Is America a racist nation?

[cradleandshoot]

Gotta love these brainy folks who fight the war with pencil and paper from comfy and cozy environments and with 20-20 hindsight vision.

In the unlikely
event that a subsequent full-scale invasion had been mounted in
1946, the maximum estimate found in such documents was 46,000.
46,000 deaths, though significant, pales in comparison to the estimated 105,000
deaths caused by the two bombings.

Nope, 46K doesn't pale to any number when you're one of the 46K.
Justification for dropping the bombs given the times and state of
the world.

I'm not much for statistics. It may be relevant to look at the price paid for victory at Iwo Jima and Okinawa and extrapolate that cost in human life to invade Japan. Iwo Jima was 2 miles wide and 6 miles long and it took 80 thousand Marines 33 days to secure the island with 8 thousand casualties. Think about that.

We didn't and wouldn't have needed to invade. That's a red herring.

Heck, Salty's been telling us that all it took was for the Soviets to declare war on Japan.

Then why were so many of those combat units in Europe being trained for the expected invasion of Japan? You bring up an interesting hypothetical. The Soviet declaration of war was more symbolic in any relevant time frame. The one thing I know is the Japanese were ready, willing and able to fight to the death. My opinion is irregardless of all the background static being put forth, our leaders made the right call. Trying to second guess that decision 75 years later is a fools errand.

You ever think that maybe you have been indoctrinated? I have to discount anything you, old salt and anyone else with a vested interest in the military has to say. I consider it, but discount it.

How have I been indoctrinated? What makes you think I have a vested interest in the military? Is that sentiment because I served in the military? What I have is an enormous respect for the soldiers I served with. I also have a never ending curiosity and passion for the history of WW2. If your understanding is that I have blind obedience and loyalty to the military you would be wrong. The topic of our discussion is the justification for dropping 2 atomic bombs on Japan. I have enjoyed this discussion very much. It does not matter if I agree or disagree with the opinions posters here have. I'm happy that there are posters here that are passionate and care about the decisions our leaders make.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Gotta love these brainy folks who fight the war with pencil and paper from comfy and cozy environments and with 20-20 hindsight vision.

In the unlikely
event that a subsequent full-scale invasion had been mounted in
1946, the maximum estimate found in such documents was 46,000.
46,000 deaths, though significant, pales in comparison to the estimated 105,000
deaths caused by the two bombings.

Nope, 46K doesn't pale to any number when you're one of the 46K.
Justification for dropping the bombs given the times and state of
the world.

I'm not much for statistics. It may be relevant to look at the price paid for victory at Iwo Jima and Okinawa and extrapolate that cost in human life to invade Japan. Iwo Jima was 2 miles wide and 6 miles long and it took 80 thousand Marines 33 days to secure the island with 8 thousand casualties. Think about that.

We didn't and wouldn't have needed to invade. That's a red herring.

Heck, Salty's been telling us that all it took was for the Soviets to declare war on Japan.

Then why were so many of those combat units in Europe being trained for the expected invasion of Japan? You bring up an interesting hypothetical. The Soviet declaration of war was more symbolic in any relevant time frame. The one thing I know is the Japanese were ready, willing and able to fight to the death. My opinion is irregardless of all the background static being put forth, our leaders made the right call. Trying to second guess that decision 75 years later is a fools errand.

You ever think that maybe you have been indoctrinated? I have to discount anything you, old salt and anyone else with a vested interest in the military has to say. I consider it, but discount it.

How have I been indoctrinated? What makes you think I have a vested interest in the military? Is that sentiment because I served in the military? What I have is an enormous respect for the soldiers I served with. I also have a never ending curiosity and passion for the history of WW2. If your understanding is that I have blind obedience and loyalty to the military you would be wrong. The topic of our discussion is the justification for dropping 2 atomic bombs on Japan. I have enjoyed this discussion very much. It does not matter if I agree or disagree with the opinions posters here have. I'm happy that there are posters here that are passionate and care about the decisions our leaders make.

You weren’t indoctrinated? In many disciplines, potential conflict of interest is a consideration. This is no different for me. Doesn’t mean a person can’t be objective….also doesn’t mean a person can be. Case by case.

[old salt]

and your denials of all racial prejudice continues, regardless of era.

Yes, the Japanese dealt a heck of a blow early on and that had us on our heels, but they did not remotely sustain sea superiority for the course of the war, yet we incarcerated Japanese Americans throughout regardless. Even after the war had ended.

And we had every reason to fear German American and Italian American spies and sabotage as we did from Japanese Americans. Yet, we did not do mass incarceration...again, you simply want to ignore the racist zeitgeist of the time.

Typical from you.
Seriously, I don't understand what you're so afraid of on these topics.

Typical from you. I'm weary of your mangling of history in your sanctimonious, virtue signalling BS.
I'm not afraid of anything. I lived in Japan & served with our Japanese allies. They are more forgiving, & less resentful of US actions, than self-loathing Americans like you. We are fortunate to have them as allies now. If you studied Bushido you'd understand why surrender was not assured.

I did not deny that there was racial animus against the Japanese after Pearl Harbor. I simply do not share your opinion that it was a factor in the decision to use the bomb in hopes of hastening an end to the war.

It is absurd to equate Axis spies & sabotage to the military threat posed by Japan. Until the Battle of Midway, Japanese carrier strike groups roamed the Pacific unmolested, their position often unknown to us. There was no reason to assume that the war in the Pacific would turn in our favor before the Japanese could extend & consolidate their initial gains while we were focused on the war in Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation ... s_at_Night
http://twovoyagers.com/blinkynet.net/ww ... regon.html
http://twovoyagers.com/blinkynet.net/ww ... anal1.html
https://www.mtdemocrat.com/opinion/japa ... est-coast/
...a book entitled “Hawaii Under the Rising Sun, Japan’s Plans for Conquest After Pearl Harbor.” The author, Dr. John J. Stephan, is a noted scholar of Japanese history in the Pacific War — Ikuhiko Hata, foremost military historian in Japan recommends Dr. Stephan’s work without hesitation, as does Akira Iriye, distinguished professor of American Diplomatic History, University of Chicago.

