Conservatives and Liberals

The odds are excellent that you will leave this forum hating someone.
Farfromgeneva
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Re: Conservatives and Liberals

Post by Farfromgeneva »

a fan wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:02 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:13 pm
a fan wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:50 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:31 pm You waived off any definition of ownership before but there’s a million ways to own something.
Not waiving it off at all...and what YouthA was saying was that UVa doesn't receive much funding from State coffers here in 2021. So what? Who owns the University of Virginia? The State of Virginia, no? So: the government. The definition holds.

As for ownership.....there is nothing keeping governments both here and abroad from investing in, say, Google.

Does that mean Google is socialist? I'd venture to guess, you'd say no. Why? Because Google is managed by private hands....the .gov isn't running it.
Who’s in control of a company or investment vehicle, the agents or the equity owners? The Managing member GP or the LP that owns 95%?

Is GIC or Apollo the owner of some major investment CRE asset?

Is Saudi Arabia, who’s by far the biggest investor in SoftBank in control of WeWork or any SoftBank investments?

What about the GSEs? Fannie, Freddie. Very different than VA/HUD. What about OPIC? Or the Federal Home Loan Banks?

It’s a well known fact that the govt of Cali has elected to keep PG&E afloat when it could've (maybe should’ve) been deemed insolvent like 12x over the pst 30yrs but it’s got private stock and yet is a play toy for the policies to be directed that the politicians want.

What about the Chicago Skyway or Dulles Toll Road?

https://ijglobal.com/articles/99720/chi ... isition-us

https://www.atlasarteria.com/stores/_sh ... 04.pdf?v=6
For the above, the answer is: if the government owns AND manages any of those entities listed? That's socialism.

So for the above---which of the CEO's is collecting a Government paycheck...which government, and what's their title within said government?

If you can't give me a name and title? That's not socialism.

It's a simple definition. What you're talking about are things like handouts, bailouts, subsidies, tax breaks, etc. None of which have anything to do with socialism.

Dulles Toll Road has been discussed before. Dulles Greenway section is a private road----owned by a private corporation. So that's NOT socialism currently. It was SUPPOSED to move to management by the State of VA in 2036. But it would still be privately owned....again, NOT socialism.
Ok. I tried. Way to reductive for my tastes but that’s what you like.

BTW, they don’t own the asset just a 99yr lease concession to run it. Aka public/private partnership
Harvard University, out
University of Utah, in

I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

(Afan jealous he didn’t do this first)
a fan
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Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: Conservatives and Liberals

Post by a fan »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:21 pm Ok. I tried. Way to reductive for my tastes but that’s what you like.
We were in a Cold War over these ideas, FFG. On the verge of nuclear war multiple times. We invaded Vietnam and Korea over these ideas.

But you keep telling me that these things cannot be defined, and are far too nebulous.

Who owns and manages an entity matters to Americans, FFG. You're telling me that this idea is far too nebulous for discussion. Boy, do I disagree.

So do all those who went to war over this concept.
Farfromgeneva
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Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: Conservatives and Liberals

Post by Farfromgeneva »

a fan wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 1:16 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:21 pm Ok. I tried. Way to reductive for my tastes but that’s what you like.
We were in a Cold War over these ideas, FFG. On the verge of nuclear war multiple times. We invaded Vietnam and Korea over these ideas.

But you keep telling me that these things cannot be defined, and are far too nebulous.

Who owns and manages an entity matters to Americans, FFG. You're telling me that this idea is far too nebulous for discussion. Boy, do I disagree.

So do all those who went to war over this concept.
I’m not telling you anything like what you are saying here. You said you care about the definition of words and yet refuse to tell me what ownership means when I give you 47,000 different versions of ownership.

I’m not angry but what I am saying is economists, politicians and owners of and investors of Capital have, from primary source first hand knowledge, defined these things differently.

That makes a discussion more nuanced, I get the sense you’re playing butter battle book on this, and perhaps other, topics when I’m talking about a marketplace of ideas that all have truth and factual basis in them .
Harvard University, out
University of Utah, in

I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

(Afan jealous he didn’t do this first)
Farfromgeneva
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Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: Conservatives and Liberals

Post by Farfromgeneva »

I could own over 90% of the public stock in Facebook and have no influence over Zuckerberg. Do I own 90% of Facebook or does the guy who can run it as he chooses own Facebook?
Harvard University, out
University of Utah, in

I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

(Afan jealous he didn’t do this first)
seacoaster
Posts: 8866
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:36 pm

Re: Conservatives and Liberals

Post by seacoaster »

Max in the Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... stupidity/

"Is there a purer, more perfect expression of the Trumpified Republican Party than the press release that Rep. Lauren Boebert (R-Colo.) sent out on Sept. 24?

It demanded that President Biden be removed from office for “colluding with the Taliban.” This was flagrantly hypocritical because in February she criticized Biden for not withdrawing from Afghanistan fast enough — and then in August she praised the Taliban for “building back better.” But what truly made the release so priceless and preposterous was the logo: “IMEACH BIDEN.” Boebert is showing her contempt not just for political norms but for spelling norms, too.

No one should be surprised that Boebert, who has expressed support for the QAnon cult as well as Biden’s impeachment, is a rising star on the right. Former president Donald Trump’s Twitter feed — back when he still had one — was rife with glaring misspellings as well as absurd lies. Some even suspected the misspellings were deliberate — intended to signal his contempt for eggheads who might care about such niceties.

In the 1980s, when I became a Republican, the GOP took pride in describing itself as the “party of ideas.” But under Trump’s leadership, Republicans have reclaimed their old reputation, dating back to the 1950s, as the “stupid party.” What’s even more telling: This is not a source of shame or embarrassment for the party’s populists. They’re the stupid-and-proud-of-it party.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) responded to House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy’s (R-Calif.) criticism of a mask mandate by saying, “He’s such a moron.” My brilliant colleague Dana Milbank carefully examined this charge and concluded it was “mostly true.” Yet McCarthy is a veritable brainiac compared with many of his GOP colleagues.

On July 30, Rep. Elise Stefanik (R-N.Y.) praised Medicare and Medicaid for protecting “the healthcare of millions of families” and warned: “To safeguard our future, we must reject Socialist healthcare schemes.” Somehow Republicans miss the obvious contradiction between defending Medicare/Medicaid and assailing socialized medicine.

That Stefanik is a Harvard graduate suggests she may only be playing dumb to establish her populist bona fides. This is a charade perfected by Sen. John Neely Kennedy (R.-La.), a graduate of Vanderbilt University, Oxford University and the University of Virginia Law School who pretends to be a country bumpkin. But it tells you something significant that even the brightest lights of the GOP feel compelled to act as if they were dim bulbs.

For some Republicans in Congress, of course, acting dumb comes more naturally than for others. Take Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Tex.) — please. He warns that the Green New Deal, which hasn’t actually passed, is already ushering in an avian apocalypse. Birds that aren’t killed by windmills, he said, are spontaneously combusting while flying over solar panels. He acts as if “flamers” — yes, that’s the term he uses — are actually a big thing. In fact, fossil fuel plants kill many more birds — and people — than solar arrays. Little wonder that, as Gohmert himself admitted, people think he is “the dumbest guy in Congress.”

Hold my dunce cap, says Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Ga.). She doesn’t believe in evolution but does believe in Jewish space lasers. Then there’s Rep. Madison Cawthorn (R-N.C.), who tweets that “1984 is a great fiction novel to read.” As opposed to a great nonfiction novel?

