Way too early rankings

[Farfromgeneva]

Seems to me with how much UVA has coming back and how well Lars recruits that they deserve the #1 spot. I think Duke is a couple of spots too high, as is UNC. Georgetown and Loyola are too low, IMO.

Odds are stacked heavily against a 3 peat so Virginia is unlikely to end up #1, although a favorite to return to Memorial Day weekend if they sort out Rode's replacement. At this juncture, I see no real dominant team, unlike last year when everyone was"incorrectly" ooing and ahhing over Duke and UNC's rosters....... I am a believer in Toomey. Loyola does it year after year and belongs somewhere above Georgetown and Rutgers. The latter 2 haven't yet proven they are at the same program level as Loyola.

Duke and UNC had terrible seasons. I thought they would make the tournament.

Wasn’t Hop a final four team last year.

[blue angels]

Seems to me with how much UVA has coming back and how well Lars recruits that they deserve the #1 spot. I think Duke is a couple of spots too high, as is UNC. Georgetown and Loyola are too low, IMO.

Odds are stacked heavily against a 3 peat so Virginia is unlikely to end up #1, although a favorite to return to Memorial Day weekend if they sort out Rode's replacement. At this juncture, I see no real dominant team, unlike last year when everyone was"incorrectly" ooing and ahhing over Duke and UNC's rosters....... I am a believer in Toomey. Loyola does it year after year and belongs somewhere above Georgetown and Rutgers. The latter 2 haven't yet proven they are at the same program level as Loyola.

Duke and UNC had terrible seasons. I thought they would make the tournament.

Fair Point, especially for most teams, but I would ask you to answer this question...... Based on their Pre season expectations, Do you think UNC and Duke's players & coaches were satisfied about their seasons? Getting to Memorial Day is a great accomplishment for any team and they did but..............

No. Usually only one team is. I didn’t think Duke looked good for most of the season. UNC seemed more balanced. Lost an incredible game to the eventual champion. Anyway we all tend to exaggerate. Just giving you a hard time.

No worries. I don’t know about the players or coaches but the Rutgers fans saw their team make the tourney and win 1 game and they couldn’t be more pleased after the season. Make that at least 2 teams happy after their season. It’s all about perspective

[44WeWantMore]

To be fair to the Rutgers fans, many did not think Rutgers could overcome a disadvantage at the X in the first round, and in the second round, they only lost to the top-seeded Tar Heels by one (who lost to UVA by one, who beat UMD by one). The Rutgers fans believed they could be competitive with anyone while the polite doubters raised the point the the B1G scheduling meant all that they could rely on was roster comparisons and the eye test.

[Neverplaydown]

JH not in final four, but maybe you meant win 4 games. They should along with PSU OSU should not be in anyone’s top 20. Please try to explain to me on what basis are they.

[Farfromgeneva]

JH not in final four, but maybe you meant win 4 games. They should along with PSU OSU should not be in anyone’s top 20. Please try to explain to me on what basis are they.

I was messing around piling on after TLD-the extreme opposite of UNC/Duke being extreme letdowns by year end cats were saying they’d be a final four team if they were let in

[Farfromgeneva]

To be fair to the Rutgers fans, many did not think Rutgers could overcome a disadvantage at the X in the first round, and in the second round, they only lost to the top-seeded Tar Heels by one (who lost to UVA by one, who beat UMD by one). The Rutgers fans believed they could be competitive with anyone while the polite doubters raised the point the the B1G scheduling meant all that they could rely on was roster comparisons and the eye test.

The Lehigh team missing its best offensive player?

[Laxfan#1969]

Seems to me with how much UVA has coming back and how well Lars recruits that they deserve the #1 spot. I think Duke is a couple of spots too high, as is UNC. Georgetown and Loyola are too low, IMO.

Odds are stacked heavily against a 3 peat so Virginia is unlikely to end up #1, although a favorite to return to Memorial Day weekend if they sort out Rode's replacement. At this juncture, I see no real dominant team, unlike last year when everyone was"incorrectly" ooing and ahhing over Duke and UNC's rosters....... I am a believer in Toomey. Loyola does it year after year and belongs somewhere above Georgetown and Rutgers. The latter 2 haven't yet proven they are at the same program level as Loyola.

Duke and UNC had terrible seasons. I thought they would make the tournament.