Dr. Stephan’s research revealed that Admiral Tamon Yamaguchi, second in command to Admiral Yamamoto, prepared a plan to take Midway and then Hawaii, with Hawaii to be the base for invasion of our West Coast. Admiral Yamaguchi planned to harass from Anchorage to San Diego with his carriers, and then troop carriers from Hawaii would invade with initial objectives to be seizure of oil fields and aircraft factories in California.

This plan died with Admiral Yamaguchi when he went down with his flag ship during the Battle of Midway. Interesting aside: Even though there was room in the life boats, Admiral Yamaguchi and Capt.Kaku (captain of the sinking aircraft carrier) lashed themselves to the wheel so they could not be rescued by the crew. This is why Japan was such a fearsome enemy — they were Bushido.

With their defeat at Midway losing Admiral Yamaguchi, their carriers, and the cream of their Naval aviators, Japan was forced to turn back from their plans.
In sum, there were plans to invade our West Coast.

Those plans died with Admiral Yamaguchi at Midway, which ranks right up there as one of the most critical victories in our history.

[DMac]

Geezuz, shipmate, I'm sayin' that's one helluva good post.
BZ

[Typical Lax Dad]

and your denials of all racial prejudice continues, regardless of era.

Yes, the Japanese dealt a heck of a blow early on and that had us on our heels, but they did not remotely sustain sea superiority for the course of the war, yet we incarcerated Japanese Americans throughout regardless. Even after the war had ended.

And we had every reason to fear German American and Italian American spies and sabotage as we did from Japanese Americans. Yet, we did not do mass incarceration...again, you simply want to ignore the racist zeitgeist of the time.

Typical from you.
Seriously, I don't understand what you're so afraid of on these topics.

Typical from you. I'm weary of your mangling of history in your sanctimonious, virtue signalling BS.
I'm not afraid of anything. I lived in Japan & served with our Japanese allies. They are more forgiving, & less resentful of US actions, than self-loathing Americans like you. We are fortunate to have them as allies now. If you studied Bushido you'd understand why surrender was not assured.

I did not deny that there was racial animus against the Japanese after Pearl Harbor. I simply do not share your opinion that it was a factor in the decision to use the bomb in hopes of hastening an end to the war.

It is absurd to equate Axis spies & sabotage to the military threat posed by Japan. Until the Battle of Midway, Japanese carrier strike groups roamed the Pacific unmolested, their position often unknown to us. There was no reason to assume that the war in the Pacific would turn in our favor before the Japanese could extend & consolidate their initial gains while we were focused on the war in Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation ... s_at_Night
http://twovoyagers.com/blinkynet.net/ww ... regon.html
http://twovoyagers.com/blinkynet.net/ww ... anal1.html
https://www.mtdemocrat.com/opinion/japa ... est-coast/
...a book entitled “Hawaii Under the Rising Sun, Japan’s Plans for Conquest After Pearl Harbor.” The author, Dr. John J. Stephan, is a noted scholar of Japanese history in the Pacific War — Ikuhiko Hata, foremost military historian in Japan recommends Dr. Stephan’s work without hesitation, as does Akira Iriye, distinguished professor of American Diplomatic History, University of Chicago.

Dr. Stephan’s research revealed that Admiral Tamon Yamaguchi, second in command to Admiral Yamamoto, prepared a plan to take Midway and then Hawaii, with Hawaii to be the base for invasion of our West Coast. Admiral Yamaguchi planned to harass from Anchorage to San Diego with his carriers, and then troop carriers from Hawaii would invade with initial objectives to be seizure of oil fields and aircraft factories in California.

This plan died with Admiral Yamaguchi when he went down with his flag ship during the Battle of Midway. Interesting aside: Even though there was room in the life boats, Admiral Yamaguchi and Capt.Kaku (captain of the sinking aircraft carrier) lashed themselves to the wheel so they could not be rescued by the crew. This is why Japan was such a fearsome enemy — they were Bushido.

With their defeat at Midway losing Admiral Yamaguchi, their carriers, and the cream of their Naval aviators, Japan was forced to turn back from their plans.
In sum, there were plans to invade our West Coast.

Those plans died with Admiral Yamaguchi at Midway, which ranks right up there as one of the most critical victories in our history.

Yawn

[cradleandshoot]

Gotta love these brainy folks who fight the war with pencil and paper from comfy and cozy environments and with 20-20 hindsight vision.

In the unlikely
event that a subsequent full-scale invasion had been mounted in
1946, the maximum estimate found in such documents was 46,000.
46,000 deaths, though significant, pales in comparison to the estimated 105,000
deaths caused by the two bombings.

Nope, 46K doesn't pale to any number when you're one of the 46K.
Justification for dropping the bombs given the times and state of
the world.

I'm not much for statistics. It may be relevant to look at the price paid for victory at Iwo Jima and Okinawa and extrapolate that cost in human life to invade Japan. Iwo Jima was 2 miles wide and 6 miles long and it took 80 thousand Marines 33 days to secure the island with 8 thousand casualties. Think about that.

We didn't and wouldn't have needed to invade. That's a red herring.

Heck, Salty's been telling us that all it took was for the Soviets to declare war on Japan.

Then why were so many of those combat units in Europe being trained for the expected invasion of Japan? You bring up an interesting hypothetical. The Soviet declaration of war was more symbolic in any relevant time frame. The one thing I know is the Japanese were ready, willing and able to fight to the death. My opinion is irregardless of all the background static being put forth, our leaders made the right call. Trying to second guess that decision 75 years later is a fools errand.