The covid pandemic has brought forth a corresponding pandemic of right-wing inanity. Greene and other Republicans have compared efforts to vaccinate Americans — i.e., to save lives — to the Nazis’ mass murder of Jews. Sen. Ron Johnson (R-Wis.) said he would support vaccine mandates only if “there’s some incredibly dangerous disease.” Covid-19, which has already killed at least 700,000 Americans, doesn’t qualify. Johnson just introduced the Prevent Unconstitutional Vaccine Mandates for Interstate Commerce Act. This raises the obvious question (obvious, that is, to everyone but Johnson): If mandates are unconstitutional, why is legislation needed to stop them? Won’t the courts overturn them?

More egregious examples of Republican ignorance can be found in all their accusations that Democrats are turning America socialist. “They’re forcing their communism through the corporations,” Greene charges, as if “communist corporations” weren’t an oxymoron. Sen. Marsha Blackburn (R-Tenn.) warns that a “socialistic government” won’t “allow women … to be on stage, or entertain.” She seems to have confused the communists with the Taliban. Meanwhile, Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) is upping the rhetorical ante. “The $3.5 trillion Biden plan isn’t socialism, it’s marxism,” he tweets. By his logic, we should already have gulags in America since Trump added $7.8 trillion to the national debt.

I wish I could report some sign that the GOP is wising up. In fact, it is continuing to dumb itself down. Josh Mandel, who is seeking the GOP nomination for U.S. Senate in Ohio, recently tweeted: “You can’t spell panDEMic without ‘DEM.’ Is this a coincidence?” That is a level of reasoning that would seem more at home on an elementary school playground than on the floor of the Senate. But Mandel should fit right in with his Republican colleagues if he is elected. They “imeach” themselves with every witless word."
seacoaster
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Re: Conservatives and Liberals

Post by seacoaster »

Long one, but interesting:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/06/opin ... sion_cut_3

"Just who believes the claim that Trump won in 2020 and that the election was stolen from him? Who are these tens of millions of Americans and what draws them into this web of delusion?

Three sources provided The Times with survey data: The University of Massachusetts-Amherst Poll; P.R.R.I. (the Public Religion Research Institute); and Reuters-Ipsos. With minor exceptions, the data from all three polls is similar.

Alexander Theodoridis, a political scientist at the University of Massachusetts, summed it up:

About 35 percent of Americans believed in April that Biden’s victory was illegitimate, with another 6 percent saying they are not sure. What can we say about the Americans who do not think Biden’s victory was legitimate? Compared to the overall voting-age population, they are disproportionately white, Republican, older, less educated, more conservative, and more religious (particularly more Protestant and more likely to describe themselves as born again).

P.R.R.I. also tested agreement or disagreement with a view that drives “replacement theory” — “Immigrants are invading our country and replacing our cultural and ethnic background” — and found that 60 percent of Republicans agreed, as do 55 percent of conservatives.

The Reuters/Ipsos data showed that among white Republicans, those without college degrees were far more likely to agree “that the 2020 election was stolen from Donald Trump,” at 69 percent, than white Republicans with college degrees, at a still astonishing 51 percent. The same survey data showed that the level of this belief remained consistently strong (60 percent plus) among Republicans of all ages living in rural, suburban or urban areas.

With that data in mind, let’s explore some of the forces guiding these developments.

In their September 2021 paper, “Exposure to authoritarian values leads to lower positive affect, higher negative affect, and higher meaning in life,” seven scholars — Jake Womick, John Eckelkamp, Sam Luzzo, Sarah J. Ward, S. Glenn Baker, Alison Salamun and Laura A. King — write:

Right-wing authoritarianism played a significant role in the 2016 U.S. presidential election. In subsequent years, there have been numerous ‘alt-right’ demonstrations in the U.S., including the 2017 “Unite the Right” rally in Charlottesville that culminated in a fatal car attack, and the 2021 Capitol Insurrection. In the U.S., between 2016 and 2017 the number of attacks by right-wing organizations quadrupled, outnumbering attacks by Islamic extremist groups, constituting 66 percent of all attacks and plots in the U.S. in 2019, and over 90 percent in 2020.

How does authoritarianism relate to immigration? Womick provided some insight in an email:

Social dominance orientation is a variable that refers to the preference for society to be structured by group-based hierarchies. It’s comprised of two components: group-based dominance, and anti-egalitarianism. Group-based dominance refers to the preference for these hierarchies and the use of force/aggression to maintain them. Anti-egalitarianism refers to maintaining these sorts of hierarchies through other means, such as through systems, legislation, etc.

Womick notes that his own study of the 2016 primaries showed that Trump voters were unique compared with supporters of other Republicans in the strength of their

group-based dominance. I think group-based dominance as the distinguishing factor of this group is highly consistent with what happened at the Capitol. These individuals likely felt that the Trump administration was serving to maintain group-based hierarchies in society from which they felt they benefited. They may have perceived the 2020 election outcome as a threat to that structure. As a result, they turned to aggression in an attempt to affect our political structures in service of the maintenance of those group-based hierarchies.

In their paper, Womick and his co-authors ask

What explains the appeal of authoritarian values? What problem do these values solve for the people who embrace them? The presentation of authoritarian values must have a positive influence on something that is valuable to people.

Their answer is twofold:

Authoritarian messages influence people on two separable levels, the affective level, lowering positive and enhancing negative affect. and the existential level, enhancing meaning in life.

They describe negative affect as “feeling sad, worried, or enraged.” Definitions of “meaning in life,” they write,

include at least three components, significance, the feeling that one’s life and contributions matter to society; purpose, having one’s life driven by the pursuit of valued goals; and coherence or comprehensibility, the perception that one’s life makes sense.

In a separate paper, “The existential function of right‐wing authoritarianism,” Womick, Ward and King, joined by Samantha J. Heintzelman and Brendon Woody, provide more detail:

It may seem ironic that authoritarianism, a belief system that entails sacrifice of personal freedom to a strong leader, would influence the experience of meaning in life through its promotion of feelings of personal significance. Yet, right wing authoritarianism does provide a person with a place in the world, as a loyal follower of a strong leader. In addition, compared to purpose and coherence, knowing with great certainty that one’s life has mattered in a lasting way may be challenging. Handing this challenge over to a strong leader and investment in societal conventions might allow a person to gain a sense of symbolic or vicarious significance.

From another vantage point, Womick and his co-authors continue,

perceptions of insignificance may lead individuals to endorse relatively extreme beliefs, such as authoritarianism, and to follow authoritarian leaders as a way to gain a sense that their lives and their contributions matter.

In the authors’ view, right-wing authoritarianism,

despite its negative social implications, serves an existential meaning function. This existential function is primarily about facilitating the sense that one’s life matters. This existential buffering function is primarily about allowing individuals to maintain a sense that they matter during difficult experiences.

In his email, Womick expanded on his work: “The idea is that perceptions of insignificance can drive a process of seeking out groups, endorsing their ideologies and engaging in behaviors consistent with these.”

These ideologies, Womick continued,

should eventually promote a sense of significance (as insignificance is what drove the person to endorse the ideology in the first place). Endorsing right wing authoritarianism relates to higher meaning in life, and exposing people to authoritarian values causally enhances meaning.

In “Race and Authoritarianism in American Politics,” Christopher Sebastian Parker and Christopher C. Towler, political scientists at the University of Washington and Sacramento State, make a parallel argument:

Confining the definition of authoritarianism to regime rule, however, leaves little room for a discussion of more contemporary authoritarianism, at the micro level. This review shifts focus to an assessment of political psychology’s concept of authoritarianism and how it ultimately drives racism. Ultimately, we believe a tangible connection exists between racism and authoritarianism.

Taking a distinct but complementary approach, David C Barker, Morgan Marietta and Ryan DeTamble, all political scientists, argue in “Intellectualism, Anti-Intellectualism, and Epistemic Hubris in Red and Blue America” that

Epistemic hubris — the expression of unwarranted factual certitude” is “prevalent, bipartisan and associated with both intellectualism (an identity marked by ruminative habits and learning for its own sake) and anti-intellectualism (negative affect toward intellectuals and the intellectual establishment).

