All things CoronaVirus

[Bart]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/29/us/novan ... index.html

Denny’s might be hiring.

Yep. Fork em. Not gonna effect patient care. Lets just call out the National Guard to cover for them.

[wgdsr]

Even the seat belt and helmet requirements have a societal component to them. Society pays for those not complying in potential unpaid medical bills and resource utilization.

correct, thus justifying the legal mandate.

There is, however, a bit of a slippery slope as to how much cost one's individual choices cost the rest of the public before we decide it's worth restricting those individual choices. And, of course, who actually makes these decisions of what's to the benefit of the public.

Behavioral science tells us that humans have a very difficult time assessing and valuing the costs of our actions, both in the future, and on others. For our own part, we all the time sacrifice long term benefit for short term gratification of impulses. And we regularly 'pollute' if no rule requiring otherwise.

So, as a society we work through government to help mediate these tradeoffs better. Of course, government doesn't get it right all the time either, being made up of humans making various such tradeoff decisions with the same sorts of behavioral handicaps of simply being human.

But Covid is a no-brainer.
Clear and large costs to others.

I don’t like the social cost argument unless you can draw a pretty straight line. To me Covid is obvious. Seat belts less so. I’m fact I ended up writing a strong argument against them as it modifies behavior such that other reckless activities such as speeding and assuming others behavior because of seatbelts (think Monte Carlo simulation/game theory)could be more expensive to society.

The global medical cost argument to ACA has always bothered me as the primary driving reason to justify it. Felt lazy and specious compared with making a better argument that we just need damn reform and better safety nets for more. Always the short cut that comes with costs, frictions and rent seeking activities at the expense of all over the more transparent and fair policy.

And someone will knee jerk respond “but they blocked everything so it was all fair to get it done”. Subsequently ignore when they and their cause gets bent over by the other side with the same tactics and laziness and now we’ve got two bad policies that cost us all a lot more.

so are you good with whatever the local b.o.e. says for online learning, shut it down, knowing what you know? at whatever dividing line they see fit to warrant shutting it down?

Connect the dots for me? I think a localized basically completely indoor closed group setting with children is not the same thing unless I’m missing something it seems like you’re calling the two
The same?

actually, my question was exclusive of the seatbelt argument. asked as you said covid is obvious. would you be ok with any and all regs as they come down on school?
maybe not like them if you don't agree @ that point in time but thems the rules, or potentially throw a cherry bomb at the next meeting, or something in between?

[wgdsr]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/29/us/novan ... index.html

Denny’s might be hiring.

Yep. Fork em. Not gonna effect patient care. Lets just call out the National Guard to cover for them.

neighborhood of 10% seems like a lot.

[ggait]

I'm going to feel better on my next trip to the hospital knowing that folks like these two will no longer be there.

Requesting a religious exemption for being Catholic? Saying the Pope is a hyprocrite and not following the Bible because he got vaxed? Think the Covid death numbers are over-stated. Not convinced the vaccines work because of so much suppressed science globally. GMAFB.

So forking stupid, stubborn and partisan blinded that they probably should get canned even if they would get the shot. Just unfit for the job imo.

Talk about being sheep! They refuse to be "brainwashed" by the FDA, but gladly suck up and believe unsubstantiated rando stuff that pops up on their Facebook feed.

Bless their hearts.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2021/09/2 ... kg-vpx.cnn

[tech37]

An NBA Star and New York's Governor Show That Liberal COVID Discourse is Devoid of Science

https://greenwald.substack.com/p/an-nba ... vernor-8d1

Just the liberals? C'mon....there is much discourse on all sides devoid of science.

yep, you're right Bart. click bait?...

I think the point is, it is liberals involved with shaming. Just read this board.

Tech, for heaven's sake----what do you think anti-vaxxers call those of us who have been vaxxed?

Sheep. Brain washed. etc.

Maybe in your world...

I get called things but never sheep or brainwashed

[MDlaxfan76]

An NBA Star and New York's Governor Show That Liberal COVID Discourse is Devoid of Science

https://greenwald.substack.com/p/an-nba ... vernor-8d1

Just the liberals? C'mon....there is much discourse on all sides devoid of science.

yep, you're right Bart. click bait?...

I think the point is, it is liberals involved with shaming. Just read this board.

Tech, for heaven's sake----what do you think anti-vaxxers call those of us who have been vaxxed?

Sheep. Brain washed. etc.

Maybe in your world...

I get called things but never sheep or brainwashed

Really?
I guess folks on here are being polite.
Kidding.

