Is America a racist nation?

[DocBarrister]

Hate America First.

Far fewer Japanese died from the 2 bombs than had the B-29 fire bombing continued.

Look, we have seen anti-Asian racism from multiple people on our own forum here in the 21st century.

Are you suggesting that anti-Asian racism played no role in how we conducted the war against Japan or how the United States treated its own Japanese American citizens?

DocBarrister

Good night Tokyo Rose.

This is a blatantly racist post.

You’re an embarrassment to this forum.

DocBarrister

[old salt]

Hate America First.

Far fewer Japanese died from the 2 bombs than had the B-29 fire bombing continued.

Look, we have seen anti-Asian racism from multiple people on our own forum here in the 21st century.

Are you suggesting that anti-Asian racism played no role in how we conducted the war against Japan or how the United States treated its own Japanese American citizens?

DocBarrister

Good night Tokyo Rose.

This is a blatantly racist post.

You’re an embarrassment to this forum.

DocBarrister

Agree. It is blatantly racist to post that youtube clip & is an embarrassment to this forum.

[MDlaxfan76]

Salty likes to pretend that only he knows the "complexity" of the situation, while making absolutist judgments that reject that complexity, whereas most of us are saying that there were numerous factors, that should not be denied as real. What actually was in the key decision maker's minds, exactly how they weighed all the various factors, we can't know with 100% certainty, indeed even the participants had difficulty parsing out all those influences. But we do find more than sufficient evidence that supports each of the factors in turn as being part of the equation. What were the tipping elements is much more difficult, but at least to my view, without the racial animus piece, the second bomb would not have been dropped, and quite possibly neither would the first.

Here is what you said, with which I took issue :

(1) I think the point was that had we agreed earlier that the Emperor could remain, the nuclear option would not have been required. But instead we kept demanding "unconditional" surrender. And they kept saying 'no'. In the end, we didn't really need "unconditional".

(2) I can't fathom why the second bomb was necessary...they certainly needed time to process what had happened, and we were in no greater risk had we simply waited for that to occur.

With just a minimum of research (like a wikisearch), it becomes obvious why (1) was not a realistic possibility when you see what was going on within the Japanese govt. Your "wish" was not possible.

Likewise, if you examine what was going on between bombs #1 & #2, it becomes obvious why #2 was necessary.
There was no reason to believe the militarists would ever relent & that the Emperor would survive & maintain control of his military.
That is why Truman was preparing to drop #3 on Tokyo as soon as it became available & he may well have done so during the delay in accepting the terms if he had a #3 ready.

And you keep ignoring all the evidence that addresses your absolute certainty, indeed substantially refutes it.

But that's ok, because I definitely think there's countervailing 'evidence' both directions. We certainly didn't have surefire insight into what Japan would and would not do, once they understood the calamity they'd just suffered. But I read that lack of surefire insight as calling for a bit more patience, and the lack thereof as quite plausibly explained, at least in part, by the racial animus. A factor, not the sole factor.

But the racial animus was definitely real.

[MDlaxfan76]

Hate America First.

Far fewer Japanese died from the 2 bombs than had the B-29 fire bombing continued.

Look, we have seen anti-Asian racism from multiple people on our own forum here in the 21st century.

Are you suggesting that anti-Asian racism played no role in how we conducted the war against Japan or how the United States treated its own Japanese American citizens?

DocBarrister

Good night Tokyo Rose.

This is a blatantly racist post.

You’re an embarrassment to this forum.

DocBarrister

Agree. It is blatantly racist to post that youtube clip & is an embarrassment to this forum.

I quite disagree.
The clip is a very, very clear artifact demonstrating the racist zeitgeist that was so acceptable at that time. It's the opposite of an endorsement, the opposite os someone suggesting it's funny.

I dunno what your response was supposed to mean, were you trying to be funny? Or did you perhaps have a serious point?

As that's an open question, I disagree with Doc making the assumption that your post was racist. Possible, but not a certainty.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Hate America First.

Far fewer Japanese died from the 2 bombs than had the B-29 fire bombing continued.

Look, we have seen anti-Asian racism from multiple people on our own forum here in the 21st century.

Are you suggesting that anti-Asian racism played no role in how we conducted the war against Japan or how the United States treated its own Japanese American citizens?

DocBarrister

Good night Tokyo Rose.

This is a blatantly racist post.

You’re an embarrassment to this forum.

DocBarrister

Agree. It is blatantly racist to post that youtube clip & is an embarrassment to this forum.

Your days of “moderating” are over….

[old salt]

And you keep ignoring all the evidence that addresses your absolute certainty, indeed substantially refutes it.

But the racial animus was definitely real.

Stop whining about absolute certainty when you can't muster the facts to support your position & are too lazy to find them.

Who said racial animus was not real ? I asserted that it was not a significant factor in the decision to drop the bomb, & certainly not a primary factor, as some assert.

[Typical Lax Dad]

And you keep ignoring all the evidence that addresses your absolute certainty, indeed substantially refutes it.

But the racial animus was definitely real.

