~46~ Lame Duck Unfit Uncle Joe Biden ~46~

[MDlaxfan76]

The Germans are not going to "lead" militarily and I'm not so sure we'd be well served to ask them to ever again embrace a world leadership role in military capacity. No thanks.

That's racist. They are the leaders of the EU. Do you feel the same way about the Japanese ?

funny.
I don't want the Japanese to ever again be a militaristic society either...heck, there really isn't anyone I'd be suggesting such!

But I do agree with you that Nord 2 is the very interesting strategic card; unfortunately, it cuts both ways. You don't like prices at the pump now? Watch what happens if there's a shut off of Russian oil and gas...

Nordstream 2 is natural gas, not oil. It's not open yet. There's plenty of pipeline capacity. This just makes it cheaper by providing a way to strangle Ukraine & to avoid transit fees to other nations.

I certainly understand the pricing interrelationships between various energy sources...hunch would be that I understand better than you, but you do certainly know a heck of a lot more than me on some other topics, so maybe you do...I was speaking more generally about the strategic threat of cutting off oil and gas purchases from Russia, crushing their economy, should this get to that point...but it is indeed a two sided sword, so even threatening that card can spook markets.

[old salt]

The Germans are not going to "lead" militarily and I'm not so sure we'd be well served to ask them to ever again embrace a world leadership role in military capacity. No thanks.

That's racist. They are the leaders of the EU. Do you feel the same way about the Japanese ?

funny.
I don't want the Japanese to ever again be a militaristic society either...heck, there really isn't anyone I'd be suggesting such!

But I do agree with you that Nord 2 is the very interesting strategic card; unfortunately, it cuts both ways. You don't like prices at the pump now? Watch what happens if there's a shut off of Russian oil and gas...

Nordstream 2 is natural gas, not oil. It's not open yet. There's plenty of pipeline capacity. This just makes it cheaper by providing a way to strangle Ukraine & to avoid transit fees to other nations.

I certainly understand the pricing interrelationships between various energy sources...hunch would be that I understand better than you, but you do certainly know a heck of a lot more than me on some other topics, so maybe you do...I was speaking more generally about the strategic threat of cutting off oil and gas purchases from Russia, crushing their economy, should this get to that point...but it is indeed a two sided sword, so even threatening that card can spook markets.

I say again. Nordstream 2 is not in operation yet. There is sufficient existing natural gas transit capacity without Nordstream 2. Not starting it up would not disrupt energy markets since it is not yet a factor. What it does allow is a way to avoid paying transit fees to other nations. Most importantly, it allows Russia to squeeze or even invade Ukraine while still supplying the EU.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-e ... SKBN2AN2B7

EU says it does not need Nord Stream 2, but only Germany can block it

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The European Union does not need the Nord Stream 2 pipeline for its energy security but any decision to stop the project carrying Russian natural gas to Germany would have to come from Berlin, a senior European Commission official said on Tuesday.

The $11 billion pipeline project led by Russia’s state energy company Gazprom, which is more than 90% complete, would double the capacity of an existing undersea pipeline which bypasses Ukraine and deprives Kyiv of transit fees.

The project pits Germany, the EU’s biggest economy, against central and eastern European nations who say it would increase the bloc’s dependence on Russian gas.

“For the European Union as a whole, Nord Stream does not contribute to security of supply,” Ditte Juul Jorgensen, Director General of the Commission’s energy department, told lawmakers in the European Parliament’s industry committee.

Investments over the last decade in other pipelines, liquefied natural gas import terminals and interconnectors in Europe have already secured enough supply to meet the bloc’s energy needs, she said.

Any decision to halt the project would need to be made by Germany, Juul Jorgensen said.

“Actually stopping the construction would require a decision at national level. It’s not a decision that can be taken at European level,” she said.

Nord Stream 2 has faced increased scrutiny as European relations with Russia have deteriorated over the treatment of Kremlin critic Alexei Navalny.