Fair Point, especially for most teams, but I would ask you to answer this question...... Based on their Pre season expectations, Do you think UNC and Duke's players & coaches were satisfied about their seasons? Getting to Memorial Day is a great accomplishment for any team and they did but..............

No. Usually only one team is. I didn’t think Duke looked good for most of the season. UNC seemed more balanced. Lost an incredible game to the eventual champion. Anyway we all tend to exaggerate. Just giving you a hard time.

No worries. I don’t know about the players or coaches but the Rutgers fans saw their team make the tourney and win 1 game and they couldn’t be more pleased after the season. Make that at least 2 teams happy after their season. It’s all about perspective

Correct...saw a post somewhere saying only teams making championship weekend were very good or happy ( I'm paraphrasing to some extent)...it's all relative...you ask Rutgers fans (me included) and players...after the dust settled from the disappointment of the OT loss to UNC...they will tell you it was a great year...and it was...best year that program has had in 30 years...and they were a damn good team...

It's all relative as you suggest...Bama is pissed if they don't win a national title in football every year...lots of other teams are very happy to just make a New Years 6 bowl game...perspective indeed

[Laxfan#1969]

Seems to me with how much UVA has coming back and how well Lars recruits that they deserve the #1 spot. I think Duke is a couple of spots too high, as is UNC. Georgetown and Loyola are too low, IMO.

Odds are stacked heavily against a 3 peat so Virginia is unlikely to end up #1, although a favorite to return to Memorial Day weekend if they sort out Rode's replacement. At this juncture, I see no real dominant team, unlike last year when everyone was"incorrectly" ooing and ahhing over Duke and UNC's rosters....... I am a believer in Toomey. Loyola does it year after year and belongs somewhere above Georgetown and Rutgers. The latter 2 haven't yet proven they are at the same program level as Loyola.

Agree with your last point...I would put Loyola over both Rutgers and Georgetown...RU and Georgetown are not on the level (as a program) as Loyola...yet. Just my opinion but after Maryland, and the 4 top ACC powers (Duke, UVA, ND, and UNC)...I think Loyola is right there at the top of the next grouping...IMHO

[Houndfan73]

To be fair to the Rutgers fans, many did not think Rutgers could overcome a disadvantage at the X in the first round, and in the second round, they only lost to the top-seeded Tar Heels by one (who lost to UVA by one, who beat UMD by one). The Rutgers fans believed they could be competitive with anyone while the polite doubters raised the point the the B1G scheduling meant all that they could rely on was roster comparisons and the eye test.

The Lehigh team missing its best offensive player?

Lehigh missing their best player. Rutgers kicked their asses all over the field.

[wgdsr]

since 2010, denver's missed the nc$$ once. even hopkins with an engraved preseason invitation has missed it twice. they've also made 7 quarters in that time and, while not in the last 3, made the ff 5 times.
my money's on denver.

They might’ve gotten lazy living off Baptiste and little and needed to transition focus back only to get smacked with Covid. Or Tierney, as all older coaches eventually do, lost his mojo and the “newness” of Matt Brown WS usurped by sexier new ACs recruiting.

they scored over 14 goals per game. how far are we running with this?
had the guy finished the 14th goal vs loyola like he should have, they may have had a 2nd shot at duke and the mods would be forced to axe these posts.

There's a small difference but noticeable from when you drop from undefeated in conference every year and hadn't had 5 losses in a season in 6-7 years. Understandable if folks are wondering if there's a decline coming with a older coach as that is fairly common. I'm not sure I'm there but people tend to think in linear fashion - see Rutgers lately and Big Ten since formation and that MD/OSU final, they figured they'd dominate forever. I'm not where some others are but to act like everyone is crazy ignores a frequent human condition and data which you tend to like.

(as an aside-people tend to crap on the ECAC, I think pre big east was better when we had 2-3 teams in the NCAAs every year and a finalist or two, but even when it became a mashup of the leftover ECAC and GWLL it was pretty strong w Denver, Air Force, OSU, Loyola, Fairfield, Hobart and maybe one other I'm forgetting. Think bellarmine was in the league one year and even they had that goalie named Dillon Reade or something like that and bumped around the top 20 before McGetrick passed).

