Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

[kramerica.inc]

Comparisons to the distant past don't hold much water either IMHO.

Then why did you bring them up ?

Perhaps because the vast majority of us in America, who like to consider ourselves "Americans", are the descendants of people who had no "legal" invitation to be here, indeed most fleeing some form of oppression or famine or destitution in their home country AND/OR seeking their "fortunes" in a land of perceived greater opportunity than their home country. Or are the descendants of slaves. Who among us can really claim to a greater right to be an "American"?

And if we really want to push the 'legal' status nonsense, those Europeans who were first here, indeed who came in droves, certainly had no "legal" basis for being here. For well over 100 years, every darn one of them was here "illegally" from a Native perspective. Still are...

The question was not directed to you. He said that comparisons with distant past don't hold much water,
prompting me to ask why he introduced them if they do not matter.

It is just an irrelevant diversion. Instead of tying yourself in knots trying to rationalize the chaos on our southern border & our inability to control who comes into our country, why don't you just admit you want to open our borders to whoever wants to enter. We always need more cheap labor for our plantation & to better serve us. Instead of enticing all those Haitian migrants from risking their lives on the trek through the jungle in the Darian gap, let's just send a cruise ship to bring them to the US. You've already assured us what good workers they are, just hire supervisors who can speak creole.

If you think legal status in "nonsense", just admit that you think every global citizen should be free to come & go as they please, to reside & be a citizen wherever they choose.

I'm already wracked with guilt that I was born white. Now I have to shoulder even more guilt for being born in the USA. How do I atone for my good fortune ?

The chaos is a function of overly restrictive border policies in the first place. It’s pretty much that simple.

What we need is more people that appreciate this country and not for stupid things like standing and holding our hand over our chests but embracing the principles of this country. That includes being a refuge from tyranny not being tyrannical. Core to our founding. Folks arguing for tighter and tighter border controls are anti American, not kapernick kneeling or such idiocy as some project. Form over function.

Agree with your second sentiment.

But I think the chaos is not just a function of overly restrictive border policies, but rather underly enforced policies for the past 25+ years. ANY policy enforcement is seen as overly restrictive when it's been essentially an open border for as long as I can remember.

I'm for all immigrants from any country. Its good for American society, its good for the labor market, and it's a way to shift the bs, lazy attitude of the country. Want a population that LOVES the country? Let in people who are fleeing persecution and looking to make a better life for their kids and families. Talk about people who appreciate the USA. Even with it's flaws.

My only caveat is to generally vet them for criminal backgrounds. I think immigrants make America awesome. I say, let people raise their hand, get in line to be here, get vetted, and welcome to the US. We have to shut down the open border. No other country in the world allows it. But the vetting and approval has to be a process we can streamline. Make the process shorter and easier so people stop thinking their only hope is to jump the line. No one likes line jumpers.

[MDlaxfan76]

Comparisons to the distant past don't hold much water either IMHO.

Then why did you bring them up ?

Perhaps because the vast majority of us in America, who like to consider ourselves "Americans", are the descendants of people who had no "legal" invitation to be here, indeed most fleeing some form of oppression or famine or destitution in their home country AND/OR seeking their "fortunes" in a land of perceived greater opportunity than their home country. Or are the descendants of slaves. Who among us can really claim to a greater right to be an "American"?

And if we really want to push the 'legal' status nonsense, those Europeans who were first here, indeed who came in droves, certainly had no "legal" basis for being here. For well over 100 years, every darn one of them was here "illegally" from a Native perspective. Still are...

The question was not directed to you. He said that comparisons with distant past don't hold much water,
prompting me to ask why he introduced them if they do not matter.

It is just an irrelevant diversion. Instead of tying yourself in knots trying to rationalize the chaos on our southern border & our inability to control who comes into our country, why don't you just admit you want to open our borders to whoever wants to enter. We always need more cheap labor for our plantation & to better serve us. Instead of enticing all those Haitian migrants from risking their lives on the trek through the jungle in the Darian gap, let's just send a cruise ship to bring them to the US. You've already assured us what good workers they are, just hire supervisors who can speak creole.

If you think legal status in "nonsense", just admit that you think every global citizen should be free to come & go as they please, to reside & be a citizen wherever they choose.

I'm already wracked with guilt that I was born white. Now I have to shoulder even more guilt for being born in the USA. How do I atone for my good fortune ?

The chaos is a function of overly restrictive border policies in the first place. It’s pretty much that simple.

What we need is more people that appreciate this country and not for stupid things like standing and holding our hand over our chests but embracing the principles of this country. That includes being a refuge from tyranny not being tyrannical. Core to our founding. Folks arguing for tighter and tighter border controls are anti American, not kapernick kneeling or such idiocy as some project. Form over function.

+1

The red bolded above is typical of you, Salty...same nativist, racist whine of so many.

And the "plantation" and "speak creole" references are a really weak effort to use race as if an excuse NOT to welcome people of color to America who desperately seek better, safer lives and more opportunity. Again typical play of the nativist, racist hard right.

And the hyperbolic "just admit" is just so much more rhetorical baloney from you.

No, I want us to control access into the country; I'm concerned with drugs, human trafficking, etc....HOWEVER, I do want far, far more immigration than our current rate. Both immigration of those with high skill levels and those seeking asylum from oppression, war and famine.

YES, I want those Haitians to enter our workforce. I'm confident that they, like other such immigrants, will be successful in bringing fresh energy to America.

YES, we desperately need more healthcare workers, more retail workers, more truck drivers, etc. in our country. I want this to be a legal process that requires proven commitment to live and work in the US as productive contributors, a clear path to citizenship.

And yes, I'm confident that just as has been the case with other waves of non-english speaking immigrants coming from such circumstances, within another generation we'll have many business owners, doctors, teachers, technologists, etc. The children of immigrants also disproportionately join our military services. Fresh energy and talent, appreciative of the opportunity to be here.

That's good for our culture, not this nativist baloney.

[Farfromgeneva]

Comparisons to the distant past don't hold much water either IMHO.

Then why did you bring them up ?

Perhaps because the vast majority of us in America, who like to consider ourselves "Americans", are the descendants of people who had no "legal" invitation to be here, indeed most fleeing some form of oppression or famine or destitution in their home country AND/OR seeking their "fortunes" in a land of perceived greater opportunity than their home country. Or are the descendants of slaves. Who among us can really claim to a greater right to be an "American"?

And if we really want to push the 'legal' status nonsense, those Europeans who were first here, indeed who came in droves, certainly had no "legal" basis for being here. For well over 100 years, every darn one of them was here "illegally" from a Native perspective. Still are...

The question was not directed to you. He said that comparisons with distant past don't hold much water,
prompting me to ask why he introduced them if they do not matter.