The European Parliament called last month for the EU to stop the pipeline being completed in response to Navalny’s arrest.

On Monday, EU foreign ministers agreed to impose sanctions on four senior Russian officials close to President Vladimir Putin in a mainly symbolic move over the issue.

Despite U.S. sanctions against the pipeline, Berlin has stood by Nord Stream 2, which it says is a commercial project.

[MDlaxfan76]

The Germans are not going to "lead" militarily and I'm not so sure we'd be well served to ask them to ever again embrace a world leadership role in military capacity. No thanks.

That's racist. They are the leaders of the EU. Do you feel the same way about the Japanese ?

funny.
I don't want the Japanese to ever again be a militaristic society either...heck, there really isn't anyone I'd be suggesting such!

But I do agree with you that Nord 2 is the very interesting strategic card; unfortunately, it cuts both ways. You don't like prices at the pump now? Watch what happens if there's a shut off of Russian oil and gas...

Nordstream 2 is natural gas, not oil. It's not open yet. There's plenty of pipeline capacity. This just makes it cheaper by providing a way to strangle Ukraine & to avoid transit fees to other nations.

I certainly understand the pricing interrelationships between various energy sources...hunch would be that I understand better than you, but you do certainly know a heck of a lot more than me on some other topics, so maybe you do...I was speaking more generally about the strategic threat of cutting off oil and gas purchases from Russia, crushing their economy, should this get to that point...but it is indeed a two sided sword, so even threatening that card can spook markets.

I say again. Nordstream 2 is not in operation yet. There is sufficient existing natural gas transit capacity without Nordstream 2. Not starting it up would not disrupt energy markets since it is not yet a factor. What it does allow is a way to avoid paying transit fees to other nations. Most importantly, it allows Russia to squeeze or even invade Ukraine while still supplying the EU.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-e ... SKBN2AN2B7

EU says it does not need Nord Stream 2, but only Germany can block it

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The European Union does not need the Nord Stream 2 pipeline for its energy security but any decision to stop the project carrying Russian natural gas to Germany would have to come from Berlin, a senior European Commission official said on Tuesday.

The $11 billion pipeline project led by Russia’s state energy company Gazprom, which is more than 90% complete, would double the capacity of an existing undersea pipeline which bypasses Ukraine and deprives Kyiv of transit fees.

The project pits Germany, the EU’s biggest economy, against central and eastern European nations who say it would increase the bloc’s dependence on Russian gas.

“For the European Union as a whole, Nord Stream does not contribute to security of supply,” Ditte Juul Jorgensen, Director General of the Commission’s energy department, told lawmakers in the European Parliament’s industry committee.

Investments over the last decade in other pipelines, liquefied natural gas import terminals and interconnectors in Europe have already secured enough supply to meet the bloc’s energy needs, she said.

Any decision to halt the project would need to be made by Germany, Juul Jorgensen said.

“Actually stopping the construction would require a decision at national level. It’s not a decision that can be taken at European level,” she said.

Nord Stream 2 has faced increased scrutiny as European relations with Russia have deteriorated over the treatment of Kremlin critic Alexei Navalny.

The European Parliament called last month for the EU to stop the pipeline being completed in response to Navalny’s arrest.

On Monday, EU foreign ministers agreed to impose sanctions on four senior Russian officials close to President Vladimir Putin in a mainly symbolic move over the issue.

Despite U.S. sanctions against the pipeline, Berlin has stood by Nord Stream 2, which it says is a commercial project.

I understood your point before.
But energy markets are heavily influenced by future expectations as well as short term supply.
Nord 2 would lower energy prices for Germany and others because it would be cheaper than LNG reliance.
And the expectation of such influences prices now as well.

And to be clear once again, look at what I bolded in blue.
"Watch what happens if there's a shut off of Russian oil and gas.."
That's not simply threatening not to open Nord 2, it's a shut off...that's what would really matter to Russia.

