Is America a racist nation?

[Farfromgeneva]

If you refuse to take it on the whole and want to weave through parts I don't see an honest interest in discourse.

You want me to address ten pages of cut and paste textbook definitions? Come on. Neither of us have the time for that.

I'm not trying to "win". You're telling me that socialism isn't in Websters. It's more complicated than that, right?

Great. Keep it simple, and answer my original question: how is my University of Virginia example NOT an example of pure Socialism?


Edit to add-----I should be out your way this fall. Perhaps I just buy you a few whiskies/beers, and we'll shoot the sh*t in person? This format makes these conversations near impossible. Cheers

That's fine and love to connect, you seem like an intersting guy, I probably can drink if I want to just been doing the "white knuckle" thing here lately but I can get you a quadrupole coronary bypass burger since you are an upstate guy - I would be concerned taking MD past the triple at the Vortex as I equate mid atlantic lacrosse guys to the highly skilled eastern european soft ones and upstate guys as the candians who have 6 teeth and when they get drunk after games stand in the middle of the street to direct traffic and subsequently use their one phone call to order Chinese food (true story, buddy forwarded me a thing about a Bruin who did exactly that in the 70s). This is all just a distraction to the real world.

I'd hope you understand that there's a huge flaw in that process of chopping it down to portions as if they are standalone and not part of a larger point/argument/thesis. These arguments can't be reduced to the simplification you are using unless it's about winning and losing rather than finding a higher truth and it doesn't necessarily require you to respond. Like my little old lady psychologist who's the only person in the world that can get away talking to me like she does "cut the s**t, I know you are intelligent and can talk circles around anything in order to justify something in your own mind, but I have a PhD too and am smart, but this accomplishes nothing unless you like paying for the privilege of making arguments". If the goal is to understand better perhaps not immediately looking to respond, particularly on something this complex, and then additionally throwing out 90% of a comprehensive point, dismissing literature (that I stated was non-academic, I'll give you white papers but let's be honest at best you'll look at the abstract, find 2-3 sentences that validate what you want it to and volley those back over the net), etc.

It makes it almost impossible to continue the dialogue in this medium and forces the other to break a fuller point into specific component parts as if they can all work individually and independently. Just like I ask RRR to try and actually discuss and respond in English, that would be my request to you.

I was frustrated tthat you're telling me what Paul Krugman means when I've read his works and watched him on This week roundtable for 15yrs and can tell you point blank he isn't saying what you are telling me he's saying. I would put my deed on it. Perhaps he's made that argument elsewhere but not in the plethora of instances I can cite which means he's making specious and incorrect arguments. Or that you throw out the entire piece I pulled spending time trying to find a good one that reflects the hardcore academic stuff I've read and know in a more street level description with a waive of the hand and not even knowing the source. Do I look like the characters that grab trash and call it gold around here?

I didn't say socialism isn't in webster's, I'm saying a political and economic living theory cannot be defined by Websters. And I have hundreds, if not, thousands of experts on this space that will support me here. But conversely if you took five seconds to google you'll find a concise definition of public good that doesn't require you to try to argue against it if you wanted to be consistent with your prior arguments - https://www.britannica.com/topic/public-good-economics

[MDlaxfan76]

Let me posit that one of the benefits of this medium is that it does give one a chance to actually do a bit of research and bring some details to the table in support of one's point...and for the respondents to cross-check, refute, or confirm such in due course. In contrast, an in person discussion depends on the ready capability of each of the respondents to recall facts, cite sources, present logic, but without either party having a chance to confirm. This can be enormously frustrating for the person less capable of such ready recall.

On the other hand, and this is a big one, an in-person discussion calls on us to respond to the body language and tone of the other. Our tendencies toward empathy are triggered. If discussing something in good faith, we can tailor our responses to best engage the other.

I agree, that triple burger would be my max (in my youth).
The single looks darn good...paired with something crisp and cold.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Let me posit that one of the benefits of this medium is that it does give one a chance to actually do a bit of research and bring some details to the table in support of one's point...and for the respondents to cross-check, refute, or confirm such in due course. In contrast, an in person discussion depends on the ready capability of each of the respondents to recall facts, cite sources, present logic, but without either party having a chance to confirm. This can be enormously frustrating for the person less capable of such ready recall.