It is just an irrelevant diversion. Instead of tying yourself in knots trying to rationalize the chaos on our southern border & our inability to control who comes into our country, why don't you just admit you want to open our borders to whoever wants to enter. We always need more cheap labor for our plantation & to better serve us. Instead of enticing all those Haitian migrants from risking their lives on the trek through the jungle in the Darian gap, let's just send a cruise ship to bring them to the US. You've already assured us what good workers they are, just hire supervisors who can speak creole.

If you think legal status in "nonsense", just admit that you think every global citizen should be free to come & go as they please, to reside & be a citizen wherever they choose.

I'm already wracked with guilt that I was born white. Now I have to shoulder even more guilt for being born in the USA. How do I atone for my good fortune ?

The chaos is a function of overly restrictive border policies in the first place. It’s pretty much that simple.

What we need is more people that appreciate this country and not for stupid things like standing and holding our hand over our chests but embracing the principles of this country. That includes being a refuge from tyranny not being tyrannical. Core to our founding. Folks arguing for tighter and tighter border controls are anti American, not kapernick kneeling or such idiocy as some project. Form over function.

Agree with your second sentiment.

But I think the chaos is not just a function of overly restrictive border policies, but rather underly enforced policies for the past 25+ years. ANY policy enforcement is seen as overly restrictive when it's been essentially an open border for as long as I can remember.

I'm for all immigrants from any country. Its good for American society, its good for the labor market, and it's a way to shift the bs, lazy attitude of the country.

My only caveat is to generally vet them for criminal backgrounds. I think immigrants make America awesome. I say, let people raise their hand, get in line to be here, get vetted, and welcome to the US. We have to shut down the open border. No other country in the world allows it. But the vetting and approval has to be a process we can streamline. Make the process shorter and easier so people stop thinking their only hope is to jump the line. No one likes line jumpers.

A kernel of agreement!

[MDlaxfan76]

Comparisons to the distant past don't hold much water either IMHO.

Then why did you bring them up ?

Perhaps because the vast majority of us in America, who like to consider ourselves "Americans", are the descendants of people who had no "legal" invitation to be here, indeed most fleeing some form of oppression or famine or destitution in their home country AND/OR seeking their "fortunes" in a land of perceived greater opportunity than their home country. Or are the descendants of slaves. Who among us can really claim to a greater right to be an "American"?

And if we really want to push the 'legal' status nonsense, those Europeans who were first here, indeed who came in droves, certainly had no "legal" basis for being here. For well over 100 years, every darn one of them was here "illegally" from a Native perspective. Still are...

The question was not directed to you. He said that comparisons with distant past don't hold much water,
prompting me to ask why he introduced them if they do not matter.

It is just an irrelevant diversion. Instead of tying yourself in knots trying to rationalize the chaos on our southern border & our inability to control who comes into our country, why don't you just admit you want to open our borders to whoever wants to enter. We always need more cheap labor for our plantation & to better serve us. Instead of enticing all those Haitian migrants from risking their lives on the trek through the jungle in the Darian gap, let's just send a cruise ship to bring them to the US. You've already assured us what good workers they are, just hire supervisors who can speak creole.

If you think legal status in "nonsense", just admit that you think every global citizen should be free to come & go as they please, to reside & be a citizen wherever they choose.

I'm already wracked with guilt that I was born white. Now I have to shoulder even more guilt for being born in the USA. How do I atone for my good fortune ?

The chaos is a function of overly restrictive border policies in the first place. It’s pretty much that simple.

What we need is more people that appreciate this country and not for stupid things like standing and holding our hand over our chests but embracing the principles of this country. That includes being a refuge from tyranny not being tyrannical. Core to our founding. Folks arguing for tighter and tighter border controls are anti American, not kapernick kneeling or such idiocy as some project. Form over function.

Agree with your second sentiment.

But I think the chaos is not just a function of overly restrictive border policies, but rather underly enforced policies for the past 25+ years. ANY policy enforcement is seen as overly restrictive when it's been essentially an open border for as long as I can remember.

I'm for all immigrants from any country. Its good for American society, its good for the labor market, and it's a way to shift the bs, lazy attitude of the country.

My only caveat is to generally vet them for criminal backgrounds. I think immigrants make America awesome. I say, let people raise their hand, get in line to be here, get vetted, and welcome to the US. We have to shut down the open border. No other country in the world allows it. But the vetting and approval has to be a process we can streamline. Make the process shorter and easier so people stop thinking their only hope is to jump the line. No one likes line jumpers.

Understood, but unless we do increase the amount of immigrants we accept, and make that process much, much more streamlined and responsive, we're going to continue to see enormous pressure on the border and with overstayed visas.

The problem is not that we have demand on the borders, its that we have purposely not met that demand through legal processes. We've had a heavy amount of nativist resistance as well as a complacency of business which is just fine with being able to underpay undocumented workers relative to documented.

I'm just not ok with focusing on border issues as the important problem when it's really that we won't address the 10 million plus undocumented with a legal process and we won't take in far more immigrants annually, legally.

[Farfromgeneva]

Comparisons to the distant past don't hold much water either IMHO.

Then why did you bring them up ?

Perhaps because the vast majority of us in America, who like to consider ourselves "Americans", are the descendants of people who had no "legal" invitation to be here, indeed most fleeing some form of oppression or famine or destitution in their home country AND/OR seeking their "fortunes" in a land of perceived greater opportunity than their home country. Or are the descendants of slaves. Who among us can really claim to a greater right to be an "American"?

And if we really want to push the 'legal' status nonsense, those Europeans who were first here, indeed who came in droves, certainly had no "legal" basis for being here. For well over 100 years, every darn one of them was here "illegally" from a Native perspective. Still are...

The question was not directed to you. He said that comparisons with distant past don't hold much water,
prompting me to ask why he introduced them if they do not matter.

It is just an irrelevant diversion. Instead of tying yourself in knots trying to rationalize the chaos on our southern border & our inability to control who comes into our country, why don't you just admit you want to open our borders to whoever wants to enter. We always need more cheap labor for our plantation & to better serve us. Instead of enticing all those Haitian migrants from risking their lives on the trek through the jungle in the Darian gap, let's just send a cruise ship to bring them to the US. You've already assured us what good workers they are, just hire supervisors who can speak creole.

If you think legal status in "nonsense", just admit that you think every global citizen should be free to come & go as they please, to reside & be a citizen wherever they choose.

I'm already wracked with guilt that I was born white. Now I have to shoulder even more guilt for being born in the USA. How do I atone for my good fortune ?

The chaos is a function of overly restrictive border policies in the first place. It’s pretty much that simple.

What we need is more people that appreciate this country and not for stupid things like standing and holding our hand over our chests but embracing the principles of this country. That includes being a refuge from tyranny not being tyrannical. Core to our founding. Folks arguing for tighter and tighter border controls are anti American, not kapernick kneeling or such idiocy as some project. Form over function.