[old salt]

And to be clear once again, look at what I bolded in blue.
"Watch what happens if there's a shut off of Russian oil and gas.."
That's not simply threatening not to open Nord 2, it's a shut off...that's what would really matter to Russia.

You are misrepresenting my position -- ONLY withhold opening of Nord 2 until there is a settlement ensuring Ukraine's survival,

NOT a complete shut down of other pipelines from Russia which would unacceptably punish EU users.

Nord 2 will allow Russia to invade &/or bypass/strangle Ukraine, while still selling to EU.

Without Nord 2, Russia is econ depn on transit via Ukraine, making invasion unacceptably painful economically.

[MDlaxfan76]

And to be clear once again, look at what I bolded in blue.
"Watch what happens if there's a shut off of Russian oil and gas.."
That's not simply threatening not to open Nord 2, it's a shut off...that's what would really matter to Russia.

You are misrepresenting my position -- ONLY withhold opening of Nord 2 until there is a settlement ensuring Ukraine's survival,

NOT a complete shut down of other pipelines from Russia which would unacceptably punish EU users.

Nord 2 will allow Russia to invade &/or bypass/strangle Ukraine, while still selling to EU.

Without Nord 2, Russia is econ depn on transit via Ukraine, making invasion unacceptably painful economically.

What the heck am I misrepresenting???
I've distinguished between what you said and something much more significant to Vlad, an actual constriction on Russia's economy.

Your last point, though, is interesting and incremental.
Do you think a threat to stop Nord 2 would mean the withdrawal of Russian forces?

How about a threat that if he did invade, Nord 2 would stop?

Bottomline, we want Vlad to back off and find another project with which to distract his populace from their brutally awful COVID response.

[old salt]

And to be clear once again, look at what I bolded in blue.
"Watch what happens if there's a shut off of Russian oil and gas.."
That's not simply threatening not to open Nord 2, it's a shut off...that's what would really matter to Russia.

You are misrepresenting my position -- ONLY withhold opening of Nord 2 until there is a settlement ensuring Ukraine's survival,

NOT a complete shut down of other pipelines from Russia which would unacceptably punish EU users.

Nord 2 will allow Russia to invade &/or bypass/strangle Ukraine, while still selling to EU.

Without Nord 2, Russia is econ depn on transit via Ukraine, making invasion unacceptably painful economically.

What the heck am I misrepresenting???
I've distinguished between what you said and something much more significant to Vlad, an actual constriction on Russia's economy.

Your last point, though, is interesting and incremental.
Do you think a threat to stop Nord 2 would mean the withdrawal of Russian forces?

How about a threat that if he did invade, Nord 2 would stop?

Bottomline, we want Vlad to back off and find another project with which to distract his populace from their brutally awful COVID response.

You responded to my proposal of delaying the opening of Nord 2 with a warning about a total shutdown, which was not my recommendation.

But I do agree with you that Nord 2 is the very interesting strategic card; unfortunately, it cuts both ways. You don't like prices at the pump now? Watch what happens if there's a shut off of Russian oil and gas..

I certainly understand the pricing interrelationships between various energy sources...hunch would be that I understand better than you, but you do certainly know a heck of a lot more than me on some other topics, so maybe you do...I was speaking more generally about the strategic threat of cutting off oil and gas purchases from Russia, crushing their economy, should this get to that point...but it is indeed a two sided sword, so even threatening that card can spook markets.

[Kismet]

Isn't the one of the main points of Nordstream 2 to bypass transiting Russian gas through Ukraine thus lowering the cost to the Germans and reducing the leverage and revenue to squeeze Ukraine for the Russians?

[PizzaSnake]

Isn't the one of the main points of Nordstream 2 to bypass transiting Russian gas through Ukraine thus lowering the cost to the Germans and reducing the leverage and revenue to squeeze Ukraine for the Russians?