You ever think that maybe you have been indoctrinated? I have to discount anything you, old salt and anyone else with a vested interest in the military has to say. I consider it, but discount it.

How have I been indoctrinated? What makes you think I have a vested interest in the military? Is that sentiment because I served in the military? What I have is an enormous respect for the soldiers I served with. I also have a never ending curiosity and passion for the history of WW2. If your understanding is that I have blind obedience and loyalty to the military you would be wrong. The topic of our discussion is the justification for dropping 2 atomic bombs on Japan. I have enjoyed this discussion very much. It does not matter if I agree or disagree with the opinions posters here have. I'm happy that there are posters here that are passionate and care about the decisions our leaders make.

You weren’t indoctrinated? In many disciplines, potential conflict of interest is a consideration. This is no different for me. Doesn’t mean a person can’t be objective….also doesn’t mean a person can be. Case by case.

Sadly to your disappointment I have never been indoctrinated. In your opinion I guess basic training, AIT and jump school probably qualify as indoctrination. That in reality is the process the US military uses to transform civilians into soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines. Talk about yawn, you post a link to a German bomber that was never put into production. The Germans DID want to bomb certain facilities in the US. The Bausch and Lomb facility in Rochester NY was the prime objective. That is where the Norden bombsight was designed and produced. Flying a bomber on a potential 5000 mile round trip made it an impossibility for Germany. Hermann Goering understood that. That is why the Germans concentrated on building tanks and fighter planes. If you had done your homework you would have known that. YAWN...

[Kismet]

and your denials of all racial prejudice continues, regardless of era.

Yes, the Japanese dealt a heck of a blow early on and that had us on our heels, but they did not remotely sustain sea superiority for the course of the war, yet we incarcerated Japanese Americans throughout regardless. Even after the war had ended.

And we had every reason to fear German American and Italian American spies and sabotage as we did from Japanese Americans. Yet, we did not do mass incarceration...again, you simply want to ignore the racist zeitgeist of the time.

Typical from you.
Seriously, I don't understand what you're so afraid of on these topics.

Typical from you. I'm weary of your mangling of history in your sanctimonious, virtue signalling BS.
I'm not afraid of anything. I lived in Japan & served with our Japanese allies. They are more forgiving, & less resentful of US actions, than self-loathing Americans like you. We are fortunate to have them as allies now. If you studied Bushido you'd understand why surrender was not assured.

I did not deny that there was racial animus against the Japanese after Pearl Harbor. I simply do not share your opinion that it was a factor in the decision to use the bomb in hopes of hastening an end to the war.

It is absurd to equate Axis spies & sabotage to the military threat posed by Japan. Until the Battle of Midway, Japanese carrier strike groups roamed the Pacific unmolested, their position often unknown to us. There was no reason to assume that the war in the Pacific would turn in our favor before the Japanese could extend & consolidate their initial gains while we were focused on the war in Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation ... s_at_Night
http://twovoyagers.com/blinkynet.net/ww ... regon.html
http://twovoyagers.com/blinkynet.net/ww ... anal1.html
https://www.mtdemocrat.com/opinion/japa ... est-coast/
...a book entitled “Hawaii Under the Rising Sun, Japan’s Plans for Conquest After Pearl Harbor.” The author, Dr. John J. Stephan, is a noted scholar of Japanese history in the Pacific War — Ikuhiko Hata, foremost military historian in Japan recommends Dr. Stephan’s work without hesitation, as does Akira Iriye, distinguished professor of American Diplomatic History, University of Chicago.

Dr. Stephan’s research revealed that Admiral Tamon Yamaguchi, second in command to Admiral Yamamoto, prepared a plan to take Midway and then Hawaii, with Hawaii to be the base for invasion of our West Coast. Admiral Yamaguchi planned to harass from Anchorage to San Diego with his carriers, and then troop carriers from Hawaii would invade with initial objectives to be seizure of oil fields and aircraft factories in California.

This plan died with Admiral Yamaguchi when he went down with his flag ship during the Battle of Midway. Interesting aside: Even though there was room in the life boats, Admiral Yamaguchi and Capt.Kaku (captain of the sinking aircraft carrier) lashed themselves to the wheel so they could not be rescued by the crew. This is why Japan was such a fearsome enemy — they were Bushido.

With their defeat at Midway losing Admiral Yamaguchi, their carriers, and the cream of their Naval aviators, Japan was forced to turn back from their plans.
In sum, there were plans to invade our West Coast.

Those plans died with Admiral Yamaguchi at Midway, which ranks right up there as one of the most critical victories in our history.

Interesting. I was unaware of this volume. Will have to check it out. It was a widely held belief within IJN that after Pearl Harbor that they had to move quickly to destabilize American power as they knew they could not win a war of attrition over time.

As for Midway, a great victory, for sure but also many myths about the details of how victory was achieved including more than a little luck and
Japanese face-saving after the fact history by Mitsuo Fuchida entitled Midway: The Battle that Doomed Japan, the Japanese Navy's Story (Naval Institute Press, 2000) was coauthored with Masatake Okumiya. His mythology was debunked completely in Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway an excellent 2005 narrative of the battle by Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully that made use of previously undiscovered IJN carrier flight operations action records which indicate that Fuchida (who also was a tactical architect of Pearl Harbor) was quite a fabulist who later claimed to be on the USS Missouri for the surrender on an upper deck with U.S. sailors - something never conformed or validated. Parshall and Tully also dispel some long held myths about the American side. It's a fantastic read but is a comprehensive book at 640 pages include 24 chapters and 11 appendixes, all extensively annotated) in a larger format than most hardcovers.
Read this review - which itemizes so detial from the book on dysfunction within the IJN
https://www.strategypage.com/bookreviews/275.asp

History is often complicated and also one needs to consider sources who often have implicit bias as well as an agenda. Parshall and Tully deconstruct the battle from both sides and come up with more than a few famous myths from both sides that turn out not to be quite true using previously undiscovered sources within both the IJN and USN. Some surprises for sure but no doubt of the bravery of the participants on both sides many of whom did not survive the battle. IJN was swinging for the fences hoping to lure the US Navy out to annihilation but it didn't turn out that way because of some bad luck, overconfidence and a mis-reading of how the USN would fight a naval conflict.