The division between intellectualism and anti-intellectualism, they write, is

distinctly partisan: intellectuals are disproportionately Democratic, whereas anti-intellectuals are disproportionately Republican. By implication, we suggest that both the intellectualism of Blue America and the anti-intellectualism of Red America contribute to the intemperance and intransigence that characterize civil society in the United States.

In addition, according to the Barker, Marietta and DeTamble, “The growing intellectualism of Blue America and anti-intellectualism of Red America, respectively, may partially explain the tendency by both to view the other as some blend of dense, duped, and dishonest.”

In an email, Marietta wrote:

The evidence is clear that the hubris driven by intellectual identity and the hubris driven by anti-intellectual affect lower our willingness to compromise with those who seem to lack character and honesty. I suspect the divide in perceptions, but unanimity in hubris, feeds the growing belief that democracy is failing and hence anti-democratic or illiberal policies are justified.

Marietta reports that he and his colleagues

conducted a series of experiments to see what happens when ordinary citizens are faced with others who hold contrary perceptions of reality about things like climate change, or racism, or the effects of immigration. The results are not pretty.

Once they realize that the perceptions of other people are “different from their own,” Marietta continued,

Americans are far less likely to want to be around them in the workplace, and are far more likely to conclude that they are stupid or dishonest. These inclinations are symmetrical, with liberals rejecting conservatives as much (or sometimes more) than conservatives reject liberals. The disdain born of intellectual identity seems to mirror the disdain arising from anti-intellectual affect.

I asked Barker about the role of hubris in contemporary polarization and he wrote back:

The populist Right hates the intellectual Left because they hate being condescended to, they hate what they perceive as their hypersensitivity, and they hate what they view as an anti-American level of femininity (which is for whatever reason associated with intellectualism).

At the same time, Barker continued,

the intellectual Left really does see the G.O.P. as a bunch of deplorable rubes. They absolutely feel superior to them, and they reveal it constantly on Twitter and elsewhere — further riling up the “deplorables.”

Put another way. Barker wrote,

The populist/anti-intellectual Right absolutely believe that the intellectuals are not only out of touch but are also ungodly and sneaky, and therefore think they must be stopped before they ruin America. Meanwhile, the intellectual Left really do believe the Trumpers are racist, sexist, homophobic (and so on) authoritarians who can’t spell and are going to destroy the country if they are not stopped.

What is a critical factor in the development of hubris? Moral conviction, the authors reply: “The most morally committed citizens are also the most epistemically hubristic citizens,” that is, they are most inclined “to express absolute certainty regarding the truth or falsehood” of claims “for which the hard evidence is unclear or contradictory.”

Moral conviction plays a key role in the work of Clifford Workman, a postdoctoral fellow at the Penn Center for Neuroaesthetics at the University of Pennsylvania. Workman, Keith J. Yoder and Jean Decety, write in “The Dark Side of Morality — Neural Mechanisms Underpinning Moral Convictions and Support for Violence” that “People are motivated by shared social values that, when held with moral conviction, can serve as compelling mandates capable of facilitating support for ideological violence.”

Using M.R.I. brain scans, the authors “examined this dark side of morality by identifying specific cognitive and neural mechanisms associated with beliefs about the appropriateness of sociopolitical violence” to determine “the extent to which the engagement of these mechanisms was predicted by moral convictions.”

Their conclusion: “Moral conviction about sociopolitical issues serves to increase their subjective value, overriding natural aversion to interpersonal harm.”

In a striking passage, Workman, Yoder and Decety argue that

While violence is often described as antithetical to sociality, it can be motivated by moral values with the ultimate goal of regulating social relationships. In fact, most violence in the world appears to be rooted in conflict between moral values. Across cultures and history, violence has been used with the intention to sustain order and can be expressed in war, torture, genocide, and homicide.

What, then, Workman and his co-authors ask, “separates accepting ‘deserved’ vigilantism from others and justifying any behavior — rioting, warfare — as means to morally desirable ends?”

Their answer is disconcerting:

People who bomb family planning clinics and those who violently oppose war (e.g., the Weathermen’s protests of the Vietnam War) may have different sociopolitical ideologies, but both are motivated by deep moral convictions.

The authors propose two theories to account for this:

Moral conviction may function by altering the decision-making calculus through the subordination of social prohibitions against violence, thereby requiring less top-down inhibition. This hypothesis holds that moral conviction facilitates support for ideological violence by increasing commitments to a ‘greater good’ even at the expense of others. An alternative hypothesis is that moral conviction increases the subjective value of certain actions, where violence in service of those convictions is underpinned by judgments about one’s moral responsibilities to sociopolitical causes.

In a 2018 paper, “A multilevel social neuroscience perspective on radicalization and terrorism,” Decety, Workman and Robert Pape ask: “Why are some people capable of sympathizing with and/or committing acts of political violence, such as attacks aimed at innocent targets?”

For starters, they note:

Disturbing as it may be, individuals who become radicalized and involve themselves with terrorist organizations are, by and large, ordinary people. These individuals have typically functioning brains; they are not mad but are fanatics. Most are not psychopaths and, with the exception of ‘lone wolf’ terrorists are not especially likely to have psychiatric diagnoses.

Instead, Decety, Pape and Workman contend that

people who are otherwise psychologically typical may develop values and strong emotional ties to narratives and causes and become radicalized. Many individuals who sympathize with and even join terrorist organizations are educated and seemingly rational.

This immediately raises another question: “Are there characteristics that distinguish individuals who merely hold extreme views from those who act on those views by engaging in ideologically motivated violence?”

Decety, Pape and Workman cite a range of findings:

From political psychology:

Individuals who are cognitively inflexible and intolerant of ambiguity may become captive audiences for ideological, political, or religious extremists whose simplistic worldviews gloss over nuance. Indeed, cognitive inflexibility has been positively associated with authoritarian aggression, racism, and ethnocentrism.

From neuroscience:

The radicalism dimension, which included items such as “People should use violence to pursue political goals” was related to increased activation of the ventral striatum and posterior cingulate.

From the study of moral values:

Violations of sacred, moral values may trigger disgust and/or anger responses that may set the stage for ideologically-motivated violence.

The tools of political science, neuroscience, evolutionary theory, psychology, cognitive science and sociology are all necessary to understand the ongoing upheaval in politics — not just in America but also globally.

On Sept. 30, for example, the University of Virginia Center for Politics and Project Home Fire released a survey showing unexpectedly large percentages of voters agreeing with the statement:

“The situation in America is such that I would favor states seceding from the union to form their own separate county.”

Among Trump voters, 52 percent agreed, with 25 percent in strong agreement; among Biden voters, 41 percent agreed, 18 percent strongly.

There are credible reasons to find this alarming."
seacoaster
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Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:36 pm

Re: Conservatives and Liberals

Post by seacoaster »

HCR:

"Today, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) backed down from his obstructionism, agreeing to let the Democrats raise the debt ceiling by a simple majority rather than by the 60 votes they needed when the Republicans kept filibustering their bills.

A quick recap: the issue at stake was whether the United States would default on its debts, which it has never done before. The threat to default was purely a political ploy on the part of the Republicans to try to force the Democrats to abandon their very popular infrastructure measure.

Here’s the backstory: Congress actually originally intended the debt ceiling to enable the government to be flexible in its borrowing. In the era of World War I, when it needed to raise a lot of money fast, Congress stopped passing specific revenue measures and instead set a cap on how much money the government could borrow through all of the different instruments it used.

Now, though, the debt ceiling has become a political cudgel because if it is not raised when Congress spends more than it has the ability to repay, the country will default on its debts. The cap has been raised repeatedly since it was first imposed; indeed, the Republicans raised it three times under former president Donald Trump. Once again, it is too low, and by October 18, the Treasury will be unable to pay our debts.

