Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

[old salt]

Comparisons to the distant past don't hold much water either IMHO.

Then why did you bring them up ?

Perhaps because the vast majority of us in America, who like to consider ourselves "Americans", are the descendants of people who had no "legal" invitation to be here, indeed most fleeing some form of oppression or famine or destitution in their home country AND/OR seeking their "fortunes" in a land of perceived greater opportunity than their home country. Or are the descendants of slaves. Who among us can really claim to a greater right to be an "American"?

And if we really want to push the 'legal' status nonsense, those Europeans who were first here, indeed who came in droves, certainly had no "legal" basis for being here. For well over 100 years, every darn one of them was here "illegally" from a Native perspective. Still are...

The question was not directed to you. He said that comparisons with distant past don't hold much water,
prompting me to ask why he introduced them if they do not matter.

It is just an irrelevant diversion. Instead of tying yourself in knots trying to rationalize the chaos on our southern border & our inability to control who comes into our country, why don't you just admit you want to open our borders to whoever wants to enter. We always need more cheap labor for our plantation & to better serve us. Instead of enticing all those Haitian migrants from risking their lives on the trek through the jungle in the Darian gap, let's just send a cruise ship to bring them to the US. You've already assured us what good workers they are, just hire supervisors who can speak creole.

If you think legal status in "nonsense", just admit that you think every global citizen should be free to come & go as they please, to reside & be a citizen wherever they choose.

I'm already wracked with guilt that I was born white. Now I have to shoulder even more guilt for being born in the USA. How do I atone for my good fortune ?

The chaos is a function of overly restrictive border policies in the first place. It’s pretty much that simple.

What we need is more people that appreciate this country and not for stupid things like standing and holding our hand over our chests but embracing the principles of this country. That includes being a refuge from tyranny not being tyrannical. Core to our founding. Folks arguing for tighter and tighter border controls are anti American, not kapernick kneeling or such idiocy as some project. Form over function.

Agree with your second sentiment.

But I think the chaos is not just a function of overly restrictive border policies, but rather underly enforced policies for the past 25+ years. ANY policy enforcement is seen as overly restrictive when it's been essentially an open border for as long as I can remember.

I'm for all immigrants from any country. Its good for American society, its good for the labor market, and it's a way to shift the bs, lazy attitude of the country.

My only caveat is to generally vet them for criminal backgrounds. I think immigrants make America awesome. I say, let people raise their hand, get in line to be here, get vetted, and welcome to the US. We have to shut down the open border. No other country in the world allows it. But the vetting and approval has to be a process we can streamline. Make the process shorter and easier so people stop thinking their only hope is to jump the line. No one likes line jumpers.

Understood, but unless we do increase the amount of immigrants we accept, and make that process much, much more streamlined and responsive, we're going to continue to see enormous pressure on the border and with overstayed visas.

The problem is not that we have demand on the borders, its that we have purposely not met that demand through legal processes. We've had a heavy amount of nativist resistance as well as a complacency of business which is just fine with being able to underpay undocumented workers relative to documented.

I'm just not ok with focusing on border issues as the important problem when it's really that we won't address the 10 million plus undocumented with a legal process and we won't take in far more immigrants annually, legally.

...so we can't do anything to secure the border & reduce the flow of illegal migrants until we address the undocumented already here ?
WHY NOT ? That will be viewed as amnesty & just encourage more to come. All it would take to streamline the legal process is to close the asylum loopholes & process legit asylum claims & reject bogus claims on the front end like other nations do.

You offer nothing to address the humanitarian crisis or criminal, illegal drug & terrorist threats your default open border policy yields.
You can't even acknowledge that Trump took steps that were effective & that Biden rescinded them.
You claim that Biden changed nothing. Rather than address reality, you play the race card & name call to divert attention, just like the Dems & Biden Admin.

[MDlaxfan76]

Freedom of movement, residence & work within the EU was a primary motivating factor in Brexit.
Race or religion was not the dividing line. It was to keep out E Europeans out who'd work for less.
The Polish plumbers.

EU elites underestimated the many factors which lead to Brexit, just as our iberal elites US can't understand why Trump was elected.
...& it's not nativisn, xenophobia, or racism. Citing those is a failure to come to grips with reality.

That there's economic fear and resentment does not exclude nativism, xenophobia, and racism. These very much coexist and reinforce.

Those were all huge factors in Brexit, just as they were in Trump's election, though I'd suggest that the realities of economic competition from freedom of movement migrants in Britain were far more real there than any actual competition for jobs here from southern border or African migrants. That was BS, but it successfully tapped into by the nativist/racist strain in our country. Populist BS.

Much more relevant in the US were the impacts of globalization and technology, with the multiple decades of failure to sufficiently address these dislocation impacts of these seemingly rapid changes. In addition to the blaming of illegal immigration and "China", searching for an enemy to blame other than one's own incapacity to adapt, to reeducate, re-skill...there's been a big wave of resentment against women and women's equality in the workforce. And indeed, the impacts of women entering the workforce over the past 40 years has probably caused an even greater sense of economic and social dislocation for older males than any other factor. We now have 60:40 women:men at colleges! Significant cultural backlash though less 'acceptable'

But you're right, 'elites' in both countries underestimated the depth of these resentments and prejudices, and the power of the populist to incite intensity of response.