[MDlaxfan76]

Geezuz, shipmate, I'm sayin' that's one helluva good post.
BZ

Except that he also denies that racism was driving the Japanese mass incarceration, just as he has denied racism as a factor defining any other part of American history. Always an excuse. Always with the handwaving.

What's he actually afraid of, DMac?...all he can do in response is claim "virtue signaling" instead of acknowledging that there's a reality in our history that is uncomfortable.

He also ignores that Midway was in 1942, yet mass incarceration continued until 1945, indeed not entirely ended until 6 months after the end of the war...typical from him to ignore the actual discussion.

And he ignores the much greater potential threat from German Americans relative to the Japanese Americans.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Gotta love these brainy folks who fight the war with pencil and paper from comfy and cozy environments and with 20-20 hindsight vision.

In the unlikely
event that a subsequent full-scale invasion had been mounted in
1946, the maximum estimate found in such documents was 46,000.
46,000 deaths, though significant, pales in comparison to the estimated 105,000
deaths caused by the two bombings.

Nope, 46K doesn't pale to any number when you're one of the 46K.
Justification for dropping the bombs given the times and state of
the world.

I'm not much for statistics. It may be relevant to look at the price paid for victory at Iwo Jima and Okinawa and extrapolate that cost in human life to invade Japan. Iwo Jima was 2 miles wide and 6 miles long and it took 80 thousand Marines 33 days to secure the island with 8 thousand casualties. Think about that.

We didn't and wouldn't have needed to invade. That's a red herring.

Heck, Salty's been telling us that all it took was for the Soviets to declare war on Japan.

Then why were so many of those combat units in Europe being trained for the expected invasion of Japan? You bring up an interesting hypothetical. The Soviet declaration of war was more symbolic in any relevant time frame. The one thing I know is the Japanese were ready, willing and able to fight to the death. My opinion is irregardless of all the background static being put forth, our leaders made the right call. Trying to second guess that decision 75 years later is a fools errand.

You ever think that maybe you have been indoctrinated? I have to discount anything you, old salt and anyone else with a vested interest in the military has to say. I consider it, but discount it.

How have I been indoctrinated? What makes you think I have a vested interest in the military? Is that sentiment because I served in the military? What I have is an enormous respect for the soldiers I served with. I also have a never ending curiosity and passion for the history of WW2. If your understanding is that I have blind obedience and loyalty to the military you would be wrong. The topic of our discussion is the justification for dropping 2 atomic bombs on Japan. I have enjoyed this discussion very much. It does not matter if I agree or disagree with the opinions posters here have. I'm happy that there are posters here that are passionate and care about the decisions our leaders make.

You weren’t indoctrinated? In many disciplines, potential conflict of interest is a consideration. This is no different for me. Doesn’t mean a person can’t be objective….also doesn’t mean a person can be. Case by case.

Sadly to your disappointment I have never been indoctrinated. In your opinion I guess basic training, AIT and jump school probably qualify as indoctrination. That in reality is the process the US military uses to transform civilians into soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines. Talk about yawn, you post a link to a German bomber that was never put into production. The Germans DID want to bomb certain facilities in the US. The Bausch and Lomb facility in Rochester NY was the prime objective. That is where the Norden bombsight was designed and produced. Flying a bomber on a potential 5000 mile round trip made it an impossibility for Germany. Hermann Goering understood that. That is why the Germans concentrated on building tanks and fighter planes. If you had done your homework you would have known that. YAWN...

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2006-01725-002

Like I said, you were indoctrinated…..yawn.

[cradleandshoot]

Gotta love these brainy folks who fight the war with pencil and paper from comfy and cozy environments and with 20-20 hindsight vision.

In the unlikely
event that a subsequent full-scale invasion had been mounted in
1946, the maximum estimate found in such documents was 46,000.
46,000 deaths, though significant, pales in comparison to the estimated 105,000
deaths caused by the two bombings.

Nope, 46K doesn't pale to any number when you're one of the 46K.
Justification for dropping the bombs given the times and state of
the world.

I'm not much for statistics. It may be relevant to look at the price paid for victory at Iwo Jima and Okinawa and extrapolate that cost in human life to invade Japan. Iwo Jima was 2 miles wide and 6 miles long and it took 80 thousand Marines 33 days to secure the island with 8 thousand casualties. Think about that.

We didn't and wouldn't have needed to invade. That's a red herring.

Heck, Salty's been telling us that all it took was for the Soviets to declare war on Japan.

Then why were so many of those combat units in Europe being trained for the expected invasion of Japan? You bring up an interesting hypothetical. The Soviet declaration of war was more symbolic in any relevant time frame. The one thing I know is the Japanese were ready, willing and able to fight to the death. My opinion is irregardless of all the background static being put forth, our leaders made the right call. Trying to second guess that decision 75 years later is a fools errand.

You ever think that maybe you have been indoctrinated? I have to discount anything you, old salt and anyone else with a vested interest in the military has to say. I consider it, but discount it.

How have I been indoctrinated? What makes you think I have a vested interest in the military? Is that sentiment because I served in the military? What I have is an enormous respect for the soldiers I served with. I also have a never ending curiosity and passion for the history of WW2. If your understanding is that I have blind obedience and loyalty to the military you would be wrong. The topic of our discussion is the justification for dropping 2 atomic bombs on Japan. I have enjoyed this discussion very much. It does not matter if I agree or disagree with the opinions posters here have. I'm happy that there are posters here that are passionate and care about the decisions our leaders make.