To meet the nation’s obligations, Congress needs either to raise taxes, which Republicans passionately oppose, or to raise the debt ceiling so the Treasury can borrow more money. Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, who has voted to raise or suspend the debt ceiling 32 times in his career, including the three times under Trump, refused to allow Republicans to vote to raise the debt ceiling.

Although the ceiling needed to be lifted because Trump added $7.8 trillion to the debt (which now stands at about $28 trillion), in part with the huge 2017 tax cuts that went overwhelmingly to the wealthy, McConnell tried to tie the need for more money to the Democrats’ infrastructure plan. This was false: the debt ceiling is not an appropriation; it simply permits the government to borrow money it needs to pay debts already incurred.

But McConnell and the Republicans want to dismantle an active government, not to build it. They hope to convince Americans that Democrats are racking up huge debts—even though it is the Republicans on the hook for today’s crisis—and that they should not be permitted to pass a bill that supports children and working parents and addresses climate change.

The Democrats insisted that the Republicans should join them in raising the ceiling, since they had been instrumental in making it necessary, but McConnell and his caucus refused. Finally, with Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen warning that defaulting would crash the economy and with financial services firm Moody’s Analytics warning that a default would cost up to 6 million jobs, create an unemployment rate of nearly 9%, and wipe out $15 trillion in household wealth, the Democrats tried to pass a measure themselves.

Republicans wouldn’t let them. They filibustered it, trying to force the Democrats to save the country by raising the debt ceiling through a bill that can’t be filibustered, a process called reconciliation, which would make it harder for them to use reconciliation for their own infrastructure bill since Congress can pass only one of that type of reconciliation bill per year.

It was a remarkably cynical ploy, risking the financial health of the country and our standing in the world to make sure that a Republican minority could continue to hamstring what the Democratic majority considers a priority. Republicans have played chicken with government shutdowns since the 1980s, refusing to pass measures to fund the daily operations of the government and thereby stopping paychecks and government operations.

But defaulting on our obligations was a whole new game of brinksmanship. The greatest international asset the U.S. has right now is its financial system. To bring that to its knees to score political points would be interpreted, correctly, as a sign our country is so unstable it must be sidelined.

Midday today, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin highlighted this international doubt when he took the unusual step of weighing in on politics. He warned that a default would “undermine the economic strength on which our national security rests.” Paychecks for 1.4 million active duty military personnel and veterans’ benefits for 2.4 million veterans, as well as payments on military contracts, would stop. Equally dangerous, defaulting on loans would devastate the nation’s international reputation "as a reliable and trustworthy economic and national security partner."

Democrats said they could not guarantee the country would not default, and they were clearly starting to consider getting rid of the filibuster, at least for this particular issue, to enable them to pass a debt ceiling bill by a simple majority rather than by 60 votes.

Then McConnell blinked (although he didn’t cave). In a scorching statement that laid all the blame for the crisis on the Democrats, he offered to “allow” Democrats to use normal procedures—that is, the Republicans won’t filibuster them!—to extend the ceiling into December. Democrats indicate they will take that deal.

There is one major takeaway from this manufactured crisis: McConnell was willing to come right to the verge of burning the nation down to get his way. In the end, he stopped just before the sparks became an inferno, but it was much too close for comfort.

Still, he stopped. Trump and his supporters did not. The former president has been pushing Republicans to use the threat of default to get what they want, and he was not happy that McConnell had backed down. He issued a statement blaming McConnell for “folding” and added “He’s got all of the cards with the debt ceiling, it’s time to play the hand.”

Trump’s willingness to burn down the country is ramping up as the January 6 investigation gets closer to him. Tomorrow is the deadline for four of his aides to respond to subpoenas for documents and testimony from the House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the U.S. Capitol: former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows, deputy chief of staff Dan Scavino, adviser Steve Bannon, and Defense Department aide Kash Patel. Meadows worked to overturn the 2020 election results and was in the thick of things on January 6, Scavino had met with Trump to plot to get congresspeople not to count the certified votes on January 6, Bannon strategized with other officials on January 5 to stop the count, and Patel was part of discussions about the strength of the Capitol Police.

The four are expected to defy the subpoenas at Trump’s insistence, a defiance that suggests they think he and his people are going to regain power. According to Glenn Kirschner, a former U.S. Army prosecutor, contempt of Congress earns a year of prison time; obstruction of Congress, five years; and obstruction of justice, 20 years.

The rest of the former president’s statements today were unhinged attacks on the committee.

A final note for October 6: U.S. District Judge Robert L. Pitman has temporarily blocked enforcement of Texas’s S.B. 8, the so-called “heartbeat” bill prohibiting abortions after six weeks, when most women don’t know they’re pregnant. The Justice Department had sued to stop enforcement of the law. Pitman stopped it on the grounds that it deprived “citizens of a significant and well-established constitutional right.”
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cradleandshoot
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Re: Conservatives and Liberals

Post by cradleandshoot »

seacoaster wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:14 am HCR:

"Today, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) backed down from his obstructionism, agreeing to let the Democrats raise the debt ceiling by a simple majority rather than by the 60 votes they needed when the Republicans kept filibustering their bills.

A quick recap: the issue at stake was whether the United States would default on its debts, which it has never done before. The threat to default was purely a political ploy on the part of the Republicans to try to force the Democrats to abandon their very popular infrastructure measure.

Here’s the backstory: Congress actually originally intended the debt ceiling to enable the government to be flexible in its borrowing. In the era of World War I, when it needed to raise a lot of money fast, Congress stopped passing specific revenue measures and instead set a cap on how much money the government could borrow through all of the different instruments it used.

Now, though, the debt ceiling has become a political cudgel because if it is not raised when Congress spends more than it has the ability to repay, the country will default on its debts. The cap has been raised repeatedly since it was first imposed; indeed, the Republicans raised it three times under former president Donald Trump. Once again, it is too low, and by October 18, the Treasury will be unable to pay our debts.

To meet the nation’s obligations, Congress needs either to raise taxes, which Republicans passionately oppose, or to raise the debt ceiling so the Treasury can borrow more money. Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, who has voted to raise or suspend the debt ceiling 32 times in his career, including the three times under Trump, refused to allow Republicans to vote to raise the debt ceiling.

Although the ceiling needed to be lifted because Trump added $7.8 trillion to the debt (which now stands at about $28 trillion), in part with the huge 2017 tax cuts that went overwhelmingly to the wealthy, McConnell tried to tie the need for more money to the Democrats’ infrastructure plan. This was false: the debt ceiling is not an appropriation; it simply permits the government to borrow money it needs to pay debts already incurred.

But McConnell and the Republicans want to dismantle an active government, not to build it. They hope to convince Americans that Democrats are racking up huge debts—even though it is the Republicans on the hook for today’s crisis—and that they should not be permitted to pass a bill that supports children and working parents and addresses climate change.

The Democrats insisted that the Republicans should join them in raising the ceiling, since they had been instrumental in making it necessary, but McConnell and his caucus refused. Finally, with Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen warning that defaulting would crash the economy and with financial services firm Moody’s Analytics warning that a default would cost up to 6 million jobs, create an unemployment rate of nearly 9%, and wipe out $15 trillion in household wealth, the Democrats tried to pass a measure themselves.

Republicans wouldn’t let them. They filibustered it, trying to force the Democrats to save the country by raising the debt ceiling through a bill that can’t be filibustered, a process called reconciliation, which would make it harder for them to use reconciliation for their own infrastructure bill since Congress can pass only one of that type of reconciliation bill per year.

It was a remarkably cynical ploy, risking the financial health of the country and our standing in the world to make sure that a Republican minority could continue to hamstring what the Democratic majority considers a priority. Republicans have played chicken with government shutdowns since the 1980s, refusing to pass measures to fund the daily operations of the government and thereby stopping paychecks and government operations.