Agree with your second sentiment.

But I think the chaos is not just a function of overly restrictive border policies, but rather underly enforced policies for the past 25+ years. ANY policy enforcement is seen as overly restrictive when it's been essentially an open border for as long as I can remember.

I'm for all immigrants from any country. Its good for American society, its good for the labor market, and it's a way to shift the bs, lazy attitude of the country.

My only caveat is to generally vet them for criminal backgrounds. I think immigrants make America awesome. I say, let people raise their hand, get in line to be here, get vetted, and welcome to the US. We have to shut down the open border. No other country in the world allows it. But the vetting and approval has to be a process we can streamline. Make the process shorter and easier so people stop thinking their only hope is to jump the line. No one likes line jumpers.

A kernel of agreement! Of course we likely disagree on the degree of vetting - is a misdemeanor for loitering or even small time vandalism a problem if otherwise no flags? But we need to process the line better than TSA and, IMO, allow for true refugee situations where time is of the essence for a line jumper occasional, if in bulk, mechanism.

The first sentence - ok, but if that's true and problematic, isn't the facade of enforcement and the side that's continuosly find the solution to be further closing and restrctiion of numbers and demands to get in all a bit incorrect as a reaction and subseuent approach. I don't know what the policies were 25yrs ago but what hasn't been enforced specifically from way back then, prior to the increasingly restrcitve measures enacted subseeuqently for cheap political points. And how has this hurt us exactly over the past 25yrs other than a once in a million year attack on 9/11 that enforcement probably still wouldn't have caught?

Some of the retorts that "ohh we want more slave labor" are specious, and that's being super kind. It's dumb and pointless. I'm back that quick.

I once caught a vandalism charge because we were playing football a few days before a close friends wedding at midnight on block island in RI, perhaps a bit inebriated, and I ran through a wood gate to catch a pass that was a bit overthrown at a nearby bar/inn and happened to be a nearby cop who was short, stocky and full of himself, shaved head, clearly had tried and failed to pass the state trooper and/or FBI tests and chip on shoulder who basically abused be (dislocated my shoulder and I did not resist, a friend or two may have suggested he was a hack but they weren't arrested and he took it out on me). It was dropped like it was super hot and I just paid the $500 (for a gate!) and apologized and no record exists-they also made it pretty easy where I didn't even have to come back just send a check and cleared it super fast on condition I didn't pursue related issues to the cop in case anyone is curious - working for a street shop at the time I didn't need the publicity. Conversely I've paid my taxes, generated income, been a good neighbor and even, gasp, churchgoer even if I worry I'm going to burn in flames every time I walk through the door and given time and money to real charities (not just my college or BS like wounded warrior & NRA who picks donors off to grease the founder and executives pockets but like affecting local poverty and education where a divide/gap exists). Would I not be allowed in? Actually don't answer that!

[Farfromgeneva]

Comparisons to the distant past don't hold much water either IMHO.

Then why did you bring them up ?

Perhaps because the vast majority of us in America, who like to consider ourselves "Americans", are the descendants of people who had no "legal" invitation to be here, indeed most fleeing some form of oppression or famine or destitution in their home country AND/OR seeking their "fortunes" in a land of perceived greater opportunity than their home country. Or are the descendants of slaves. Who among us can really claim to a greater right to be an "American"?

And if we really want to push the 'legal' status nonsense, those Europeans who were first here, indeed who came in droves, certainly had no "legal" basis for being here. For well over 100 years, every darn one of them was here "illegally" from a Native perspective. Still are...

The question was not directed to you. He said that comparisons with distant past don't hold much water,
prompting me to ask why he introduced them if they do not matter.

It is just an irrelevant diversion. Instead of tying yourself in knots trying to rationalize the chaos on our southern border & our inability to control who comes into our country, why don't you just admit you want to open our borders to whoever wants to enter. We always need more cheap labor for our plantation & to better serve us. Instead of enticing all those Haitian migrants from risking their lives on the trek through the jungle in the Darian gap, let's just send a cruise ship to bring them to the US. You've already assured us what good workers they are, just hire supervisors who can speak creole.

If you think legal status in "nonsense", just admit that you think every global citizen should be free to come & go as they please, to reside & be a citizen wherever they choose.

I'm already wracked with guilt that I was born white. Now I have to shoulder even more guilt for being born in the USA. How do I atone for my good fortune ?

The chaos is a function of overly restrictive border policies in the first place. It’s pretty much that simple.

What we need is more people that appreciate this country and not for stupid things like standing and holding our hand over our chests but embracing the principles of this country. That includes being a refuge from tyranny not being tyrannical. Core to our founding. Folks arguing for tighter and tighter border controls are anti American, not kapernick kneeling or such idiocy as some project. Form over function.

+1

The red bolded above is typical of you, Salty...same nativist, racist whine of so many.

And the "plantation" and "speak creole" references are a really weak effort to use race as if an excuse NOT to welcome people of color to America who desperately seek better, safer lives and more opportunity. Again typical play of the nativist, racist hard right.

And the hyperbolic "just admit" is just so much more rhetorical baloney from you.

No, I want us to control access into the country; I'm concerned with drugs, human trafficking, etc....HOWEVER, I do want far, far more immigration than our current rate. Both immigration of those with high skill levels and those seeking asylum from oppression, war and famine.

YES, I want those Haitians to enter our workforce. I'm confident that they, like other such immigrants, will be successful in bringing fresh energy to America.

YES, we desperately need more healthcare workers, more retail workers, more truck drivers, etc. in our country. I want this to be a legal process that requires proven commitment to live and work in the US as productive contributors, a clear path to citizenship.

And yes, I'm confident that just as has been the case with other waves of non-english speaking immigrants coming from such circumstances, within another generation we'll have many business owners, doctors, teachers, technologists, etc. The children of immigrants also disproportionately join our military services. Fresh energy and talent, appreciative of the opportunity to be here.

That's good for our culture, not this nativist baloney.

I know some of my pop culture scares the bejeezus out of you but see if you can handle this 2min of an old south park episode. Put the coffee down first however.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZB0qsJuRDo

[Farfromgeneva]

Comparisons to the distant past don't hold much water either IMHO.

Then why did you bring them up ?

Perhaps because the vast majority of us in America, who like to consider ourselves "Americans", are the descendants of people who had no "legal" invitation to be here, indeed most fleeing some form of oppression or famine or destitution in their home country AND/OR seeking their "fortunes" in a land of perceived greater opportunity than their home country. Or are the descendants of slaves. Who among us can really claim to a greater right to be an "American"?

And if we really want to push the 'legal' status nonsense, those Europeans who were first here, indeed who came in droves, certainly had no "legal" basis for being here. For well over 100 years, every darn one of them was here "illegally" from a Native perspective. Still are...