They shouldn't underestimate them again.
However they (we) probably will, as we human beings have a tough time weighing the capacity of others' resentments and prejudices to be powerful motivators if we don't feel them with the same intensity ourselves. How many of us actually thought there'd been a breakthrough with the election of Obama, underestimating the intensity of the backlash? a lot of us...and we didn't need to be Dems or liberals...it's not as if we thought that white supremacy and such bigotries had suddenly dissolved, but we wanted to think only a small minority had an issue with his skin color...we were wrong.

[MDlaxfan76]

Comparisons to the distant past don't hold much water either IMHO.

Then why did you bring them up ?

Perhaps because the vast majority of us in America, who like to consider ourselves "Americans", are the descendants of people who had no "legal" invitation to be here, indeed most fleeing some form of oppression or famine or destitution in their home country AND/OR seeking their "fortunes" in a land of perceived greater opportunity than their home country. Or are the descendants of slaves. Who among us can really claim to a greater right to be an "American"?

And if we really want to push the 'legal' status nonsense, those Europeans who were first here, indeed who came in droves, certainly had no "legal" basis for being here. For well over 100 years, every darn one of them was here "illegally" from a Native perspective. Still are...

The question was not directed to you. He said that comparisons with distant past don't hold much water,
prompting me to ask why he introduced them if they do not matter.

It is just an irrelevant diversion. Instead of tying yourself in knots trying to rationalize the chaos on our southern border & our inability to control who comes into our country, why don't you just admit you want to open our borders to whoever wants to enter. We always need more cheap labor for our plantation & to better serve us. Instead of enticing all those Haitian migrants from risking their lives on the trek through the jungle in the Darian gap, let's just send a cruise ship to bring them to the US. You've already assured us what good workers they are, just hire supervisors who can speak creole.

If you think legal status in "nonsense", just admit that you think every global citizen should be free to come & go as they please, to reside & be a citizen wherever they choose.

I'm already wracked with guilt that I was born white. Now I have to shoulder even more guilt for being born in the USA. How do I atone for my good fortune ?

The chaos is a function of overly restrictive border policies in the first place. It’s pretty much that simple.

What we need is more people that appreciate this country and not for stupid things like standing and holding our hand over our chests but embracing the principles of this country. That includes being a refuge from tyranny not being tyrannical. Core to our founding. Folks arguing for tighter and tighter border controls are anti American, not kapernick kneeling or such idiocy as some project. Form over function.

Agree with your second sentiment.

But I think the chaos is not just a function of overly restrictive border policies, but rather underly enforced policies for the past 25+ years. ANY policy enforcement is seen as overly restrictive when it's been essentially an open border for as long as I can remember.

I'm for all immigrants from any country. Its good for American society, its good for the labor market, and it's a way to shift the bs, lazy attitude of the country.

My only caveat is to generally vet them for criminal backgrounds. I think immigrants make America awesome. I say, let people raise their hand, get in line to be here, get vetted, and welcome to the US. We have to shut down the open border. No other country in the world allows it. But the vetting and approval has to be a process we can streamline. Make the process shorter and easier so people stop thinking their only hope is to jump the line. No one likes line jumpers.

Understood, but unless we do increase the amount of immigrants we accept, and make that process much, much more streamlined and responsive, we're going to continue to see enormous pressure on the border and with overstayed visas.

The problem is not that we have demand on the borders, its that we have purposely not met that demand through legal processes. We've had a heavy amount of nativist resistance as well as a complacency of business which is just fine with being able to underpay undocumented workers relative to documented.

I'm just not ok with focusing on border issues as the important problem when it's really that we won't address the 10 million plus undocumented with a legal process and we won't take in far more immigrants annually, legally.

...so we can't do anything to secure the border & reduce the flow of illegal migrants until we address the undocumented already here ?
WHY NOT ? That will be viewed as amnesty & just encourage more to come. All it would take to streamline the legal process is to close the asylum loopholes & process legit asylum claims & reject bogus claims on the front end like other nations do.

You offer nothing to address the humanitarian crisis or criminal, illegal drug & terrorist threats your default open border policy yields.
You can't even acknowledge that Trump took steps that were effective & that Biden rescinded them.
You claim that Biden changed nothing. Rather than address reality, you play the race card & name call to divert attention, just like the Dems & Biden Admin.

Baloney. I'm directly addressing the issue.

Until we decide to accept far more immigrants through legal processes and enable those already here to be documented and on path to be citizens, and instate E-verify, we'll never stop the pressure at the border...sure, we could shoot to kill anyone crossing the river and that'd keep folks back for awhile, but we ain't gonna stop the desire for people to get their families to safer, more prosperous lives. Focus resources on the drug and human trafficking smugglers, not those seeking asylum. Not 'open borders'.

But no, Trump just told you that the only people to be concerned about were from s-hole countries, and that tapped into the dark, racist/nativist underbelly of America...they believed him just like they believe he actually won the election...they want to believe, they need to believe...and we who have read what you write now for years understand where you're coming from on this aspect.

[MDlaxfan76]

Freedom of movement, residence & work within the EU was a primary motivating factor in Brexit.
Race or religion was not the dividing line. It was to keep out E Europeans out who'd work for less.
The Polish plumbers.