But defaulting on our obligations was a whole new game of brinksmanship. The greatest international asset the U.S. has right now is its financial system. To bring that to its knees to score political points would be interpreted, correctly, as a sign our country is so unstable it must be sidelined.

Midday today, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin highlighted this international doubt when he took the unusual step of weighing in on politics. He warned that a default would “undermine the economic strength on which our national security rests.” Paychecks for 1.4 million active duty military personnel and veterans’ benefits for 2.4 million veterans, as well as payments on military contracts, would stop. Equally dangerous, defaulting on loans would devastate the nation’s international reputation "as a reliable and trustworthy economic and national security partner."

Democrats said they could not guarantee the country would not default, and they were clearly starting to consider getting rid of the filibuster, at least for this particular issue, to enable them to pass a debt ceiling bill by a simple majority rather than by 60 votes.

Then McConnell blinked (although he didn’t cave). In a scorching statement that laid all the blame for the crisis on the Democrats, he offered to “allow” Democrats to use normal procedures—that is, the Republicans won’t filibuster them!—to extend the ceiling into December. Democrats indicate they will take that deal.

There is one major takeaway from this manufactured crisis: McConnell was willing to come right to the verge of burning the nation down to get his way. In the end, he stopped just before the sparks became an inferno, but it was much too close for comfort.

Still, he stopped. Trump and his supporters did not. The former president has been pushing Republicans to use the threat of default to get what they want, and he was not happy that McConnell had backed down. He issued a statement blaming McConnell for “folding” and added “He’s got all of the cards with the debt ceiling, it’s time to play the hand.”

Trump’s willingness to burn down the country is ramping up as the January 6 investigation gets closer to him. Tomorrow is the deadline for four of his aides to respond to subpoenas for documents and testimony from the House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the U.S. Capitol: former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows, deputy chief of staff Dan Scavino, adviser Steve Bannon, and Defense Department aide Kash Patel. Meadows worked to overturn the 2020 election results and was in the thick of things on January 6, Scavino had met with Trump to plot to get congresspeople not to count the certified votes on January 6, Bannon strategized with other officials on January 5 to stop the count, and Patel was part of discussions about the strength of the Capitol Police.

The four are expected to defy the subpoenas at Trump’s insistence, a defiance that suggests they think he and his people are going to regain power. According to Glenn Kirschner, a former U.S. Army prosecutor, contempt of Congress earns a year of prison time; obstruction of Congress, five years; and obstruction of justice, 20 years.

The rest of the former president’s statements today were unhinged attacks on the committee.

A final note for October 6: U.S. District Judge Robert L. Pitman has temporarily blocked enforcement of Texas’s S.B. 8, the so-called “heartbeat” bill prohibiting abortions after six weeks, when most women don’t know they’re pregnant. The Justice Department had sued to stop enforcement of the law. Pitman stopped it on the grounds that it deprived “citizens of a significant and well-established constitutional right.”
HCR... time to fast forward. Why can't you post some links from Leonard Pitts? I read his column in our FLP fish wrapper every Sunday. At least his opinions are imbedded with FLP passion. HCR is the equivalent of syrup of ipecac. Her words are perfect for inducing vomiting.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Bob Ross:
seacoaster
Posts: 8866
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:36 pm

Re: Conservatives and Liberals

Post by seacoaster »

cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:40 am
seacoaster wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:14 am HCR:

"Today, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) backed down from his obstructionism, agreeing to let the Democrats raise the debt ceiling by a simple majority rather than by the 60 votes they needed when the Republicans kept filibustering their bills.

A quick recap: the issue at stake was whether the United States would default on its debts, which it has never done before. The threat to default was purely a political ploy on the part of the Republicans to try to force the Democrats to abandon their very popular infrastructure measure.

Here’s the backstory: Congress actually originally intended the debt ceiling to enable the government to be flexible in its borrowing. In the era of World War I, when it needed to raise a lot of money fast, Congress stopped passing specific revenue measures and instead set a cap on how much money the government could borrow through all of the different instruments it used.

Now, though, the debt ceiling has become a political cudgel because if it is not raised when Congress spends more than it has the ability to repay, the country will default on its debts. The cap has been raised repeatedly since it was first imposed; indeed, the Republicans raised it three times under former president Donald Trump. Once again, it is too low, and by October 18, the Treasury will be unable to pay our debts.

To meet the nation’s obligations, Congress needs either to raise taxes, which Republicans passionately oppose, or to raise the debt ceiling so the Treasury can borrow more money. Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, who has voted to raise or suspend the debt ceiling 32 times in his career, including the three times under Trump, refused to allow Republicans to vote to raise the debt ceiling.

Although the ceiling needed to be lifted because Trump added $7.8 trillion to the debt (which now stands at about $28 trillion), in part with the huge 2017 tax cuts that went overwhelmingly to the wealthy, McConnell tried to tie the need for more money to the Democrats’ infrastructure plan. This was false: the debt ceiling is not an appropriation; it simply permits the government to borrow money it needs to pay debts already incurred.

But McConnell and the Republicans want to dismantle an active government, not to build it. They hope to convince Americans that Democrats are racking up huge debts—even though it is the Republicans on the hook for today’s crisis—and that they should not be permitted to pass a bill that supports children and working parents and addresses climate change.

The Democrats insisted that the Republicans should join them in raising the ceiling, since they had been instrumental in making it necessary, but McConnell and his caucus refused. Finally, with Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen warning that defaulting would crash the economy and with financial services firm Moody’s Analytics warning that a default would cost up to 6 million jobs, create an unemployment rate of nearly 9%, and wipe out $15 trillion in household wealth, the Democrats tried to pass a measure themselves.

Republicans wouldn’t let them. They filibustered it, trying to force the Democrats to save the country by raising the debt ceiling through a bill that can’t be filibustered, a process called reconciliation, which would make it harder for them to use reconciliation for their own infrastructure bill since Congress can pass only one of that type of reconciliation bill per year.

It was a remarkably cynical ploy, risking the financial health of the country and our standing in the world to make sure that a Republican minority could continue to hamstring what the Democratic majority considers a priority. Republicans have played chicken with government shutdowns since the 1980s, refusing to pass measures to fund the daily operations of the government and thereby stopping paychecks and government operations.

But defaulting on our obligations was a whole new game of brinksmanship. The greatest international asset the U.S. has right now is its financial system. To bring that to its knees to score political points would be interpreted, correctly, as a sign our country is so unstable it must be sidelined.

Midday today, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin highlighted this international doubt when he took the unusual step of weighing in on politics. He warned that a default would “undermine the economic strength on which our national security rests.” Paychecks for 1.4 million active duty military personnel and veterans’ benefits for 2.4 million veterans, as well as payments on military contracts, would stop. Equally dangerous, defaulting on loans would devastate the nation’s international reputation "as a reliable and trustworthy economic and national security partner."

Democrats said they could not guarantee the country would not default, and they were clearly starting to consider getting rid of the filibuster, at least for this particular issue, to enable them to pass a debt ceiling bill by a simple majority rather than by 60 votes.

Then McConnell blinked (although he didn’t cave). In a scorching statement that laid all the blame for the crisis on the Democrats, he offered to “allow” Democrats to use normal procedures—that is, the Republicans won’t filibuster them!—to extend the ceiling into December. Democrats indicate they will take that deal.

There is one major takeaway from this manufactured crisis: McConnell was willing to come right to the verge of burning the nation down to get his way. In the end, he stopped just before the sparks became an inferno, but it was much too close for comfort.

Still, he stopped. Trump and his supporters did not. The former president has been pushing Republicans to use the threat of default to get what they want, and he was not happy that McConnell had backed down. He issued a statement blaming McConnell for “folding” and added “He’s got all of the cards with the debt ceiling, it’s time to play the hand.”

