
old salt wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:31 pm Where's the reference to the Proud Boys ?
Protect who, from who ? I speculated nothing.
I pointed out one plausible alternative to your speculation.
In the USA report, all the committee weasels said was :
The report doesn't identify the recipient of the message or detail why protection would be needed.
Meadows sent the message the day before Trump spoke at a rally near the Capitol...

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:57 pm
old salt wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:19 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:39 pm And yes, there's emerging evidence that groups like the Proud Boys etc were told that the National Guard would be on their side when it went down. They came prepared for violence.
Link ? Source ? ...plz share this emerging evidence that the National Guard would side with the protesters.
Email from Meadows saying so.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 497829001/
You're right, this is just "emerging" and is certainly incomplete.
Testify Mark. Watcha hidin' '?

But yes, protect the "pro-Trump people"...Bannon and Stone were talking with the Proud Boys, that too is "emerging".
Testify Steve and Roger. Watcha hidin' '?

Again, you keep ignoring that I also said that I very much doubt that the NG were actually 'in on' any such plan to side with the Pro-Trump" protestors.

But I do think that the 'plan' was to have the Proud boys types clash with counter protestors, declare a state of emergency and martial law, call in the NG to enforce, and declare the election for Trump. Heck, there's a powerpoint circulated to that effect. Meadows, Reps and Senators, who else was 'working the plan'?

But that doesn't mean the NG was actually on board with any of that. But would they have followed orders?
I don't buy that Miller is 100% straight, but I doubt he was actually complicit, at least not consciously so...hope that's right.
Except the DoD (aka the Pentagon) was dead set against using the NG for crowd control, from SecDef Miller & Gen Milley on down.
Read the Army report. They questioned using the NG before all police forces were deployed, even as the Capitol was under siege.

Trump was briefed on the pre-planned minimal DC NG deployment by SecDef. Trump questioned it's adequacy. If he was planning martial law. he would have deployed more -- repeating what he did in June -- recall & deploy the entire DC NG, have the Old Guard on alert to deploy from Arlingtion, & preposition the 82nd Airborne right across the river at Ft Belvoir.

THAT is how to enforce martial law & stage an armed insurrection. Trump ordered none of that, but it was well within his powers, had recent precedent, & could have been used as an excuse to protect all of DC & Fed territory, including the Capitol.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:38 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:30 am
old salt wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:31 pm Where's the reference to the Proud Boys ?
Protect who, from who ? I speculated nothing.
I pointed out one plausible alternative to your speculation.
In the USA report, all the committee weasels said was :
The report doesn't identify the recipient of the message or detail why protection would be needed.
Meadows sent the message the day before Trump spoke at a rally near the Capitol...

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:57 pm
old salt wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:19 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:39 pm And yes, there's emerging evidence that groups like the Proud Boys etc were told that the National Guard would be on their side when it went down. They came prepared for violence.
Link ? Source ? ...plz share this emerging evidence that the National Guard would side with the protesters.
Email from Meadows saying so.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 497829001/
You're right, this is just "emerging" and is certainly incomplete.
Testify Mark. Watcha hidin' '?

But yes, protect the "pro-Trump people"...Bannon and Stone were talking with the Proud Boys, that too is "emerging".
Testify Steve and Roger. Watcha hidin' '?

Again, you keep ignoring that I also said that I very much doubt that the NG were actually 'in on' any such plan to side with the Pro-Trump" protestors.

But I do think that the 'plan' was to have the Proud boys types clash with counter protestors, declare a state of emergency and martial law, call in the NG to enforce, and declare the election for Trump. Heck, there's a powerpoint circulated to that effect. Meadows, Reps and Senators, who else was 'working the plan'?

But that doesn't mean the NG was actually on board with any of that. But would they have followed orders?
I don't buy that Miller is 100% straight, but I doubt he was actually complicit, at least not consciously so...hope that's right.
Except the DoD (aka the Pentagon) was dead set against using the NG for crowd control, from SecDef Miller & Gen Milley on down.
Read the Army report. They questioned using the NG before all police forces were deployed, even as the Capitol was under siege.

Trump was briefed on the minimal DC NG deployment. If he was planning martial law. he would have deployed more -- repeating what he did in June -- recall & deploy the entire DC NG, have the Old Guard on alert to deploy from Arlingtion, & preposition the 82nd Airborne right across the river at Ft Belvoir.