You weren’t indoctrinated? In many disciplines, potential conflict of interest is a consideration. This is no different for me. Doesn’t mean a person can’t be objective….also doesn’t mean a person can be. Case by case.

Sadly to your disappointment I have never been indoctrinated. In your opinion I guess basic training, AIT and jump school probably qualify as indoctrination. That in reality is the process the US military uses to transform civilians into soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines. Talk about yawn, you post a link to a German bomber that was never put into production. The Germans DID want to bomb certain facilities in the US. The Bausch and Lomb facility in Rochester NY was the prime objective. That is where the Norden bombsight was designed and produced. Flying a bomber on a potential 5000 mile round trip made it an impossibility for Germany. Hermann Goering understood that. That is why the Germans concentrated on building tanks and fighter planes. If you had done your homework you would have known that. YAWN...

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2006-01725-002

Like I said, you were indoctrinated…..yawn.

To quote you.. " you sound really stupid" . BTW, how many of those German bombers that never went into production flew across the Atlantic to drop bombs? You should have been more concerned with the U boats off our coast that sunk countless numbers of supply ships heading towards England. You may remember they were the U boat attacks our government hid from the average American citizen. You do know you sound really stupid.

https://www.newenglandhistoricalsociety ... -atlantic/

[Typical Lax Dad]

Gotta love these brainy folks who fight the war with pencil and paper from comfy and cozy environments and with 20-20 hindsight vision.

In the unlikely
event that a subsequent full-scale invasion had been mounted in
1946, the maximum estimate found in such documents was 46,000.
46,000 deaths, though significant, pales in comparison to the estimated 105,000
deaths caused by the two bombings.

Nope, 46K doesn't pale to any number when you're one of the 46K.
Justification for dropping the bombs given the times and state of
the world.

I'm not much for statistics. It may be relevant to look at the price paid for victory at Iwo Jima and Okinawa and extrapolate that cost in human life to invade Japan. Iwo Jima was 2 miles wide and 6 miles long and it took 80 thousand Marines 33 days to secure the island with 8 thousand casualties. Think about that.

We didn't and wouldn't have needed to invade. That's a red herring.

Heck, Salty's been telling us that all it took was for the Soviets to declare war on Japan.

Then why were so many of those combat units in Europe being trained for the expected invasion of Japan? You bring up an interesting hypothetical. The Soviet declaration of war was more symbolic in any relevant time frame. The one thing I know is the Japanese were ready, willing and able to fight to the death. My opinion is irregardless of all the background static being put forth, our leaders made the right call. Trying to second guess that decision 75 years later is a fools errand.

You ever think that maybe you have been indoctrinated? I have to discount anything you, old salt and anyone else with a vested interest in the military has to say. I consider it, but discount it.

How have I been indoctrinated? What makes you think I have a vested interest in the military? Is that sentiment because I served in the military? What I have is an enormous respect for the soldiers I served with. I also have a never ending curiosity and passion for the history of WW2. If your understanding is that I have blind obedience and loyalty to the military you would be wrong. The topic of our discussion is the justification for dropping 2 atomic bombs on Japan. I have enjoyed this discussion very much. It does not matter if I agree or disagree with the opinions posters here have. I'm happy that there are posters here that are passionate and care about the decisions our leaders make.

You weren’t indoctrinated? In many disciplines, potential conflict of interest is a consideration. This is no different for me. Doesn’t mean a person can’t be objective….also doesn’t mean a person can be. Case by case.

Sadly to your disappointment I have never been indoctrinated. In your opinion I guess basic training, AIT and jump school probably qualify as indoctrination. That in reality is the process the US military uses to transform civilians into soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines. Talk about yawn, you post a link to a German bomber that was never put into production. The Germans DID want to bomb certain facilities in the US. The Bausch and Lomb facility in Rochester NY was the prime objective. That is where the Norden bombsight was designed and produced. Flying a bomber on a potential 5000 mile round trip made it an impossibility for Germany. Hermann Goering understood that. That is why the Germans concentrated on building tanks and fighter planes. If you had done your homework you would have known that. YAWN...

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2006-01725-002

Like I said, you were indoctrinated…..yawn.

To quote you.. " you sound really stupid" . BTW, how many of those German bombers that never went into production flew across the Atlantic to drop bombs? You should have been more concerned with the U boats off our coast that sunk countless numbers of supply ships heading towards England. You may remember they were the U boat attacks our government hid from the average American citizen. You do know you sound really stupid.

https://www.newenglandhistoricalsociety ... -atlantic/

My only point was that they wished us harm, Einstein. What the addled brain reads into it, I have not control over. You were indoctrinated. Your perspective may have been warped. Your response indicates the possibility. Why didn’t we lock up them Germans here? If your addled brain believes that I made the post because that bomber was operational makes me think you are stupider than I thought. Follow the thread and what prompted my post. Japan wished us harm. We sent US citizens of Japanese descent to internment camps. Germany wished us harm. We didn’t send US citizens of German descent to internment camps. Pay attention.

[DMac]

Geezuz, shipmate, I'm sayin' that's one helluva good post.
BZ

Except that he also denies that racism was driving the Japanese mass incarceration, just as he has denied racism as a factor defining any other part of American history. Always an excuse. Always with the handwaving.

What's he actually afraid of, DMac?...all he can do in response is claim "virtue signaling" instead of acknowledging that there's a reality in our history that is uncomfortable.

He also ignores that Midway was in 1942, yet mass incarceration continued until 1945, indeed not entirely ended until 6 months after the end of the war...typical from him to ignore the actual discussion.

And he ignores the much greater potential threat from German Americans relative to the Japanese Americans.

I happen to agree with him here, MDlax, in that you are way too hung up on race playing a big part in the decision to drop the bombs. I don't buy that, they were the enemy, race was incidental in that respect. They were vicious fighters who killed a lot of Americans. That was plenty reason enough to justify dropping the bombs, I doubt racism played much of a role in that decision. You can dissect it and twist it this many years later but at the time they were the enemy who attacked us....nuff reason in itself, IMHO.