The question was not directed to you. He said that comparisons with distant past don't hold much water,
prompting me to ask why he introduced them if they do not matter.

It is just an irrelevant diversion. Instead of tying yourself in knots trying to rationalize the chaos on our southern border & our inability to control who comes into our country, why don't you just admit you want to open our borders to whoever wants to enter. We always need more cheap labor for our plantation & to better serve us. Instead of enticing all those Haitian migrants from risking their lives on the trek through the jungle in the Darian gap, let's just send a cruise ship to bring them to the US. You've already assured us what good workers they are, just hire supervisors who can speak creole.

If you think legal status in "nonsense", just admit that you think every global citizen should be free to come & go as they please, to reside & be a citizen wherever they choose.

I'm already wracked with guilt that I was born white. Now I have to shoulder even more guilt for being born in the USA. How do I atone for my good fortune ?

The chaos is a function of overly restrictive border policies in the first place. It’s pretty much that simple.

What we need is more people that appreciate this country and not for stupid things like standing and holding our hand over our chests but embracing the principles of this country. That includes being a refuge from tyranny not being tyrannical. Core to our founding. Folks arguing for tighter and tighter border controls are anti American, not kapernick kneeling or such idiocy as some project. Form over function.

Agree with your second sentiment.

But I think the chaos is not just a function of overly restrictive border policies, but rather underly enforced policies for the past 25+ years. ANY policy enforcement is seen as overly restrictive when it's been essentially an open border for as long as I can remember.

I'm for all immigrants from any country. Its good for American society, its good for the labor market, and it's a way to shift the bs, lazy attitude of the country.

My only caveat is to generally vet them for criminal backgrounds. I think immigrants make America awesome. I say, let people raise their hand, get in line to be here, get vetted, and welcome to the US. We have to shut down the open border. No other country in the world allows it. But the vetting and approval has to be a process we can streamline. Make the process shorter and easier so people stop thinking their only hope is to jump the line. No one likes line jumpers.

Understood, but unless we do increase the amount of immigrants we accept, and make that process much, much more streamlined and responsive, we're going to continue to see enormous pressure on the border and with overstayed visas.

The problem is not that we have demand on the borders, its that we have purposely not met that demand through legal processes. We've had a heavy amount of nativist resistance as well as a complacency of business which is just fine with being able to underpay undocumented workers relative to documented.

I'm just not ok with focusing on border issues as the important problem when it's really that we won't address the 10 million plus undocumented with a legal process and we won't take in far more immigrants annually, legally.

Didn't George W Bush support a process to convert the undocumented?

[Typical Lax Dad]

Comparisons to the distant past don't hold much water either IMHO.

Then why did you bring them up ?

Perhaps because the vast majority of us in America, who like to consider ourselves "Americans", are the descendants of people who had no "legal" invitation to be here, indeed most fleeing some form of oppression or famine or destitution in their home country AND/OR seeking their "fortunes" in a land of perceived greater opportunity than their home country. Or are the descendants of slaves. Who among us can really claim to a greater right to be an "American"?

And if we really want to push the 'legal' status nonsense, those Europeans who were first here, indeed who came in droves, certainly had no "legal" basis for being here. For well over 100 years, every darn one of them was here "illegally" from a Native perspective. Still are...

The question was not directed to you. He said that comparisons with distant past don't hold much water,
prompting me to ask why he introduced them if they do not matter.

It is just an irrelevant diversion. Instead of tying yourself in knots trying to rationalize the chaos on our southern border & our inability to control who comes into our country, why don't you just admit you want to open our borders to whoever wants to enter. We always need more cheap labor for our plantation & to better serve us. Instead of enticing all those Haitian migrants from risking their lives on the trek through the jungle in the Darian gap, let's just send a cruise ship to bring them to the US. You've already assured us what good workers they are, just hire supervisors who can speak creole.

If you think legal status in "nonsense", just admit that you think every global citizen should be free to come & go as they please, to reside & be a citizen wherever they choose.

I'm already wracked with guilt that I was born white. Now I have to shoulder even more guilt for being born in the USA. How do I atone for my good fortune ?

The chaos is a function of overly restrictive border policies in the first place. It’s pretty much that simple.

What we need is more people that appreciate this country and not for stupid things like standing and holding our hand over our chests but embracing the principles of this country. That includes being a refuge from tyranny not being tyrannical. Core to our founding. Folks arguing for tighter and tighter border controls are anti American, not kapernick kneeling or such idiocy as some project. Form over function.

Agree with your second sentiment.

But I think the chaos is not just a function of overly restrictive border policies, but rather underly enforced policies for the past 25+ years. ANY policy enforcement is seen as overly restrictive when it's been essentially an open border for as long as I can remember.

I'm for all immigrants from any country. Its good for American society, its good for the labor market, and it's a way to shift the bs, lazy attitude of the country. Want a population that LOVES the country? Let in people who are fleeing persecution and looking to make a better life for their kids and families. Talk about people who appreciate the USA. Even with it's flaws.

My only caveat is to generally vet them for criminal backgrounds. I think immigrants make America awesome. I say, let people raise their hand, get in line to be here, get vetted, and welcome to the US. We have to shut down the open border. No other country in the world allows it. But the vetting and approval has to be a process we can streamline. Make the process shorter and easier so people stop thinking their only hope is to jump the line. No one likes line jumpers.

https://www.cato.org/blog/deportation-r ... erspective

Open Border?

[Farfromgeneva]

Seems clear this was a reaction to 9/11 from what I see there

[MDlaxfan76]

Comparisons to the distant past don't hold much water either IMHO.

Then why did you bring them up ?

Perhaps because the vast majority of us in America, who like to consider ourselves "Americans", are the descendants of people who had no "legal" invitation to be here, indeed most fleeing some form of oppression or famine or destitution in their home country AND/OR seeking their "fortunes" in a land of perceived greater opportunity than their home country. Or are the descendants of slaves. Who among us can really claim to a greater right to be an "American"?

And if we really want to push the 'legal' status nonsense, those Europeans who were first here, indeed who came in droves, certainly had no "legal" basis for being here. For well over 100 years, every darn one of them was here "illegally" from a Native perspective. Still are...

The question was not directed to you. He said that comparisons with distant past don't hold much water,
prompting me to ask why he introduced them if they do not matter.

It is just an irrelevant diversion. Instead of tying yourself in knots trying to rationalize the chaos on our southern border & our inability to control who comes into our country, why don't you just admit you want to open our borders to whoever wants to enter. We always need more cheap labor for our plantation & to better serve us. Instead of enticing all those Haitian migrants from risking their lives on the trek through the jungle in the Darian gap, let's just send a cruise ship to bring them to the US. You've already assured us what good workers they are, just hire supervisors who can speak creole.

