Taliban reclaims Afghanistan

[Farfromgeneva]

And yes, Salty, I quite understand "differential risk"; I separately responded to cradle, which he's apparently ignored, about my father's experience during peacetime service.

Moreover, I find it offensive when one pretends to have done the same thing in combat training in peacetime as those who have actually signed up to serve in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc, knowing they'd be taking a heck of a lot more "differential risk". I know several such and it ain't the same thing. Which doesn't subtract from the 'service' of the peacetime soldier/sailor, etc.

As a matter of historical perspective, to better appreciate your differential perspective of those who served --

Do you consider the Cold War "peacetime" -- with the Korean War, Hungarian uprising, Prague Spring, Pueblo incident, Cuban missile crisis, Vietnam, Iran hostage crisis, Granada, Panama, Balkan conflicts, Somalia (Blackhawk down) et. al. ?

Post Cold War/pre 9-11 -- Balkan conflicts, Somalia (Blackhawk down), Desert Shield. Desert Storm, Provide Comfort, Northern & Southern Watch no-fly zones, Desert Fox, USS Stark, USS Cole

Do you differentiate those who chose to enter service, or remain beyond initial obligation, before & after the draft existed ?

Or do you perhaps have a sliding scale of regard which better aligns with your political prejudices ?

Although not as well publicized (or as politicized) as the "dignified transfer of remains" via Dover (a horrible military term used to describe the final journey home), service members who perish during your malleable definition of "peacetime" are still afforded full military honors.

When you take the oath to serve you are not assured "peacetime" for your entire term of obligated service.

as if I don't understand that there's risk of being in harm's way during all such periods. Did you read what I wrote about my dad's experience? Not sure what "political prejudices" you think I may have with regard to military service and how those would impact these questions.

But yeah, I do "differentiate" the risk taken between those who entered service specifically because there was a hot war to be fought, knowing that's very likely what they would be doing, and actually did go into combat, and those who did so during peacetime because they'd f'd up in HS and had few college or career choices. Much less those who phonied up an excuse or pulled strings to avoid danger, service in a hot war.

The latter doesn't apply to you, as I understand it (Annapolis?), but does for many who enter service that way. Though I "differentiate" the risk involved in that choice, and the motivation of that choice, I'm certainly not denigrating the latter choice in life path. Indeed, lots of those who do so grow up and turn out to be terrific people, contributing members of society...and some die in that service. I certainly wouldn't have it any other way in terms of 'full military honors'.

However, I also don't automatically impute "honor" to anyone simply because they "served", though my tendency would be to give the benefit of the doubt of such absent evidence to the contrary. But not all who served, at any particular level, did so honorably regardless of how long they were in or what their official exit from service was. But those who did so honorably and bravely certainly do deserve respect and appreciation for that service.

So, too, do others who serve and contribute to their communities honorably, just not in the military.

That's my view, not black and white, more nuanced...not sure how "political prejudices" would have anything to do with it.

I understand your position, however it is simplistic & too black & white. There are several components of the military where the possibility of combat is everpresent, regardless of the news of the day. Those also tend to be the units which endure the greatest risk & suffer the most casualties during training & "routine" operations.

In 1966, as a 17 year old, 1 month out of HS, I entered service during a hot war. I did so despite the fact that we were at war, not because of it. Combat operations for which I qualified ended as I was about to enter the final phase of training prior to deployment. When I chose to serve, there was no way I could reasonably anticipate whether or not I would see combat. It does not work that way.

c&s has told us that he was an Army paratrooper (82nd Airborne, I believe ?) in the late '70's, during the Iranian hostage crisis. Do you recall Desert One? Additionally, that was the height of the Cold War. Our Airborne Divisions were in a constant state of readiness for rapid deployment to Europe, Iran or Korea. The E border of W Germany was heavily fortified with NATO forces constantly in the field & on alert. Likewise in Korea. In 1976, I was deployed aboard the USS Kirk as she switched home ports from San Diego to Japan. Shortly after our initial arrival in Yokosuka, we were ordered back to sea, on short notice, as part of the Midway battle group. We sailed around the Japanese mainland, into the Sea of Japan, E of Korea, within striking distance, after 2 US Army officers were killed near the DMZ in the "tree war". You may have been tuned out at the time but it was real to those of us involved.