Probably the greatest reason for abandoning fossil fuels would be the ability to divorce US foreign policy from these unsavory bedfellows. Of course, we (US), have quite a few unsavory elements within… and they seem to call the tune.

[old salt]

Isn't the one of the main points of Nordstream 2 to bypass transiting Russian gas through Ukraine thus lowering the cost to the Germans and reducing the leverage and revenue to squeeze Ukraine for the Russians?

That's one of the results. It will allow Russia to invade Ukraine without disrupting supply to Germany.

[tech37]

Isn't the one of the main points of Nordstream 2 to bypass transiting Russian gas through Ukraine thus lowering the cost to the Germans and reducing the leverage and revenue to squeeze Ukraine for the Russians?

That's one of the results. It will allow Russia to invade Ukraine without disrupting supply to Germany.

3 more years of Biden admin...OS, do you think Ukraine and Taiwan are already lost?

[old salt]

Isn't the one of the main points of Nordstream 2 to bypass transiting Russian gas through Ukraine thus lowering the cost to the Germans and reducing the leverage and revenue to squeeze Ukraine for the Russians?

That's one of the results. It will allow Russia to invade Ukraine without disrupting supply to Germany.

3 more years of Biden admin...OS, do you think Ukraine and Taiwan are already lost?

Who knows ? My worst fear is that Russia & China both invade after the olympics,

[MDlaxfan76]

And to be clear once again, look at what I bolded in blue.
"Watch what happens if there's a shut off of Russian oil and gas.."
That's not simply threatening not to open Nord 2, it's a shut off...that's what would really matter to Russia.

You are misrepresenting my position -- ONLY withhold opening of Nord 2 until there is a settlement ensuring Ukraine's survival,

NOT a complete shut down of other pipelines from Russia which would unacceptably punish EU users.

Nord 2 will allow Russia to invade &/or bypass/strangle Ukraine, while still selling to EU.

Without Nord 2, Russia is econ depn on transit via Ukraine, making invasion unacceptably painful economically.

What the heck am I misrepresenting???
I've distinguished between what you said and something much more significant to Vlad, an actual constriction on Russia's economy.

Your last point, though, is interesting and incremental.
Do you think a threat to stop Nord 2 would mean the withdrawal of Russian forces?

How about a threat that if he did invade, Nord 2 would stop?

Bottomline, we want Vlad to back off and find another project with which to distract his populace from their brutally awful COVID response.

You responded to my proposal of delaying the opening of Nord 2 with a warning about a total shutdown, which was not my recommendation.

But I do agree with you that Nord 2 is the very interesting strategic card; unfortunately, it cuts both ways. You don't like prices at the pump now? Watch what happens if there's a shut off of Russian oil and gas..

I certainly understand the pricing interrelationships between various energy sources...hunch would be that I understand better than you, but you do certainly know a heck of a lot more than me on some other topics, so maybe you do...I was speaking more generally about the strategic threat of cutting off oil and gas purchases from Russia, crushing their economy, should this get to that point...but it is indeed a two sided sword, so even threatening that card can spook markets.

Yup and then I clarified multiple times, exactly what I'd meant. But you ignored.

[MDlaxfan76]

Isn't the one of the main points of Nordstream 2 to bypass transiting Russian gas through Ukraine thus lowering the cost to the Germans and reducing the leverage and revenue to squeeze Ukraine for the Russians?

That's one of the results. It will allow Russia to invade Ukraine without disrupting supply to Germany.

3 more years of Biden admin...OS, do you think Ukraine and Taiwan are already lost?

If so, would you imagine a different outcome with the former POTUS at the helm?

[old salt]

And to be clear once again, look at what I bolded in blue.
"Watch what happens if there's a shut off of Russian oil and gas.."
That's not simply threatening not to open Nord 2, it's a shut off...that's what would really matter to Russia.