If you think legal status in "nonsense", just admit that you think every global citizen should be free to come & go as they please, to reside & be a citizen wherever they choose.

I'm already wracked with guilt that I was born white. Now I have to shoulder even more guilt for being born in the USA. How do I atone for my good fortune ?

The chaos is a function of overly restrictive border policies in the first place. It’s pretty much that simple.

What we need is more people that appreciate this country and not for stupid things like standing and holding our hand over our chests but embracing the principles of this country. That includes being a refuge from tyranny not being tyrannical. Core to our founding. Folks arguing for tighter and tighter border controls are anti American, not kapernick kneeling or such idiocy as some project. Form over function.

+1

The red bolded above is typical of you, Salty...same nativist, racist whine of so many.

And the "plantation" and "speak creole" references are a really weak effort to use race as if an excuse NOT to welcome people of color to America who desperately seek better, safer lives and more opportunity. Again typical play of the nativist, racist hard right.

And the hyperbolic "just admit" is just so much more rhetorical baloney from you.

No, I want us to control access into the country; I'm concerned with drugs, human trafficking, etc....HOWEVER, I do want far, far more immigration than our current rate. Both immigration of those with high skill levels and those seeking asylum from oppression, war and famine.

YES, I want those Haitians to enter our workforce. I'm confident that they, like other such immigrants, will be successful in bringing fresh energy to America.

YES, we desperately need more healthcare workers, more retail workers, more truck drivers, etc. in our country. I want this to be a legal process that requires proven commitment to live and work in the US as productive contributors, a clear path to citizenship.

And yes, I'm confident that just as has been the case with other waves of non-english speaking immigrants coming from such circumstances, within another generation we'll have many business owners, doctors, teachers, technologists, etc. The children of immigrants also disproportionately join our military services. Fresh energy and talent, appreciative of the opportunity to be here.

That's good for our culture, not this nativist baloney.

I know some of my pop culture scares the bejeezus out of you but see if you can handle this 2min of an old south park episode. Put the coffee down first however.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZB0qsJuRDo

ouch, and prescient of the recent moves forced on the NCAA !

[Farfromgeneva]

Comparisons to the distant past don't hold much water either IMHO.

Then why did you bring them up ?

Perhaps because the vast majority of us in America, who like to consider ourselves "Americans", are the descendants of people who had no "legal" invitation to be here, indeed most fleeing some form of oppression or famine or destitution in their home country AND/OR seeking their "fortunes" in a land of perceived greater opportunity than their home country. Or are the descendants of slaves. Who among us can really claim to a greater right to be an "American"?

And if we really want to push the 'legal' status nonsense, those Europeans who were first here, indeed who came in droves, certainly had no "legal" basis for being here. For well over 100 years, every darn one of them was here "illegally" from a Native perspective. Still are...

The question was not directed to you. He said that comparisons with distant past don't hold much water,
prompting me to ask why he introduced them if they do not matter.

It is just an irrelevant diversion. Instead of tying yourself in knots trying to rationalize the chaos on our southern border & our inability to control who comes into our country, why don't you just admit you want to open our borders to whoever wants to enter. We always need more cheap labor for our plantation & to better serve us. Instead of enticing all those Haitian migrants from risking their lives on the trek through the jungle in the Darian gap, let's just send a cruise ship to bring them to the US. You've already assured us what good workers they are, just hire supervisors who can speak creole.

If you think legal status in "nonsense", just admit that you think every global citizen should be free to come & go as they please, to reside & be a citizen wherever they choose.

I'm already wracked with guilt that I was born white. Now I have to shoulder even more guilt for being born in the USA. How do I atone for my good fortune ?

The chaos is a function of overly restrictive border policies in the first place. It’s pretty much that simple.

What we need is more people that appreciate this country and not for stupid things like standing and holding our hand over our chests but embracing the principles of this country. That includes being a refuge from tyranny not being tyrannical. Core to our founding. Folks arguing for tighter and tighter border controls are anti American, not kapernick kneeling or such idiocy as some project. Form over function.

+1

The red bolded above is typical of you, Salty...same nativist, racist whine of so many.

And the "plantation" and "speak creole" references are a really weak effort to use race as if an excuse NOT to welcome people of color to America who desperately seek better, safer lives and more opportunity. Again typical play of the nativist, racist hard right.

And the hyperbolic "just admit" is just so much more rhetorical baloney from you.

No, I want us to control access into the country; I'm concerned with drugs, human trafficking, etc....HOWEVER, I do want far, far more immigration than our current rate. Both immigration of those with high skill levels and those seeking asylum from oppression, war and famine.

YES, I want those Haitians to enter our workforce. I'm confident that they, like other such immigrants, will be successful in bringing fresh energy to America.

YES, we desperately need more healthcare workers, more retail workers, more truck drivers, etc. in our country. I want this to be a legal process that requires proven commitment to live and work in the US as productive contributors, a clear path to citizenship.

And yes, I'm confident that just as has been the case with other waves of non-english speaking immigrants coming from such circumstances, within another generation we'll have many business owners, doctors, teachers, technologists, etc. The children of immigrants also disproportionately join our military services. Fresh energy and talent, appreciative of the opportunity to be here.

That's good for our culture, not this nativist baloney.

I know some of my pop culture scares the bejeezus out of you but see if you can handle this 2min of an old south park episode. Put the coffee down first however.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZB0qsJuRDo

ouch, and prescient of the recent moves forced on the NCAA !

Probably close to ten years old now I think, more than 5-6 for sure. The show is rough but they hit the nail on the head and are agnostic equal opportunity offenders.

[MDlaxfan76]

Comparisons to the distant past don't hold much water either IMHO.

Then why did you bring them up ?

Perhaps because the vast majority of us in America, who like to consider ourselves "Americans", are the descendants of people who had no "legal" invitation to be here, indeed most fleeing some form of oppression or famine or destitution in their home country AND/OR seeking their "fortunes" in a land of perceived greater opportunity than their home country. Or are the descendants of slaves. Who among us can really claim to a greater right to be an "American"?

And if we really want to push the 'legal' status nonsense, those Europeans who were first here, indeed who came in droves, certainly had no "legal" basis for being here. For well over 100 years, every darn one of them was here "illegally" from a Native perspective. Still are...

The question was not directed to you. He said that comparisons with distant past don't hold much water,
prompting me to ask why he introduced them if they do not matter.

It is just an irrelevant diversion. Instead of tying yourself in knots trying to rationalize the chaos on our southern border & our inability to control who comes into our country, why don't you just admit you want to open our borders to whoever wants to enter. We always need more cheap labor for our plantation & to better serve us. Instead of enticing all those Haitian migrants from risking their lives on the trek through the jungle in the Darian gap, let's just send a cruise ship to bring them to the US. You've already assured us what good workers they are, just hire supervisors who can speak creole.

