All things CoronaVirus

The odds are excellent that you will leave this forum hating someone.

How many of your friends and family members have died of the Chinese Corona Virus?

0 people
44
64%
1 person.
10
14%
2 people.
3
4%
3 people.
5
7%
More.
7
10%
 
Total votes: 69

SCLaxAttack
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Re: All things CoronaVirus

Post by SCLaxAttack »

Peter Brown wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:53 am
ggait wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:32 pm
Colorado guy says what?!?
Colorado guy says our governor is way better than your governor.

2,833 Covid deaths per million in FL (#8). 1,568 in CO (#43).

The main mistake our Gov made over the summer was being too nice to the mouth breathers. He now realizes that you just can't let those selfish losers ruin things for the normal people.

We're only at 70% vax rate, which is just not high enough. So Polis has recently reversed his error, so things will improve here soon.

Want to go to an Avs or Nuggets game? Now you don't get in without a vaccine. Don't like it? Go get your shot. Or just go home and stay home. The rest of us normal people will carry on with our lives. We won't miss you and we're glad you won't be dragging us down any more.



It’s wild to see liberals go full fascist in less than two years. You vill be vaccinated, or else! :lol:

(Also, please tell your governor to pay taxes. I know he belches out the standard ‘the rich don’t pay enough in taxes’ line, but if you’re gonna say it, maybe it helps to actually pay taxes as you demand others do? Call me naive…

How’s the First Husband thing working out for Colorado? Marlon is an interesting character. :lol: )
Curse those from the past who came up with vaccines to virtually eradicate smallpox, polio, measles, etc., and especially those who forced and continue to force those vaccines on us. For decades we thought that was good public health policy. Now we’re enlightened and know it’s been fascism all along. JeezusH.

And since no post should be wasted, a troll’s jab to remind us of his homophobia.

Go away. Just. Go. Away.
ggait
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Re: All things CoronaVirus

Post by ggait »

Line from Colbert's monologue last night:

"Here in New York City, health providers have been told to give booster shots to all adults who want them.

Any chance we can expand that to adults who DON'T want them? Because they're the problem...."
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
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Brooklyn
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Re: All things CoronaVirus

Post by Brooklyn »

Peter Brown wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:53 am It’s wild to see liberals go full fascist in less than two years. You vill be vaccinated, or else! :lol:

Funny how right wingers consider mask and vax mandates to be "full fascism". But invading foreign countries, killing one million innocent civilians, imposing puppet government fascists, and stealing $3 trillion from our Treasury is said to be a moral and Christian "crusade". :lol:
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
Peter Brown
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Re: All things CoronaVirus

Post by Peter Brown »

Brooklyn wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:23 am
Peter Brown wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:53 am It’s wild to see liberals go full fascist in less than two years. You vill be vaccinated, or else! :lol:

Funny how right wingers consider mask and vax mandates to be "full fascism". But invading foreign countries, killing one million innocent civilians, imposing puppet government fascists, and stealing $3 trillion from our Treasury is said to be a moral and Christian "crusade". :lol:



It’s almost like we haven’t had 17 years of a Democrat as POTUS in the last 28 years…
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Brooklyn
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Re: All things CoronaVirus

Post by Brooklyn »

Peter Brown wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:29 am It’s almost like we haven’t had 17 years of a Democrat as POTUS in the last 28 years…

But it was your Repukiecon heroes who started the wars and who refused to end tax shelters while clinging on to their trickle down theory nonsense which hasn't worked in 40 years. :lol:
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
Peter Brown
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Re: All things CoronaVirus

Post by Peter Brown »

Brooklyn wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:00 am
Peter Brown wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:29 am It’s almost like we haven’t had 17 years of a Democrat as POTUS in the last 28 years…

But it was your Repukiecon heroes who started the wars and who refused to end tax shelters while clinging on to their trickle down theory nonsense which hasn't worked in 40 years. :lol:



“The 542 drone strikes that Obama authorized killed an estimated 3,797 people, including 324 civilians. As he reportedly told senior aides in 2011: “Turns out I’m really good at killing people. Didn’t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.”

https://www.cfr.org/blog/obamas-final-drone-strike-data
ggait
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Re: All things CoronaVirus

Post by ggait »

All those masks, all those mandates, for this? Man, you could live in Florida where we never stymied the private sector, never issued mask mandates, never issued vax mandates, and our governor promotes freedom!!!
As if facts matter to the gator troll.