EU elites underestimated the many factors which lead to Brexit, just as our iberal elites US can't understand why Trump was elected.
...& it's not nativisn, xenophobia, or racism. Citing those is a failure to come to grips with reality.

I agree, it'd be comical if it weren't such a sadly dumb point of view.
Dark comedy.

But I think Salty's plenty smart enough to understand economic resentments and bigotries are not mutually exclusive, he's just selling this BS that if there's economic resentment it can't also be racist, xenophobic, and nativist. Under his rubric, folks are in the right to be angry and to hate...

But hey, he's a "Nationalist".
It's their creed.

[old salt]

Comparisons to the distant past don't hold much water either IMHO.

Then why did you bring them up ?

Perhaps because the vast majority of us in America, who like to consider ourselves "Americans", are the descendants of people who had no "legal" invitation to be here, indeed most fleeing some form of oppression or famine or destitution in their home country AND/OR seeking their "fortunes" in a land of perceived greater opportunity than their home country. Or are the descendants of slaves. Who among us can really claim to a greater right to be an "American"?

And if we really want to push the 'legal' status nonsense, those Europeans who were first here, indeed who came in droves, certainly had no "legal" basis for being here. For well over 100 years, every darn one of them was here "illegally" from a Native perspective. Still are...

The question was not directed to you. He said that comparisons with distant past don't hold much water,
prompting me to ask why he introduced them if they do not matter.

It is just an irrelevant diversion. Instead of tying yourself in knots trying to rationalize the chaos on our southern border & our inability to control who comes into our country, why don't you just admit you want to open our borders to whoever wants to enter. We always need more cheap labor for our plantation & to better serve us. Instead of enticing all those Haitian migrants from risking their lives on the trek through the jungle in the Darian gap, let's just send a cruise ship to bring them to the US. You've already assured us what good workers they are, just hire supervisors who can speak creole.

If you think legal status in "nonsense", just admit that you think every global citizen should be free to come & go as they please, to reside & be a citizen wherever they choose.

I'm already wracked with guilt that I was born white. Now I have to shoulder even more guilt for being born in the USA. How do I atone for my good fortune ?

The chaos is a function of overly restrictive border policies in the first place. It’s pretty much that simple.

What we need is more people that appreciate this country and not for stupid things like standing and holding our hand over our chests but embracing the principles of this country. That includes being a refuge from tyranny not being tyrannical. Core to our founding. Folks arguing for tighter and tighter border controls are anti American, not kapernick kneeling or such idiocy as some project. Form over function.

Agree with your second sentiment.

But I think the chaos is not just a function of overly restrictive border policies, but rather underly enforced policies for the past 25+ years. ANY policy enforcement is seen as overly restrictive when it's been essentially an open border for as long as I can remember.

I'm for all immigrants from any country. Its good for American society, its good for the labor market, and it's a way to shift the bs, lazy attitude of the country.

My only caveat is to generally vet them for criminal backgrounds. I think immigrants make America awesome. I say, let people raise their hand, get in line to be here, get vetted, and welcome to the US. We have to shut down the open border. No other country in the world allows it. But the vetting and approval has to be a process we can streamline. Make the process shorter and easier so people stop thinking their only hope is to jump the line. No one likes line jumpers.

Understood, but unless we do increase the amount of immigrants we accept, and make that process much, much more streamlined and responsive, we're going to continue to see enormous pressure on the border and with overstayed visas.

The problem is not that we have demand on the borders, its that we have purposely not met that demand through legal processes. We've had a heavy amount of nativist resistance as well as a complacency of business which is just fine with being able to underpay undocumented workers relative to documented.

I'm just not ok with focusing on border issues as the important problem when it's really that we won't address the 10 million plus undocumented with a legal process and we won't take in far more immigrants annually, legally.

...so we can't do anything to secure the border & reduce the flow of illegal migrants until we address the undocumented already here ?
WHY NOT ? That will be viewed as amnesty & just encourage more to come. All it would take to streamline the legal process is to close the asylum loopholes & process legit asylum claims & reject bogus claims on the front end like other nations do.

You offer nothing to address the humanitarian crisis or criminal, illegal drug & terrorist threats your default open border policy yields.
You can't even acknowledge that Trump took steps that were effective & that Biden rescinded them.
You claim that Biden changed nothing. Rather than address reality, you play the race card & name call to divert attention, just like the Dems & Biden Admin.

Baloney. I'm directly addressing the issue.

Until we decide to accept far more immigrants through legal processes and enable those already here to be documented and on path to be citizens, and instate E-verify, we'll never stop the pressure at the border...sure, we could shoot to kill anyone crossing the river and that'd keep folks back for awhile, but we ain't gonna stop the desire for people to get their families to safer, more prosperous lives. Focus resources on the drug and human trafficking smugglers, not those seeking asylum. Not 'open borders'.

But no, Trump just told you that the only people to be concerned about were from s-hole countries, and that tapped into the dark, racist/nativist underbelly of America...they believed him just like they believe he actually won the election...they want to believe, they need to believe...and we who have read what you write now for years understand where you're coming from on this aspect.

Right. Until we get your perfect solution, we shouldn't try to enforce existing laws.

Can't "focus resources on the drug & human trafficking smugglers" when those resources are overwhelmed processing & baby sitting the flood of migrants induced by our sham catch & release asylum process which makes a cruel joke of immigration adjudication.