If you think legal status in "nonsense", just admit that you think every global citizen should be free to come & go as they please, to reside & be a citizen wherever they choose.

I'm already wracked with guilt that I was born white. Now I have to shoulder even more guilt for being born in the USA. How do I atone for my good fortune ?

The chaos is a function of overly restrictive border policies in the first place. It’s pretty much that simple.

What we need is more people that appreciate this country and not for stupid things like standing and holding our hand over our chests but embracing the principles of this country. That includes being a refuge from tyranny not being tyrannical. Core to our founding. Folks arguing for tighter and tighter border controls are anti American, not kapernick kneeling or such idiocy as some project. Form over function.

Agree with your second sentiment.

But I think the chaos is not just a function of overly restrictive border policies, but rather underly enforced policies for the past 25+ years. ANY policy enforcement is seen as overly restrictive when it's been essentially an open border for as long as I can remember.

I'm for all immigrants from any country. Its good for American society, its good for the labor market, and it's a way to shift the bs, lazy attitude of the country.

My only caveat is to generally vet them for criminal backgrounds. I think immigrants make America awesome. I say, let people raise their hand, get in line to be here, get vetted, and welcome to the US. We have to shut down the open border. No other country in the world allows it. But the vetting and approval has to be a process we can streamline. Make the process shorter and easier so people stop thinking their only hope is to jump the line. No one likes line jumpers.

Understood, but unless we do increase the amount of immigrants we accept, and make that process much, much more streamlined and responsive, we're going to continue to see enormous pressure on the border and with overstayed visas.

The problem is not that we have demand on the borders, its that we have purposely not met that demand through legal processes. We've had a heavy amount of nativist resistance as well as a complacency of business which is just fine with being able to underpay undocumented workers relative to documented.

I'm just not ok with focusing on border issues as the important problem when it's really that we won't address the 10 million plus undocumented with a legal process and we won't take in far more immigrants annually, legally.

Didn't George W Bush support a process to convert the undocumented?

Yup, but he was shouted down by the right wing of the GOP.
He was right, they were wrong...and what a different GOP we'd be had we taken that tack.

[MDlaxfan76]

Comparisons to the distant past don't hold much water either IMHO.

Then why did you bring them up ?

Perhaps because the vast majority of us in America, who like to consider ourselves "Americans", are the descendants of people who had no "legal" invitation to be here, indeed most fleeing some form of oppression or famine or destitution in their home country AND/OR seeking their "fortunes" in a land of perceived greater opportunity than their home country. Or are the descendants of slaves. Who among us can really claim to a greater right to be an "American"?

And if we really want to push the 'legal' status nonsense, those Europeans who were first here, indeed who came in droves, certainly had no "legal" basis for being here. For well over 100 years, every darn one of them was here "illegally" from a Native perspective. Still are...

The question was not directed to you. He said that comparisons with distant past don't hold much water,
prompting me to ask why he introduced them if they do not matter.

It is just an irrelevant diversion. Instead of tying yourself in knots trying to rationalize the chaos on our southern border & our inability to control who comes into our country, why don't you just admit you want to open our borders to whoever wants to enter. We always need more cheap labor for our plantation & to better serve us. Instead of enticing all those Haitian migrants from risking their lives on the trek through the jungle in the Darian gap, let's just send a cruise ship to bring them to the US. You've already assured us what good workers they are, just hire supervisors who can speak creole.

If you think legal status in "nonsense", just admit that you think every global citizen should be free to come & go as they please, to reside & be a citizen wherever they choose.

I'm already wracked with guilt that I was born white. Now I have to shoulder even more guilt for being born in the USA. How do I atone for my good fortune ?

The chaos is a function of overly restrictive border policies in the first place. It’s pretty much that simple.

What we need is more people that appreciate this country and not for stupid things like standing and holding our hand over our chests but embracing the principles of this country. That includes being a refuge from tyranny not being tyrannical. Core to our founding. Folks arguing for tighter and tighter border controls are anti American, not kapernick kneeling or such idiocy as some project. Form over function.

+1

The red bolded above is typical of you, Salty...same nativist, racist whine of so many.

And the "plantation" and "speak creole" references are a really weak effort to use race as if an excuse NOT to welcome people of color to America who desperately seek better, safer lives and more opportunity. Again typical play of the nativist, racist hard right.

And the hyperbolic "just admit" is just so much more rhetorical baloney from you.

No, I want us to control access into the country; I'm concerned with drugs, human trafficking, etc....HOWEVER, I do want far, far more immigration than our current rate. Both immigration of those with high skill levels and those seeking asylum from oppression, war and famine.

YES, I want those Haitians to enter our workforce. I'm confident that they, like other such immigrants, will be successful in bringing fresh energy to America.

YES, we desperately need more healthcare workers, more retail workers, more truck drivers, etc. in our country. I want this to be a legal process that requires proven commitment to live and work in the US as productive contributors, a clear path to citizenship.

And yes, I'm confident that just as has been the case with other waves of non-english speaking immigrants coming from such circumstances, within another generation we'll have many business owners, doctors, teachers, technologists, etc. The children of immigrants also disproportionately join our military services. Fresh energy and talent, appreciative of the opportunity to be here.

That's good for our culture, not this nativist baloney.

I know some of my pop culture scares the bejeezus out of you but see if you can handle this 2min of an old south park episode. Put the coffee down first however.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZB0qsJuRDo

ouch, and prescient of the recent moves forced on the NCAA !

Probably close to ten years old now I think, more than 5-6 for sure. The show is rough but they hit the nail on the head and are agnostic equal opportunity offenders.

2011

[Typical Lax Dad]

Seems clear this was a reaction to 9/11 from what I see there

Waived ‘em through

[Typical Lax Dad]

[Kismet]

Comparisons to the distant past don't hold much water either IMHO.

Then why did you bring them up ?

Perhaps because the vast majority of us in America, who like to consider ourselves "Americans", are the descendants of people who had no "legal" invitation to be here, indeed most fleeing some form of oppression or famine or destitution in their home country AND/OR seeking their "fortunes" in a land of perceived greater opportunity than their home country. Or are the descendants of slaves. Who among us can really claim to a greater right to be an "American"?

And if we really want to push the 'legal' status nonsense, those Europeans who were first here, indeed who came in droves, certainly had no "legal" basis for being here. For well over 100 years, every darn one of them was here "illegally" from a Native perspective. Still are...

The question was not directed to you. He said that comparisons with distant past don't hold much water,
prompting me to ask why he introduced them if they do not matter.

It is just an irrelevant diversion. Instead of tying yourself in knots trying to rationalize the chaos on our southern border & our inability to control who comes into our country, why don't you just admit you want to open our borders to whoever wants to enter. We always need more cheap labor for our plantation & to better serve us. Instead of enticing all those Haitian migrants from risking their lives on the trek through the jungle in the Darian gap, let's just send a cruise ship to bring them to the US. You've already assured us what good workers they are, just hire supervisors who can speak creole.