You are misrepresenting my position -- ONLY withhold opening of Nord 2 until there is a settlement ensuring Ukraine's survival,

NOT a complete shut down of other pipelines from Russia which would unacceptably punish EU users.

Nord 2 will allow Russia to invade &/or bypass/strangle Ukraine, while still selling to EU.

Without Nord 2, Russia is econ depn on transit via Ukraine, making invasion unacceptably painful economically.

What the heck am I misrepresenting???
I've distinguished between what you said and something much more significant to Vlad, an actual constriction on Russia's economy.

Your last point, though, is interesting and incremental.
Do you think a threat to stop Nord 2 would mean the withdrawal of Russian forces?

How about a threat that if he did invade, Nord 2 would stop?

Bottomline, we want Vlad to back off and find another project with which to distract his populace from their brutally awful COVID response.

You responded to my proposal of delaying the opening of Nord 2 with a warning about a total shutdown, which was not my recommendation.

But I do agree with you that Nord 2 is the very interesting strategic card; unfortunately, it cuts both ways. You don't like prices at the pump now? Watch what happens if there's a shut off of Russian oil and gas..

I certainly understand the pricing interrelationships between various energy sources...hunch would be that I understand better than you, but you do certainly know a heck of a lot more than me on some other topics, so maybe you do...I was speaking more generally about the strategic threat of cutting off oil and gas purchases from Russia, crushing their economy, should this get to that point...but it is indeed a two sided sword, so even threatening that card can spook markets.

Yup and then I clarified multiple times, exactly what I'd meant. But you ignored.

You also felt the need to proclaim your superior subject matter expertise while saying :

"Watch what happens if there's a shut off of Russian oil and gas.."
That's not simply threatening not to open Nord 2, it's a shut off...that's what would really matter to Russia.

Given your superior understanding, is it your contention that a delay would not matter to Russia. That only a total shutdown matters to Russia ?
-- imho, delay opening until certain conditions are met could be a bargaining chip.

[get it to x]

Isn't the one of the main points of Nordstream 2 to bypass transiting Russian gas through Ukraine thus lowering the cost to the Germans and reducing the leverage and revenue to squeeze Ukraine for the Russians?

That's one of the results. It will allow Russia to invade Ukraine without disrupting supply to Germany.

3 more years of Biden admin...OS, do you think Ukraine and Taiwan are already lost?

If so, would you imagine a different outcome with the former POTUS at the helm?

You have officially become a one note samba. Trump is at Mar a Lago. Remind me again, who is in charge? It is a question I dare anybody on this board to answer. My guess is Obama.

[a fan]

Isn't the one of the main points of Nordstream 2 to bypass transiting Russian gas through Ukraine thus lowering the cost to the Germans and reducing the leverage and revenue to squeeze Ukraine for the Russians?

That's one of the results. It will allow Russia to invade Ukraine without disrupting supply to Germany.

3 more years of Biden admin...OS, do you think Ukraine and Taiwan are already lost?

Who knows ? My worst fear is that Russia & China both invade after the olympics,

I'll bite: so why didn't both do just that during eight years of having a soft, weak, inept, arrogant Obama (D) in charge?

[old salt]

Isn't the one of the main points of Nordstream 2 to bypass transiting Russian gas through Ukraine thus lowering the cost to the Germans and reducing the leverage and revenue to squeeze Ukraine for the Russians?

That's one of the results. It will allow Russia to invade Ukraine without disrupting supply to Germany.

3 more years of Biden admin...OS, do you think Ukraine and Taiwan are already lost?

Who knows ? My worst fear is that Russia & China both invade after the olympics,

I'll bite: so why didn't both do just that during eight years of having a soft, weak, inept, arrogant Obama (D) in charge?

Russia did invade Crimea & the Donbass. They were not as well prepared to do so as now. China was not sending signals that invasion was imminent. This is the largest troop deployment ever on Ukraine's border & the most massive probing of Taiwan's defenses by sea & air.