https://www.wearethemighty.com/popular/ ... ge-crisis/

I'm betting many folks on this forum don't remember this. Those that do probably don't remember the desecration of the charred remains of these fallen service members. Chunks of them cut out with knives and held up as the Iranians smiled and laughed. Things have been sanitized today so people don't become upset. i wonder today if the mainstream media will show those heartbreaking pictures of the people jumping out of the towers. i remember the man and woman hand in hand as they fell to their deaths. Maybe we all need to be reminded what brutality looks like up close and personal.

I remember. That’s the incident OS finds humorous. Laughs at President Carter for sending them in. Those boys should have known there sand in the desert….too funny. They were trying to rescue a guy that actually lived in the house behind us…..But Jimmy is stupid.

They’re going to ignore or attempt to explain it away. You know it won’t be addressed appropriately.

[cradleandshoot]

And yes, Salty, I quite understand "differential risk"; I separately responded to cradle, which he's apparently ignored, about my father's experience during peacetime service.

Moreover, I find it offensive when one pretends to have done the same thing in combat training in peacetime as those who have actually signed up to serve in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc, knowing they'd be taking a heck of a lot more "differential risk". I know several such and it ain't the same thing. Which doesn't subtract from the 'service' of the peacetime soldier/sailor, etc.

As a matter of historical perspective, to better appreciate your differential perspective of those who served --

Do you consider the Cold War "peacetime" -- with the Korean War, Hungarian uprising, Prague Spring, Pueblo incident, Cuban missile crisis, Vietnam, Iran hostage crisis, Granada, Panama, Balkan conflicts, Somalia (Blackhawk down) et. al. ?

Post Cold War/pre 9-11 -- Balkan conflicts, Somalia (Blackhawk down), Desert Shield. Desert Storm, Provide Comfort, Northern & Southern Watch no-fly zones, Desert Fox, USS Stark, USS Cole

Do you differentiate those who chose to enter service, or remain beyond initial obligation, before & after the draft existed ?

Or do you perhaps have a sliding scale of regard which better aligns with your political prejudices ?

Although not as well publicized (or as politicized) as the "dignified transfer of remains" via Dover (a horrible military term used to describe the final journey home), service members who perish during your malleable definition of "peacetime" are still afforded full military honors.

When you take the oath to serve you are not assured "peacetime" for your entire term of obligated service.

as if I don't understand that there's risk of being in harm's way during all such periods. Did you read what I wrote about my dad's experience? Not sure what "political prejudices" you think I may have with regard to military service and how those would impact these questions.

But yeah, I do "differentiate" the risk taken between those who entered service specifically because there was a hot war to be fought, knowing that's very likely what they would be doing, and actually did go into combat, and those who did so during peacetime because they'd f'd up in HS and had few college or career choices. Much less those who phonied up an excuse or pulled strings to avoid danger, service in a hot war.

The latter doesn't apply to you, as I understand it (Annapolis?), but does for many who enter service that way. Though I "differentiate" the risk involved in that choice, and the motivation of that choice, I'm certainly not denigrating the latter choice in life path. Indeed, lots of those who do so grow up and turn out to be terrific people, contributing members of society...and some die in that service. I certainly wouldn't have it any other way in terms of 'full military honors'.

However, I also don't automatically impute "honor" to anyone simply because they "served", though my tendency would be to give the benefit of the doubt of such absent evidence to the contrary. But not all who served, at any particular level, did so honorably regardless of how long they were in or what their official exit from service was. But those who did so honorably and bravely certainly do deserve respect and appreciation for that service.

So, too, do others who serve and contribute to their communities honorably, just not in the military.

That's my view, not black and white, more nuanced...not sure how "political prejudices" would have anything to do with it.