[Farfromgeneva]

(CNN)If NBA players are not vaccinated, they shouldn't be on the team, basketball Hall of Famer Kareem Abdul-Jabbar told Rolling Stone.

"The NBA should insist that all players and staff are vaccinated or remove them from the team," said Abdul-Jabbar.

"There is no room for players who are willing to risk the health and lives of their teammates, the staff and the fans simply because they are unable to grasp the seriousness of the situation or do the necessary research."

Abdul-Jabbar elaborated on that point during an interview on Don Lemon Tonight Monday, saying, "I don't think that they are behaving like good teammates or good citizens. This is a war that we're involved in. And masks and vaccines -- they are the weapons that we use to fight this war."

Abdul-Jabbar has been a vocal advocate for getting the Covid-19 vaccine. The NBA great received his vaccine on camera and appeared in an NBA public service announcement encouraging others to get vaccinated.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/27/us/karee ... index.html

DocBarrister

Kareem has often not represented the NBA writ large. Not that I disagree but in this case he’s just a guy who had a little role in Airplane.

I like Lew never should’ve left the Bucks, but on this topic his voice is just a voice.

bets on kyrie and wiggins?

Wiggins is canadian-who cares

I’m starting to like Kyrie, he seems to be coming around and maturing from what I’ve seen. If you can’t give a 23-25yr old some latitude what does it say about this world?

[a fan]

I get called things but never sheep or brainwashed

[Farfromgeneva]

Even the seat belt and helmet requirements have a societal component to them. Society pays for those not complying in potential unpaid medical bills and resource utilization.

correct, thus justifying the legal mandate.

There is, however, a bit of a slippery slope as to how much cost one's individual choices cost the rest of the public before we decide it's worth restricting those individual choices. And, of course, who actually makes these decisions of what's to the benefit of the public.

Behavioral science tells us that humans have a very difficult time assessing and valuing the costs of our actions, both in the future, and on others. For our own part, we all the time sacrifice long term benefit for short term gratification of impulses. And we regularly 'pollute' if no rule requiring otherwise.

So, as a society we work through government to help mediate these tradeoffs better. Of course, government doesn't get it right all the time either, being made up of humans making various such tradeoff decisions with the same sorts of behavioral handicaps of simply being human.

But Covid is a no-brainer.
Clear and large costs to others.

I don’t like the social cost argument unless you can draw a pretty straight line. To me Covid is obvious. Seat belts less so. I’m fact I ended up writing a strong argument against them as it modifies behavior such that other reckless activities such as speeding and assuming others behavior because of seatbelts (think Monte Carlo simulation/game theory)could be more expensive to society.

The global medical cost argument to ACA has always bothered me as the primary driving reason to justify it. Felt lazy and specious compared with making a better argument that we just need damn reform and better safety nets for more. Always the short cut that comes with costs, frictions and rent seeking activities at the expense of all over the more transparent and fair policy.

And someone will knee jerk respond “but they blocked everything so it was all fair to get it done”. Subsequently ignore when they and their cause gets bent over by the other side with the same tactics and laziness and now we’ve got two bad policies that cost us all a lot more.

so are you good with whatever the local b.o.e. says for online learning, shut it down, knowing what you know? at whatever dividing line they see fit to warrant shutting it down?

Connect the dots for me? I think a localized basically completely indoor closed group setting with children is not the same thing unless I’m missing something it seems like you’re calling the two
The same?

actually, my question was exclusive of the seatbelt argument. asked as you said covid is obvious. would you be ok with any and all regs as they come down on school?
maybe not like them if you don't agree @ that point in time but thems the rules, or potentially throw a cherry bomb at the next meeting, or something in between?

Well if you saw my response to the overly soft and fake (with respect to the dichotomy in his professional presentation and personal behavior) parent, yes cherry bombs to start.

But look I’d hate it and be annoyed and might even look at private school as an option though I’d be loath do do that. But I’d accept it and maybe if I felt it was a bad decision look to make whatever moves I could that are appropriate and not scumbaggery to affect change at the top where the decision was made in the future.

I wouldn’t go and try to break laws, break down the APS’ doors and act like a general POS about it though. Just more aggressively approach my relationship and power dialectic to these people within the proper (both in codified law and mans law) ways going forward.

[Kismet]

I get called things but never sheep or brainwashed

Baaaaaaaaah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[wgdsr]

(CNN)If NBA players are not vaccinated, they shouldn't be on the team, basketball Hall of Famer Kareem Abdul-Jabbar told Rolling Stone.

"The NBA should insist that all players and staff are vaccinated or remove them from the team," said Abdul-Jabbar.