Trump’s willingness to burn down the country is ramping up as the January 6 investigation gets closer to him. Tomorrow is the deadline for four of his aides to respond to subpoenas for documents and testimony from the House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the U.S. Capitol: former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows, deputy chief of staff Dan Scavino, adviser Steve Bannon, and Defense Department aide Kash Patel. Meadows worked to overturn the 2020 election results and was in the thick of things on January 6, Scavino had met with Trump to plot to get congresspeople not to count the certified votes on January 6, Bannon strategized with other officials on January 5 to stop the count, and Patel was part of discussions about the strength of the Capitol Police.

The four are expected to defy the subpoenas at Trump’s insistence, a defiance that suggests they think he and his people are going to regain power. According to Glenn Kirschner, a former U.S. Army prosecutor, contempt of Congress earns a year of prison time; obstruction of Congress, five years; and obstruction of justice, 20 years.

The rest of the former president’s statements today were unhinged attacks on the committee.

A final note for October 6: U.S. District Judge Robert L. Pitman has temporarily blocked enforcement of Texas’s S.B. 8, the so-called “heartbeat” bill prohibiting abortions after six weeks, when most women don’t know they’re pregnant. The Justice Department had sued to stop enforcement of the law. Pitman stopped it on the grounds that it deprived “citizens of a significant and well-established constitutional right.”
HCR... time to fast forward. Why can't you post some links from Leonard Pitts? I read his column in our FLP fish wrapper every Sunday. At least his opinions are imbedded with FLP passion. HCR is the equivalent of syrup of ipecac. Her words are perfect for inducing vomiting.
I realize that I am not posting these things -- any of them, I assume -- for you. You've made clear that your current, deeply-fixed, angry, grievance-filled willingness to give up on the country is the way it is. Just move on. No problem.
User avatar
cradleandshoot
Posts: 15537
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Re: Conservatives and Liberals

Post by cradleandshoot »

seacoaster wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:58 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:40 am
seacoaster wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:14 am HCR:

"Today, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) backed down from his obstructionism, agreeing to let the Democrats raise the debt ceiling by a simple majority rather than by the 60 votes they needed when the Republicans kept filibustering their bills.

A quick recap: the issue at stake was whether the United States would default on its debts, which it has never done before. The threat to default was purely a political ploy on the part of the Republicans to try to force the Democrats to abandon their very popular infrastructure measure.

Here’s the backstory: Congress actually originally intended the debt ceiling to enable the government to be flexible in its borrowing. In the era of World War I, when it needed to raise a lot of money fast, Congress stopped passing specific revenue measures and instead set a cap on how much money the government could borrow through all of the different instruments it used.

Now, though, the debt ceiling has become a political cudgel because if it is not raised when Congress spends more than it has the ability to repay, the country will default on its debts. The cap has been raised repeatedly since it was first imposed; indeed, the Republicans raised it three times under former president Donald Trump. Once again, it is too low, and by October 18, the Treasury will be unable to pay our debts.

To meet the nation’s obligations, Congress needs either to raise taxes, which Republicans passionately oppose, or to raise the debt ceiling so the Treasury can borrow more money. Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, who has voted to raise or suspend the debt ceiling 32 times in his career, including the three times under Trump, refused to allow Republicans to vote to raise the debt ceiling.

Although the ceiling needed to be lifted because Trump added $7.8 trillion to the debt (which now stands at about $28 trillion), in part with the huge 2017 tax cuts that went overwhelmingly to the wealthy, McConnell tried to tie the need for more money to the Democrats’ infrastructure plan. This was false: the debt ceiling is not an appropriation; it simply permits the government to borrow money it needs to pay debts already incurred.

But McConnell and the Republicans want to dismantle an active government, not to build it. They hope to convince Americans that Democrats are racking up huge debts—even though it is the Republicans on the hook for today’s crisis—and that they should not be permitted to pass a bill that supports children and working parents and addresses climate change.

The Democrats insisted that the Republicans should join them in raising the ceiling, since they had been instrumental in making it necessary, but McConnell and his caucus refused. Finally, with Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen warning that defaulting would crash the economy and with financial services firm Moody’s Analytics warning that a default would cost up to 6 million jobs, create an unemployment rate of nearly 9%, and wipe out $15 trillion in household wealth, the Democrats tried to pass a measure themselves.

Republicans wouldn’t let them. They filibustered it, trying to force the Democrats to save the country by raising the debt ceiling through a bill that can’t be filibustered, a process called reconciliation, which would make it harder for them to use reconciliation for their own infrastructure bill since Congress can pass only one of that type of reconciliation bill per year.

It was a remarkably cynical ploy, risking the financial health of the country and our standing in the world to make sure that a Republican minority could continue to hamstring what the Democratic majority considers a priority. Republicans have played chicken with government shutdowns since the 1980s, refusing to pass measures to fund the daily operations of the government and thereby stopping paychecks and government operations.

But defaulting on our obligations was a whole new game of brinksmanship. The greatest international asset the U.S. has right now is its financial system. To bring that to its knees to score political points would be interpreted, correctly, as a sign our country is so unstable it must be sidelined.

Midday today, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin highlighted this international doubt when he took the unusual step of weighing in on politics. He warned that a default would “undermine the economic strength on which our national security rests.” Paychecks for 1.4 million active duty military personnel and veterans’ benefits for 2.4 million veterans, as well as payments on military contracts, would stop. Equally dangerous, defaulting on loans would devastate the nation’s international reputation "as a reliable and trustworthy economic and national security partner."

Democrats said they could not guarantee the country would not default, and they were clearly starting to consider getting rid of the filibuster, at least for this particular issue, to enable them to pass a debt ceiling bill by a simple majority rather than by 60 votes.

Then McConnell blinked (although he didn’t cave). In a scorching statement that laid all the blame for the crisis on the Democrats, he offered to “allow” Democrats to use normal procedures—that is, the Republicans won’t filibuster them!—to extend the ceiling into December. Democrats indicate they will take that deal.

There is one major takeaway from this manufactured crisis: McConnell was willing to come right to the verge of burning the nation down to get his way. In the end, he stopped just before the sparks became an inferno, but it was much too close for comfort.

Still, he stopped. Trump and his supporters did not. The former president has been pushing Republicans to use the threat of default to get what they want, and he was not happy that McConnell had backed down. He issued a statement blaming McConnell for “folding” and added “He’s got all of the cards with the debt ceiling, it’s time to play the hand.”

Trump’s willingness to burn down the country is ramping up as the January 6 investigation gets closer to him. Tomorrow is the deadline for four of his aides to respond to subpoenas for documents and testimony from the House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the U.S. Capitol: former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows, deputy chief of staff Dan Scavino, adviser Steve Bannon, and Defense Department aide Kash Patel. Meadows worked to overturn the 2020 election results and was in the thick of things on January 6, Scavino had met with Trump to plot to get congresspeople not to count the certified votes on January 6, Bannon strategized with other officials on January 5 to stop the count, and Patel was part of discussions about the strength of the Capitol Police.

The four are expected to defy the subpoenas at Trump’s insistence, a defiance that suggests they think he and his people are going to regain power. According to Glenn Kirschner, a former U.S. Army prosecutor, contempt of Congress earns a year of prison time; obstruction of Congress, five years; and obstruction of justice, 20 years.

The rest of the former president’s statements today were unhinged attacks on the committee.