[a fan]

Russia did invade Crimea & the Donbass. They were not as well prepared to do so as now.

So why didn't they "prepare"?

China was not sending signals that invasion was imminent.

So again....why didn't they do just that?

So again....if weak (militarily) US leadership is what Putin and the Chinese are waiting for....why not strike during 8 years of Obama and
the little D by his name?

This is the largest troop deployment ever on Ukraine's border & the most massive probing of Taiwan's defenses by sea & air.

Again...why not do this when Obama was in charge?

Again, this is where he said "the 80's called, they want their foreign policy is back. No US President will risk war over Taiwan, regardless of the stupid letter by their name. Double goes for Ukraine.

What both China and Russia want to avoid are major sanctions and major economic disruptions. They invade Taiwan, for example? First thing Biden will do is cease trade, and boot all those Chinese students out of the US. THAT hurts.

We took down the Soviets, and it had NOTHING to do with firing a shot. Does no one take notes when stuff like this goes down, or something?

[old salt]

Russia did invade Crimea & the Donbass. They were not as well prepared to do so as now.

So why didn't they "prepare"?

China was not sending signals that invasion was imminent.

So again....why didn't they do just that?

So again....if weak (militarily) US leadership is what Putin and the Chinese are waiting for....why not strike during 8 years of Obama and
the little D by his name?

This is the largest troop deployment ever on Ukraine's border & the most massive probing of Taiwan's defenses by sea & air.

Again...why not do this when Obama was in charge?

Again, this is where he said "the 80's called, they want their foreign policy is back. No US President will risk war over Taiwan, regardless of the stupid letter by their name. Double goes for Ukraine.

What both China and Russia want to avoid are major sanctions and major economic disruptions. They invade Taiwan, for example? First thing Biden will do is cease trade, and boot all those Chinese students out of the US. THAT hurts.

We took down the Soviets, and it had NOTHING to do with firing a shot. Does no one take notes when stuff like this goes down, or something?

Good God this is tedious. My hair hurts. Time marches on. Circumstances change.
The US is viewed as a declining power -- do I need to list the reasons ?
What are you worked up about ?

[a fan]

Russia did invade Crimea & the Donbass. They were not as well prepared to do so as now.

So why didn't they "prepare"?

China was not sending signals that invasion was imminent.

So again....why didn't they do just that?

So again....if weak (militarily) US leadership is what Putin and the Chinese are waiting for....why not strike during 8 years of Obama and
the little D by his name?

This is the largest troop deployment ever on Ukraine's border & the most massive probing of Taiwan's defenses by sea & air.

Again...why not do this when Obama was in charge?

Again, this is where he said "the 80's called, they want their foreign policy is back. No US President will risk war over Taiwan, regardless of the stupid letter by their name. Double goes for Ukraine.

What both China and Russia want to avoid are major sanctions and major economic disruptions. They invade Taiwan, for example? First thing Biden will do is cease trade, and boot all those Chinese students out of the US. THAT hurts.

We took down the Soviets, and it had NOTHING to do with firing a shot. Does no one take notes when stuff like this goes down, or something?

Good God this is tedious. My hair hurts. Time marches on. Circumstances change. The US is viewed as a declining power -- do I need to list the reasons ?

What are you worked up about ?

Because those of us who have been on the Forum since Bush have seen this play before: all the Republicans on the board start telling us that every country in the world is about to fall apart because we have a POTUS with a D by his name.

And here we are again....you're claiming that we're a "declining power" when, what, a week ago, Biden signed another Defense Appropriation bill for....almost a Trillion ()*#$-ing dollars.

It's just tiring. If we're going to play this stupid game again, can I at least get my tax dollars back from that Defense bill that you seem to think makes us a declining power? Seems to me that Biden just signaled we're STILL the big swinging you-know-what in the world with that bill.

Nope. He's a Dem. So everything sucks.