But FWIW, CO has not had any state level mask mandate since the summer. Polis, of course, allows localities and private businesses, to make their own calls on masks. Polis had two reasons for not going full mask.

First, he felt it was unfair to make vaxed people wear masks. Since they are not the problem. Totally true and fair.

Second, he noted that if MBs are refusing to take the shots, they are also pretty unlikely to wear masks either. MBs are just gonna mouth breathe, no matter what the impact is on others.

But with the weather now getting colder, we all (vaxed or not) are going to have to start masking up again. We all get screwed because the selfish stupid MBs gotta be selfish and stupid.

And when the MBs get sick, they all of a sudden get religion over how great hospitals, big pharma, EAU treatments, docs and tech are. And when they all pile into the hospitals begging the hated liberal elite establishment to save their lives, they push out normal folks who need cancer surgery.

Also, the non-MB parts of our state are doing fine. Boulder County is 80+% vaxed -- no problems. Unless/until the MBs from nearby low vax counties started kicking down the doors of our ERs and hogging up all of our commie lib hospital beds.

They are just deplorable.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
Peter Brown
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Re: All things CoronaVirus

Post by Peter Brown »

Gait sees his fellow citizens as mouth breathers. All those auto mechanics, snowcat operators, truck drivers, aeronautical engineers, airplane pilots, warehouse workers….you know, the guys who actually make a country work.

But now comes Michigan, yet another supposedly blue state, but I guess when Covid rears its head, now we say it ain’t blue. :lol:

Seems like the Michigan governor has gone underground like that effete wimp Newsom in California. She won’t issue any mandates like before, and libs are angry! Plus the states Covid cases are now out of control.

Wondering what she’s worried about? In 355 days, there’s an election in Michigan, and it turns out that libs pay attention to what happens in Virginia and New Jersey. :lol:

“Michigan again leads the country in new COVID-19 cases per population over the last seven days, according to tracking data Tuesday from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The state has reported a seven-day new case rate of 504 per 100,000 residents, the highest number nationally, the CDC found. Minnesota followed in second at 490. The figures are another setback in the state’s 20-month fight against the virus and came amid spikes in new infections that are testing the capacity of Michigan’s hospitals.”

https://redstate.com/tladuke/2021/11/18 ... ng-n477878

Man to be a Democrat is simply to be a clown.
ggait
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Re: All things CoronaVirus

Post by ggait »

But now comes Michigan, yet another supposedly blue state, but I guess when Covid rears its head, now we say it ain’t blue.
Who has more Covid deaths per million? FL or Mich?

But Mich (like all northern states) will start to light up as the weather turns cold. And the root cause for that?

Mouth breathers selfishly and stupidly refusing the shot. Mich, a purple swing state, has a lot of mouth breathers

Only 60% with one shot, 54% fully vaccinated. The state would be over run with measles and polio if vax rates were at that level. Duh.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
Bart
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Re: All things Chinese CoronaVirus

Post by Bart »

kramerica.inc wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:02 am
Bart wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:43 pm
kramerica.inc wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:57 pm They already put all their eggs in the Pfizer basket, but they need to push the Moderna.
Better staying power.
Huh?
What are you getting at here?
The .gov is pushing pfizer because of the approval.
But it appears the Moderna is better when it comes to actual effectiveness and long-lasting staying power.
There is an efficacy gap.
Research published on Friday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that the efficacy of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine against hospitalization fell from 91% to 77% after a four-month period following the second shot. The Moderna vaccine showed no decline over the same period
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-wor ... -the-edge/
Thought that was what you were getting at here. Thanks.
There is a small gap in efficacy. With the confidence intervals of the Moderna (91-95) and the CI of Pfizer (85-91), with a p of .01. Some of this was perhaps due to the 2x more data points in the Pfizer than Moderna but with out the actual numbers it is hard to tell how much doubling the Moderna sample would widen the CI.