It's just a cover for open borders. What % of asylum applicants actually complete the adjudication process & are granted residence or deported, & what % just disappear into the unenforced illegal population, which are tolerated.
How many more legal migrants should be authorized when we don't even know how many are here already illegally ?

Trump actions & rhetoric deterred migrants from coming, just as Biden hopes his deportation flights to Haiti will deter the next surge.

As always, you default to personal attacks & the race card when you don't have credible answers for the hard realities. Weak & self-serving.

[old salt]

Freedom of movement, residence & work within the EU was a primary motivating factor in Brexit.
Race or religion was not the dividing line. It was to keep out E Europeans out who'd work for less.
The Polish plumbers.

EU elites underestimated the many factors which lead to Brexit, just as our iberal elites US can't understand why Trump was elected.
...& it's not nativism, xenophobia, or racism. Citing those is a failure to come to grips with reality.

I agree, it'd be comical if it weren't such a sadly dumb point of view.
Dark comedy.

But I think Salty's plenty smart enough to understand economic resentments and bigotries are not mutually exclusive, he's just selling this BS that if there's economic resentment it can't also be racist, xenophobic, and nativist. Under his rubric, folks are in the right to be angry and to hate...

But hey, he's a "Nationalist".
It's their creed.

...what race is the Polish plumber ?

[old salt]

Freedom of movement, residence & work within the EU was a primary motivating factor in Brexit.
Race or religion was not the dividing line. It was to keep out E Europeans out who'd work for less.
The Polish plumbers.

EU elites underestimated the many factors which lead to Brexit, just as our iberal elites US can't understand why Trump was elected.
...& it's not nativisn, xenophobia, or racism. Citing those is a failure to come to grips with reality.

That there's economic fear and resentment does not exclude nativism, xenophobia, and racism. These very much coexist and reinforce.

Those were all huge factors in Brexit, just as they were in Trump's election, though I'd suggest that the realities of economic competition from freedom of movement migrants in Britain were far more real there than any actual competition for jobs here from southern border or African migrants. That was BS, but it successfully tapped into by the nativist/racist strain in our country. Populist BS.

Much more relevant in the US were the impacts of globalization and technology, with the multiple decades of failure to sufficiently address these dislocation impacts of these seemingly rapid changes. In addition to the blaming of illegal immigration and "China", searching for an enemy to blame other than one's own incapacity to adapt, to reeducate, re-skill...there's been a big wave of resentment against women and women's equality in the workforce. And indeed, the impacts of women entering the workforce over the past 40 years has probably caused an even greater sense of economic and social dislocation for older males than any other factor. We now have 60:40 women:men at colleges! Significant cultural backlash though less 'acceptable'

But you're right, 'elites' in both countries underestimated the depth of these resentments and prejudices, and the power of the populist to incite intensity of response.

They shouldn't underestimate them again.
However they (we) probably will, as we human beings have a tough time weighing the capacity of others' resentments and prejudices to be powerful motivators if we don't feel them with the same intensity ourselves. How many of us actually thought there'd been a breakthrough with the election of Obama, underestimating the intensity of the backlash? a lot of us...and we didn't need to be Dems or liberals...it's not as if we thought that white supremacy and such bigotries had suddenly dissolved, but we wanted to think only a small minority had an issue with his skin color...we were wrong.

This is what you see when everything is viewed through a glass darkly.

[a fan]

Freedom of movement, residence & work within the EU was a primary motivating factor in Brexit.
Race or religion was not the dividing line. It was to keep out E Europeans out who'd work for less.
The Polish plumbers.

EU elites underestimated the many factors which lead to Brexit, just as our iberal elites US can't understand why Trump was elected.
...& it's not nativisn, xenophobia, or racism. Citing those is a failure to come to grips with reality.

That there's economic fear and resentment does not exclude nativism, xenophobia, and racism. These very much coexist and reinforce.

Those were all huge factors in Brexit, just as they were in Trump's election, though I'd suggest that the realities of economic competition from freedom of movement migrants in Britain were far more real there than any actual competition for jobs here from southern border or African migrants. That was BS, but it successfully tapped into by the nativist/racist strain in our country. Populist BS.

Much more relevant in the US were the impacts of globalization and technology, with the multiple decades of failure to sufficiently address these dislocation impacts of these seemingly rapid changes. In addition to the blaming of illegal immigration and "China", searching for an enemy to blame other than one's own incapacity to adapt, to reeducate, re-skill...there's been a big wave of resentment against women and women's equality in the workforce. And indeed, the impacts of women entering the workforce over the past 40 years has probably caused an even greater sense of economic and social dislocation for older males than any other factor. We now have 60:40 women:men at colleges! Significant cultural backlash though less 'acceptable'

But you're right, 'elites' in both countries underestimated the depth of these resentments and prejudices, and the power of the populist to incite intensity of response.

They shouldn't underestimate them again.
However they (we) probably will, as we human beings have a tough time weighing the capacity of others' resentments and prejudices to be powerful motivators if we don't feel them with the same intensity ourselves. How many of us actually thought there'd been a breakthrough with the election of Obama, underestimating the intensity of the backlash? a lot of us...and we didn't need to be Dems or liberals...it's not as if we thought that white supremacy and such bigotries had suddenly dissolved, but we wanted to think only a small minority had an issue with his skin color...we were wrong.