THAT is how to enforce martial law & stage an armed insurrection. Trump ordered none of that, but it was well within his powers, had recent precedent, & could have been used as an excuse to protect all of DC & Fed territory, including the Capitol.
Yup, and I'm confident that Mattis made clear to Trump that he'd face mass resignations from military command if ordered to preposition that way. Mattis was pretty darn vocal, including publicly.

But that doesn't mean that these Trump bootlickers and Trump himself weren't working the 'plan' to use the NG that way, though, according to the plan, they needed the excuse of violence with counter protestors. And that never happened.

As I've repeatedly said, I remain suspicious but cautiously optimistic that Miller wasn't knowingly involved with any efforts to slow walk in order to serve Trump's interests...in the scenario you seem to suggest, Miller may have been slow precisely because he was fearful of the NG being misused by Trump?

This notion that "all police forces were deployed" is a heck of a standard...it's not as if the police didn't have lots else to do that day...or are you saying all special actions and response forces had been deployed? Pretty sure that was done early on... And really? when begged for help and you can see on TV screen that they're massively outmanned, you're wondering whether they've exhausted all their other resources so you slow walk your own response???
ggait
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by ggait »

As bad as the 1/6 riot was, it really isn't the craziest or scariest part of what was going on. The physical riot was just one small piece of a much bigger outrage.

The scary part was the widespread, months-long, organized effort to overturn the election. With no basis whatsoever. Which effort had so many pieces and so many co-conspirators -- Meadows, Giuliani, John Eastman, Jeff Clark, Phil Waldron, Sid Powell, the FNC talking heads, nutsos in the swing state legislatures, and the GOP snakes in the House and Senate Freedom Caucus. They are all just scum.

Those forking traitors should spend their remaining days in publicly shamed unemployment and fighting off bankrupting lawsuits. None of them will probably be convicted of anything, which is also crazy. But they should live their well-earned infamy and dishonor every forking day like the modern day Benedict Arnolds they are.

And they probably came much closer to prevailing than you'd expect. Things are really hanging by a thread if it comes down to a handful of people (Raffensberger, Al Schmidt, Chris Krebs, Pence and freaking Dan Quayle!) to save the Republic. What are the chances that a group of GOP-ers like that will still be in place in 2022 or 2024?

I feel like Stop the Steal and 1/6 was the proof on concept on how to steal elections in the future.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
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old salt
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by old salt »

This notion that "all police forces were deployed" is a heck of a standard...it's not as if the police didn't have lots else to do that day...or are you saying all special actions and response forces had been deployed? Pretty sure that was done early on... And really? when begged for help and you can see on TV screen that they're massively outmanned, you're wondering whether they've exhausted all their other resources so you slow walk your own response???
In the Army report, at some points, SecDef Miller, LTG Piatt, or both, metioned deployment of all available police forces & FBI tactical teams.
It was because of the need for forces capable of clearing the Capitol building, rather than just crowd control.
By the time DoD got the request for "reinforcements", it was beyond the need for crowd control. They needed forces capable of going room to room to clear buildings. The NG are not trained for that. Police, law enforcement & Fed agents are.
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:18 pm
This notion that "all police forces were deployed" is a heck of a standard...it's not as if the police didn't have lots else to do that day...or are you saying all special actions and response forces had been deployed? Pretty sure that was done early on... And really? when begged for help and you can see on TV screen that they're massively outmanned, you're wondering whether they've exhausted all their other resources so you slow walk your own response???
In the Army report, at some points, SecDef Miller, LTG Piatt, or both, metioned deployment of all available police forces & FBI tactical teams.
It was because of the need for forces capable of clearing the Capitol building, rather than just crowd control.
By the time DoD got the request for "reinforcements", it was beyond the need for crowd control. They needed forces capable of going room to room to clear buildings. The NG are not trained for that. Police, law enforcement & Fed agents are.
They sure as heck needed "crowd control"...the most violent only were able to get away with what they did because of the massive mob behind them, the crush of the overall weight. Massively outmanned.