It really is an interesting question considering both formats use basically the same thing. It could all come down to the narrative that "more is better". Since the original Moderna dose was 100 micrograms of mRNA and Pfizer was 30 micograms of mRNA. So after two doses Moderna has 140 micrograms more mRNA. Then there is the difference between first and second dose.............Is that week longer interim that much important for the Moderna effectiveness? Moving forward it will be interesting to see how things go.......Moderna is going to boost with only 50 micrograms of mRNA while Pfizer give you 30.....still less than the Moderna. Interesingly there is very little difference in ab increases in titer boosting either the Moderna or Pfizer (Althought the moderna in this paper is boosted at 100 micrograms and not the 50 they are actually giving) https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 21264827v1

IMO, we are very lucky to have what we have. Very effective vaccines that help prevent death and disease. Under normal circumstances many of these questions (optimum dose, optimum time frame) would be more fleshed out but this is the szchit show of 2020-2021 and we have what we have.
Bart
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Re: All things CoronaVirus

Post by Bart »

ggait wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:14 pm
But now comes Michigan, yet another supposedly blue state, but I guess when Covid rears its head, now we say it ain’t blue.
Who has more Covid deaths per million? FL or Mich?

But Mich (like all northern states) will start to light up as the weather turns cold. And the root cause for that?

Mouth breathers selfishly and stupidly refusing the shot. Mich, a purple swing state, has a lot of mouth breathers

Only 60% with one shot, 54% fully vaccinated. The state would be over run with measles and polio if vax rates were at that level. Duh.
Nothing like trying to convince people to do something by calling them names. Works all the time.

We better hope that all these mouth breathers who drive trucks for 100 employee firms get shots real quick................................. You think there are supply chain issues right now, wait til January.
Bart
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Re: All things CoronaVirus

Post by Bart »

Bart wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:53 pm
ggait wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:14 pm
But now comes Michigan, yet another supposedly blue state, but I guess when Covid rears its head, now we say it ain’t blue.
Who has more Covid deaths per million? FL or Mich?

But Mich (like all northern states) will start to light up as the weather turns cold. And the root cause for that?

Mouth breathers selfishly and stupidly refusing the shot. Mich, a purple swing state, has a lot of mouth breathers

Only 60% with one shot, 54% fully vaccinated. The state would be over run with measles and polio if vax rates were at that level. Duh.
Nothing like trying to convince people to do something by calling them names. Works all the time.

We better hope that all these mouth breathers who drive trucks for 100 employee firms get shots real quick................................. You think there are supply chain issues right now, wait til January.
It appears that I was wrong about truckers........I had a conversation with a friend who works in the industry prior to this coming out.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/05/labor-s ... -win-.html
https://www.trucking.org/news-insights/ ... ne-mandate

Which makes total sense. Truckers do not stop from place to place and enter rest stops from state to state. They can not spread the virus from location to location. :roll: :roll:
Just another instance of the, imo, crappy and inconsistent messaging/rules that have been in force since this entire thing began.
kramerica.inc
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Re: All things Chinese CoronaVirus

Post by kramerica.inc »

Bart wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:50 pm
kramerica.inc wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:02 am
Bart wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:43 pm
kramerica.inc wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:57 pm They already put all their eggs in the Pfizer basket, but they need to push the Moderna.
Better staying power.
Huh?
What are you getting at here?
The .gov is pushing pfizer because of the approval.
But it appears the Moderna is better when it comes to actual effectiveness and long-lasting staying power.
There is an efficacy gap.
Research published on Friday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that the efficacy of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine against hospitalization fell from 91% to 77% after a four-month period following the second shot. The Moderna vaccine showed no decline over the same period
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-wor ... -the-edge/
Thought that was what you were getting at here. Thanks.
There is a small gap in efficacy. With the confidence intervals of the Moderna (91-95) and the CI of Pfizer (85-91), with a p of .01. Some of this was perhaps due to the 2x more data points in the Pfizer than Moderna but with out the actual numbers it is hard to tell how much doubling the Moderna sample would widen the CI.