A final note for October 6: U.S. District Judge Robert L. Pitman has temporarily blocked enforcement of Texas’s S.B. 8, the so-called “heartbeat” bill prohibiting abortions after six weeks, when most women don’t know they’re pregnant. The Justice Department had sued to stop enforcement of the law. Pitman stopped it on the grounds that it deprived “citizens of a significant and well-established constitutional right.”
HCR... time to fast forward. Why can't you post some links from Leonard Pitts? I read his column in our FLP fish wrapper every Sunday. At least his opinions are imbedded with FLP passion. HCR is the equivalent of syrup of ipecac. Her words are perfect for inducing vomiting.
I realize that I am not posting these things -- any of them, I assume -- for you. You've made clear that your current, deeply-fixed, angry, grievance-filled willingness to give up on the country is the way it is. Just move on. No problem.
No anger on my end. I just know FLP bullchit when I read it. It took me awhile but it finally clicked in my brain. HCR is a liberals version of George Will. They both blather their ideologies in the same arrogant condescending manner. An elitist snob comes across as an elitist snob no matter your party loyalty. FTR, I would fast forward through any Republican tripe that George Will composes. He is as repugnant to me as is HCR.
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23841
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: Conservatives and Liberals

Post by Farfromgeneva »

PizzaSnake wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:19 am
a fan wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:02 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:13 pm
a fan wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:50 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:31 pm You waived off any definition of ownership before but there’s a million ways to own something.
Not waiving it off at all...and what YouthA was saying was that UVa doesn't receive much funding from State coffers here in 2021. So what? Who owns the University of Virginia? The State of Virginia, no? So: the government. The definition holds.

As for ownership.....there is nothing keeping governments both here and abroad from investing in, say, Google.

Does that mean Google is socialist? I'd venture to guess, you'd say no. Why? Because Google is managed by private hands....the .gov isn't running it.
Who’s in control of a company or investment vehicle, the agents or the equity owners? The Managing member GP or the LP that owns 95%?

Is GIC or Apollo the owner of some major investment CRE asset?

Is Saudi Arabia, who’s by far the biggest investor in SoftBank in control of WeWork or any SoftBank investments?

What about the GSEs? Fannie, Freddie. Very different than VA/HUD. What about OPIC? Or the Federal Home Loan Banks?

It’s a well known fact that the govt of Cali has elected to keep PG&E afloat when it could've (maybe should’ve) been deemed insolvent like 12x over the pst 30yrs but it’s got private stock and yet is a play toy for the policies to be directed that the politicians want.

What about the Chicago Skyway or Dulles Toll Road?

https://ijglobal.com/articles/99720/chi ... isition-us

https://www.atlasarteria.com/stores/_sh ... 04.pdf?v=6
For the above, the answer is: if the government owns AND manages any of those entities listed? That's socialism.

So for the above---which of the CEO's is collecting a Government paycheck...which government, and what's their title within said government?

If you can't give me a name and title? That's not socialism.

It's a simple definition. What you're talking about are things like handouts, bailouts, subsidies, tax breaks, etc. None of which have anything to do with socialism.

Dulles Toll Road has been discussed before. Dulles Greenway section is a private road----owned by a private corporation. So that's NOT socialism currently. It was SUPPOSED to move to management by the State of VA in 2036. But it would still be privately owned....again, NOT socialism.
" Dulles Greenway section is a private road----owned by a private corporation."

And yet it is regulated by state driving regulations enforced by public law enforcement officers. Hmm.

This public-private abomination evidenced in the HOT lanes adjacent to the Capital Beltway and the "improvements" to the Pentagon Expressway has to end. The most expensive and difficult portion of road building is obtaining the continuous right-of-way (look at the Grand Prix section of the Beltway in Md near the LDS Disneyland). Private interests who pony up a little infrastructure rehabilitation cash in return for right to collect tolls are parasitic bottom-feeders. F'em, it is a public right-of-way, not private. Part of the reason the Greenway has problems is that the owners had to pay for the right-of-way, and that there is not much justification for the absurd rates given the road doesn't really go anywhere. It is an expensive commuting tool for further development in the Piedmont along 15 and the Rt.7 area beyond Leesburg. But hey, that's the Commonwealth for you, public outlay for private gain.
I used to be one of those Grand Prix drivers if you’re talking silver spring ish to like Glen Allen especially around the river rd, conn Ave and Wisconsin exits in the low mid 30s.

My point was there’s some many paths between the definition insisted upon when it comes to what ownership means as to make and higher order definition of socialism not cut and dry by any stretch.

I think the skyway has been far more successful the Dulles which is why I like to point them both out. That was, however the citizens of Il selling out the future of their existing public good asset to bring in desperately needed cash to plug holes from other graft and profligacy.

I’ve take Dulles 2-3x usually to the town center from DC I think. More familiar with it from doing work for and on macquarie’s infrastructure assets and portfolio.
Harvard University, out
University of Utah, in

I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

(Afan jealous he didn’t do this first)
User avatar
dislaxxic
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Re: Conservatives and Liberals

Post by dislaxxic »

cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:13 pmFTR, I would fast forward through any Republican tripe that George Will composes. He is as repugnant to me as is HCR.
Interesting, given how repulsed Will has been by Trumpism.

..
"The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog." - Calvin, to Hobbes
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23841
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: Conservatives and Liberals

Post by Farfromgeneva »

dislaxxic wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:24 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:13 pmFTR, I would fast forward through any Republican tripe that George Will composes. He is as repugnant to me as is HCR.
Interesting, given how repulsed Will has been by Trumpism.

..
I’m a huge George Will fan but he’s got too much of that edumacation for cradle
Harvard University, out
University of Utah, in

I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

(Afan jealous he didn’t do this first)
User avatar
cradleandshoot
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Re: Conservatives and Liberals

Post by cradleandshoot »

dislaxxic wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:24 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:13 pmFTR, I would fast forward through any Republican tripe that George Will composes. He is as repugnant to me as is HCR.
Interesting, given how repulsed Will has been by Trumpism.

..
That surprises you? My golden rule is never trust an elitist dweeb that wears a bow tie. Will reminds me of a certain poster on this forum. Those die hard RINOs are the best friends the far left could ever hope for. I wonder how Wills portfolio did under 4 years of Trump? What they say in public has zippo to do with the glee they feel when they are making money. I would agree with Will in one regard. Trump is not a republican nor is he a conservative. Trump is the rodeo clown who pissed of all the anal retentive mainstream Republicans. All he had to do was not play the game of politics by the established rules
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Bob Ross:
User avatar
cradleandshoot
Posts: 15537
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Re: Conservatives and Liberals

Post by cradleandshoot »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:29 pm
dislaxxic wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:24 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:13 pmFTR, I would fast forward through any Republican tripe that George Will composes. He is as repugnant to me as is HCR.
Interesting, given how repulsed Will has been by Trumpism.

..
I’m a huge George Will fan but he’s got too much of that edumacation for cradle
You wear cute colorful bowties too? Will is an arrogant snob. It does not surprise me your a fan. I'm educated enough to understand the words of an elitist snob. Garth Brooks said it best.. I got friends in low places. I wouldn't want it any other way. Nobody nibbles on Beluga caviar where I come from. :D
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Bob Ross:
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23841
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: Conservatives and Liberals

Post by Farfromgeneva »

cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:44 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:29 pm
dislaxxic wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:24 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:13 pmFTR, I would fast forward through any Republican tripe that George Will composes. He is as repugnant to me as is HCR.
Interesting, given how repulsed Will has been by Trumpism.

..
I’m a huge George Will fan but he’s got too much of that edumacation for cradle
You wear cute colorful bowties too? Will is an arrogant snob. It does not surprise me your a fan. I'm educated enough to understand the words of an elitist snob. Garth Brooks said it best.. I got friends in low places. I wouldn't want it any other way. Nobody nibbles on Beluga caviar where I come from. :D
But not educated enough to understand the words of an educated person. Sadly that’s by choice because it doesn’t require a formal education just listening and being open minded, maybe some independent reading and getting outside your small world.