"There is no room for players who are willing to risk the health and lives of their teammates, the staff and the fans simply because they are unable to grasp the seriousness of the situation or do the necessary research."

Abdul-Jabbar elaborated on that point during an interview on Don Lemon Tonight Monday, saying, "I don't think that they are behaving like good teammates or good citizens. This is a war that we're involved in. And masks and vaccines -- they are the weapons that we use to fight this war."

Abdul-Jabbar has been a vocal advocate for getting the Covid-19 vaccine. The NBA great received his vaccine on camera and appeared in an NBA public service announcement encouraging others to get vaccinated.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/27/us/karee ... index.html

DocBarrister

Kareem has often not represented the NBA writ large. Not that I disagree but in this case he’s just a guy who had a little role in Airplane.

I like Lew never should’ve left the Bucks, but on this topic his voice is just a voice.

bets on kyrie and wiggins?

Wiggins is canadian-who cares

I’m starting to like Kyrie, he seems to be coming around and maturing from what I’ve seen. If you can’t give a 23-25yr old some latitude what does it say about this world?

kyrie's 29 closing on 30.
kyrie's and wiggins' problem is their cities say they can't play at home unless they're vaxxed. so that's up to 1/2 their $30-37 million dollar pay.
that's not $200 per month.

also possible we may see trade talks with either if they don't come off their stance.

[MDlaxfan76]

I'm going to feel better on my next trip to the hospital knowing that folks like these two will no longer be there.

Requesting a religious exemption for being Catholic? Saying the Pope is a hyprocrite and not following the Bible because he got vaxed? Think the Covid death numbers are over-stated. Not convinced the vaccines work because of so much suppressed science globally. GMAFB.

So forking stupid, stubborn and partisan blinded that they probably should get canned even if they would get the shot. Just unfit for the job imo.

Bless their hearts.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2021/09/2 ... kg-vpx.cnn

Yup.
Though I feel sorry for them, a bit.
I suspect they're usually, or previously have been, rational people who probably provided good care to their patients.
The misinformation engine has grown incredibly powerful and some previously rational folks have been badly warped..."suppressed science" hoo boy...
But yeah, they don't belong in these positions any longer. Disqualified themselves.

[Farfromgeneva]

(CNN)If NBA players are not vaccinated, they shouldn't be on the team, basketball Hall of Famer Kareem Abdul-Jabbar told Rolling Stone.

"The NBA should insist that all players and staff are vaccinated or remove them from the team," said Abdul-Jabbar.

"There is no room for players who are willing to risk the health and lives of their teammates, the staff and the fans simply because they are unable to grasp the seriousness of the situation or do the necessary research."

Abdul-Jabbar elaborated on that point during an interview on Don Lemon Tonight Monday, saying, "I don't think that they are behaving like good teammates or good citizens. This is a war that we're involved in. And masks and vaccines -- they are the weapons that we use to fight this war."

Abdul-Jabbar has been a vocal advocate for getting the Covid-19 vaccine. The NBA great received his vaccine on camera and appeared in an NBA public service announcement encouraging others to get vaccinated.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/27/us/karee ... index.html

DocBarrister

Kareem has often not represented the NBA writ large. Not that I disagree but in this case he’s just a guy who had a little role in Airplane.

I like Lew never should’ve left the Bucks, but on this topic his voice is just a voice.

bets on kyrie and wiggins?

Wiggins is canadian-who cares

I’m starting to like Kyrie, he seems to be coming around and maturing from what I’ve seen. If you can’t give a 23-25yr old some latitude what does it say about this world?

kyrie's 29 closing on 30.
kyrie's and wiggins' problem is their cities say they can't play at home unless they're vaxxed. so that's up to 1/2 their $30-37 million dollar pay.
that's not $200 per month.

also possible we may see trade talks with either if they don't come off their stance.

I meant with respect to his flat earth comments which were a good few years ago. Handy followed whatever issues they have with their multimillion dollar entertainment performance contracts, thought they were taking a outlier or minority type position on it all.

The way players honor contracts these days I couldn’t care less until the other side enforces them .

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/29/us/novan ... index.html

Denny’s might be hiring.

Yep. Fork em. Not gonna effect patient care. Lets just call out the National Guard to cover for them.

I feel bad for some of these people actually. A friend that doesn’t want to be vaccinated is going to have to make a decision next month he believes. A “laborer” with limited education, as in 8th grade….talked to him today about getting vaccinated. He has every reason under the sun why he won’t get vaccinated but none of them are rational. He really can’t afford to lose a job. I am going to buy him some redwing boots because he is complaining about being on his feet all day.