It really is an interesting question considering both formats use basically the same thing. It could all come down to the narrative that "more is better". Since the original Moderna dose was 100 micrograms of mRNA and Pfizer was 30 micograms of mRNA. So after two doses Moderna has 140 micrograms more mRNA. Then there is the difference between first and second dose.............Is that week longer interim that much important for the Moderna effectiveness? Moving forward it will be interesting to see how things go.......Moderna is going to boost with only 50 micrograms of mRNA while Pfizer give you 30.....still less than the Moderna. Interesingly there is very little difference in ab increases in titer boosting either the Moderna or Pfizer (Althought the moderna in this paper is boosted at 100 micrograms and not the 50 they are actually giving) https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 21264827v1

IMO, we are very lucky to have what we have. Very effective vaccines that help prevent death and disease. Under normal circumstances many of these questions (optimum dose, optimum time frame) would be more fleshed out but this is the szchit show of 2020-2021 and we have what we have.
This is another reason why some of my employees are hesitant to comply with the vaccine mandate. They postulate the next step is mandated boosters. And until there is any hard info on the proper time/dose to boost, you will have many people deferring the original mandate under religious exemptions.
wgdsr
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Re: All things CoronaVirus

Post by wgdsr »

Bart wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:04 pm
Bart wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:53 pm
ggait wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:14 pm
But now comes Michigan, yet another supposedly blue state, but I guess when Covid rears its head, now we say it ain’t blue.
Who has more Covid deaths per million? FL or Mich?

But Mich (like all northern states) will start to light up as the weather turns cold. And the root cause for that?

Mouth breathers selfishly and stupidly refusing the shot. Mich, a purple swing state, has a lot of mouth breathers

Only 60% with one shot, 54% fully vaccinated. The state would be over run with measles and polio if vax rates were at that level. Duh.
Nothing like trying to convince people to do something by calling them names. Works all the time.

We better hope that all these mouth breathers who drive trucks for 100 employee firms get shots real quick................................. You think there are supply chain issues right now, wait til January.
It appears that I was wrong about truckers........I had a conversation with a friend who works in the industry prior to this coming out.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/05/labor-s ... -win-.html
https://www.trucking.org/news-insights/ ... ne-mandate

Which makes total sense. Truckers do not stop from place to place and enter rest stops from state to state. They can not spread the virus from location to location. :roll: :roll:
Just another instance of the, imo, crappy and inconsistent messaging/rules that have been in force since this entire thing began.
is hitchhiking no longer a thing? makes some movies much less scary.
kramerica.inc
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Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:01 pm

Re: All things Chinese CoronaVirus

Post by kramerica.inc »

Poll numbers released:

https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3827
On four separate issues, Biden receives his lowest grades so far on each of them. Americans were asked about his handling of...

the response to the coronavirus: 45 percent approve, while 50 percent disapprove;
climate change: 41 percent approve, while 48 percent disapprove;
the economy: 34 percent approve, while 59 percent disapprove;
foreign policy: 33 percent approve, while 55 percent disapprove.
...

A slight majority (52 - 46 percent) disapproves of the federal government's mandate that businesses with 100 or more employees require their employees to be fully vaccinated against COVID-19 or to get tested on a weekly basis if they are not fully vaccinated.

A majority (57 percent) say employees that are not fully vaccinated against COVID-19 and work on-site or in person with others should be required to wear masks at work while 40 percent say they should not be required to wear masks.

When it comes to how Americans view the issue of getting a COVID-19 vaccine, 49 percent say it is an issue primarily about public health, while 44 percent say it is an issue primarily about personal freedom.