This is what you see when everything is viewed through a glass darkly.

Or, if you actually paid attention to what Trump campaigned on....and then add in what he actually delivered....and then realize that he was more popular with his voters than ever.


To wit: you keep saying that the coastal elites don't understand why Trump was elected.

I'm glad that you do, so you can tell us: why do you think Trump was elected?

[a fan]

Right. Until we get your perfect solution, we shouldn't try to enforce existing laws.

Yes. If Trump/Biden left the immigrants alone...and instead, spent all their muscle on going after businesses that employ illegal workers, and aggressively enforced existing laws?

This "problem" of yours would end faster than you could ever imagine. Ever see the movie "the Untouchables"?

"Mr. Ness, everybody knows where the booze is. The problem isn't finding it, the problem is who wants to cross Capone

[MDlaxfan76]

Comparisons to the distant past don't hold much water either IMHO.

Then why did you bring them up ?

Perhaps because the vast majority of us in America, who like to consider ourselves "Americans", are the descendants of people who had no "legal" invitation to be here, indeed most fleeing some form of oppression or famine or destitution in their home country AND/OR seeking their "fortunes" in a land of perceived greater opportunity than their home country. Or are the descendants of slaves. Who among us can really claim to a greater right to be an "American"?

And if we really want to push the 'legal' status nonsense, those Europeans who were first here, indeed who came in droves, certainly had no "legal" basis for being here. For well over 100 years, every darn one of them was here "illegally" from a Native perspective. Still are...

The question was not directed to you. He said that comparisons with distant past don't hold much water,
prompting me to ask why he introduced them if they do not matter.

It is just an irrelevant diversion. Instead of tying yourself in knots trying to rationalize the chaos on our southern border & our inability to control who comes into our country, why don't you just admit you want to open our borders to whoever wants to enter. We always need more cheap labor for our plantation & to better serve us. Instead of enticing all those Haitian migrants from risking their lives on the trek through the jungle in the Darian gap, let's just send a cruise ship to bring them to the US. You've already assured us what good workers they are, just hire supervisors who can speak creole.

If you think legal status in "nonsense", just admit that you think every global citizen should be free to come & go as they please, to reside & be a citizen wherever they choose.

I'm already wracked with guilt that I was born white. Now I have to shoulder even more guilt for being born in the USA. How do I atone for my good fortune ?

The chaos is a function of overly restrictive border policies in the first place. It’s pretty much that simple.

What we need is more people that appreciate this country and not for stupid things like standing and holding our hand over our chests but embracing the principles of this country. That includes being a refuge from tyranny not being tyrannical. Core to our founding. Folks arguing for tighter and tighter border controls are anti American, not kapernick kneeling or such idiocy as some project. Form over function.

Agree with your second sentiment.

But I think the chaos is not just a function of overly restrictive border policies, but rather underly enforced policies for the past 25+ years. ANY policy enforcement is seen as overly restrictive when it's been essentially an open border for as long as I can remember.

I'm for all immigrants from any country. Its good for American society, its good for the labor market, and it's a way to shift the bs, lazy attitude of the country.

My only caveat is to generally vet them for criminal backgrounds. I think immigrants make America awesome. I say, let people raise their hand, get in line to be here, get vetted, and welcome to the US. We have to shut down the open border. No other country in the world allows it. But the vetting and approval has to be a process we can streamline. Make the process shorter and easier so people stop thinking their only hope is to jump the line. No one likes line jumpers.

Understood, but unless we do increase the amount of immigrants we accept, and make that process much, much more streamlined and responsive, we're going to continue to see enormous pressure on the border and with overstayed visas.

The problem is not that we have demand on the borders, its that we have purposely not met that demand through legal processes. We've had a heavy amount of nativist resistance as well as a complacency of business which is just fine with being able to underpay undocumented workers relative to documented.

I'm just not ok with focusing on border issues as the important problem when it's really that we won't address the 10 million plus undocumented with a legal process and we won't take in far more immigrants annually, legally.

...so we can't do anything to secure the border & reduce the flow of illegal migrants until we address the undocumented already here ?
WHY NOT ? That will be viewed as amnesty & just encourage more to come. All it would take to streamline the legal process is to close the asylum loopholes & process legit asylum claims & reject bogus claims on the front end like other nations do.

You offer nothing to address the humanitarian crisis or criminal, illegal drug & terrorist threats your default open border policy yields.
You can't even acknowledge that Trump took steps that were effective & that Biden rescinded them.
You claim that Biden changed nothing. Rather than address reality, you play the race card & name call to divert attention, just like the Dems & Biden Admin.

Baloney. I'm directly addressing the issue.

Until we decide to accept far more immigrants through legal processes and enable those already here to be documented and on path to be citizens, and instate E-verify, we'll never stop the pressure at the border...sure, we could shoot to kill anyone crossing the river and that'd keep folks back for awhile, but we ain't gonna stop the desire for people to get their families to safer, more prosperous lives. Focus resources on the drug and human trafficking smugglers, not those seeking asylum. Not 'open borders'.

But no, Trump just told you that the only people to be concerned about were from s-hole countries, and that tapped into the dark, racist/nativist underbelly of America...they believed him just like they believe he actually won the election...they want to believe, they need to believe...and we who have read what you write now for years understand where you're coming from on this aspect.