I understand your position, however it is simplistic & too black & white. There are several components of the military where the possibility of combat is everpresent, regardless of the news of the day. Those also tend to be the units which endure the greatest risk & suffer the most casualties during training & "routine" operations.

In 1966, as a 17 year old, 1 month out of HS, I entered service during a hot war. I did so despite the fact that we were at war, not because of it. Combat operations for which I qualified ended as I was about to enter the final phase of training prior to deployment. When I chose to serve, there was no way I could reasonably anticipate whether or not I would see combat. It does not work that way.

c&s has told us that he was an Army paratrooper (82nd Airborne, I believe ?) in the late '70's, during the Iranian hostage crisis. Do you recall Desert One? Additionally, that was the height of the Cold War. Our Airborne Divisions were in a constant state of readiness for rapid deployment to Europe, Iran or Korea. The E border of W Germany was heavily fortified with NATO forces constantly in the field & on alert. Likewise in Korea. In 1976, I was deployed aboard the USS Kirk as she switched home ports from San Diego to Japan. Shortly after our initial arrival in Yokosuka, we were ordered back to sea, on short notice, as part of the Midway battle group. We sailed around the Japanese mainland, into the Sea of Japan, E of Korea, within striking distance, after 2 US Army officers were killed near the DMZ in the "tree war". You may have been tuned out at the time but it was real to those of us involved.

https://www.wearethemighty.com/popular/ ... ge-crisis/

I'm betting many folks on this forum don't remember this. Those that do probably don't remember the desecration of the charred remains of these fallen service members. Chunks of them cut out with knives and held up as the Iranians smiled and laughed. Things have been sanitized today so people don't become upset. i wonder today if the mainstream media will show those heartbreaking pictures of the people jumping out of the towers. i remember the man and woman hand in hand as they fell to their deaths. Maybe we all need to be reminded what brutality looks like up close and personal.

We remember.
Might also interest you to know and incredibly, that all 8 bodies were promptly returned to the USA for burial. (That said, the Iranian took full advantage to show them at the crash site to make their point being the dirtbags that they were and still are). Kindly cite some visual evidence or any other credible source to the contrary other than the usual hysterical howlers of that time who like their contemporary howlers just say sh*t for the sake of saying it.

Agreed on your 9/11 remembrance and you might think a for a moment to STFU about all this in their memory for a day. Those of us who lost friends and family on that day would appreciate it. The mainstream media you condemn actually did show some of those pictures back then. Many were not very happy about it.

STFU??? that is pretty harsh. If I had any feelings they would probably be hurt. You ever seen any of the pictures of those 8 bodies being desecrated. We did did, our company commander made sure we took a good long hard look at them. You won't find those pics on the internet anymore. I did try to find them awhile back. Fortunately some wise folks chose to remove them, probably out of respect for those family members.

[Farfromgeneva]

Here’s a definition of service

Definition of service (Entry 1 of 5)
1a : the occupation or function of serving
in active service
b : employment as a servant
entered his service
2a : the work performed by one that serves
good service
b : HELP, USE, BENEFIT
glad to be of service
c : contribution to the welfare of others
d : disposal for use
I'm entirely at your service

I served for 12 years or so in the Treasury Department. But nobody says "thank you" to me for my award winning service.

BTW I told a story about helping a buddy get some land conservation easement tax credits to sell. Heard that’s being looked into more due to the valuation process (which is broken). Have you heard anything about this lately? Know if there’s any liability back to tax credit sellers? I haven’t exactly blocked this guys number yet knowing because of my other relationship that I have to walk away but still wouldn’t want any of that to roll downhill to him. Granted the syndicates and big players would have to be primary targets I presume if that does get sideways.

[Brooklyn]

Was it service or transactional? That’s part of it. If it was transactional then you don’t get the glory, it was a tradeoff. If you served like my close friend who got shot up in Iraq whos family was done wrong by the military when his father died and they were kicked out of town within 30 days and had family military royalty and yet after college instead of a crappy white collar back office entry level job said “forget how they did my family dirty I’m going to enlist” and subsequently has had his life destroyed for doing so in the name of service is different.