Bill Tierney (ECAC Lacrosse League) (2010–2013)
2010 Bill Tierney 12–5 7–0 1st NCAA Division I First Round
2011 Bill Tierney 15–3 6–0 1st NCAA Division I Final Four
2012 Bill Tierney 9–7 3–3 NCAA Division I Quarterfinals
2013 Bill Tierney 14–5 6–1 1st NCAA Division I Final Four
Bill Tierney (Big East Conference) (2014–Present)
2014 Bill Tierney 16–3 6–0 1st NCAA Division I Final Four
2015 Bill Tierney 17–2 5–0 1st NCAA Division I Champion
2016 Bill Tierney 13–3 5–0 1st NCAA Division I First Round
2017 Bill Tierney 13–4 5–0 1st NCAA Division I Final Four
2018 Bill Tierney 13–4 5–0 1st NCAA Division I Quarterfinals
2019 Bill Tierney 10–5 4–1 1st
2020 Bill Tierney 4–2 0–0 † †
2021 Bill Tierney 12–5 9–1 T–1st NCAA Division I First Rou

maybe we just disagree how far the data is off. it's been since 2015 that denver's won the be tourn and they've made the nc$$ all but one year. poster said if they don't win it, the conf is one-bid. this is with g'town emerging again and villanova having some success.
i pushed back on that with the idea that denver's a good bet. imo. they're still a unicorn in ways of getting west coast canadians, in addition to getting other guys (west coast us and other canucks). they run a style of offense/philosophy that maybe doesn't fit everyone's eye and could be affected by the shot clock worse than some others. tbd.
tierney's out on the road as much as anyone recruiting, but he leaves all the in-game coaching to his young guys so he can nip at ref's ankles.

[Farfromgeneva]

since 2010, denver's missed the nc$$ once. even hopkins with an engraved preseason invitation has missed it twice. they've also made 7 quarters in that time and, while not in the last 3, made the ff 5 times.
my money's on denver.

They might’ve gotten lazy living off Baptiste and little and needed to transition focus back only to get smacked with Covid. Or Tierney, as all older coaches eventually do, lost his mojo and the “newness” of Matt Brown WS usurped by sexier new ACs recruiting.

they scored over 14 goals per game. how far are we running with this?
had the guy finished the 14th goal vs loyola like he should have, they may have had a 2nd shot at duke and the mods would be forced to axe these posts.

There's a small difference but noticeable from when you drop from undefeated in conference every year and hadn't had 5 losses in a season in 6-7 years. Understandable if folks are wondering if there's a decline coming with a older coach as that is fairly common. I'm not sure I'm there but people tend to think in linear fashion - see Rutgers lately and Big Ten since formation and that MD/OSU final, they figured they'd dominate forever. I'm not where some others are but to act like everyone is crazy ignores a frequent human condition and data which you tend to like.

(as an aside-people tend to crap on the ECAC, I think pre big east was better when we had 2-3 teams in the NCAAs every year and a finalist or two, but even when it became a mashup of the leftover ECAC and GWLL it was pretty strong w Denver, Air Force, OSU, Loyola, Fairfield, Hobart and maybe one other I'm forgetting. Think bellarmine was in the league one year and even they had that goalie named Dillon Reade or something like that and bumped around the top 20 before McGetrick passed).

Bill Tierney (ECAC Lacrosse League) (2010–2013)
2010 Bill Tierney 12–5 7–0 1st NCAA Division I First Round
2011 Bill Tierney 15–3 6–0 1st NCAA Division I Final Four
2012 Bill Tierney 9–7 3–3 NCAA Division I Quarterfinals
2013 Bill Tierney 14–5 6–1 1st NCAA Division I Final Four
Bill Tierney (Big East Conference) (2014–Present)
2014 Bill Tierney 16–3 6–0 1st NCAA Division I Final Four
2015 Bill Tierney 17–2 5–0 1st NCAA Division I Champion
2016 Bill Tierney 13–3 5–0 1st NCAA Division I First Round
2017 Bill Tierney 13–4 5–0 1st NCAA Division I Final Four
2018 Bill Tierney 13–4 5–0 1st NCAA Division I Quarterfinals
2019 Bill Tierney 10–5 4–1 1st
2020 Bill Tierney 4–2 0–0 † †
2021 Bill Tierney 12–5 9–1 T–1st NCAA Division I First Rou

maybe we just disagree how far the data is off. it's been since 2015 that denver's won the be tourn and they've made the nc$$ all but one year. poster said if they don't win it, the conf is one-bid. this is with g'town emerging again and villanova having some success.
i pushed back on that with the idea that denver's a good bet. imo. they're still a unicorn in ways of getting west coast canadians, in addition to getting other guys (west coast us and other canucks). they run a style of offense/philosophy that maybe doesn't fit everyone's eye and could be affected by the shot clock worse than some others. tbd.
tierney's out on the road as much as anyone recruiting, but he leaves all the in-game coaching to his young guys so he can nip at ref's ankles.

