MAAC 2022

[redfoxalum]

Conference realignment storyline to monitor: Monmouth is being mentioned for the CAA in the wake of James Madison leaving the CAA for the Sun Belt. The MAAC poached Monmouth and Quinnipiac from the NEC for basketball, but CAA football is a big upgrade for Monmouth so it wouldn’t be a surprise to see them make that move. There is nothing left for the MAAC to poach in the NEC for basketball and no independents to bring in for a lax affiliate membership, which is why getting St. Bonaventure as an affiliate was so critical. After losing Detroit Mercy, the MAAC can only afford to lose 1 more program and still maintain their AQ under the current rules. Losing Monmouth would put MAAC lax in a precarious position as some other current members are known to have aspirations of moving to a new conference.

https://amp.app.com/amp/8572218002

[Farfromgeneva]

Conference realignment storyline to monitor: Monmouth is being mentioned for the CAA in the wake of James Madison leaving the CAA for the Sun Belt. The MAAC poached Monmouth and Quinnipiac from the NEC for basketball, but CAA football is a big upgrade for Monmouth so it wouldn’t be a surprise to see them make that move. There is nothing left for the MAAC to poach in the NEC for basketball and no independents to bring in for a lax affiliate membership, which is why getting St. Bonaventure as an affiliate was so critical. After losing Detroit Mercy, the MAAC can only afford to lose 1 more program and still maintain their AQ under the current rules. Losing Monmouth would put MAAC lax in a precarious position as some other current members are known to have aspirations of moving to a new conference.

https://amp.app.com/amp/8572218002

Let me queue up for some.

“We should make Fairfield join for lacrosse if they want to be in for basketball”

[10stone5]

Conference realignment storyline to monitor: Monmouth is being mentioned for the CAA in the wake of James Madison leaving the CAA for the Sun Belt. The MAAC poached Monmouth and Quinnipiac from the NEC for basketball, but CAA football is a big upgrade for Monmouth so it wouldn’t be a surprise to see them make that move. There is nothing left for the MAAC to poach in the NEC for basketball and no independents to bring in for a lax affiliate membership, which is why getting St. Bonaventure as an affiliate was so critical. After losing Detroit Mercy, the MAAC can only afford to lose 1 more program and still maintain their AQ under the current rules. Losing Monmouth would put MAAC lax in a precarious position as some other current members are known to have aspirations of moving to a new conference.

https://amp.app.com/amp/8572218002

I don’t see a re-alignment happening for lacrosse.

UMass left the CAA, its been a while, and are now in the top
level of college football, as an independent, getting beat
senseless by the likes of Florida State, Georgia, BYU and the
like — but presumably bringing home a nice paycheck.
UMass’ football move had no effect on UMass lacrosse.

Still, the CAA for lacrosse has been looking for a seventh
addition since Penn State left, have heard Richmond, Albany,
Stony Brook — and I guess, now, Monmouth.

[D2fan]

With the success across the board for LIU Post and Merrimack and many rumblings down south about schools going D1.

Does the MAAC investigate a Le Moyne or Mercyhurst and push them into DI?

Both are small private catholic colleges just like everyone else in the MAAC

Le Moyne especially because they fit right into the conference geographically. They have a good history of strong basketball.

Mercyhurst has enjoyed recent success across their athletic department and already has DI Men's and Women's hockey. Men's Hockey already competes in the same conference as Canisius and Niagara.

[redfoxalum]

Conference realignment storyline to monitor: Monmouth is being mentioned for the CAA in the wake of James Madison leaving the CAA for the Sun Belt. The MAAC poached Monmouth and Quinnipiac from the NEC for basketball, but CAA football is a big upgrade for Monmouth so it wouldn’t be a surprise to see them make that move. There is nothing left for the MAAC to poach in the NEC for basketball and no independents to bring in for a lax affiliate membership, which is why getting St. Bonaventure as an affiliate was so critical. After losing Detroit Mercy, the MAAC can only afford to lose 1 more program and still maintain their AQ under the current rules. Losing Monmouth would put MAAC lax in a precarious position as some other current members are known to have aspirations of moving to a new conference.

https://amp.app.com/amp/8572218002

I don’t see a re-alignment happening for lacrosse.