I'll await the Jan 6 analysis and recommendations.
I'm hoping that Miller et al didn't really screw the pooch out of anything more than failure to realize how desperate the situation was, requiring moving heaven and earth to help ASAP...but it sure looks like they dawdled, at least from this vantage point.
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Kismet
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by Kismet »

ggait wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:12 pm As bad as the 1/6 riot was, it really isn't the craziest or scariest part of what was going on. The physical riot was just one small piece of a much bigger outrage.

The scary part was the widespread, months-long, organized effort to overturn the election. With no basis whatsoever. Which effort had so many pieces and so many co-conspirators -- Meadows, Giuliani, John Eastman, Jeff Clark, Phil Waldron, Sid Powell, the FNC talking heads, nutsos in the swing state legislatures, and the GOP snakes in the House and Senate Freedom Caucus. They are all just scum.

Those forking traitors should spend their remaining days in publicly shamed unemployment and fighting off bankrupting lawsuits. None of them will probably be convicted of anything, which is also crazy. But they should live their well-earned infamy and dishonor every forking day like the modern day Benedict Arnolds they are.

And they probably came much closer to prevailing than you'd expect. Things are really hanging by a thread if it comes down to a handful of people (Raffensberger, Al Schmidt, Chris Krebs, Pence and freaking Dan Quayle!) to save the Republic. What are the chances that a group of GOP-ers like that will still be in place in 2022 or 2024?

I feel like Stop the Steal and 1/6 was the proof on concept on how to steal elections in the future.
+ bazillion :!: :!: :!: :!:

Add another dirtbag to the list - Former TX governor/energy secretary Rick Perry allegedly was the source of the infamous of a text message sent to then-White House chief of staff Mark Meadows the day after the 2020 election pushing an "AGRESSIVE STRATEGY" for three state legislatures to ignore the will of their voters and deliver their states' electors to Donald Trump. The dope used a listed cel phone number that was traced back to him by committee investigators. The timing of the text was before any of the states had their elections called. Proof that they were plotting to overturn the election results before all of the votes were even counted.

"HERE's an AGRESSIVE STRATEGY: Why can't the states of GA NC PENN and other R controlled state houses declare this is BS (where conflicts and election not called that night) and just send their own electors to vote and have it go to the SCOTUS."


I'm with Liz Cheney on this - "It should be increasingly clear the 'rioters' were foot soldiers in service to a much more vicious collection of criminals—a group of GOP extremists who were not only willing to watch people die, but rub their hands in glee over democracy’s demise."
Last edited by Kismet on Sat Dec 18, 2021 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Perry's indeed an idiot, but I didn't think he was this much of a Trump toady...

Of course, probably pretty profitable for him in that role...hard to give up... :shock:
seacoaster
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by seacoaster »

While Old Salt talks about deck chairs, there's this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... -military/

"As we approach the first anniversary of the deadly insurrection at the U.S. Capitol, we — all of us former senior military officials — are increasingly concerned about the aftermath of the 2024 presidential election and the potential for lethal chaos inside our military, which would put all Americans at severe risk.

In short: We are chilled to our bones at the thought of a coup succeeding next time.

One of our military’s strengths is that it draws from our diverse population. It is a collection of individuals, all with different beliefs and backgrounds. But without constant maintenance, the potential for a military breakdown mirroring societal or political breakdown is very real.

The signs of potential turmoil in our armed forces are there. On Jan. 6, a disturbing number of veterans and active-duty members of the military took part in the attack on the Capitol. More than 1 in 10 of those charged in the attacks had a service record. A group of 124 retired military officials, under the name “Flag Officers 4 America,” released a letter echoing Donald Trump’s false attacks on the legitimacy of our elections.

Recently, and perhaps more worrying, Brig. Gen. Thomas Mancino, the commanding general of the Oklahoma National Guard, refused an order from President Biden mandating that all National Guard members be vaccinated against the coronavirus. Mancino claimed that while the Oklahoma Guard is not federally mobilized, his commander in chief is the Republican governor of the state, not the president.

The potential for a total breakdown of the chain of command along partisan lines — from the top of the chain to squad level — is significant should another insurrection occur. The idea of rogue units organizing among themselves to support the “rightful” commander in chief cannot be dismissed.

Imagine competing commanders in chief — a newly reelected Biden giving orders, versus Trump (or another Trumpian figure) issuing orders as the head of a shadow government. Worse, imagine politicians at the state and federal levels illegally installing a losing candidate as president.