More than 4 in 10 Americans (45 percent) think the coronavirus situation in the United States is getting better, 36 percent think it's staying about the same, and 15 percent think it's getting worse.
a fan
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Re: All things CoronaVirus

Post by a fan »

Bart wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:04 pm
Which makes total sense. Truckers do not stop from place to place and enter rest stops from state to state. They can not spread the virus from location to location. :roll: :roll:
Just another instance of the, imo, crappy and inconsistent messaging/rules that have been in force since this entire thing began.
Trump made that choice. IMHO, it was the correct choice. Every State has different populations, and different climates, different # of cases, etc.

But that choice was: do we Federalize the whole shooting match? All the rules and procedures for handling the pandemic, soup to nuts?

He chose to let every State make their own rules, and distribute the vaccine to each State. Which has the side benefit for Trump of being a brilliant political move.

Edit to add: and part of letting States choose is that you're getting 51 different messages and rules during the pandemic. We CHOSE to do that. And this choice, as you point out, has its downsides..and one downside is messaging.


Reagan would have Federalized the whole thing, btw. National Emergency. Time for America to pull together. And the irony is, every anti vaxxer in 2021 would have been HARDCORE pro-vaxxers back in 1985. Only the far left froot loops "the man is lying to us" crowd would have refused the shot.....that would have been 3-4% of the population, tops.

My, how things have changed in America.....
Last edited by a fan on Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Brooklyn
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Re: All things CoronaVirus

Post by Brooklyn »

Peter Brown wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:22 am
“The 542 drone strikes that Obama authorized killed an estimated 3,797 people, including 324 civilians. As he reportedly told senior aides in 2011: “Turns out I’m really good at killing people. Didn’t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.”

https://www.cfr.org/blog/obamas-final-drone-strike-data

Just a reminder that when he tried to withdraw your side called him a "surrender monkey"


Image
https://angrywhitebitch.files.wordpress ... .jpg?w=584
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
Bart
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Joined: Mon May 13, 2019 12:42 pm

Re: All things Chinese CoronaVirus

Post by Bart »

kramerica.inc wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:18 pm
Bart wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:50 pm
kramerica.inc wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:02 am
Bart wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:43 pm
kramerica.inc wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:57 pm They already put all their eggs in the Pfizer basket, but they need to push the Moderna.
Better staying power.
Huh?
What are you getting at here?
The .gov is pushing pfizer because of the approval.
But it appears the Moderna is better when it comes to actual effectiveness and long-lasting staying power.
There is an efficacy gap.
Research published on Friday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that the efficacy of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine against hospitalization fell from 91% to 77% after a four-month period following the second shot. The Moderna vaccine showed no decline over the same period
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-wor ... -the-edge/
Thought that was what you were getting at here. Thanks.
There is a small gap in efficacy. With the confidence intervals of the Moderna (91-95) and the CI of Pfizer (85-91), with a p of .01. Some of this was perhaps due to the 2x more data points in the Pfizer than Moderna but with out the actual numbers it is hard to tell how much doubling the Moderna sample would widen the CI.

It really is an interesting question considering both formats use basically the same thing. It could all come down to the narrative that "more is better". Since the original Moderna dose was 100 micrograms of mRNA and Pfizer was 30 micograms of mRNA. So after two doses Moderna has 140 micrograms more mRNA. Then there is the difference between first and second dose.............Is that week longer interim that much important for the Moderna effectiveness? Moving forward it will be interesting to see how things go.......Moderna is going to boost with only 50 micrograms of mRNA while Pfizer give you 30.....still less than the Moderna. Interesingly there is very little difference in ab increases in titer boosting either the Moderna or Pfizer (Althought the moderna in this paper is boosted at 100 micrograms and not the 50 they are actually giving) https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 21264827v1

IMO, we are very lucky to have what we have. Very effective vaccines that help prevent death and disease. Under normal circumstances many of these questions (optimum dose, optimum time frame) would be more fleshed out but this is the szchit show of 2020-2021 and we have what we have.
This is another reason why some of my employees are hesitant to comply with the vaccine mandate. They postulate the next step is mandated boosters. And until there is any hard info on the proper time/dose to boost, you will have many people deferring the original mandate under religious exemptions.
While that may be a fear, I suppose, I’d say you don’t discount the good…..hell the very good, in search of the perfect. A perfect that may never materialized.
Peter Brown
Posts: 12878
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Re: All things CoronaVirus

Post by Peter Brown »

Ooooops. Looks like the booster is the next Democratic mandate.