UMass left the CAA, its been a while, and are now in the top
level of college football, as an independent, getting beat
senseless by the likes of Florida State, Georgia, BYU and the
like — but presumably bringing home a nice paycheck.
UMass’ football move had no effect on UMass lacrosse.

Still, the CAA for lacrosse has been looking for a seventh
addition since Penn State left, have heard Richmond, Albany,
Stony Brook — and I guess, now, Monmouth.

Lacrosse realignment isn’t going to be a choice if Monmouth goes to the CAA, the lacrosse program goes as well. Success in football is irrelevant. Only Rich Ensor and the MAAC would allow a school to get away with being a full time member and play a sport in a different conference, despite their own conference sponsoring that sport. (Though don’t think that has worked out for Fairfield - there have been MAAC teams as good or better than them since they’ve made that move. And they haven’t sniffed a NCAA tournament in the CAA. But that’s another discussion).

The A10 is also worth monitoring. St. Bonaventure makes 4 full time A10 members playing lacrosse. Richmond, St. Joseph’s, and UMass being the others. They already have a few other members playing women’s lacrosse, they would probably sponsor men’s lacrosse if 2 more decide to play. Siena has the best basketball arena in the Albany Times Union Center and there are occasional rumblings about them wanting to upgrade basketball by going to the A10.

Marist has an ambitious new President from Amherst who sources say wants to eventually follow in Loyola’s footsteps in moving from the MAAC to the Patriot League. Fairfield has long been known to covet to a Patriot League invite, and was in the mix when they brought in Loyola and Boston University. There could once again be a lot of moving parts in the next 5-10 years in the composition of a few college lacrosse conferences.

[Farfromgeneva]

With the success across the board for LIU Post and Merrimack and many rumblings down south about schools going D1.

Does the MAAC investigate a Le Moyne or Mercyhurst and push them into DI?

Both are small private catholic colleges just like everyone else in the MAAC

Le Moyne especially because they fit right into the conference geographically. They have a good history of strong basketball.

Mercyhurst has enjoyed recent success across their athletic department and already has DI Men's and Women's hockey. Men's Hockey already competes in the same conference as Canisius and Niagara.

Getting LeMoyne, though I think unlikely (they don't have that much dough), would be a coup.

[laxfan345]

Marist has an ambitious new President from Amherst who sources say wants to eventually follow in Loyola’s footsteps in moving from the MAAC to the Patriot League. Fairfield has long been known to covet to a Patriot League invite, and was in the mix when they brought in Loyola and Boston University. There could once again be a lot of moving parts in the next 5-10 years in the composition of a few college lacrosse conferences.
[/quote]

This will be interesting to watch, football at Marist has never given scholarships. It's part of the reason why they are in the Pioneer League. I wonder if they were to move to the Patriot, would football stay in the Pioneer or would the school start giving football scholarships?

[Farfromgeneva]

Really don't see Marist going to PL.

[fatherof2]

For the MAAC..... Maybe it's time for Niagara to add men's lacrosse. saying this, I have no idea of their financial ability to do this.

[StuckinD2]

With the success across the board for LIU Post and Merrimack and many rumblings down south about schools going D1.

Does the MAAC investigate a Le Moyne or Mercyhurst and push them into DI?

Both are small private catholic colleges just like everyone else in the MAAC

Le Moyne especially because they fit right into the conference geographically. They have a good history of strong basketball.

A few years ago LeMoyne was on the short list of schools who wanted to make the Jump. They were vocal about it with other D2’s in the area. I’d see this being more realistic then Hurst.

Mercyhurst has enjoyed recent success across their athletic department and already has DI Men's and Women's hockey. Men's Hockey already competes in the same conference as Canisius and Niagara.

Getting LeMoyne, though I think unlikely (they don't have that much dough), would be a coup.

[Farfromgeneva]

With the success across the board for LIU Post and Merrimack and many rumblings down south about schools going D1.

Does the MAAC investigate a Le Moyne or Mercyhurst and push them into DI?