[Brooklyn]

another innocent black released from prison and from his conviction because he was "lucky":

https://www.syracuse.com/news/2021/11/b ... stice.html

I've read other accounts of this matter and cannot find any proofs that the accuser ever apologized to this innocent black man for the terrible ordeal he suffered. In fact in other cases where a white woman victimizes an innocent black man you just don't see any regrets, any apologies, and when retribution is imposed such as a conviction and imprisonment for false accusation, these women now claim to be victims.

For those who believe that racism in America is strictly imaginary, you have to wonder how many more thousands of innocent black men are languishing in jail or have died waiting for their day of justice. Just imagine.

[cradleandshoot]

Geezuz, shipmate, I'm sayin' that's one helluva good post.
BZ

Except that he also denies that racism was driving the Japanese mass incarceration, just as he has denied racism as a factor defining any other part of American history. Always an excuse. Always with the handwaving.

What's he actually afraid of, DMac?...all he can do in response is claim "virtue signaling" instead of acknowledging that there's a reality in our history that is uncomfortable.

He also ignores that Midway was in 1942, yet mass incarceration continued until 1945, indeed not entirely ended until 6 months after the end of the war...typical from him to ignore the actual discussion.

And he ignores the much greater potential threat from German Americans relative to the Japanese Americans.

To quote Ronald Reagan... "there you go again" My grandfather was 1st generation German immigrant. His biggest danger to the US was drinking them dry of good beer and outplaying all these upstate NYers in their own game of euchre. There of course was a large contingent of German Americans that supported the Nazis. They all vanished like a fart in the wind once Hitler declared war on the US. Many of them actually went back to Germany and joined der Fuehrer in his quest for world domination. You keep comparing oranges to apples. The American people were justifiably angry at Japan. They started a war with us in a most devastating and humiliating fashion. My dad caught considerable flack for being an American soldier that spoke fluent German. I believe "kraut" was the slang term hurled at him by some of his fellow soldiers. My dads ability to communicate with captured German soldiers was much appreciated on the front lines. A pack of Camels and some K rations and some friendly nattering with these POWs was usually all it took to get them talking. You are aware of the Japanese unit that served with incredible valor in France, Belgium and Germany. I guess there was not quite enough prejudice to forgo them the opportunity to go and die for their country. They did die in great numbers on the battlefields of Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Inf ... 20War%20II.

[cradleandshoot]

Gotta love these brainy folks who fight the war with pencil and paper from comfy and cozy environments and with 20-20 hindsight vision.

In the unlikely
event that a subsequent full-scale invasion had been mounted in
1946, the maximum estimate found in such documents was 46,000.
46,000 deaths, though significant, pales in comparison to the estimated 105,000
deaths caused by the two bombings.

Nope, 46K doesn't pale to any number when you're one of the 46K.
Justification for dropping the bombs given the times and state of
the world.

I'm not much for statistics. It may be relevant to look at the price paid for victory at Iwo Jima and Okinawa and extrapolate that cost in human life to invade Japan. Iwo Jima was 2 miles wide and 6 miles long and it took 80 thousand Marines 33 days to secure the island with 8 thousand casualties. Think about that.

We didn't and wouldn't have needed to invade. That's a red herring.

Heck, Salty's been telling us that all it took was for the Soviets to declare war on Japan.

Then why were so many of those combat units in Europe being trained for the expected invasion of Japan? You bring up an interesting hypothetical. The Soviet declaration of war was more symbolic in any relevant time frame. The one thing I know is the Japanese were ready, willing and able to fight to the death. My opinion is irregardless of all the background static being put forth, our leaders made the right call. Trying to second guess that decision 75 years later is a fools errand.

You ever think that maybe you have been indoctrinated? I have to discount anything you, old salt and anyone else with a vested interest in the military has to say. I consider it, but discount it.

How have I been indoctrinated? What makes you think I have a vested interest in the military? Is that sentiment because I served in the military? What I have is an enormous respect for the soldiers I served with. I also have a never ending curiosity and passion for the history of WW2. If your understanding is that I have blind obedience and loyalty to the military you would be wrong. The topic of our discussion is the justification for dropping 2 atomic bombs on Japan. I have enjoyed this discussion very much. It does not matter if I agree or disagree with the opinions posters here have. I'm happy that there are posters here that are passionate and care about the decisions our leaders make.

You weren’t indoctrinated? In many disciplines, potential conflict of interest is a consideration. This is no different for me. Doesn’t mean a person can’t be objective….also doesn’t mean a person can be. Case by case.

Sadly to your disappointment I have never been indoctrinated. In your opinion I guess basic training, AIT and jump school probably qualify as indoctrination. That in reality is the process the US military uses to transform civilians into soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines. Talk about yawn, you post a link to a German bomber that was never put into production. The Germans DID want to bomb certain facilities in the US. The Bausch and Lomb facility in Rochester NY was the prime objective. That is where the Norden bombsight was designed and produced. Flying a bomber on a potential 5000 mile round trip made it an impossibility for Germany. Hermann Goering understood that. That is why the Germans concentrated on building tanks and fighter planes. If you had done your homework you would have known that. YAWN...

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2006-01725-002

Like I said, you were indoctrinated…..yawn.

To quote you.. " you sound really stupid" . BTW, how many of those German bombers that never went into production flew across the Atlantic to drop bombs? You should have been more concerned with the U boats off our coast that sunk countless numbers of supply ships heading towards England. You may remember they were the U boat attacks our government hid from the average American citizen. You do know you sound really stupid.

https://www.newenglandhistoricalsociety ... -atlantic/

My only point was that they wished us harm, Einstein. What the addled brain reads into it, I have not control over. You were indoctrinated. Your perspective may have been warped. Your response indicates the possibility. Why didn’t we lock up them Germans here? If your addled brain believes that I made the post because that bomber was operational makes me think you are stupider than I thought. Follow the thread and what prompted my post. Japan wished us harm. We sent US citizens of Japanese descent to internment camps. Germany wished us harm. We didn’t send US citizens of German descent to internment camps. Pay attention.