All service members take an oath to protect the U.S. Constitution. But in a contested election, with loyalties split, some might follow orders from the rightful commander in chief, while others might follow the Trumpian loser. Arms might not be secured depending on who was overseeing them. Under such a scenario, it is not outlandish to say a military breakdown could lead to civil war.

In this context, with our military hobbled and divided, U.S. security would be crippled. Any one of our enemies could take advantage by launching an all-out assault on our assets or our allies.

The lack of military preparedness for the aftermath of the 2020 election was striking and worrying. Trump’s acting defense secretary, Christopher C. Miller, testified that he deliberately withheld military protection of the Capitol before Jan. 6. Army Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, reportedly scrambled to ensure the nation’s nuclear defense chains were secure from illegal orders. It is evident the whole of our military was caught off-guard.

With the country still as divided as ever, we must take steps to prepare for the worst.

First, everything must be done to prevent another insurrection. Not a single leader who inspired it has been held to account. Our elected officials and those who enforce the law — including the Justice Department, the House select committee and the whole of Congress — must show more urgency.

But the military cannot wait for elected officials to act. The Pentagon should immediately order a civics review for all members — uniformed and civilian — on the Constitution and electoral integrity. There must also be a review of the laws of war and how to identify and deal with illegal orders. And it must reinforce “unity of command” to make perfectly clear to every member of the Defense Department whom they answer to. No service member should say they didn’t understand whom to take orders from during a worst-case scenario.

In addition, all military branches must undertake more intensive intelligence work at all installations. The goal should be to identify, isolate and remove potential mutineers; guard against efforts by propagandists who use misinformation to subvert the chain of command; and understand how that and other misinformation spreads across the ranks after it is introduced by propagandists.

Finally, the Defense Department should war-game the next potential post-election insurrection or coup attempt to identify weak spots. It must then conduct a top-down debrief of its findings and begin putting in place safeguards to prevent breakdowns not just in the military, but also in any agency that works hand in hand with the military.

The military and lawmakers have been gifted hindsight to prevent another insurrection from happening in 2024 — but they will succeed only if they take decisive action now."
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old salt
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by old salt »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:32 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:18 pm
This notion that "all police forces were deployed" is a heck of a standard...it's not as if the police didn't have lots else to do that day...or are you saying all special actions and response forces had been deployed? Pretty sure that was done early on... And really? when begged for help and you can see on TV screen that they're massively outmanned, you're wondering whether they've exhausted all their other resources so you slow walk your own response???
In the Army report, at some points, SecDef Miller, LTG Piatt, or both, metioned deployment of all available police forces & FBI tactical teams.
It was because of the need for forces capable of clearing the Capitol building, rather than just crowd control.
By the time DoD got the request for "reinforcements", it was beyond the need for crowd control. They needed forces capable of going room to room to clear buildings. The NG are not trained for that. Police, law enforcement & Fed agents are.
They sure as heck needed "crowd control"...the most violent only were able to get away with what they did because of the massive mob behind them, the crush of the overall weight. Massively outmanned.

I'll await the Jan 6 analysis and recommendations.
I'm hoping that Miller et al didn't really screw the pooch out of anything more than failure to realize how desperate the situation was, requiring moving heaven and earth to help ASAP...but it sure looks like they dawdled, at least from this vantage point.
That's because you refuse to inform your vantage point. Did you bother to review the Army report ? It's in pdf, so I can't post quotes.
https://www.politico.com/f/?id=0000017d ... db02d50000
note -- the Capitol bldg is breached only 23 min after Chief Sund's initial request to MG Walker & evac begins just 31 min after the request.
There's no way the 40 man QRF, sitting out at Andrews expecting to relieve MPD on traffic duty, could be repurposed & deployed to the Capitol, via the Armory, fast enough to have made a difference.
By the earliest the NG could have arrived, crowd control was no longer needed. The crowd was dissipating & non-vilolent protesters were roaming the building. CP, MPD & tactical teams were well into clearing the building.