Hospitalization of the Vaccinated Rising

As cases of Covid-19 rise throughout the U.S., health officials warn that an increasing number of fully vaccinated people are being hospitalized or going to the emergency room. The concern about waning immunity against severe Covid infection comes as the Food and Drug Administration is expected to authorize a Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine booster shot for all adults 18 and older.


https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-n ... s-rcna5907


(ps: they won’t stop at one booster)
seacoaster
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Re: All things CoronaVirus

Post by seacoaster »

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/18/opin ... court.html

"A rogue court is on the loose in the country. No, not the Supreme Court — not yet, anyway. It’s the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit, and it’s out of control.

Based in New Orleans, with jurisdiction that extends to Mississippi and Texas as well as Louisiana, the Fifth Circuit once covered nearly the entire Deep South and became known as the courageous, indispensable court of the civil rights era. But it has been a conservative court for decades. Now, bolstered by six judges appointed by President Donald Trump, the 17-member court has turned radical.

The latest example came last week, when a three-judge Fifth Circuit panel issued a stay of the Biden administration’s requirement that companies employing 100 or more people require their work force to be vaccinated against Covid-19 or to submit to masking and weekly testing. Two of the judges, Kurt Engelhardt and Kyle Duncan, are Trump appointees. The third, Edith Jones, a former chief judge of the circuit appointed by President Ronald Reagan in 1985, used to be considered the court’s most conservative member. But her new colleagues are well on their way to outdoing her.

Judge Engelhardt’s 20-page attack on the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, the federal agency that issued the vaccine order, is an astonishing document.

It opens with the bizarre observation that the agency declared in June 2020 that an emergency order to protect people in the workplace from Covid-19 was “not necessary,” the suggestion being that OSHA had no business changing its mind. One point that goes unmentioned is that there were no vaccines at the time; the first emergency use authorization for one was not approved until Dec. 11 of that year. Now there are vaccines — highly effective ones that millions of misguided Americans refuse to get, allowing the coronavirus to keep circulating and mutating.

Judge Engelhardt’s offhand observation that a virus that has killed some 765,000 Americans is, after all, “non-life-threatening to a vast majority of employees” is, to put it politely, a Fox News perspective on the pandemic that has no place in a judicial opinion reviewing the work of an expert agency.

The panel concluded that OSHA had exceeded its statutory authority and probably its constitutional authority as well. Although noting that the judicial norm is to accord “great deference” toward the agency’s fact-based policy judgments, Judge Engelhardt said that, to the contrary, “this is not a case where any amount of deference would make a bit of difference.”

Its legal analysis aside, the most startling aspect of the panel’s decision was that it was issued at all. By the time the Fifth Circuit ruled on Nov. 12, a procedure was already underway to consolidate the many challenges to the OSHA rule that were piling up in courts around the country and to send them all to one federal appeals court to be chosen by lottery. This is standard federal court practice to deal with what’s known as multidistrict litigation.

In other words, a court less eager to shape the judicial response to the order would simply have waited patiently while this established process played out, as it did on Tuesday when the lottery assigned some three dozen cases to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit, in Cincinnati. Although the Biden administration can now ask the Sixth Circuit to lift the Fifth Circuit’s stay, the stay remains in effect, and the panel’s dismissive language about the pandemic’s threat is there for the world to see.

The Fifth Circuit’s aggressive behavior in the vaccine case almost pales in comparison to what the court has done with abortion. In September the court rejected pleas from abortion providers in Texas to put the vigilante law Senate Bill 8 on hold to enable the clinics to litigate their case against it. The clinics’ emergency motion came before the same three judges who later ruled in the OSHA vaccine case.