Both are small private catholic colleges just like everyone else in the MAAC

Le Moyne especially because they fit right into the conference geographically. They have a good history of strong basketball.

A few years ago LeMoyne was on the short list of schools who wanted to make the Jump. They were vocal about it with other D2’s in the area. I’d see this being more realistic then Hurst.

Mercyhurst has enjoyed recent success across their athletic department and already has DI Men's and Women's hockey. Men's Hockey already competes in the same conference as Canisius and Niagara.

Getting LeMoyne, though I think unlikely (they don't have that much dough), would be a coup.

Maybe but $180MM for 3,500-4,000 students isn't a huge amount - like $50k/student enrolled. Jacksonville needs lacrosse as a existentialist strategic move. LeMoyne has a niche carved out. LIU athletics was due to the merger of two schools who individually weren't doing so well for sports rebranding and had like 8,500 kids (and a 38% graduation rate). Merrimack has $50-$60MM endowment for over 5,000 kids, existentialist threat w/o sports at $10k/student.

Think the NCAA rule changes need to shake out before schools are going to make a move up, particularly involving all sports. The implication for LeMoyne BB is all that will matter, maybe baseball as well.

BTW a friend of mine was "Wizard" of Dolphy Day one year...

[ImpartialObserver]

I have a child who played HS lacrosse (they chose not to play in college). When were looking at schools we cast a wide net and we came across Le Moyne. It seems that the MAAC should be targeting LeMoyne. At roughly $200MM (they were in the middle of a $100MM fundraising effort when COVID hit, so I don't know exactly where they are) their endowment would be the 4th largest in the MAAC outright and on endowment per student basis they would actually be third highest. Their athletic teams and in particular, their lacrosse teams would be competitive within the league and their student athletes seem to graduate.

I don't know how the the economics of giving institutional funding and scholarship mix would be effected but when we visited Le Moyne I thought that they would actually be a good fit for Liberty League, (schools my child was looking at and that LeMoyne competes with for students) but that conference is D3. My understanding is that their non-student-athlete applicant pool is mainly from NY / Northeast (and the typical Le Moyne applicant applies to a few MAAC and Liberty League schools -Niagara, Canisius, Fairfield, Siena, Marist, Hobart, Clarkson, Rochester, with SUNY Geneseo, Albany, Binghamton, Buffalo, and a few BC, Fordham, Loyola MD and Holy Cross thrown in). It seems that applicants do not apply to other NE-10 schools.

[Cape&Islands]

Just heard yesterday, this will be the last year Monmouth competes in the MAAC. They are moving to the CAA next year. Football may stay in the Big South one more year if they need to contractually, but then move over as well. Check out the Asbury Park Press website.
Sad to see them go. The fit in geographically and competitively...

[Farfromgeneva]

I have a child who played HS lacrosse (they chose not to play in college). When were looking at schools we cast a wide net and we came across Le Moyne. It seems that the MAAC should be targeting LeMoyne. At roughly $200MM (they were in the middle of a $100MM fundraising effort when COVID hit, so I don't know exactly where they are) their endowment would be the 4th largest in the MAAC outright and on endowment per student basis they would actually be third highest. Their athletic teams and in particular, their lacrosse teams would be competitive within the league and their student athletes seem to graduate.

I don't know how the the economics of giving institutional funding and scholarship mix would be effected but when we visited Le Moyne I thought that they would actually be a good fit for Liberty League, (schools my child was looking at and that LeMoyne competes with for students) but that conference is D3. My understanding is that their non-student-athlete applicant pool is mainly from NY / Northeast (and the typical Le Moyne applicant applies to a few MAAC and Liberty League schools -Niagara, Canisius, Fairfield, Siena, Marist, Hobart, Clarkson, Rochester, with SUNY Geneseo, Albany, Binghamton, Buffalo, and a few BC, Fordham, Loyola MD and Holy Cross thrown in). It seems that applicants do not apply to other NE-10 schools.