Hey I’m on your side regarding Tierney and that specific comment I just think it’s not unreasonable to look at the change in a linear fashion and project a further decline. We agree it’s not that compelling but I see people think this way and project all the time. And it’s true that guys fade even the best eventually. See Petro, Desko, Bowden, Starsia, etc. it’s depressing but a lot of life is a young mans game which I have to acknowledge as I’ve rolled into my 40s and need to keep my hair tighter on the sides and longer in the top these days…

[Laxfan#1969]

To be fair to the Rutgers fans, many did not think Rutgers could overcome a disadvantage at the X in the first round, and in the second round, they only lost to the top-seeded Tar Heels by one (who lost to UVA by one, who beat UMD by one). The Rutgers fans believed they could be competitive with anyone while the polite doubters raised the point the the B1G scheduling meant all that they could rely on was roster comparisons and the eye test.

The Lehigh team missing its best offensive player?

Lehigh missing their best player. Rutgers kicked their asses all over the field.

Yup...of course it hurts missing a critical offensive player...nobody would debate that for any team...but your last sentence is spot on...it's not debatable

This year is a new year...both teams will good...I think

[Farfromgeneva]

Hobarts got Leihigh this year so hoping folks would say he’s not that important since he’s back.

[bananas]

Hobarts got Leihigh this year so hoping folks would say he’s not that important since he’s back.

Bart has a shot if their fogo incurs a mild wrist sprain the night before game.

[bananas]

Lehigh fogo that is.

Blanchard gone but Shea had nice stats. Siselberger is a big test for most any.

[Farfromgeneva]

Lehigh fogo that is.

Blanchard gone but Shea had nice stats. Siselberger is a big test for most any.

I like Shea a lot, he actually was kind of starter over Blanchard but utlimately it became split time and Blanchard came in behind Matt Pedicine you know who never left the field but was a small HS AA out of RI with a 80% type win rate. Shea is a grind it out physical mauler, Blanchard had more of a quick clamp and go.

But what you're telling me is make sure an "accident" occurs before Sisselberger (sp?) hits the field, right?

I'm more concerned about some of our skilled but less phsyical attackmen and middies getting beat up. Our taller kids aren't really thick and we have smaller ones who are good but can be beat up and I believe Lehigh has a pretty large and phsyical close D no?

[bananas]

Not really, their largest one now at ND. Key for you be Shea somewhat holding his own.

[jrn19]

since 2010, denver's missed the nc$$ once. even hopkins with an engraved preseason invitation has missed it twice. they've also made 7 quarters in that time and, while not in the last 3, made the ff 5 times.
my money's on denver.

They might’ve gotten lazy living off Baptiste and little and needed to transition focus back only to get smacked with Covid. Or Tierney, as all older coaches eventually do, lost his mojo and the “newness” of Matt Brown WS usurped by sexier new ACs recruiting.

they scored over 14 goals per game. how far are we running with this?
had the guy finished the 14th goal vs loyola like he should have, they may have had a 2nd shot at duke and the mods would be forced to axe these posts.

There's a small difference but noticeable from when you drop from undefeated in conference every year and hadn't had 5 losses in a season in 6-7 years. Understandable if folks are wondering if there's a decline coming with a older coach as that is fairly common. I'm not sure I'm there but people tend to think in linear fashion - see Rutgers lately and Big Ten since formation and that MD/OSU final, they figured they'd dominate forever. I'm not where some others are but to act like everyone is crazy ignores a frequent human condition and data which you tend to like.

(as an aside-people tend to crap on the ECAC, I think pre big east was better when we had 2-3 teams in the NCAAs every year and a finalist or two, but even when it became a mashup of the leftover ECAC and GWLL it was pretty strong w Denver, Air Force, OSU, Loyola, Fairfield, Hobart and maybe one other I'm forgetting. Think bellarmine was in the league one year and even they had that goalie named Dillon Reade or something like that and bumped around the top 20 before McGetrick passed).