There definitely were periods of "service" - worked three years in the taxpayer service unit. Also did tax returns for friends/neighbors for free for many years thereafter. Saved people tens of thousands of dollars and kept non-complying types out of prison by convincing them to comply with the law by filing and paying off their debt to the government. Just the other day in another forum people were debating a matter of tax record keeping and estate planning. Some of the "advice" posted was clearly wrong and I set them straight. Again, the advice was for free. Some tax accountants charge as much as $100 per hour for such advice. To this day, after starting work in this field in the 1970s, I have never charged anyone so much as one cent for my services.

[Farfromgeneva]

Was it service or transactional? That’s part of it. If it was transactional then you don’t get the glory, it was a tradeoff. If you served like my close friend who got shot up in Iraq whos family was done wrong by the military when his father died and they were kicked out of town within 30 days and had family military royalty and yet after college instead of a crappy white collar back office entry level job said “forget how they did my family dirty I’m going to enlist” and subsequently has had his life destroyed for doing so in the name of service is different.

There definitely were periods of "service" - worked three years in the taxpayer service unit. Also did tax returns for friends/neighbors for free for many years thereafter. Saved people tens of thousands of dollars and kept non-complying types out of prison by convincing them to comply with the law by filing and paying off their debt to the government. Just the other day in another forum people were debating a matter of tax record keeping and estate planning. Some of the "advice" posted was clearly wrong and I set them straight. Again, the advice was for free. Some tax accountants charge as much as $100 per hour for such advice. To this day, after starting work in this field in the 1970s, I have never charged anyone so much as one cent for my services.

That’s good. I’ve helped a lot of friends using my various niche knowledge to assist them but also in the private sector charged or my firms have charged for advisory work, which is different than manufacturing where the capital investment is in equipment more than labor for the output.

And assuming you are a decent person which I believe even when I strenuously disagree with you, I bet you never beat your cheat or threw it in other peoples faces either. Service is done fir services sake. Not a greater glory unless you tie it back to religion in some way or buy into the existentialist thinking that magnanimous and philanthropic are nonsense because it’s all transactional if it makes one feel better to do something die someone else without any tangible exchange of value.

[Brooklyn]

BTW I told a story about helping a buddy get some land conservation easement tax credits to sell. Heard that’s being looked into more due to the valuation process (which is broken). Have you heard anything about this lately? Know if there’s any liability back to tax credit sellers? I haven’t exactly blocked this guys number yet knowing because of my other relationship that I have to walk away but still wouldn’t want any of that to roll downhill to him. Granted the syndicates and big players would have to be primary targets I presume if that does get sideways.

This is one area which the government has often called "abusive transaction" and needs to be settled on a case-by-case basis. While the deduction is one taken on the federal tax return, the legality or validity is subject to state property laws. I worked in federal taxation and my knowledge of state/city taxes is limited. As for any possible shady characteristics at present, nope, sorry, am not aware of any news in that regard.



Form used for such deductions:



https://1044form.com/wp-content/uploads ... utions.png

[Brooklyn]

That’s good. I’ve helped a lot of friends using my various niche knowledge to assist them but also in the private sector charged or my firms have charged for advisory work, which is different than manufacturing where the capital investment is in equipment more than labor for the output.

And assuming you are a decent person which I believe even when I strenuously disagree with you, I bet you never beat your cheat or threw it in other peoples faces either. Service is done fir services sake. Not a greater glory unless you tie it back to religion in some way or buy into the existentialist thinking that magnanimous and philanthropic are nonsense because it’s all transactional if it makes one feel better to do something die someone else without any tangible exchange of value.