The LL doesn’t have any interest in LeMoyne. They rejected Ithaca twice before accepting them in largely to maintain an AQ in football when they lost affiliate members MMA, WPI and CGA. As a Hobart alum who was on their jr board (don’t see a path to the full one as of now for me) and who’s best friend went to LeMoyne I don’t know a single person from section 4 who looked at both LeMoyne and Hobart/Rochester (very few apply to Roch and Bart, Roch applicants, though in the LL, more likely apply to other UAA schools (NYU, CMU, Case Western, Wash U, NYU) + Union/RPI from the LL. Friend (who’s dad was a partner in the “big” firm in in Binghamton but notoriously stingy) that went to LeMoyne applied to mostly SUNYs and LeMoyne was a rare private because it was one of the cheapest sticker priced private schools out there. One of his roommates from my area transferred to LeMoyne after playing lacrosse at a Niagara for a year (club I guess though they had D1 at one point I believe).

[ImpartialObserver]

I would bet that every student who applies to Le Moyne applies to at least one of the schools I listed with Hobart/WS being the outlier with the least overlap. We visited H/WS for each of my kids and it is the one that doesn't seem to overlap with anything in NYS other than St. Lawrence. Kids who aren't playing a sport use Le Moyne as a safety for the East Coast Jesuits or as an option to Larger SUNYs/Local Upstate Catholics/Privates (SU, Rochester). I agree that they typically make the financial equations work in their favor by not starting with an inflated tuition price and still offering a lot of merit/financial aid - It's the difference between (typical east coast private) $75K list and $40K Net Cost and $55K List and $27K Net Cost (Le Moyne).

[Farfromgeneva]

Yes, LeMoyne applicants apply to MAAC schools and SUNYs that I agree with but there is a wide gulf between LeMoyne and Roch/Union/RPI. That was the point that LeMoyne isn’t any kind of LL fit. E8 (SJF/Cortland/Brockport/Utica/Hartwick/Morrissville/Alfred) and MAAC are closer. MAAC makes sense depending on how baseball fits into it all as it’s still a huge deal at LeMoyne.

Like I said, the best friend applied to a few SUNYs, maybe one other private school, and LeMoyne. He was an honor roll student at our HS in Broome Co where I and one of my other close friend were the only two in the top 20 graduates who didn’t go Ivy or equivalent (Duke, Swarthmore, etc) so he could’ve gone to other schools but his dad is a good guy but acts like a Dresden camp survivor with resources. I went to Hobart (wait list accepted to Brown and also accepted to Richmond but a whole long story got me to Geneva) and the other friend went to UofR. Basically an hour from Syracuse where we grew up. I’m technically banned from LeMoynes campus from a party my friend and his rugby team threw where I took the fall for a whole lot of their activities (I may have participated a little but they did $18k in damage that night). Went back many times the following year of course. I know that campus well, even having participated in dolphy day (more fun than slope day at Cornell IMO).

Hobart and SLU are more like safety schools for Rochester applicants. But are fairly similar to other LL schools like Skidmore, Union, Bard etc. it’s fallen off under the prior president gearan who spent 18yrs and grew the endowment less than cumulative 10% over that period ($200mm to $220mm). Back when I was applying the typical Hobart kid was considering SLU, Skidmore, Union, Hamilton, some lower end NESCAC schools like Trinity, Conn College and maybe a few centennial schools like Dickinson, Gettysburg & F&M. They’ve slipped a bit unfortunately as we’re talking a statue for president Gearan - a guy who let us slip 15-20 spots in USNWR over his tenure…

Ironically in this Jesuit discussion Ali Marpet, the highest D3 draft pick ever, 7yr starter, SB champ and current pro bowler, originally considered going to play football at Fordham (Jesuit) though he’s Jewish and from WestChester Co, before electing to come to Geneva.

[ImpartialObserver]

The three schools you pick to highlight from the Liberty League - Rochester, Union and RPI are not the middle of the league by any stretch. RPI and Rochester are major research universities that are 5 times the size of the average LL school and Union is a NESCAC school that is just not in the NESCAC because they wanted to keep their hockey D1.

Where I live Hobart/WS and SLU are safeties/matches for non-Athlete students that don't want to be in the hinterlands - PA colleges like F&M, Dickinson, Muhlenberg, Gettysburg and maybe ConnC and Skidmore.