Right. Until we get your perfect solution, we shouldn't try to enforce existing laws.

Can't "focus resources on the drug & human trafficking smugglers" when those resources are overwhelmed processing & baby sitting the flood of migrants induced by our sham catch & release asylum process which makes a cruel joke of immigration adjudication.

It's just a cover for open borders. What % of asylum applicants actually complete the adjudication process & are granted residence or deported, & what % just disappear into the unenforced illegal population, which are tolerated.
How many more legal migrants should be authorized when we don't even know how many are here already illegally ?

Trump actions & rhetoric deterred migrants from coming, just as Biden hopes his deportation flights to Haiti will deter the next surge.

As always, you default to personal attacks & the race card when you don't have credible answers for the hard realities. Weak & self-serving.

No, you refuse to enforce the laws against employing illegals. Gotta fix that and gotta let many more legal immigrants in, before demonizing people wanting a better life for their kids as the go to.

But we really do know why you want only some laws enforced.

[MDlaxfan76]

Freedom of movement, residence & work within the EU was a primary motivating factor in Brexit.
Race or religion was not the dividing line. It was to keep out E Europeans out who'd work for less.
The Polish plumbers.

EU elites underestimated the many factors which lead to Brexit, just as our iberal elites US can't understand why Trump was elected.
...& it's not nativisn, xenophobia, or racism. Citing those is a failure to come to grips with reality.

That there's economic fear and resentment does not exclude nativism, xenophobia, and racism. These very much coexist and reinforce.

Those were all huge factors in Brexit, just as they were in Trump's election, though I'd suggest that the realities of economic competition from freedom of movement migrants in Britain were far more real there than any actual competition for jobs here from southern border or African migrants. That was BS, but it successfully tapped into by the nativist/racist strain in our country. Populist BS.

Much more relevant in the US were the impacts of globalization and technology, with the multiple decades of failure to sufficiently address these dislocation impacts of these seemingly rapid changes. In addition to the blaming of illegal immigration and "China", searching for an enemy to blame other than one's own incapacity to adapt, to reeducate, re-skill...there's been a big wave of resentment against women and women's equality in the workforce. And indeed, the impacts of women entering the workforce over the past 40 years has probably caused an even greater sense of economic and social dislocation for older males than any other factor. We now have 60:40 women:men at colleges! Significant cultural backlash though less 'acceptable'

But you're right, 'elites' in both countries underestimated the depth of these resentments and prejudices, and the power of the populist to incite intensity of response.

They shouldn't underestimate them again.
However they (we) probably will, as we human beings have a tough time weighing the capacity of others' resentments and prejudices to be powerful motivators if we don't feel them with the same intensity ourselves. How many of us actually thought there'd been a breakthrough with the election of Obama, underestimating the intensity of the backlash? a lot of us...and we didn't need to be Dems or liberals...it's not as if we thought that white supremacy and such bigotries had suddenly dissolved, but we wanted to think only a small minority had an issue with his skin color...we were wrong.

This is what you see when everything is viewed through a glass darkly.

Or, if you actually paid attention to what Trump campaigned on....and then add in what he actually delivered....and then realize that he was more popular with his voters than ever.


To wit: you keep saying that the coastal elites don't understand why Trump was elected.

I'm glad that you do, so you can tell us: why do you think Trump was elected?

"darkly"?
I'm just seeing it fully, not picking and choosing selectively to pretend there's some righteous basis for nativism.

[Kismet]

Freedom of movement, residence & work within the EU was a primary motivating factor in Brexit.
Race or religion was not the dividing line. It was to keep out E Europeans out who'd work for less.
The Polish plumbers.

EU elites underestimated the many factors which lead to Brexit, just as our iberal elites US can't understand why Trump was elected.
...& it's not nativisn, xenophobia, or racism. Citing those is a failure to come to grips with reality.

That there's economic fear and resentment does not exclude nativism, xenophobia, and racism. These very much coexist and reinforce.

Those were all huge factors in Brexit, just as they were in Trump's election, though I'd suggest that the realities of economic competition from freedom of movement migrants in Britain were far more real there than any actual competition for jobs here from southern border or African migrants. That was BS, but it successfully tapped into by the nativist/racist strain in our country. Populist BS.

Much more relevant in the US were the impacts of globalization and technology, with the multiple decades of failure to sufficiently address these dislocation impacts of these seemingly rapid changes. In addition to the blaming of illegal immigration and "China", searching for an enemy to blame other than one's own incapacity to adapt, to reeducate, re-skill...there's been a big wave of resentment against women and women's equality in the workforce. And indeed, the impacts of women entering the workforce over the past 40 years has probably caused an even greater sense of economic and social dislocation for older males than any other factor. We now have 60:40 women:men at colleges! Significant cultural backlash though less 'acceptable'

But you're right, 'elites' in both countries underestimated the depth of these resentments and prejudices, and the power of the populist to incite intensity of response.

They shouldn't underestimate them again.
However they (we) probably will, as we human beings have a tough time weighing the capacity of others' resentments and prejudices to be powerful motivators if we don't feel them with the same intensity ourselves. How many of us actually thought there'd been a breakthrough with the election of Obama, underestimating the intensity of the backlash? a lot of us...and we didn't need to be Dems or liberals...it's not as if we thought that white supremacy and such bigotries had suddenly dissolved, but we wanted to think only a small minority had an issue with his skin color...we were wrong.