On the other hand, and this is a big one, an in-person discussion calls on us to respond to the body language and tone of the other. Our tendencies toward empathy are triggered. If discussing something in good faith, we can tailor our responses to best engage the other.

I agree, that triple burger would be my max (in my youth).
The single looks darn good...paired with something crisp and cold.

I would often order a triple and a double in my high school days..

[a fan]

That's fine and love to connect, you seem like an intersting guy, I probably can drink if I want to just been doing the "white knuckle" thing here lately but I can get you a quadrupole coronary bypass burger since you are an upstate guy - I would be concerned taking MD past the triple at the Vortex as I equate mid atlantic lacrosse guys to the highly skilled eastern european soft ones and upstate guys as the candians who have 6 teeth and when they get drunk after games stand in the middle of the street to direct traffic and subsequently use their one phone call to order Chinese food (true story, buddy forwarded me a thing about a Bruin who did exactly that in the 70s). This is all just a distraction to the real world.

I'll just take the single burger, thank you!

I'd hope you understand that there's a huge flaw in that process of chopping it down to portions as if they are standalone and not part of a larger point/argument/thesis. These arguments can't be reduced to the simplification you are using unless it's about winning and losing rather than finding a higher truth and it doesn't necessarily require you to respond.

That's not how I was taught to discuss ideas. I was taught to start by defining terms. Because if you don't do that? You wind up talking past each other. I've learned that tech call this "the vortex"......a fan tries to define terms so we can move forward and dig deep into an issue. So I don't do it anymore with him. It appears I'll do the same with you....I'm not trying to "win" or annoy....I'm trying to get on the same page with you. Nothing more.

So in our case? You still haven't given me what your simple, one sentence definition of socialism is.

I didn't say socialism isn't in webster's, I'm saying a political and economic living theory cannot be defined by Websters. And I have hundreds, if not, thousands of experts on this space that will support me here.

That's fine....but If that's true, the word is meaningless if you're actually trying to govern...which is the point of this entire discussion.

In other words, if posters here, and voters in the real world say "i don't want more socialism".....and you can't tell me what is and what isn't an example of socialism? The word is useless if you're trying to craft policy....and crafting policy is the "larger truth" we're chasing.....

Make sense? I"m not trying to "win".

[Farfromgeneva]

Yeah and I started off that I agree that we are in a mixed capitalism system and every time a Peter Brown or some others toss around the word socialism that it’s stupid, flawed and a heuristic that only works in folks small circle that’s heavily skewed by selection bias (in more ways than one).

Tech doesn’t know what he’s talking about just bitter and scared and it oozes through. But for the record this is THE VORTEX

https://thevortexatl.com/

And the primary/first location happens to be less than 3 blocks from my house, which is good because even that walk doesn’t do jack given their salads come in 4,000 calorie units.

Burgers are known as best in Atlanta. Have scaled back but used to have one of the deepest and best value for a bar brown liquor selections for a place of this kind but I’ve been branching out lately. The Three Little Pigs is crazy good-just melts in your mouth. Hot Southern Mess is better on paper than in reality. The funnel cake fries are, ya know. Even the Grilled Cheesy Mofo is wicked good.

[youthathletics]

Their bourbon and scotch pours are not too bad, more than up here around DTA (downtown Annapolis).

[Farfromgeneva]

Their bourbon and scotch pours are not too bad, more than up here around DTA (downtown Annapolis).

Yeah but your seafood is way better. But yes, decent stuff and pricing is very good compared w steakhouse and nicer hotels bars for same stuff.

Loved doing day trips there when I lived in DC and then ideally catching a night Baysox (that’s the Bowie AA clubs name right) game on the way back.

[youthathletics]

I didn't say socialism isn't in webster's, I'm saying a political and economic living theory cannot be defined by Websters. And I have hundreds, if not, thousands of experts on this space that will support me here.

That's fine....but If that's true, the word is meaningless if you're actually trying to govern...which is the point of this entire discussion.

In other words, if posters here, and voters in the real world say "i don't want more socialism".....and you can't tell me what is and what isn't an example of socialism? The word is useless if you're trying to craft policy....and crafting policy is the "larger truth" we're chasing.....

Make sense? I"m not trying to "win".

Many of us have had this banter back and forth with afan....it seldom bears fruit. Primarily for the same reasons you both hit a brick wall. Afan wants to define the terms....and it seems no one can(see below). And my guess, afan is reading this and saying....BINGO!