Regarding SecDef Miller -- even the DC NG JAG Col who called the Pentagon Generals & IG liars in his angry 36 pg memo, didn't throw shade on Miller like you are. He was a personal friend who referred to Miller as Chris. You're as willfully un-informed & biased as those 2 congressional clowns in the video clips I posted.
https://www.politico.com/f/?id=0000017d ... da79e90000
ggait
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by ggait »

I'm with Liz Cheney on this - "It should be increasingly clear the 'rioters' were foot soldiers in service to a much more vicious collection of criminals—a group of GOP extremists who were not only willing to watch people die, but rub their hands in glee over democracy’s demise."
It is amazing to me that most of the coup-sters (including, of course, DJT himself) will likely be able to continue on as successful public figures, candidates, re-elected officials, well paid employees, and (in many cases) members of the bar. Maybe it isn't right for them to be landed in jail, but they certainly should be shunned, shamed, ostracized as complete degenerates. By both parties.

One can only hope that there will be a special place in hell waiting for them eventually.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
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old salt
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by old salt »

old salt wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:43 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:32 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:18 pm
This notion that "all police forces were deployed" is a heck of a standard...it's not as if the police didn't have lots else to do that day...or are you saying all special actions and response forces had been deployed? Pretty sure that was done early on... And really? when begged for help and you can see on TV screen that they're massively outmanned, you're wondering whether they've exhausted all their other resources so you slow walk your own response???
In the Army report, at some points, SecDef Miller, LTG Piatt, or both, metioned deployment of all available police forces & FBI tactical teams.
It was because of the need for forces capable of clearing the Capitol building, rather than just crowd control.
By the time DoD got the request for "reinforcements", it was beyond the need for crowd control. They needed forces capable of going room to room to clear buildings. The NG are not trained for that. Police, law enforcement & Fed agents are.
They sure as heck needed "crowd control"...the most violent only were able to get away with what they did because of the massive mob behind them, the crush of the overall weight. Massively outmanned.

I'll await the Jan 6 analysis and recommendations.
I'm hoping that Miller et al didn't really screw the pooch out of anything more than failure to realize how desperate the situation was, requiring moving heaven and earth to help ASAP...but it sure looks like they dawdled, at least from this vantage point.
That's because you refuse to inform your vantage point. Did you bother to review the Army report ? It's in pdf, so I can't post quotes.
https://www.politico.com/f/?id=0000017d ... db02d50000
note -- the Capitol bldg is breached only 23 min after Chief Sund's initial request to MG Walker & evac begins just 31 min after the request.
There's no way the 40 man QRF, sitting out at Andrews expecting to relieve MPD on traffic duty, could be repurposed, equipped & deployed to the Capitol, via the Armory, fast enough to have made a difference.
By the earliest the NG could have arrived, crowd control was no longer needed. The crowd was dissipating & non-vilolent protesters were roaming the building. CP, MPD & tactical teams were well into clearing the building.

Regarding SecDef Miller -- even the DC NG JAG, Col Matthews, who called the Pentagon Generals & IG liars, in his angry 36 pg memo, didn't throw shade on Miller like you are. He was a personal friend who referred to Miller as Chris. You're as willfully un-informed & biased as those 2 congressional clowns in the video clips I posted.
https://www.politico.com/f/?id=0000017d ... da79e90000
pg 15 -A former senior DoD official, Matthews was a personal friend and former work colleague
of both Acting Secretary Miller and Secretary of the Army McCarthy, he just happened to be the
DCNG’s top lawyer as a part-time job.

McCarthy and Matthews are friends. They
were among the first Trump political appointees at the Pentagon together. They had each others
personal cell phones, they called each other on weekends. McCarthy never referred to Matthews
as “COL Matthews,” but as “Earl”.

Matthews also found the story about Chris Miller requiring a back brief before DCNG
could be launched to Capitol Hill to be strangely odd. Miller was the most informal government
official that Matthews had ever known. He was a laid back Iowa farm boy, turned DC
Guardsmen (while attending GWU), turned Green Beret Colonel/secret warrior for a special
mission unit. He was a guy who believed in cutting through bureaucracy and getting stuff done.
Requiring McCarthy to come back to Miller when the Capitol was under siege sounded strange.
As an Army officer, Chris had trusted and empowered subordinate leaders to make life or death
decisions. Requiring a formal backbrief in the midst of a national emergency didn’t sound right.
Not for a Tier 1 operator like Chris Miller....
CU88
Posts: 4431
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:59 pm

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by CU88 »

Kismet wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:32 pm
ggait wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:12 pm As bad as the 1/6 riot was, it really isn't the craziest or scariest part of what was going on. The physical riot was just one small piece of a much bigger outrage.