This is what you see when everything is viewed through a glass darkly.

Oh Boy. Channeling George S. Patton. No surprise. DOPUS' favorite general.
For all the things in common you both have hard to imagine why you didn't vote for him.

When Cradle sees this Patton connection off to Sicily and Dien Bien Phu we will all go again.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Freedom of movement, residence & work within the EU was a primary motivating factor in Brexit.
Race or religion was not the dividing line. It was to keep out E Europeans out who'd work for less.
The Polish plumbers.

EU elites underestimated the many factors which lead to Brexit, just as our iberal elites US can't understand why Trump was elected.
...& it's not nativisn, xenophobia, or racism. Citing those is a failure to come to grips with reality.

That there's economic fear and resentment does not exclude nativism, xenophobia, and racism. These very much coexist and reinforce.

Those were all huge factors in Brexit, just as they were in Trump's election, though I'd suggest that the realities of economic competition from freedom of movement migrants in Britain were far more real there than any actual competition for jobs here from southern border or African migrants. That was BS, but it successfully tapped into by the nativist/racist strain in our country. Populist BS.

Much more relevant in the US were the impacts of globalization and technology, with the multiple decades of failure to sufficiently address these dislocation impacts of these seemingly rapid changes. In addition to the blaming of illegal immigration and "China", searching for an enemy to blame other than one's own incapacity to adapt, to reeducate, re-skill...there's been a big wave of resentment against women and women's equality in the workforce. And indeed, the impacts of women entering the workforce over the past 40 years has probably caused an even greater sense of economic and social dislocation for older males than any other factor. We now have 60:40 women:men at colleges! Significant cultural backlash though less 'acceptable'

But you're right, 'elites' in both countries underestimated the depth of these resentments and prejudices, and the power of the populist to incite intensity of response.

They shouldn't underestimate them again.
However they (we) probably will, as we human beings have a tough time weighing the capacity of others' resentments and prejudices to be powerful motivators if we don't feel them with the same intensity ourselves. How many of us actually thought there'd been a breakthrough with the election of Obama, underestimating the intensity of the backlash? a lot of us...and we didn't need to be Dems or liberals...it's not as if we thought that white supremacy and such bigotries had suddenly dissolved, but we wanted to think only a small minority had an issue with his skin color...we were wrong.

This is what you see when everything is viewed through a glass darkly.

Oh Boy. Channeling George S. Patton. No surprise. DOPUS' favorite general.
For all the things in common you both have hard to imagine why you didn't vote for him.

When Cradle sees this Patton connection off to Sicily and Dien Bien Phu we will all go again.

I didn’t see the “l” at first. It was funnier without it.

[old salt]

Right. Until we get your perfect solution, we shouldn't try to enforce existing laws.

Yes. If Trump/Biden left the immigrants alone...and instead, spent all their muscle on going after businesses that employ illegal workers, and aggressively enforced existing laws?

This "problem" of yours would end faster than you could ever imagine.

No, you refuse to enforce the laws against employing illegals. Gotta fix that and gotta let many more legal immigrants in, before demonizing people wanting a better life for their kids as the go to.

But we really do know why you want only some laws enforced.

I'm all for enforcing those laws. It can't be the first thing done or it will collapse the economy & yield thousands of impoverished illegal aliens roaming the country ? Do you expect them to then self-deport. E-verify & enforcement should be one of the last steps. Who's going to enforce it ? We don't have enough ICE to enforce current laws. What about sanctuary cities & states ?

First we must secure the border, then legitimize the millions already here who are self-supporting & not criminals. Then do E-verify & allow illegal workers already here to legitimize their identity & status. That will be viewed as amnesty & prompt more to try to enter, which is why we must first secure the border & stop the asylum scam catch & release process which is the pipeline currently being seized upon.

DACA has just been found unconstitutional. I'd like to see an initial compromise bill incorporating DACA into law & bringing our asylum process in line with UNHCR guidance. Then once the border is secure, proceed to E-verify & green card residency for self-supporting, non-criminal workers already here. Give that a year to stabilize & then tweak the process to yield the workers we need, connect with families already here & provide a haven for legit refugees & asylum seekers. We're trying to work the process backward.

[a fan]

I'm all for enforcing those laws. It can't be the first thing done or it will collapse the economy & yield thousands of impoverished illegal aliens roaming the country ? Do you expect them to then self-deport. E-verify & enforcement should be one of the last steps.

So I'm not the only one who's letting the perfect get in the way of the good, eh?

Start with employers with more than 100 employees, so the workers have an "out".

The sit back and watch alllllll the multinational corporations freak out, and FORCE Congress to actually fix the problem.

Think of it like having the military draft---it forces legislators to actually solve problems if the rich have skin in the game.

Donald Trump ran on this, my man---and did nothing. What else do you need to see to understand that this problem will be around for our kids to fix?. You're nuts if you think Biden or anyone else is going to lift a finger to move the ball on this issue.

Everify---sticking it to the donor class-----is the only way. We just need a POTUS who will do that.