As Jerry Scahs says.....
SACHS: The first thing I would say is that terms like “socialism” are too big, too loaded, too poorly defined to be a very useful starting point.


He goes on...and you can see the play on words here, in bold.

DUBNER: When you talk about, let’s say, a Nordic economy — Norway, let’s just pick as a socialist democracy, what component of that economy is socialist?

SACHS: Well, the Nordic economies are not socialist democracies. They call themselves social democracies. That’s a very big difference. They do not call themselves socialist, in general, because most of the production, most of the businesses in the economy, are private, corporate ownership. But what they do, which is quite different from the United States, is that they collect far more in total tax revenues, and then use those additional revenues to provide far more public services than the United States provides.

In any event......it's a great read, and is reminiscent of the two of you going back and forth,

[youthathletics]

Their bourbon and scotch pours are not too bad, more than up here around DTA (downtown Annapolis).

Yeah but your seafood is way better. But yes, decent stuff and pricing is very good compared w steakhouse and nicer hotels bars for same stuff.

Loved doing day trips there when I lived in DC and then ideally catching a night Baysox (that’s the Bowie AA clubs name right) game on the way back.

Yep....I live close by that stadium.

[a fan]

Many of us have had this banter back and forth with afan....it seldom bears fruit. Primarily for the same reasons you both hit a brick wall. Afan wants to define the terms....and it seems no one can(see below). And my guess, afan is reading this and saying....BINGO!

Well---I'm not the one who starts it: posters can't say "I don't want more socialism", and then tell me later that they don't know what the word means.

I've said before what I believe the word REALLY means to these posters, and to Americans who think they are conservative, but aren't: socialism is any government perq that "someone else" gets. So when they use parks, Universities, UMIch Health, etc.---oh, well those are government services. But if "someone else" gets those same perqs? That's socialism, and that's bad. You have to admit that it's annoying.

[a fan]

SACHS: The first thing I would say is that terms like “socialism” are too big, too loaded, too poorly defined to be a very useful starting point.

I completely disagree, obviously. It's a VERY simple definition, and it's right there in the dictionary.

It's not my fault that people want to move the goalposts, and tell me socialism is "something else"....while also telling me that they can't tell me what that "something else" is.

If folks REALLY believe in capitalism, and privately owned free markets? IMHO, it's REALLY important to make a distinction between the government owning and making management decisions for an entity-----and a private group/person owning, and making management decisions for an entity.

Otherwise, you're gonna get more socialism----all while telling me that it doesn't matter who owns the means of production and/or providing a service.

Seems like an important word. But that's just me, I guess.

[Farfromgeneva]

Their bourbon and scotch pours are not too bad, more than up here around DTA (downtown Annapolis).

Yeah but your seafood is way better. But yes, decent stuff and pricing is very good compared w steakhouse and nicer hotels bars for same stuff.

Loved doing day trips there when I lived in DC and then ideally catching a night Baysox (that’s the Bowie AA clubs name right) game on the way back.

Yep....I live close by that stadium.

Close to the town center right? My wife’s uncle works for what is now known as Collins Aerospace closer in off Rte 50 (the one who commutes from Bel Aire) and I used to do business w Old Line Bank who sold to Wesbanco 2-3yrs ago. Mark Semanie, who is an exec there, is a terrific guy if you ever cross paths with him.

Last time I was there was to work on the sale/merger of Severn Bank-funny how different the area near the water in Annapolis is from the rest which is newer and shinier but road oriented.

[Farfromgeneva]

I didn't say socialism isn't in webster's, I'm saying a political and economic living theory cannot be defined by Websters. And I have hundreds, if not, thousands of experts on this space that will support me here.

That's fine....but If that's true, the word is meaningless if you're actually trying to govern...which is the point of this entire discussion.

In other words, if posters here, and voters in the real world say "i don't want more socialism".....and you can't tell me what is and what isn't an example of socialism? The word is useless if you're trying to craft policy....and crafting policy is the "larger truth" we're chasing.....

Make sense? I"m not trying to "win".

Many of us have had this banter back and forth with afan....it seldom bears fruit. Primarily for the same reasons you both hit a brick wall. Afan wants to define the terms....and it seems no one can(see below). And my guess, afan is reading this and saying....BINGO!

As Jerry Scahs says.....
SACHS: The first thing I would say is that terms like “socialism” are too big, too loaded, too poorly defined to be a very useful starting point.