The scary part was the widespread, months-long, organized effort to overturn the election. With no basis whatsoever. Which effort had so many pieces and so many co-conspirators -- Meadows, Giuliani, John Eastman, Jeff Clark, Phil Waldron, Sid Powell, the FNC talking heads, nutsos in the swing state legislatures, and the GOP snakes in the House and Senate Freedom Caucus. They are all just scum.

Those forking traitors should spend their remaining days in publicly shamed unemployment and fighting off bankrupting lawsuits. None of them will probably be convicted of anything, which is also crazy. But they should live their well-earned infamy and dishonor every forking day like the modern day Benedict Arnolds they are.

And they probably came much closer to prevailing than you'd expect. Things are really hanging by a thread if it comes down to a handful of people (Raffensberger, Al Schmidt, Chris Krebs, Pence and freaking Dan Quayle!) to save the Republic. What are the chances that a group of GOP-ers like that will still be in place in 2022 or 2024?

I feel like Stop the Steal and 1/6 was the proof on concept on how to steal elections in the future.
+ bazillion :!: :!: :!: :!:

Add another dirtbag to the list - Former TX governor/energy secretary Rick Perry allegedly was the source of the infamous of a text message sent to then-White House chief of staff Mark Meadows the day after the 2020 election pushing an "AGRESSIVE STRATEGY" for three state legislatures to ignore the will of their voters and deliver their states' electors to Donald Trump. The dope used a listed cel phone number that was traced back to him by committee investigators. The timing of the text was before any of the states had their elections called.

"HERE's an AGRESSIVE STRATEGY: Why can't the states of GA NC PENN and other R controlled state houses declare this is BS (where conflicts and election not called that night) and just send their own electors to vote and have it go to the SCOTUS."


I'm with Liz Cheney on this - "It should be increasingly clear the 'rioters' were foot soldiers in service to a much more vicious collection of criminals—a group of GOP extremists who were not only willing to watch people die, but rub their hands in glee over democracy’s demise."
+1


December 17, 2021
Heather Cox Richardson
Dec 18

Tonight CNN broke the story that members of the House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the U.S. Capitol think they know who wrote one of the eye-popping texts to Trump’s White House chief of staff, Mark Meadows.

The text was the one sent the day after the election, before all the states had called the election, suggesting that Republicans should not wait for results in three states but should simply appoint their own electors. Then the whole mess would be thrown to the Supreme Court. Trump had frequently said that the Supreme Court, to which he had named three justices—including one at the very end of October, when the election was already underway—would decide in favor of him in the case of a contested election.

The text suggested that the Republicans should throw out the foundation of our democracy—the principle that we have a say in our government—and should simply decide on their own who had been elected.

CNN has confirmed from a number of sources that the phone number on that text belonged to former Texas governor and Trump energy secretary Rick Perry. Perry’s spokesperson says Perry denies that he wrote the text. The spokesperson could not explain why that phone number was registered to Perry’s name and email address.

The momentum behind the January 6th committee appears to be picking up. This morning, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) told Spectrum News that the attack on the Capitol on January 6 “was a horrendous event and I think that what they’re seeking to find out is something the public needs to know.”

McConnell arranged Trump’s second impeachment to guarantee an acquittal, and he tried to scuttle an investigation of the insurrection. His wife, Elaine Chao, was transportation secretary in the Trump administration and resigned her position on January 7, 2021, saying that she “simply cannot set aside” how troubled she was “as supporters of the President stormed the Capitol building following a rally he addressed.”

The committee has been effective, interviewing hundreds of witnesses without leaks, issuing a broad range of subpoenas, and referring uncooperative witnesses to the Department of Justice for contempt of Congress. That efficiency is possible because the committee is not constantly fighting the sort of grandstanding and construction of false counternarratives we saw Republicans engaging in during the impeachment hearings.

House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) tried to keep that sort of disinformation in play by putting far-right Representatives Jim Jordan (R-OH) and Jim Banks (R-IN) on the committee, but House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) rejected them and put Representatives Liz Cheney (R-WY) and Adam Kinzinger (R-IL) on the committee instead.

