old salt wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:29 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:16 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:00 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:42 pm
I'm no scholar on this topic, but I don't recall reading of a pre-war movement of Japanese sympathizers. On the other hand, a whole lot of Nazi sympathizers, quite prominently so.
And yet, we interned the Japanese Americans...yes, we moved some Germans and a few Italians back from east coast, but no internment.
The decisions on if & how to do the internment was based on the relative potential threats posed & the number of potential internees.
In the wake of Pearl Harbor, there was a real fear of an attack on the US W coast by the Japanese. They did attack in the Aleutians, where they occupied Attu & Kiska islands which were potential air bases from which to attack our W coast.
There was no realistic threat of such an attack on the US E coast by the Germans &/or Italians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Ellwood
ok, obviously, I mean obviously, the Germans couldn't hit us...they only had u-boats off our shores multiple times.
Off Delaware, off North Carolina, Caribbean etc.
What a bunch of baloney.
The explanation that is usually given is that the German and Italian populations were 'too large' to round up and that it would be 'too disruptive' economically.
Again, a bunch of baloney.
The fact is that there were lots of Nazi sympathizers, beyond German or Italian descent, and there was simply not the same racial identity available to discern who was who.
Everything to you is ONLY about race. There was a real fear of a Japanese attack on our W coast. As demonstrated by the public reaction to the sub shelling I linked.
How did Japan attack Pearl Harbor ? (hint : submarines were not decisive)
How did German u-boats " hit us " ? They disrupted shipping. They were not a threat to the mainland. A few spies were captured after they came ashore. How was Germany going to attack the US mainland ?
We scrambled to take back Attu & Kiska as fast as possible before Japan could build air bases from which to bomb our Pacific NW.
Japan's navy gave them the reach to conquer the entire W Pac & reach as far as HI & AK to attack US territory. Germany did not have that capability.
THAT is why there was a panic after Pearl Harbor. It wasn't because of u-boats off the E coast.
I could say 100 times the exact opposite, and you would nevertheless think I "ONLY" consider race. Which is total BS and you actually know it.
I'm merely saying that it was a factor, an important factor, and potentially a decisive factor in some instances. Particularly the second bomb and certainly the internment.
But far from the "only" factor, indeed IMO it's fair to say that concern for American lives, "fear", anger, revenge were all critical factors as well.
But when you say "fear", I think you're ignoring that much of that "fear" was specifically constituted in racial stereotyping. A fear Americans did not have in remotely the same way about German or Italian ancestry or country of origin.
No, the differential was not rationally based. There's no doubt that the Germans were every bit as capable of an aggression via sea, and certainly the possibility of spies and sabotage of ports and rail etc were just as real, indeed arguably much more so, from German and Italian Americans. Indeed, Germans and Italians would have a much easier time of being nondescript in a sea of white Americans than would Japanese.
And yet, we made a very different call. And yes, that was about race. And "fear".
Indeed, the contemporaneous writings at the time made eminently clear the deep racial prejudices motivating those in charge as well as the American public. I suggest you do some homework on those writings; see LG Dewitt's, Western Defense Command in charge of the internment, testimony to Congress: "
I don't want any of them [persons of Japanese ancestry] here. They are a dangerous element. There is no way to determine their loyalty... It makes no difference whether he is an American citizen, he is still a Japanese. American citizenship does not necessarily determine loyalty... But we must worry about the Japanese all the time until he is wiped off the map" and in many interviews:
"A Jap's a Jap".
While most of the camps were closed in 1945 (long, long after the Japanese fleet had been decimated), the last of the camps was not closed until March 1946, a full 6 months after Japan's surrender.
And just as all sorts of other racially based "fears" have been used to justify all sorts of other actions throughout American history, this was as well.
I think what is consistent in our dialogue Salty is not that I think "ONLY about race", but rather that you are so adamantly in denial, on pretty much every example of where racial prejudices have been influential in our American history. Always an excuse.
What are you so afraid of?