If you think legal status in "nonsense", just admit that you think every global citizen should be free to come & go as they please, to reside & be a citizen wherever they choose.

I'm already wracked with guilt that I was born white. Now I have to shoulder even more guilt for being born in the USA. How do I atone for my good fortune ?

The chaos is a function of overly restrictive border policies in the first place. It’s pretty much that simple.

What we need is more people that appreciate this country and not for stupid things like standing and holding our hand over our chests but embracing the principles of this country. That includes being a refuge from tyranny not being tyrannical. Core to our founding. Folks arguing for tighter and tighter border controls are anti American, not kapernick kneeling or such idiocy as some project. Form over function.

Agree with your second sentiment.

But I think the chaos is not just a function of overly restrictive border policies, but rather underly enforced policies for the past 25+ years. ANY policy enforcement is seen as overly restrictive when it's been essentially an open border for as long as I can remember.

I'm for all immigrants from any country. Its good for American society, its good for the labor market, and it's a way to shift the bs, lazy attitude of the country. Want a population that LOVES the country? Let in people who are fleeing persecution and looking to make a better life for their kids and families. Talk about people who appreciate the USA. Even with it's flaws.

My only caveat is to generally vet them for criminal backgrounds. I think immigrants make America awesome. I say, let people raise their hand, get in line to be here, get vetted, and welcome to the US. We have to shut down the open border. No other country in the world allows it. But the vetting and approval has to be a process we can streamline. Make the process shorter and easier so people stop thinking their only hope is to jump the line. No one likes line jumpers.

Agreed on vetting. I'm not so sure that the open border characterization is, in fact, the case. There are many countries where economic migration creates similar situations but would not characterize as open borders in those places as well as here. Ask Turkey and the Europeans about migration from the Middle East and Africa. Most of those migrants are being assimilated and not sent back. Same will be true in Asia now with Afghan refugees along with those fleeing Myanmar and Uighurs fleeing Chinese persecution. Most of the Haitians in this case had already fled to other countries in South and Central America since 2010.

[Farfromgeneva]

Comparisons to the distant past don't hold much water either IMHO.

Then why did you bring them up ?

Perhaps because the vast majority of us in America, who like to consider ourselves "Americans", are the descendants of people who had no "legal" invitation to be here, indeed most fleeing some form of oppression or famine or destitution in their home country AND/OR seeking their "fortunes" in a land of perceived greater opportunity than their home country. Or are the descendants of slaves. Who among us can really claim to a greater right to be an "American"?

And if we really want to push the 'legal' status nonsense, those Europeans who were first here, indeed who came in droves, certainly had no "legal" basis for being here. For well over 100 years, every darn one of them was here "illegally" from a Native perspective. Still are...

The question was not directed to you. He said that comparisons with distant past don't hold much water,
prompting me to ask why he introduced them if they do not matter.

It is just an irrelevant diversion. Instead of tying yourself in knots trying to rationalize the chaos on our southern border & our inability to control who comes into our country, why don't you just admit you want to open our borders to whoever wants to enter. We always need more cheap labor for our plantation & to better serve us. Instead of enticing all those Haitian migrants from risking their lives on the trek through the jungle in the Darian gap, let's just send a cruise ship to bring them to the US. You've already assured us what good workers they are, just hire supervisors who can speak creole.

If you think legal status in "nonsense", just admit that you think every global citizen should be free to come & go as they please, to reside & be a citizen wherever they choose.

I'm already wracked with guilt that I was born white. Now I have to shoulder even more guilt for being born in the USA. How do I atone for my good fortune ?

The chaos is a function of overly restrictive border policies in the first place. It’s pretty much that simple.

What we need is more people that appreciate this country and not for stupid things like standing and holding our hand over our chests but embracing the principles of this country. That includes being a refuge from tyranny not being tyrannical. Core to our founding. Folks arguing for tighter and tighter border controls are anti American, not kapernick kneeling or such idiocy as some project. Form over function.

Agree with your second sentiment.

But I think the chaos is not just a function of overly restrictive border policies, but rather underly enforced policies for the past 25+ years. ANY policy enforcement is seen as overly restrictive when it's been essentially an open border for as long as I can remember.

I'm for all immigrants from any country. Its good for American society, its good for the labor market, and it's a way to shift the bs, lazy attitude of the country. Want a population that LOVES the country? Let in people who are fleeing persecution and looking to make a better life for their kids and families. Talk about people who appreciate the USA. Even with it's flaws.

My only caveat is to generally vet them for criminal backgrounds. I think immigrants make America awesome. I say, let people raise their hand, get in line to be here, get vetted, and welcome to the US. We have to shut down the open border. No other country in the world allows it. But the vetting and approval has to be a process we can streamline. Make the process shorter and easier so people stop thinking their only hope is to jump the line. No one likes line jumpers.

Agreed on vetting. I'm not so sure that the open border characterization is, in fact, the case. There are many countries where economic migration creates similar situations but would not characterize as open borders in those places as well as here. Ask Turkey and the Europeans about migration from the Middle East and Africa. Most of those migrants are being assimilated and not sent back. Same will be true in Asia now with Afghan refugees along with those fleeing Myanmar and Uighurs fleeing Chinese persecution. Most of the Haitians in this case had already fled to other countries in South and Central America since 2010.

I'm not so sure Europe assimilates their immigrants that well. Denmark has ghettos and a lot of distaste for Turkish who make a decent and affordable ham pizza. Spain can't wait to send them Moroccans back, etc.

[Kismet]

Comparisons to the distant past don't hold much water either IMHO.

Then why did you bring them up ?

Perhaps because the vast majority of us in America, who like to consider ourselves "Americans", are the descendants of people who had no "legal" invitation to be here, indeed most fleeing some form of oppression or famine or destitution in their home country AND/OR seeking their "fortunes" in a land of perceived greater opportunity than their home country. Or are the descendants of slaves. Who among us can really claim to a greater right to be an "American"?

And if we really want to push the 'legal' status nonsense, those Europeans who were first here, indeed who came in droves, certainly had no "legal" basis for being here. For well over 100 years, every darn one of them was here "illegally" from a Native perspective. Still are...

The question was not directed to you. He said that comparisons with distant past don't hold much water,
prompting me to ask why he introduced them if they do not matter.

It is just an irrelevant diversion. Instead of tying yourself in knots trying to rationalize the chaos on our southern border & our inability to control who comes into our country, why don't you just admit you want to open our borders to whoever wants to enter. We always need more cheap labor for our plantation & to better serve us. Instead of enticing all those Haitian migrants from risking their lives on the trek through the jungle in the Darian gap, let's just send a cruise ship to bring them to the US. You've already assured us what good workers they are, just hire supervisors who can speak creole.