Now it turns out that Jordan was part of the insurrection McCarthy wanted him to investigate: Jordan texted Trump’s White House chief of staff Mark Meadows on November 5, offering a plan for how Vice President Mike Pence could toss out Biden’s electors and throw the election to Trump.

Trump’s longtime associate Roger Stone appeared today before the January 6th committee but invoked his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination for every question. Today, the U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia filed a status report informing the court that four defendants who pleaded guilty in the Oath Keepers conspiracy case concerning the January 6 insurrection are still cooperating with the investigation. The Oath Keepers provided security for Stone in Washington at the time of the insurrection. Stone has asked supporters for donations to his “legal defense fund.”

In other news from January 6, today a judge sentenced Robert Palmer of Florida, who threw a fire extinguisher at police on January 6 in the worst of the fighting at the U.S. Capitol, to more than five years in prison, the longest sentence handed down so far. Palmer blamed Trump for lying to supporters that the election was stolen and calling on them to “stand up to tyranny.” More than 700 people have been charged in that attack.
by cradleandshoot » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:57 am
Mr moderator, deactivate my account.
You have heck this forum up to making it nothing more than a joke. I hope you are happy.
This is cradle and shoot signing out.
:roll: :roll: :roll:
CU88
Posts: 4431
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:59 pm

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by CU88 »

I keep forgetting that chain of command means nothing to the USA military


Oklahoma Guard commander defends rejecting vaccine mandate as Pentagon warns troops who refuse

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... nal-guard/

The Oklahoma National Guard’s commanding general Wednesday defended his directive countermanding federal requirements that all U.S. military personnel be vaccinated against the coronavirus, telling troops in a private town hall event that he was following orders from the state’s Republican governor and meant no disrespect to his superiors at the Pentagon.

Brig. Gen. Thomas Mancino, speaking to several dozen members of the Oklahoma National Guard in Oklahoma City, cast himself as an apolitical leader bound by law to answer to Gov. Kevin Stitt (R), who fired the state’s previous National Guard commander last week and ordered Mancino the next day to issue a policy allowing members to avoid the vaccine.
by cradleandshoot » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:57 am
Mr moderator, deactivate my account.
You have heck this forum up to making it nothing more than a joke. I hope you are happy.
This is cradle and shoot signing out.
:roll: :roll: :roll:
PizzaSnake
Posts: 5277
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:36 pm

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by PizzaSnake »

CU88 wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 3:58 pm I keep forgetting that chain of command means nothing to the USA military


Oklahoma Guard commander defends rejecting vaccine mandate as Pentagon warns troops who refuse

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... nal-guard/

The Oklahoma National Guard’s commanding general Wednesday defended his directive countermanding federal requirements that all U.S. military personnel be vaccinated against the coronavirus, telling troops in a private town hall event that he was following orders from the state’s Republican governor and meant no disrespect to his superiors at the Pentagon.

Brig. Gen. Thomas Mancino, speaking to several dozen members of the Oklahoma National Guard in Oklahoma City, cast himself as an apolitical leader bound by law to answer to Gov. Kevin Stitt (R), who fired the state’s previous National Guard commander last week and ordered Mancino the next day to issue a policy allowing members to avoid the vaccine.
Separate him from the US military. Let Caesar pay him…
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 27034
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

PizzaSnake wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 6:02 pm
CU88 wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 3:58 pm I keep forgetting that chain of command means nothing to the USA military


Oklahoma Guard commander defends rejecting vaccine mandate as Pentagon warns troops who refuse

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... nal-guard/

The Oklahoma National Guard’s commanding general Wednesday defended his directive countermanding federal requirements that all U.S. military personnel be vaccinated against the coronavirus, telling troops in a private town hall event that he was following orders from the state’s Republican governor and meant no disrespect to his superiors at the Pentagon.

Brig. Gen. Thomas Mancino, speaking to several dozen members of the Oklahoma National Guard in Oklahoma City, cast himself as an apolitical leader bound by law to answer to Gov. Kevin Stitt (R), who fired the state’s previous National Guard commander last week and ordered Mancino the next day to issue a policy allowing members to avoid the vaccine.
Separate him from the US military. Let Caesar pay him…
Yup, should be court martialed, dishonorably discharged etc...whatever is appropriate in the Guard. But out.
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