[ggait]

He has every reason under the sun why he won’t get vaccinated but none of them are rational. He really can’t afford to lose a job. I am going to buy him some redwing boots because he is complaining about being on his feet all day.

We had a handy man type guy at our house recently who was similar. Actually pretty intelligent and articulate. But he was a sucker for any type of crazy story circulating on the internet. And obviously ignoring the obvious.

There have been 390 million vax doses administered in the US. 6.2 billion worldwide. So you'd think those awful side effects would have started showing up.

And if those rumored side effects show up years from now, well almost everyone is going to have them.

[Typical Lax Dad]

He has every reason under the sun why he won’t get vaccinated but none of them are rational. He really can’t afford to lose a job. I am going to buy him some redwing boots because he is complaining about being on his feet all day.

We had a handy man type guy at our house recently who was similar. Actually pretty intelligent and articulate. But he was a sucker for any type of crazy story circulating on the internet. And obviously ignoring the obvious.

There have been 390 million vax doses administered in the US. 6.2 billion worldwide. So you'd think those awful side effects would have started showing up.

And if those rumored side effects show up years from now, well almost everyone is going to have them.

I told him about 3 people that caught it…the spreader and the two people she spread it to….1 died, one survived and has kidney damage and one recovered. He points to the girl that recovered. His uncle caught it and couldn’t walk 10ft…but foot people were at cam cause cancer and a vaccine may cause something we don’t know about. Again, I give him a pass. Dropped out of school but he wasn’t “dumb”.

[MDlaxfan76]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/29/us/novan ... index.html

Denny’s might be hiring.

Yep. Fork em. Not gonna effect patient care. Lets just call out the National Guard to cover for them.

I feel bad for some of these people actually. A friend that doesn’t want to be vaccinated is going to have to make a decision next month he believes. A “laborer” with limited education, as in 8th grade….talked to him today about getting vaccinated. He has every reason under the sun why he won’t get vaccinated but none of them are rational. He really can’t afford to lose a job. I am going to buy him some redwing boots because he is complaining about being on his feet all day.

Bart,
Let's hope the proportions are similar to this hospital:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/29/us/novan ... index.html

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/323 ... ayers-play

[Farfromgeneva]

I'm going to feel better on my next trip to the hospital knowing that folks like these two will no longer be there.

Requesting a religious exemption for being Catholic? Saying the Pope is a hyprocrite and not following the Bible because he got vaxed? Think the Covid death numbers are over-stated. Not convinced the vaccines work because of so much suppressed science globally. GMAFB.

So forking stupid, stubborn and partisan blinded that they probably should get canned even if they would get the shot. Just unfit for the job imo.

Bless their hearts.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2021/09/2 ... kg-vpx.cnn

Yup.
Though I feel sorry for them, a bit.
I suspect they're usually, or previously have been, rational people who probably provided good care to their patients.
The misinformation engine has grown incredibly powerful and some previously rational folks have been badly warped..."suppressed science" hoo boy...
But yeah, they don't belong in these positions any longer. Disqualified themselves.

Neal Brennan on Catholicism (Clip link then transcript link-this show is profound to me and the structure is truly unique the way he set it up called 3 mics)

Audio
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sJRfkYSZJiI

Transcript
https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/comedy/ne ... ranscript/

I grew up Catholic. Anybody else?

[cheering]

Still doing it?

[man in audience] No.

No? They never… Being Catholic’s like playing trombone. After 12th grade, you’re, like, “I don’t have to do that turd anymore.” The older I get, you know who I respect more and more? Muslims. What they believe feels foreign to us, but they’re committed to it. They’re, like, “God came to us a couple of thousand years ago”, had some simple rules: Pray five times a day, don’t eat ham, women gotta dress like ninjas. Those are the rules. Until we hear back, “we’re sticking with those rules.” Whereas Catholicism will change whenever. The new Pope is barely even Catholic. He is. And he’s trying to be, like, a cool stepdad about turd. “So, I understand drugs are called ‘Mollys’ now? I get it.” I feel the Pope just makes turd up. Last year they asked the Pope, “Can pets get into heaven?” And he thinks for a second, he goes… “Yeah.” “heck it, everybody gets a plus-one. I just decided.” At one point, they asked the Pope, “What do you think of gay marriage?” The Pope goes, “Who am I to judge gay people?” Dude… you’re the Pope! For the last thousand years, you’ve had two jobs: One, judging gay people, and two, covering up gay things that your coworkers are doing. Those are your jobs as the Pope. That, and dressing like an outer-space pimp… with an unlimited budget. He has red shoes and a clear car. That’s a pimp.