+1

[Farfromgeneva]

BTW I told a story about helping a buddy get some land conservation easement tax credits to sell. Heard that’s being looked into more due to the valuation process (which is broken). Have you heard anything about this lately? Know if there’s any liability back to tax credit sellers? I haven’t exactly blocked this guys number yet knowing because of my other relationship that I have to walk away but still wouldn’t want any of that to roll downhill to him. Granted the syndicates and big players would have to be primary targets I presume if that does get sideways.

This is one area which the government has often called "abusive transaction" and needs to be settled on a case-by-case basis. While the deduction is one taken on the federal tax return, the legality or validity is subject to state property laws. I worked in federal taxation and my knowledge of state/city taxes is limited. As for any possible shady characteristics at present, nope, sorry, am not aware of any news in that regard.

Thanks for reply. I’m not that worried, crossed paths with it over the years not a primary thing for me but know a former state senator and land developer in Ga that advises others on it and used it as a way to finance the equity in land development projects so he walked my friend through it to sale. I just recall reading a piece about it not too long ago a new know land appraisal methodology when this is the known purpose skews to very high values if they justify it somehow (there’s 3-4 primary land valution methods, they take the extreme liberally but do tie it back). Problem is you have to crush the appraisal industry to do it which I think is where they have to be careful because it would throw every real estate secured bank loan into crisis in theory.

I’d generally like to get out of the tax credit business as a country. Know a guy, Ashton Ryan, who ran the largest failure of a bank since the crisis by manipulating historic tax credit valuations on his books and then threw his CFO Mary Beth, under the bus. First NBC - easy to find, almost took a mutual fund run by Angel oak down singlehandedly.

Have seen a use of film tax credits, historic preservation, conservation easement, etc. Stephen Ross is a billionaire from tax credit businesses.

[Farfromgeneva]

That’s good. I’ve helped a lot of friends using my various niche knowledge to assist them but also in the private sector charged or my firms have charged for advisory work, which is different than manufacturing where the capital investment is in equipment more than labor for the output.

And assuming you are a decent person which I believe even when I strenuously disagree with you, I bet you never beat your cheat or threw it in other peoples faces either. Service is done fir services sake. Not a greater glory unless you tie it back to religion in some way or buy into the existentialist thinking that magnanimous and philanthropic are nonsense because it’s all transactional if it makes one feel better to do something die someone else without any tangible exchange of value.

+1

If you are feeling magnanimous I’ll take an intro to Dessa through your friend sometime..

[Kismet]

And yes, Salty, I quite understand "differential risk"; I separately responded to cradle, which he's apparently ignored, about my father's experience during peacetime service.

Moreover, I find it offensive when one pretends to have done the same thing in combat training in peacetime as those who have actually signed up to serve in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc, knowing they'd be taking a heck of a lot more "differential risk". I know several such and it ain't the same thing. Which doesn't subtract from the 'service' of the peacetime soldier/sailor, etc.

As a matter of historical perspective, to better appreciate your differential perspective of those who served --

Do you consider the Cold War "peacetime" -- with the Korean War, Hungarian uprising, Prague Spring, Pueblo incident, Cuban missile crisis, Vietnam, Iran hostage crisis, Granada, Panama, Balkan conflicts, Somalia (Blackhawk down) et. al. ?

Post Cold War/pre 9-11 -- Balkan conflicts, Somalia (Blackhawk down), Desert Shield. Desert Storm, Provide Comfort, Northern & Southern Watch no-fly zones, Desert Fox, USS Stark, USS Cole

Do you differentiate those who chose to enter service, or remain beyond initial obligation, before & after the draft existed ?

Or do you perhaps have a sliding scale of regard which better aligns with your political prejudices ?

Although not as well publicized (or as politicized) as the "dignified transfer of remains" via Dover (a horrible military term used to describe the final journey home), service members who perish during your malleable definition of "peacetime" are still afforded full military honors.

When you take the oath to serve you are not assured "peacetime" for your entire term of obligated service.

as if I don't understand that there's risk of being in harm's way during all such periods. Did you read what I wrote about my dad's experience? Not sure what "political prejudices" you think I may have with regard to military service and how those would impact these questions.