Seriously, you really do sound stupid. That is just my opinion, have a great day and maybe read up a little bit about the history of WW2. It is no fun on my part having a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

[Farfromgeneva]

Gotta love these brainy folks who fight the war with pencil and paper from comfy and cozy environments and with 20-20 hindsight vision.

In the unlikely
event that a subsequent full-scale invasion had been mounted in
1946, the maximum estimate found in such documents was 46,000.
46,000 deaths, though significant, pales in comparison to the estimated 105,000
deaths caused by the two bombings.

Nope, 46K doesn't pale to any number when you're one of the 46K.
Justification for dropping the bombs given the times and state of
the world.

I'm not much for statistics. It may be relevant to look at the price paid for victory at Iwo Jima and Okinawa and extrapolate that cost in human life to invade Japan. Iwo Jima was 2 miles wide and 6 miles long and it took 80 thousand Marines 33 days to secure the island with 8 thousand casualties. Think about that.

We didn't and wouldn't have needed to invade. That's a red herring.

Heck, Salty's been telling us that all it took was for the Soviets to declare war on Japan.

Then why were so many of those combat units in Europe being trained for the expected invasion of Japan? You bring up an interesting hypothetical. The Soviet declaration of war was more symbolic in any relevant time frame. The one thing I know is the Japanese were ready, willing and able to fight to the death. My opinion is irregardless of all the background static being put forth, our leaders made the right call. Trying to second guess that decision 75 years later is a fools errand.

You ever think that maybe you have been indoctrinated? I have to discount anything you, old salt and anyone else with a vested interest in the military has to say. I consider it, but discount it.

How have I been indoctrinated? What makes you think I have a vested interest in the military? Is that sentiment because I served in the military? What I have is an enormous respect for the soldiers I served with. I also have a never ending curiosity and passion for the history of WW2. If your understanding is that I have blind obedience and loyalty to the military you would be wrong. The topic of our discussion is the justification for dropping 2 atomic bombs on Japan. I have enjoyed this discussion very much. It does not matter if I agree or disagree with the opinions posters here have. I'm happy that there are posters here that are passionate and care about the decisions our leaders make.

You weren’t indoctrinated? In many disciplines, potential conflict of interest is a consideration. This is no different for me. Doesn’t mean a person can’t be objective….also doesn’t mean a person can be. Case by case.

Sadly to your disappointment I have never been indoctrinated. In your opinion I guess basic training, AIT and jump school probably qualify as indoctrination. That in reality is the process the US military uses to transform civilians into soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines. Talk about yawn, you post a link to a German bomber that was never put into production. The Germans DID want to bomb certain facilities in the US. The Bausch and Lomb facility in Rochester NY was the prime objective. That is where the Norden bombsight was designed and produced. Flying a bomber on a potential 5000 mile round trip made it an impossibility for Germany. Hermann Goering understood that. That is why the Germans concentrated on building tanks and fighter planes. If you had done your homework you would have known that. YAWN...

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2006-01725-002

Like I said, you were indoctrinated…..yawn.

To quote you.. " you sound really stupid" . BTW, how many of those German bombers that never went into production flew across the Atlantic to drop bombs? You should have been more concerned with the U boats off our coast that sunk countless numbers of supply ships heading towards England. You may remember they were the U boat attacks our government hid from the average American citizen. You do know you sound really stupid.

https://www.newenglandhistoricalsociety ... -atlantic/

My only point was that they wished us harm, Einstein. What the addled brain reads into it, I have not control over. You were indoctrinated. Your perspective may have been warped. Your response indicates the possibility. Why didn’t we lock up them Germans here? If your addled brain believes that I made the post because that bomber was operational makes me think you are stupider than I thought. Follow the thread and what prompted my post. Japan wished us harm. We sent US citizens of Japanese descent to internment camps. Germany wished us harm. We didn’t send US citizens of German descent to internment camps. Pay attention.

Seriously, you really do sound stupid. That is just my opinion, have a great day and maybe read up a little bit about the history of WW2. It is no fun on my part having a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

I thought reading is bad.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Gotta love these brainy folks who fight the war with pencil and paper from comfy and cozy environments and with 20-20 hindsight vision.

In the unlikely
event that a subsequent full-scale invasion had been mounted in
1946, the maximum estimate found in such documents was 46,000.
46,000 deaths, though significant, pales in comparison to the estimated 105,000
deaths caused by the two bombings.

Nope, 46K doesn't pale to any number when you're one of the 46K.
Justification for dropping the bombs given the times and state of
the world.

I'm not much for statistics. It may be relevant to look at the price paid for victory at Iwo Jima and Okinawa and extrapolate that cost in human life to invade Japan. Iwo Jima was 2 miles wide and 6 miles long and it took 80 thousand Marines 33 days to secure the island with 8 thousand casualties. Think about that.

We didn't and wouldn't have needed to invade. That's a red herring.

Heck, Salty's been telling us that all it took was for the Soviets to declare war on Japan.

Then why were so many of those combat units in Europe being trained for the expected invasion of Japan? You bring up an interesting hypothetical. The Soviet declaration of war was more symbolic in any relevant time frame. The one thing I know is the Japanese were ready, willing and able to fight to the death. My opinion is irregardless of all the background static being put forth, our leaders made the right call. Trying to second guess that decision 75 years later is a fools errand.

You ever think that maybe you have been indoctrinated? I have to discount anything you, old salt and anyone else with a vested interest in the military has to say. I consider it, but discount it.