The panel’s 19-page unsigned opinion in the case, Whole Woman’s Health v. Jackson, analyzed the obstacles the private plaintiffs faced in finding someone to sue over a law that purports to insulate all state officials from responsibility for administering a flagrantly unconstitutional ban on abortion after only six weeks of pregnancy. In rejecting the clinics’ motion, the panel declared primly that “we must respect the limits of our jurisdiction.” The clinics’ claims against a Texas state court judge and court clerk were “specious,” the court said.

The federal government then brought its own suit against Texas on the completely different theory that S.B. 8 was an affront to the sovereign interests of the United States and to the supremacy of federal law. A federal district judge, Robert Pitman, granted the preliminary injunction the federal government sought in a 113-page opinion that meticulously dismantled all of the state’s objections to the court’s jurisdiction.

A different Fifth Circuit three-judge panel, by a vote of 2 to 1, promptly blocked Judge Pitman’s order, explaining in a single sentence of a single paragraph that it was granting the state’s request for the stay “for the reasons stated in Whole Woman’s Health v. Jackson.” How could this be? The “reasons stated” in rejecting the private plaintiffs’ case had nothing to do with the federal government’s suit, as the Solicitor General’s Office told the Supreme Court in its application to vacate the Fifth Circuit’s stay.

“Those reasons do not apply to this very different suit,” the acting solicitor general, Brian Fletcher, explained to the justices. “Sovereign immunity forced the private plaintiffs in Whole Woman’s Health to sue individual state officers, and this court and the Fifth Circuit questioned whether those officers were proper defendants. This suit does not raise those questions because it was brought against the state of Texas itself, and the state has no immunity from suits by the United States. The Fifth Circuit ignored that distinction, which refutes the court’s only justification for the stay.” When the justices refused to lift the stay, instead setting the case for the argument that took place on Nov. 1, Justice Sonia Sotomayor echoed the solicitor general’s point in a powerful dissenting opinion.

There is no conceivable excuse for the Fifth Circuit’s failure to explain itself or for the Supreme Court’s failure to call the court to account for its dereliction of duty. But so far, the Fifth Circuit is winning. S.B. 8 is still in effect.

Let’s not forget that this is the same court that in 2018, in a challenge brought by an abortion provider, June Medical Services, upheld the Louisiana law that required doctors who provide abortions to have admitting privileges at nearby hospitals. It was bad enough that this was a requirement that, in the political and religious climate in Louisiana, doctors could not meet. What was really wrong with the Fifth Circuit’s decision was that two years earlier, in Whole Woman’s Health v. Hellerstedt, the Supreme Court invalidated an identical law from Texas. In that case, the Supreme Court overturned a Fifth Circuit decision concluding that the admitting privileges requirement, despite having resulted in the closing of nearly half the abortion clinics in Texas, did not impose an “undue burden” on women’s access to abortion.

For the Fifth Circuit to then turn around and uphold the Louisiana law — with an analysis that boiled down to “that was Texas, and this is Louisiana” — was an act of judicial defiance that was too much even for Chief Justice John Roberts, who dissented in the Texas case. In his separate opinion in June Medical v. Russo, concurring with the decision to overturn the Fifth Circuit and strike down the Louisiana law, he made clear that he still thought the majority was wrong in the Texas case but that the Fifth Circuit was nonetheless bound by the precedent the Supreme Court had set.

If the chief justice’s intention in that 2020 opinion was to deliver the Fifth Circuit a slap on the wrist, the pain of that slap has evidently dissipated. If anything, the justices’ recent series of responses to the S.B. 8 litigation has served to enable and even to empower a lower court that has lost awareness of its place in the judicial hierarchy.

And maybe some members of the Supreme Court think that’s just fine: Let the Fifth Circuit do the dirty work, pushing the law in their preferred direction while they sit back and look judicious. But that’s a mirage. When the Supreme Court allows a lower court to go rogue, it is going rogue itself. Most people may not be able to locate the Fifth Circuit on a map, but there is no such invisibility for the Supreme Court. The public sees what it sees. The women of Texas can’t exercise a constitutional right, and the coronavirus is still killing a thousand Americans a day."
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