I eat barbecue and do my own yardwork and most importantly was molded and formed in the same place as you. No matter in that I was open to the larger world and you rejected it. Had no interest in being a bitter fat man with a mustache with kielbasa grease in it while rocking a Bills starter jacket and resenting everyone else while watching my community decline as I crap ok it and do nothing to make it better.
Harvard University, out
University of Utah, in

I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

(Afan jealous he didn’t do this first)
JoeMauer89
Posts: 2009
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:39 pm

Re: Conservatives and Liberals

Post by JoeMauer89 »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:46 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:44 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:29 pm
dislaxxic wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:24 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:13 pmFTR, I would fast forward through any Republican tripe that George Will composes. He is as repugnant to me as is HCR.
Interesting, given how repulsed Will has been by Trumpism.

..
I’m a huge George Will fan but he’s got too much of that edumacation for cradle
You wear cute colorful bowties too? Will is an arrogant snob. It does not surprise me your a fan. I'm educated enough to understand the words of an elitist snob. Garth Brooks said it best.. I got friends in low places. I wouldn't want it any other way. Nobody nibbles on Beluga caviar where I come from. :D
But not educated enough to understand the words of an educated person. Sadly that’s by choice because it doesn’t require a formal education just listening and being open minded, maybe some independent reading and getting outside your small world.

I eat barbecue and do my own yardwork and most importantly was molded and formed in the same place as you. No matter in that I was open to the larger world and you rejected it. Had no interest in being a bitter fat man with a mustache with kielbasa grease in it while rocking a Bills starter jacket and resenting everyone else while watching my community decline as I crap ok it and do nothing to make it better.
FFG,
This is where you are headed, watch the first part of the clip. Cradle has many enlightening things to say. Yardwork has nothing to do with making you open-minded. You are falsely stereotyping someone who is from the same general area you came from. You're all over the place. :roll: :roll:

Joe
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23841
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: Conservatives and Liberals

Post by Farfromgeneva »

JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:54 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:46 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:44 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:29 pm
dislaxxic wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:24 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:13 pmFTR, I would fast forward through any Republican tripe that George Will composes. He is as repugnant to me as is HCR.
Interesting, given how repulsed Will has been by Trumpism.

..
I’m a huge George Will fan but he’s got too much of that edumacation for cradle
You wear cute colorful bowties too? Will is an arrogant snob. It does not surprise me your a fan. I'm educated enough to understand the words of an elitist snob. Garth Brooks said it best.. I got friends in low places. I wouldn't want it any other way. Nobody nibbles on Beluga caviar where I come from. :D
But not educated enough to understand the words of an educated person. Sadly that’s by choice because it doesn’t require a formal education just listening and being open minded, maybe some independent reading and getting outside your small world.

I eat barbecue and do my own yardwork and most importantly was molded and formed in the same place as you. No matter in that I was open to the larger world and you rejected it. Had no interest in being a bitter fat man with a mustache with kielbasa grease in it while rocking a Bills starter jacket and resenting everyone else while watching my community decline as I crap ok it and do nothing to make it better.
FFG,
This is where you are headed, watch the first part of the clip. Cradle has many enlightening things to say. Yardwork has nothing to do with making you open-minded. You are falsely stereotyping someone who is from the same general area you came from. You're all over the place. :roll: :roll:

Joe
Thanks for educating me…follow along more closely and work on context and reading comprehension. The salt of the earth, school of hard knocks facade doesn’t work on me I’ve got plenty of that to go along with the formal and codified types of education. In this other world, they’re separate and commit be in the same person.

A mind is a terrible thing to develop..without help
Harvard University, out
University of Utah, in

I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

(Afan jealous he didn’t do this first)
JoeMauer89
Posts: 2009
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:39 pm

Re: Conservatives and Liberals

Post by JoeMauer89 »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:59 pm
JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:54 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:46 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:44 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:29 pm
dislaxxic wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:24 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:13 pmFTR, I would fast forward through any Republican tripe that George Will composes. He is as repugnant to me as is HCR.
Interesting, given how repulsed Will has been by Trumpism.

..
I’m a huge George Will fan but he’s got too much of that edumacation for cradle
You wear cute colorful bowties too? Will is an arrogant snob. It does not surprise me your a fan. I'm educated enough to understand the words of an elitist snob. Garth Brooks said it best.. I got friends in low places. I wouldn't want it any other way. Nobody nibbles on Beluga caviar where I come from. :D
But not educated enough to understand the words of an educated person. Sadly that’s by choice because it doesn’t require a formal education just listening and being open minded, maybe some independent reading and getting outside your small world.

I eat barbecue and do my own yardwork and most importantly was molded and formed in the same place as you. No matter in that I was open to the larger world and you rejected it. Had no interest in being a bitter fat man with a mustache with kielbasa grease in it while rocking a Bills starter jacket and resenting everyone else while watching my community decline as I crap ok it and do nothing to make it better.
FFG,
This is where you are headed, watch the first part of the clip. Cradle has many enlightening things to say. Yardwork has nothing to do with making you open-minded. You are falsely stereotyping someone who is from the same general area you came from. You're all over the place. :roll: :roll:

Joe
Thanks for educating me…follow along more closely and work on context and reading comprehension. The salt of the earth, school of hard knocks facade doesn’t work on me I’ve got plenty of that to go along with the formal and codified types of education. In this other world, they’re separate and commit be in the same person.

A mind is a terrible thing to develop..without help
I'm not sure what you mean "work on me". Stop taking everything as an attack or a personal affront. Not everybody is out to get you, even if that is your primary source of motivation. That was my point. Moving on...

Joe
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23841
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: Conservatives and Liberals

Post by Farfromgeneva »

JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:26 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:59 pm
JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:54 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:46 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:44 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:29 pm
dislaxxic wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:24 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:13 pmFTR, I would fast forward through any Republican tripe that George Will composes. He is as repugnant to me as is HCR.
Interesting, given how repulsed Will has been by Trumpism.

..
I’m a huge George Will fan but he’s got too much of that edumacation for cradle
You wear cute colorful bowties too? Will is an arrogant snob. It does not surprise me your a fan. I'm educated enough to understand the words of an elitist snob. Garth Brooks said it best.. I got friends in low places. I wouldn't want it any other way. Nobody nibbles on Beluga caviar where I come from. :D
But not educated enough to understand the words of an educated person. Sadly that’s by choice because it doesn’t require a formal education just listening and being open minded, maybe some independent reading and getting outside your small world.

I eat barbecue and do my own yardwork and most importantly was molded and formed in the same place as you. No matter in that I was open to the larger world and you rejected it. Had no interest in being a bitter fat man with a mustache with kielbasa grease in it while rocking a Bills starter jacket and resenting everyone else while watching my community decline as I crap ok it and do nothing to make it better.
FFG,
This is where you are headed, watch the first part of the clip. Cradle has many enlightening things to say. Yardwork has nothing to do with making you open-minded. You are falsely stereotyping someone who is from the same general area you came from. You're all over the place. :roll: :roll:

Joe
Thanks for educating me…follow along more closely and work on context and reading comprehension. The salt of the earth, school of hard knocks facade doesn’t work on me I’ve got plenty of that to go along with the formal and codified types of education. In this other world, they’re separate and commit be in the same person.

A mind is a terrible thing to develop..without help
I'm not sure what you mean "work on me". Stop taking everything as an attack or a personal affront. Not everybody is out to get you, even if that is your primary source of motivation. That was my point. Moving on...

Joe
Yeah you don’t get it, totally out of your element. There’s context and background that you are either incapable of or refuse to incorporate into your approach here except when convenient to bashing someone. Very narrow minded. It’s cool you are stepping into an conversation and interjecting without following so I don’t expect any more Donny.
Harvard University, out
University of Utah, in

I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

(Afan jealous he didn’t do this first)
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