How have I been indoctrinated? What makes you think I have a vested interest in the military? Is that sentiment because I served in the military? What I have is an enormous respect for the soldiers I served with. I also have a never ending curiosity and passion for the history of WW2. If your understanding is that I have blind obedience and loyalty to the military you would be wrong. The topic of our discussion is the justification for dropping 2 atomic bombs on Japan. I have enjoyed this discussion very much. It does not matter if I agree or disagree with the opinions posters here have. I'm happy that there are posters here that are passionate and care about the decisions our leaders make.

You weren’t indoctrinated? In many disciplines, potential conflict of interest is a consideration. This is no different for me. Doesn’t mean a person can’t be objective….also doesn’t mean a person can be. Case by case.

Sadly to your disappointment I have never been indoctrinated. In your opinion I guess basic training, AIT and jump school probably qualify as indoctrination. That in reality is the process the US military uses to transform civilians into soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines. Talk about yawn, you post a link to a German bomber that was never put into production. The Germans DID want to bomb certain facilities in the US. The Bausch and Lomb facility in Rochester NY was the prime objective. That is where the Norden bombsight was designed and produced. Flying a bomber on a potential 5000 mile round trip made it an impossibility for Germany. Hermann Goering understood that. That is why the Germans concentrated on building tanks and fighter planes. If you had done your homework you would have known that. YAWN...

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2006-01725-002

Like I said, you were indoctrinated…..yawn.

To quote you.. " you sound really stupid" . BTW, how many of those German bombers that never went into production flew across the Atlantic to drop bombs? You should have been more concerned with the U boats off our coast that sunk countless numbers of supply ships heading towards England. You may remember they were the U boat attacks our government hid from the average American citizen. You do know you sound really stupid.

https://www.newenglandhistoricalsociety ... -atlantic/

My only point was that they wished us harm, Einstein. What the addled brain reads into it, I have not control over. You were indoctrinated. Your perspective may have been warped. Your response indicates the possibility. Why didn’t we lock up them Germans here? If your addled brain believes that I made the post because that bomber was operational makes me think you are stupider than I thought. Follow the thread and what prompted my post. Japan wished us harm. We sent US citizens of Japanese descent to internment camps. Germany wished us harm. We didn’t send US citizens of German descent to internment camps. Pay attention.

Seriously, you really do sound stupid. That is just my opinion, have a great day and maybe read up a little bit about the history of WW2. It is no fun on my part having a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

enjoy the Bills.

[cradleandshoot]

FTR there has been much criticism of decisions made 80 years ago by the leaders of this nation. They made mistakes but they didn't have the wisdom some people here have today. They made the decisions they thought were correct at the time. FDR was not some crazy right wing maniac. I do remember the Japanese had impeccable intelligence about where each and every navy ship was docked at Pearl Harbor. That intell came from the spies the Japanese had all through Hawaii. The leadership of our country was paranoid and shaken with zero knowledge of how many spooks the Japanese may have had on the west coast. They took the most dramatic action possible. They treated all Japanese citizens as a potential threat. That call was made by FDR and the intell his people were giving him at the time. Hindsight will always be 2020.

[Typical Lax Dad]

FTR there has been much criticism of decisions made 80 years ago by the leaders of this nation. They made mistakes but they didn't have the wisdom some people here have today. They made the decisions they thought were correct at the time. FDR was not some crazy right wing maniac. I do remember the Japanese had impeccable intelligence about where each and every navy ship was docked at Pearl Harbor. That intell came from the spies the Japanese had all through Hawaii. The leadership of our country was paranoid and shaken with zero knowledge of how many spooks the Japanese may have had on the west coast. They took the most dramatic action possible. They treated all Japanese citizens as a potential threat. That call was made by FDR and the intell his people were giving him at the time. Hindsight will always be 2020.

One man’s question is another man’s criticism.

[Typical Lax Dad]

FTR there has been much criticism of decisions made 80 years ago by the leaders of this nation. They made mistakes but they didn't have the wisdom some people here have today. They made the decisions they thought were correct at the time. FDR was not some crazy right wing maniac. I do remember the Japanese had impeccable intelligence about where each and every navy ship was docked at Pearl Harbor. That intell came from the spies the Japanese had all through Hawaii. The leadership of our country was paranoid and shaken with zero knowledge of how many spooks the Japanese may have had on the west coast. They took the most dramatic action possible. They treated all Japanese citizens as a potential threat. That call was made by FDR and the intell his people were giving him at the time. Hindsight will always be 2020.

https://www.history.com/.amp/this-day-i ... washington

We didn’t do the lock em up thing.

László Almásy
Elyesa Bazna
Otto von Bolschwing
Willem Ter Braak
Ernest Peter Burger
Wilhelm Canaris
Mathilde Carré
Coco Chanel
Eddie Chapman
Harold Cole
William Colepaugh
George John Dasch
Fritz Joubert Duquesne
Dick Ellis
Johannes Eppler
Arthur Fonjallaz
Gastão de Freitas Ferraz
Reinhard Gehlen
Erich Gimpel
Hermann Giskes
Hermann Görtz
Herbert Hans Haupt
Stephanie von Hohenlohe
Kurt Jahnke
Josef Jakobs
Werner von Janowski
Johnny Jebsen
Tyler Kent
Edward Kerling
Simon Emil Koedel
Kuehn Family
Karl-Erich Kühlenthal
Marina Lee
Erika Lehmann
Christiaan Lindemans
Kurt Frederick Ludwig
Karl Heinrich Meier
Horst von Pflugk-Harttung
Augustin Přeučil
Paul Reckzeh
Karel Richard Richter
Savitri Devi
Walter Schellenberg
Duncan Scott-Ford
Günther Schütz
William G. Sebold
Nathalie Sergueiew
Edgar von Spiegel von und zu Peckelsheim
Alphons Timmerman
Anastasy Vonsyatsky
Jose Waldberg
Anna Wolkoff
Hans-Heinrich Worgitzky