Ironically the 3 schools Le Moyne compares favorably with - Marist, Siena and Loyola are doing everything they can to get out or have already left the MAAC, so I don't think that would be a great place for them even though they could probably compete athletically. Add the fact that Fairfield doesn't participate for Lax and Monmouth is out and there is a coming problem for the MAAC.

[Farfromgeneva]

The three schools you pick to highlight from the Liberty League - Rochester, Union and RPI are not the middle of the league by any stretch. RPI and Rochester are major research universities that are 5 times the size of the average LL school and Union is a NESCAC school that is just not in the NESCAC because they wanted to keep their hockey D1.

Where I live Hobart/WS and SLU are safeties/matches for non-Athlete students that don't want to be in the hinterlands - PA colleges like F&M, Dickinson, Muhlenberg, Gettysburg and maybe ConnC and Skidmore.

Ironically the 3 schools Le Moyne compares favorably with - Marist, Siena and Loyola are doing everything they can to get out or have already left the MAAC, so I don't think that would be a great place for them even though they could probably compete athletically. Add the fact that Fairfield doesn't participate for Lax and Monmouth is out and there is a coming problem for the MAAC.

I think we’re actually mostly agreeing. My original point is LeMoyne isn’t really a LL school it compares w Siena and Marist (as well as Cansius and Niagara IMO). Or a lot of the E8 schools (St John Fisher, Hartwick, Elmira College, Utica and SUNYs). LL also has Clarkson, Bard, Skidmore. Pretty dissimilar to LeMoyne.

But again, they dropped 20 or so spots since I graduated in USNWR.

Perspectives are all different. I played football at Hobart (and one year of tennis) so those are the three longtime football rivals going back to Pre LL UCAA days. We even had a post game brawl at Frank Bailey field one year that I played Pre-dot com bubble burst as we were coming up as a program under a relatively new coach at the time (MIke Cragg) as the school had just recently moved up to D1 for lacrosse right before I got there in 1995. We’ve played Union 104 times dating back to 1896, RPI 64 times starting in 1910 and Rochester (which we have a trophy rivalry game with more recently) 113 times dating back to 1892. The UCAA for football was SLU, Bart, Roch, Union and RPI dating back into the early mid 90s (or earlier) w Rochester carrying dual conference affiliation with the UAA (NYU, U Wash, Case, Carnegie & Chicago) - https://www.d3football.com/conf/UCAA/2000/standings

So those CC schools were direct peers along with backend of NESCAC. Had numerous friends in college who transferred into places like non HYP ivies or mid-upper NESCAC (bowdoin and middlebury specifically). I got myself on social probation ans couldn’t pledge and being pissy applied to transfer and was accepted to Tufts and Wesleyan myself but didn’t transfer when I wished up to what it really means to transfer and wasn’t getting that much closer to my girlfriend in NYC if I did so.

RPI grew their endowment 2.5x under Shirley Jackson in less than a decade. When I left Unions endowment was much closer to Hobart’s and then we grew 10% cumulative in 20yrs while they doubled like any decent college because our president was afraid to ask for dough (despite Abby Johnson who runs fidelity being worth $15Bn so even an in kind 0.5% of her net worth being a meaningful bump at any point over that period).

I came from a good public school with weak guidance counselors and lower middle class/upper lower class upbringing so I probably should’ve gone elsewhere myself as my parents liked to point out but they had a community college degree and a much later in life BA/MA Geneseo/Cornell ILR (the latter happening after I was in Hs by my mother at night while she worked for the state) so I knew nothing about college until I actually got to Hobart unlike my Hs academic peers who were doctors and lawyers kids from larger cities who ended up in Broome Co.

[redfoxalum]

Basketball is the primary factor that drives the MAAC’s expansion targets. Unlike when they took Monmouth and Quinnipiac from the NEC after losing Loyola to the Patriot League, there aren’t any obvious realistic good targets currently. Fortunately from a MLAX perspective, bringing in St. Bonaventure as an affiliate member allows the conference to field enough teams to maintain the AQ.

Monmouth and Stony Brook to the CAA is unlikely to be the only domino to fall for the MAAC and America East over the next few years.

[Farfromgeneva]

How long does Pitino stay at Iona?