[seacoaster]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/30/brie ... covid.html

"The United States owes its existence as a nation partly to an immunization mandate.

In 1777, smallpox was a big enough problem for the bedraggled American army that George Washington thought it could jeopardize the Revolution. An outbreak had already led to one American defeat, at the Battle of Quebec. To prevent more, Washington ordered immunizations — done quietly, so the British would not hear how many Americans were sick — for all troops who had not yet had the virus.

It worked. The number of smallpox cases plummeted, and Washington’s army survived a war of attrition against the world’s most powerful country. The immunization mandate, as Ron Chernow wrote in his 2010 Pulitzer Prize-winning biography of Washington, “was as important as any military measure Washington adopted during the war.”

In the decades that followed, immunization treatments became safer (the Revolutionary War method killed 2 percent or 3 percent of recipients), and mandates became more common, in the military and beyond. They also tended to generate hostility from a small minority of Americans.

A Cambridge, Mass., pastor took his opposition to a smallpox vaccine all the way to the Supreme Court in 1905, before losing. Fifty years later, while most Americans were celebrating the start of a mass vaccination campaign against polio, there were still some dissenters. A United Press wire-service article that ran in newspapers across the country on April 13, 1955, reported:

Hundreds of doctors and registered nurses stood ready to begin the stupendous task of inoculating the millions of children throughout the country.

Some hitches developed, however. In Maryland’s Montgomery County, 4,000 parents flatly refused to let their youngsters receive the vaccine. Two counties in Indiana objected that the plan smacked of socialized medicine.

Many vaccinations, few firings

We are now living through this cycle again. The deadline for many workplace mandates arrived this week, often requiring people to have received a Covid-19 vaccine or face being fired. In California, the deadline for health care workers is today.

As was the case with Washington’s army, the mandates are largely succeeding:

California’s policy has led thousands of previously unvaccinated medical workers to receive shots in recent weeks. At Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles, about 800 additional workers have been vaccinated since the policy was announced last month, bringing the hospital’s vaccination rate to 97 percent, according to my colleague Shawn Hubler.

When New York State announced a mandate for hospital and nursing-home staff members in August, about 75 percent of them had received a shot. By Monday, the share had risen to 92 percent. The increase amounts to roughly 100,000 newly vaccinated people.

At Trinity Health, a hospital chain in 22 states, the increase has been similar — to 94 percent from 75 percent, The Times’s Reed Abelson reports. At Genesis HealthCare, which operates long-term-care facilities in 23 states, Covid cases fell by nearly 50 percent after nearly all staff members had finished receiving shots this summer.

Often, the number of people who ultimately refuse the vaccine is smaller than the number who first say they will. Some are persuaded by the information their employer gives them — about the vaccines’ effectiveness and safety, compared with the deadliness of Covid — and others decide they are not really willing to lose their jobs.

A North Carolina hospital system, Novant Health, last week suspended 375 workers, or about 1 percent of its work force, for being unvaccinated. By the end of the week, more than half of them — about 200 — received a shot and were reinstated.

Of course, 175 firings are not nothing. (A Washington Post headline trumpeted the story as “one of the largest-ever mass terminations due to a vaccine mandate.”) United Airlines said this week that it would terminate even more employees — about 600, or less than 1 percent of its U.S. work force.

These firings can create hardship for the workers and short-term disruptions for their employers. But those disruptions tend to be fleeting, because the percentage of workers is tiny. “I’m not seeing any widespread disruptive effect,” Saad Omer of the Yale Institute for Global Health told The Times.

The rationale for workplace mandates revolves around those large benefits: Even in a country that prioritizes individual freedom as much as the U.S. does, citizens do not have the right to harm their colleagues or their colleagues’ families, friends and communities. One person’s right to a healthy life is greater than another person’s right to a specific job.

As Carol Silver-Elliott, the chief executive of Jewish Home Family, a senior-care facility in New Jersey, told ABC News about her company’s mandate, “We felt it was a small price to pay to keep our elders safe, and it is something we feel very, very strongly about.”

After I spent some time reading about the history of vaccine mandates, I was struck by how little the debate has changed over the centuries. In 1905, when the Supreme Court ruled against the Massachusetts pastor who did not want to take a smallpox vaccine, Justice John Marshall Harlan explained that the Constitution did not allow Americans always to behave however they chose. “Real liberty for all could not exist,” Harlan wrote in his majority opinion, if people could act “regardless of the injury that may be done to others.”