[old salt]

I'm all for enforcing those laws. It can't be the first thing done or it will collapse the economy & yield thousands of impoverished illegal aliens roaming the country ? Do you expect them to then self-deport. E-verify & enforcement should be one of the last steps.

So I'm not the only one who's letting the perfect get in the way of the good, eh?

No. I'm all for doing what you propose, just doing it at a time when it will succeed & actually have a chance of happening.

[a fan]

I'm all for enforcing those laws. It can't be the first thing done or it will collapse the economy & yield thousands of impoverished illegal aliens roaming the country ? Do you expect them to then self-deport. E-verify & enforcement should be one of the last steps.

So I'm not the only one who's letting the perfect get in the way of the good, eh?

No. I'm all for doing what you propose, just doing it at a time when it will succeed & actually have a chance of happening.

I told you what would happen under Trump. And, of course, that's what happened.

I know I don't have to ask you if you think Biden will fix the problem, because, well.....

So....who is it that you think is going to fix this problem? Congress won't do it. You understand that now, right?

If I thought this could be fixed practically? Your plan makes sense. Of course, they have done NOTHING about this problem since Reagan issued amnesty, and walked away, pretending it was "fixed". But credit to Reagan for doing SOMETHING.

[old salt]

I'm all for enforcing those laws. It can't be the first thing done or it will collapse the economy & yield thousands of impoverished illegal aliens roaming the country ? Do you expect them to then self-deport. E-verify & enforcement should be one of the last steps.

So I'm not the only one who's letting the perfect get in the way of the good, eh?

No. I'm all for doing what you propose, just doing it at a time when it will succeed & actually have a chance of happening.

I told you what would happen under Trump. And, of course, that's what happened.

I know I don't have to ask you if you think Biden will fix the problem, because, well.....

So....who is it that you think is going to fix this problem? Congress won't do it. You understand that now, right?

If I thought this could be fixed practically? Your plan makes sense. Of course, they have done NOTHING about this problem since Reagan issued amnesty, and walked away, pretending it was "fixed". But credit to Reagan for doing SOMETHING.

I think Biden would be smart to offer my first step as a compromise. He'd win points with his base for saving DACA, while legitimizing asylum & relieving pressure on the southern border. Force the (R)'s to turn it down -- they say they support DACA & want to stop catch & release. This presents the opportunity to do both. The border fiasco has been a bleeding sore on Biden's approval ratings. Even the (D)'s are criticizing him. He's gotta do something other than bulldoze the trash & demonize the CBP cowpokes.

Today's stats on S border entrants since Jan from Natl Border Patrol Council -- 600k caught & released + 300k gottaways

[a fan]

This is why, IMHO, the libs hold the high ground. Unlike American conservatives----they don't believe a single word their leaders tell them, regardless of party affiliation....

Headline :It’s not that Democrats can’t update an immigration system that everyone agrees is outdated, ineffective and unfair. It’s that they don’t want to.



https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-dems- ... eek-digest

[Farfromgeneva]

Freedom of movement, residence & work within the EU was a primary motivating factor in Brexit.
Race or religion was not the dividing line. It was to keep out E Europeans out who'd work for less.
The Polish plumbers.

EU elites underestimated the many factors which lead to Brexit, just as our iberal elites US can't understand why Trump was elected.
...& it's not nativisn, xenophobia, or racism. Citing those is a failure to come to grips with reality.

That there's economic fear and resentment does not exclude nativism, xenophobia, and racism. These very much coexist and reinforce.

Those were all huge factors in Brexit, just as they were in Trump's election, though I'd suggest that the realities of economic competition from freedom of movement migrants in Britain were far more real there than any actual competition for jobs here from southern border or African migrants. That was BS, but it successfully tapped into by the nativist/racist strain in our country. Populist BS.

Much more relevant in the US were the impacts of globalization and technology, with the multiple decades of failure to sufficiently address these dislocation impacts of these seemingly rapid changes. In addition to the blaming of illegal immigration and "China", searching for an enemy to blame other than one's own incapacity to adapt, to reeducate, re-skill...there's been a big wave of resentment against women and women's equality in the workforce. And indeed, the impacts of women entering the workforce over the past 40 years has probably caused an even greater sense of economic and social dislocation for older males than any other factor. We now have 60:40 women:men at colleges! Significant cultural backlash though less 'acceptable'

But you're right, 'elites' in both countries underestimated the depth of these resentments and prejudices, and the power of the populist to incite intensity of response.

They shouldn't underestimate them again.
However they (we) probably will, as we human beings have a tough time weighing the capacity of others' resentments and prejudices to be powerful motivators if we don't feel them with the same intensity ourselves. How many of us actually thought there'd been a breakthrough with the election of Obama, underestimating the intensity of the backlash? a lot of us...and we didn't need to be Dems or liberals...it's not as if we thought that white supremacy and such bigotries had suddenly dissolved, but we wanted to think only a small minority had an issue with his skin color...we were wrong.

The guy thinks language doesn’t matter, cries about anyone purportedly “putting words in his mouth” then chose to put the prefix of “liberal” in front of elites for the US which somehow means “conservative” elites do understand. Did Paul Ryan and others like Jeff Flake understand? Does Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley understand? Does MTG understand?

It’s stupid, petty and illogical but, hey, he served so he knows better as if he’s a transcendent mind.