If you think legal status in "nonsense", just admit that you think every global citizen should be free to come & go as they please, to reside & be a citizen wherever they choose.

I'm already wracked with guilt that I was born white. Now I have to shoulder even more guilt for being born in the USA. How do I atone for my good fortune ?

The chaos is a function of overly restrictive border policies in the first place. It’s pretty much that simple.

What we need is more people that appreciate this country and not for stupid things like standing and holding our hand over our chests but embracing the principles of this country. That includes being a refuge from tyranny not being tyrannical. Core to our founding. Folks arguing for tighter and tighter border controls are anti American, not kapernick kneeling or such idiocy as some project. Form over function.

Agree with your second sentiment.

But I think the chaos is not just a function of overly restrictive border policies, but rather underly enforced policies for the past 25+ years. ANY policy enforcement is seen as overly restrictive when it's been essentially an open border for as long as I can remember.

I'm for all immigrants from any country. Its good for American society, its good for the labor market, and it's a way to shift the bs, lazy attitude of the country. Want a population that LOVES the country? Let in people who are fleeing persecution and looking to make a better life for their kids and families. Talk about people who appreciate the USA. Even with it's flaws.

My only caveat is to generally vet them for criminal backgrounds. I think immigrants make America awesome. I say, let people raise their hand, get in line to be here, get vetted, and welcome to the US. We have to shut down the open border. No other country in the world allows it. But the vetting and approval has to be a process we can streamline. Make the process shorter and easier so people stop thinking their only hope is to jump the line. No one likes line jumpers.

Agreed on vetting. I'm not so sure that the open border characterization is, in fact, the case. There are many countries where economic migration creates similar situations but would not characterize as open borders in those places as well as here. Ask Turkey and the Europeans about migration from the Middle East and Africa. Most of those migrants are being assimilated and not sent back. Same will be true in Asia now with Afghan refugees along with those fleeing Myanmar and Uighurs fleeing Chinese persecution. Most of the Haitians in this case had already fled to other countries in South and Central America since 2010.

I'm not so sure Europe assimilates their immigrants that well. Denmark has ghettos and a lot of distaste for Turkish who make a decent and affordable ham pizza. Spain can't wait to send them Moroccans back, etc.

I didn't say that they were happy about it. I only characterized the migration there as similar to migration in this hemisphere. Not all migrants are being returned to their countries of origin. In fact, most are not repatriated. Same here.

As I previously mentioned, the employers who are using illegals as cheap labor are as large a part of the problem as the migrants. We don't enforce that portion of the current law either and few, if any, of the politicians call that out at all.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Comparisons to the distant past don't hold much water either IMHO.

Then why did you bring them up ?

Perhaps because the vast majority of us in America, who like to consider ourselves "Americans", are the descendants of people who had no "legal" invitation to be here, indeed most fleeing some form of oppression or famine or destitution in their home country AND/OR seeking their "fortunes" in a land of perceived greater opportunity than their home country. Or are the descendants of slaves. Who among us can really claim to a greater right to be an "American"?

And if we really want to push the 'legal' status nonsense, those Europeans who were first here, indeed who came in droves, certainly had no "legal" basis for being here. For well over 100 years, every darn one of them was here "illegally" from a Native perspective. Still are...

The question was not directed to you. He said that comparisons with distant past don't hold much water,
prompting me to ask why he introduced them if they do not matter.

It is just an irrelevant diversion. Instead of tying yourself in knots trying to rationalize the chaos on our southern border & our inability to control who comes into our country, why don't you just admit you want to open our borders to whoever wants to enter. We always need more cheap labor for our plantation & to better serve us. Instead of enticing all those Haitian migrants from risking their lives on the trek through the jungle in the Darian gap, let's just send a cruise ship to bring them to the US. You've already assured us what good workers they are, just hire supervisors who can speak creole.

If you think legal status in "nonsense", just admit that you think every global citizen should be free to come & go as they please, to reside & be a citizen wherever they choose.

I'm already wracked with guilt that I was born white. Now I have to shoulder even more guilt for being born in the USA. How do I atone for my good fortune ?

The chaos is a function of overly restrictive border policies in the first place. It’s pretty much that simple.

What we need is more people that appreciate this country and not for stupid things like standing and holding our hand over our chests but embracing the principles of this country. That includes being a refuge from tyranny not being tyrannical. Core to our founding. Folks arguing for tighter and tighter border controls are anti American, not kapernick kneeling or such idiocy as some project. Form over function.

Agree with your second sentiment.

But I think the chaos is not just a function of overly restrictive border policies, but rather underly enforced policies for the past 25+ years. ANY policy enforcement is seen as overly restrictive when it's been essentially an open border for as long as I can remember.

I'm for all immigrants from any country. Its good for American society, its good for the labor market, and it's a way to shift the bs, lazy attitude of the country. Want a population that LOVES the country? Let in people who are fleeing persecution and looking to make a better life for their kids and families. Talk about people who appreciate the USA. Even with it's flaws.

My only caveat is to generally vet them for criminal backgrounds. I think immigrants make America awesome. I say, let people raise their hand, get in line to be here, get vetted, and welcome to the US. We have to shut down the open border. No other country in the world allows it. But the vetting and approval has to be a process we can streamline. Make the process shorter and easier so people stop thinking their only hope is to jump the line. No one likes line jumpers.

Agreed on vetting. I'm not so sure that the open border characterization is, in fact, the case. There are many countries where economic migration creates similar situations but would not characterize as open borders in those places as well as here. Ask Turkey and the Europeans about migration from the Middle East and Africa. Most of those migrants are being assimilated and not sent back. Same will be true in Asia now with Afghan refugees along with those fleeing Myanmar and Uighurs fleeing Chinese persecution. Most of the Haitians in this case had already fled to other countries in South and Central America since 2010.

I'm not so sure Europe assimilates their immigrants that well. Denmark has ghettos and a lot of distaste for Turkish who make a decent and affordable ham pizza. Spain can't wait to send them Moroccans back, etc.

Was in London fall of 2019. You should hear the way “the man on the street” talks about Eastern European and Russian satellite country immigrants. It was pretty nasty and pretty vile. I told the guy he sounded like an American talking about Hispanics and Africans from sh*thole countries. Guy was second generation. Not sure he realized how ridiculous he sounded. Every stereotype about minorities that you hear in this country was heaped on them…..

[old salt]

Freedom of movement, residence & work within the EU was a primary motivating factor in Brexit.
Race or religion was not the dividing line. It was to keep out E Europeans out who'd work for less.
The Polish plumbers.

EU elites underestimated the many factors which lead to Brexit, just as our iberal elites US can't understand why Trump was elected.
...& it's not nativisn, xenophobia, or racism. Citing those is a failure to come to grips with reality.