He goes on...and you can see the play on words here, in bold.

DUBNER: When you talk about, let’s say, a Nordic economy — Norway, let’s just pick as a socialist democracy, what component of that economy is socialist?

SACHS: Well, the Nordic economies are not socialist democracies. They call themselves social democracies. That’s a very big difference. They do not call themselves socialist, in general, because most of the production, most of the businesses in the economy, are private, corporate ownership. But what they do, which is quite different from the United States, is that they collect far more in total tax revenues, and then use those additional revenues to provide far more public services than the United States provides.

In any event......it's a great read, and is reminiscent of the two of you going back and forth,

Yeah but I set up my presentation to avoid that which is worthless. At some point if there can’t be definitions accepted in stipulation but people are just talking past each other it’s time to move on which I did and thought politely. Feels like how philosophy 200 goes but I specifically pointed to the essence of concepts stipulating we were on the same side with respect to the thrust of his continued use of the same argument over and over and over which if you’re responding to people bombing the word socialism as a pejorative term there’s no point. I mistakenly thought there was some interest in understanding the actual distinctions and where it matters but I was wrong.

[Farfromgeneva]

SACHS: The first thing I would say is that terms like “socialism” are too big, too loaded, too poorly defined to be a very useful starting point.

I completely disagree, obviously. It's a VERY simple definition, and it's right there in the dictionary.

It's not my fault that people want to move the goalposts, and tell me socialism is "something else"....while also telling me that they can't tell me what that "something else" is.

If folks REALLY believe in capitalism, and privately owned free markets? IMHO, it's REALLY important to make a distinction between the government owning and making management decisions for an entity-----and a private group/person owning, and making management decisions for an entity.

Otherwise, you're gonna get more socialism----all while telling me that it doesn't matter who owns the means of production and/or providing a service.

Seems like an important word. But that's just me, I guess.

Well I did, and could’ve bombed you with peer reviewed white papers, but you rejected it and also didn’t take the argument as a whole. Go back you moved the goalposts in me and then claimed I did it. I mean when I communicate with other Omicrom members I don’t go through this and that’s including the people that teach this stuff in colleges (you only have to be a adjunct once at any school to be considered faculty which is what’s kept me in the backdoor way as not being a student or truly “faculty”-struggle to find a PhD program that would work for me in my current life situation down here). Rejected that Webster’s isn’t the be all and end all for socioeconomic theories which, again, lots of experts will disagree with you on. Hand waived off everything that was inconvenient and just dug in on pieces of the whole which simply isn’t appropriate in discussion these topics and wouldn’t fly around the experts in these topics.

Economics is NOT a hard science. Friedman did a lot of good things but his seminal work that pushed it in that direction in a self serving manner for many academics was pretty dilutive to the practice and understaning-too many mathematical models relied on and sold as correct when they only really tell a story, no different than herodutous, and give us some ability to understand the directional flow of social constructs and is in no way predictive or precise to the real world.

[a fan]

Well I did, and could’ve bombed you with peer reviewed white papers, but you rejected it and also didn’t take the argument as a whole. Go back you moved the goalposts in me and then claimed I did it.

It's not intentional!!!

Let's really distill it down, and apply it to public policy

If you, as a citizen, want more government owned entities, and to grow their influence------Universities, parks, government run daycare, etc, State and Federal hospitals----------what's the word for that? My argument is that the citizen wants more socialism. If that's not the word...what IS the word for that.

If you, as a citizen want FEWER government owned entities, and to SHRINK their influence----shut down public schools and open private ones (charter), privately run daycare, privately owned hospitals----what's the word for that? My argument is that the citizens want more capitalism. If that's not the correct word....what IS the word for that?

You defined "public good" for me perfectly, with no trouble. So what's the word for the above two situations, if it's not "socialism" and "capitalism"?

[Farfromgeneva]

If you refuse to take it on the whole and want to weave through parts I don't see an honest interest in discourse.

You want me to address ten pages of cut and paste textbook definitions? Come on. Neither of us have the time for that.

I'm not trying to "win". You're telling me that socialism isn't in Websters. It's more complicated than that, right?

Great. Keep it simple, and answer my original question: how is my University of Virginia example NOT an example of pure Socialism?