Stop whining about absolute certainty when you can't muster the facts to support your position & are too lazy to find them.

Who said racial animus was not real ? I asserted that it was not a significant factor in the decision to drop the bomb, & certainly not a primary factor, as some assert.

Softened up the minds of the US Populist
https://www.jstor.org/stable/24449072

https://artifactsjournal.missouri.edu/2 ... of-racism/

https://www.ohiohistory.org/learn/colle ... phwilliams

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.jstor.org/stable/24443683

[Typical Lax Dad]

[old salt]

I dunno what your response was supposed to mean, were you trying to be funny? Or did you perhaps have a serious point?

As that's an open question, I disagree with Doc making the assumption that your post was racist. Possible, but not a certainty.

Since TLD was using a WW II propaganda device to depict me as Popeye (as he has done before), I replied in genre casting him in the role of Tokyo Rose, which accurately reflects his function.

[Typical Lax Dad]

On the other hand

[Typical Lax Dad]

[Typical Lax Dad]

Mass media doesn’t influence how people think….

[MDlaxfan76]

And you keep ignoring all the evidence that addresses your absolute certainty, indeed substantially refutes it.

But the racial animus was definitely real.

Stop whining about absolute certainty when you can't muster the facts to support your position & are too lazy to find them.

Who said racial animus was not real ? I asserted that it was not a significant factor in the decision to drop the bomb, & certainly not a primary factor, as some assert.

assert away; you're simply not persuasive.

It's really complicated, many factors, for sure, but it's very clear that the racial animus clearly effected other decisions that are in retrospect quite outrageous but were "justified" at the time and for decades thereafter..., and these two bomb drops are the only such dropped on a civilian population, ever...9 days apart.

[MDlaxfan76]

I dunno what your response was supposed to mean, were you trying to be funny? Or did you perhaps have a serious point?

As that's an open question, I disagree with Doc making the assumption that your post was racist. Possible, but not a certainty.

Since TLD was using a WW II propaganda device to depict me as Popeye (as he has done before), I replied in genre casting him in the role of Tokyo Rose, which accurately reflects his function.

you thought it was specific to you as Popeye?

ok, I can see how that got under your skin.

But no, TLD's not playing remotely the role of Tokyo Rose....you've let yourself get too personally defensive on this, IMO.

Of course, you may be defensive because you should be. Maybe?

[Typical Lax Dad]

I dunno what your response was supposed to mean, were you trying to be funny? Or did you perhaps have a serious point?

As that's an open question, I disagree with Doc making the assumption that your post was racist. Possible, but not a certainty.

Since TLD was using a WW II propaganda device to depict me as Popeye (as he has done before), I replied in genre casting him in the role of Tokyo Rose, which accurately reflects his function.

you thought it was specific to you as Popeye?

ok, I can see how that got under your skin.

But no, TLD's not playing remotely the role of Tokyo Rose....you've let yourself get too personally defensive on this, IMO.

Of course, you may be defensive because you should be. Maybe?

Not sure why Old Salt elects to step into the shoes of the us government. Had an army cartoon come up, I would have used that. Didn’t take old sailor to be a snowflake. I am sorry if I hurt his feelings. I should have been more woke. Those cartoons came up because the depictions of Germans and Italians weren’t as gross and we didn’t drop a bomb on them
and our boys abroad didn’t send skulls back to the paramours…Not sure we have ever detonated a bomb on folks that look like us….dropped one in Philly though.

[Typical Lax Dad]

[Typical Lax Dad]

I dunno what your response was supposed to mean, were you trying to be funny? Or did you perhaps have a serious point?

As that's an open question, I disagree with Doc making the assumption that your post was racist. Possible, but not a certainty.

Since TLD was using a WW II propaganda device to depict me as Popeye (as he has done before), I replied in genre casting him in the role of Tokyo Rose, which accurately reflects his function.

I am Tokyo Rose? You have done better than that in the past….It didn’t cross my mind that there was a nexus between the two post until right now.

[old salt]

And you keep ignoring all the evidence that addresses your absolute certainty, indeed substantially refutes it.

But the racial animus was definitely real.

Stop whining about absolute certainty when you can't muster the facts to support your position & are too lazy to find them.

Who said racial animus was not real ? I asserted that it was not a significant factor in the decision to drop the Bomb, & certainly not a primary factor, as some assert.

assert away; you're simply not persuasive.

It's really complicated, many factors, for sure, but it's very clear that the racial animus clearly effected other decisions that are in retrospect quite outrageous but were "justified" at the time and for decades thereafter..., and these two bomb drops are the only such dropped on a civilian population, ever...9 days apart.

Yes or no ? Are you asserting that absent racial animus, Truman would not have dropped the Bomb(s) on Japan ?

The success of post war nuc deterrence is irrelevant to the decision making in 1945.
All the powers were racing to get the Bomb to use it to end the war. There was no nuclear taboo, yet.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.maurer.ca/USBombing.html

The indoctrinated mind may interpret this list in a number of ways. My mind is simple…. this list is what it is.