Bill Tierney (ECAC Lacrosse League) (2010–2013)
2010 Bill Tierney 12–5 7–0 1st NCAA Division I First Round
2011 Bill Tierney 15–3 6–0 1st NCAA Division I Final Four
2012 Bill Tierney 9–7 3–3 NCAA Division I Quarterfinals
2013 Bill Tierney 14–5 6–1 1st NCAA Division I Final Four
Bill Tierney (Big East Conference) (2014–Present)
2014 Bill Tierney 16–3 6–0 1st NCAA Division I Final Four
2015 Bill Tierney 17–2 5–0 1st NCAA Division I Champion
2016 Bill Tierney 13–3 5–0 1st NCAA Division I First Round
2017 Bill Tierney 13–4 5–0 1st NCAA Division I Final Four
2018 Bill Tierney 13–4 5–0 1st NCAA Division I Quarterfinals
2019 Bill Tierney 10–5 4–1 1st
2020 Bill Tierney 4–2 0–0 † †
2021 Bill Tierney 12–5 9–1 T–1st NCAA Division I First Rou

maybe we just disagree how far the data is off. it's been since 2015 that denver's won the be tourn and they've made the nc$$ all but one year. poster said if they don't win it, the conf is one-bid. this is with g'town emerging again and villanova having some success.
i pushed back on that with the idea that denver's a good bet. imo. they're still a unicorn in ways of getting west coast canadians, in addition to getting other guys (west coast us and other canucks). they run a style of offense/philosophy that maybe doesn't fit everyone's eye and could be affected by the shot clock worse than some others. tbd.
tierney's out on the road as much as anyone recruiting, but he leaves all the in-game coaching to his young guys so he can nip at ref's ankles.

Hey I’m on your side regarding Tierney and that specific comment I just think it’s not unreasonable to look at the change in a linear fashion and project a further decline. We agree it’s not that compelling but I see people think this way and project all the time. And it’s true that guys fade even the best eventually. See Petro, Desko, Bowden, Starsia, etc. it’s depressing but a lot of life is a young mans game which I have to acknowledge as I’ve rolled into my 40s and need to keep my hair tighter on the sides and longer in the top these days…

I don't think they'll become late stage JHU/UVA under Petro or Starsia but I do agree you can see a clear decline in performance. Not a massive one, but it's noticeable.

Last 3 seasons (not counting 2020) they've won 1 NCAA Tournament game; it had been at least 3 in every other 3 year period under Tierney prior to that. Missed the tournament in '18, obviously that's just one year but they had been clearly in the field in every year prior to that and from 2013-17 were a Top 5 seed every year.

But I think another key piece is the decline in the performance of the offense, which was always their big calling card w/ the Tierney and Brown combo. From 2015-2017 their average offensive efficiency was 41.2%. Which is crazy and best in the country levels every year. 2018 it dropped to 35.3% and then 2019, first year of the shot clock, it was 33.9%. In the 3 years with the shot clock; average offensive efficiency is 35.1%. Big drop from what they had from 2015-17. I think it's fair to wonder how this offense plays with radically different rules to the ones they excelled in, esp when you consider how they excelled which was those long backbreaking possessions where they'd always make the extra pass or score a goal 2-3 mins in when you felt like you'd played great D.

Ultimately they're still a Top 10 program but in the first 6-7 years with Tierney they were a Top 4 program, as good as basically anyone in the country. There's been a drop there.

[HooDat]

I think it's fair to wonder how this offense plays with radically different rules to the ones they excelled in, esp when you consider how they excelled which was those long backbreaking possessions where they'd always make the extra pass or score a goal 2-3 mins in when you felt like you'd played great D.

Good commentary. Makes me start thinking that perhaps Tierney has struggled to adapt to the rule changes.

Now if Tierney hires some hot-shot run and gun OC, things could get interesting in Denver.

[Farfromgeneva]

I think it's fair to wonder how this offense plays with radically different rules to the ones they excelled in, esp when you consider how they excelled which was those long backbreaking possessions where they'd always make the extra pass or score a goal 2-3 mins in when you felt like you'd played great D.

Good commentary. Makes me start thinking that perhaps Tierney has struggled to adapt to the rule changes.

Now if Tierney hires some hot-shot run and gun OC, things could get interesting in Denver.

Pry MVA away from Loyola?