Edit to add-----I should be out your way this fall. Perhaps I just buy you a few whiskies/beers, and we'll shoot the sh*t in person? This format makes these conversations near impossible. Cheers

I keep saying that I never said it was not in Websters. Never. This is frustrating because I didn’t say that once. And if I did it would be a phone error.

Yeah or talk about the golden days like 1986, 2006 and 2013. And if it’s a weekend and you want to I should be able to swing either tickets or ADs box for a tech home game if it’s a home game Saturday. But either way shoot me a note separately when that happens. I’ll be the guy wearing a ratty hole covered gray Hobart football practice shirt.

[Farfromgeneva]

Well I did, and could’ve bombed you with peer reviewed white papers, but you rejected it and also didn’t take the argument as a whole. Go back you moved the goalposts in me and then claimed I did it.

It's not intentional!!!

Let's really distill it down, and apply it to public policy

If you, as a citizen, want more government owned entities, and to grow their influence------Universities, parks, government run daycare, etc, State and Federal hospitals----------what's the word for that? My argument is that the citizen wants more socialism. If that's not the word...what IS the word for that.

If you, as a citizen want FEWER government owned entities, and to SHRINK their influence----shut down public schools and open private ones (charter), privately run daycare, privately owned hospitals----what's the word for that? My argument is that the citizens want more capitalism. If that's not the correct word....what IS the word for that?

You defined "public good" for me perfectly, with no trouble. So what's the word for the above two situations, if it's not "socialism" and "capitalism"?

I am going to be taking my son part of next weekend camping for the first time as a rain makeup date but this is also going on in my hood if that’s when you roll into town and it’s a blast every single year.

https://fallfest.candlerpark.org/

[Farfromgeneva]

Well I did, and could’ve bombed you with peer reviewed white papers, but you rejected it and also didn’t take the argument as a whole. Go back you moved the goalposts in me and then claimed I did it.

It's not intentional!!!

Let's really distill it down, and apply it to public policy

If you, as a citizen, want more government owned entities, and to grow their influence------Universities, parks, government run daycare, etc, State and Federal hospitals----------what's the word for that? My argument is that the citizen wants more socialism. If that's not the word...what IS the word for that.

If you, as a citizen want FEWER government owned entities, and to SHRINK their influence----shut down public schools and open private ones (charter), privately run daycare, privately owned hospitals----what's the word for that? My argument is that the citizens want more capitalism. If that's not the correct word....what IS the word for that?

You defined "public good" for me perfectly, with no trouble. So what's the word for the above two situations, if it's not "socialism" and "capitalism"?

I look at it more as points on a spectrum, whose the transferor that conveys and who is the wealth transfer recipient, what’s the magnitude of the transfer and how does that fit into my worldview if necessary and fairness in the context of what I see as the tradeoff we should be making for the collective good compared with the individual. And also how messy are the frictions, consequence for free rider and rent seekers which always exist in any community or society and can I game out a reasonable expectation of the externalities and opportunity costs for the society that will surely occur.

And now you go “dude, damn you are insane in the membrane”

[Farfromgeneva]

Well I did, and could’ve bombed you with peer reviewed white papers, but you rejected it and also didn’t take the argument as a whole. Go back you moved the goalposts in me and then claimed I did it.

It's not intentional!!!

Let's really distill it down, and apply it to public policy

If you, as a citizen, want more government owned entities, and to grow their influence------Universities, parks, government run daycare, etc, State and Federal hospitals----------what's the word for that? My argument is that the citizen wants more socialism. If that's not the word...what IS the word for that.

If you, as a citizen want FEWER government owned entities, and to SHRINK their influence----shut down public schools and open private ones (charter), privately run daycare, privately owned hospitals----what's the word for that? My argument is that the citizens want more capitalism. If that's not the correct word....what IS the word for that?

You defined "public good" for me perfectly, with no trouble. So what's the word for the above two situations, if it's not "socialism" and "capitalism"?

I am going to be taking my son part of next weekend camping for the first time as a rain makeup date but this is also going on in my hood if that’s when you roll into town and it’s a blast every single year.

https://fallfest.candlerpark.org/

Just realized the link I pulled was from 2019 this is for 2021 in my hood

https://candlerpark.org/fallfest/

[a fan]

Just realized the link I pulled was from 2019 this is for 2021 in my hood

https://candlerpark.org/fallfest/

Thanks!

And thank you for the discussion!