But yeah, I do "differentiate" the risk taken between those who entered service specifically because there was a hot war to be fought, knowing that's very likely what they would be doing, and actually did go into combat, and those who did so during peacetime because they'd f'd up in HS and had few college or career choices. Much less those who phonied up an excuse or pulled strings to avoid danger, service in a hot war.

The latter doesn't apply to you, as I understand it (Annapolis?), but does for many who enter service that way. Though I "differentiate" the risk involved in that choice, and the motivation of that choice, I'm certainly not denigrating the latter choice in life path. Indeed, lots of those who do so grow up and turn out to be terrific people, contributing members of society...and some die in that service. I certainly wouldn't have it any other way in terms of 'full military honors'.

However, I also don't automatically impute "honor" to anyone simply because they "served", though my tendency would be to give the benefit of the doubt of such absent evidence to the contrary. But not all who served, at any particular level, did so honorably regardless of how long they were in or what their official exit from service was. But those who did so honorably and bravely certainly do deserve respect and appreciation for that service.

So, too, do others who serve and contribute to their communities honorably, just not in the military.

That's my view, not black and white, more nuanced...not sure how "political prejudices" would have anything to do with it.

I understand your position, however it is simplistic & too black & white. There are several components of the military where the possibility of combat is everpresent, regardless of the news of the day. Those also tend to be the units which endure the greatest risk & suffer the most casualties during training & "routine" operations.

In 1966, as a 17 year old, 1 month out of HS, I entered service during a hot war. I did so despite the fact that we were at war, not because of it. Combat operations for which I qualified ended as I was about to enter the final phase of training prior to deployment. When I chose to serve, there was no way I could reasonably anticipate whether or not I would see combat. It does not work that way.

c&s has told us that he was an Army paratrooper (82nd Airborne, I believe ?) in the late '70's, during the Iranian hostage crisis. Do you recall Desert One? Additionally, that was the height of the Cold War. Our Airborne Divisions were in a constant state of readiness for rapid deployment to Europe, Iran or Korea. The E border of W Germany was heavily fortified with NATO forces constantly in the field & on alert. Likewise in Korea. In 1976, I was deployed aboard the USS Kirk as she switched home ports from San Diego to Japan. Shortly after our initial arrival in Yokosuka, we were ordered back to sea, on short notice, as part of the Midway battle group. We sailed around the Japanese mainland, into the Sea of Japan, E of Korea, within striking distance, after 2 US Army officers were killed near the DMZ in the "tree war". You may have been tuned out at the time but it was real to those of us involved.

https://www.wearethemighty.com/popular/ ... ge-crisis/

I'm betting many folks on this forum don't remember this. Those that do probably don't remember the desecration of the charred remains of these fallen service members. Chunks of them cut out with knives and held up as the Iranians smiled and laughed. Things have been sanitized today so people don't become upset. i wonder today if the mainstream media will show those heartbreaking pictures of the people jumping out of the towers. i remember the man and woman hand in hand as they fell to their deaths. Maybe we all need to be reminded what brutality looks like up close and personal.

We remember.
Might also interest you to know and incredibly, that all 8 bodies were promptly returned to the USA for burial. (That said, the Iranian took full advantage to show them at the crash site to make their point being the dirtbags that they were and still are). Kindly cite some visual evidence or any other credible source to the contrary other than the usual hysterical howlers of that time who like their contemporary howlers just say sh*t for the sake of saying it.

Agreed on your 9/11 remembrance and you might think a for a moment to STFU about all this in their memory for a day. Those of us who lost friends and family on that day would appreciate it. The mainstream media you condemn actually did show some of those pictures back then. Many were not very happy about it.

STFU??? that is pretty harsh. If I had any feelings they would probably be hurt. You ever seen any of the pictures of those 8 bodies being desecrated. We did did, our company commander made sure we took a good long hard look at them. You won't find those pics on the internet anymore. I did try to find them awhile back. Fortunately some wise folks chose to remove them, probably out of respect for those family members.

Sorry. But for all the yammering you do around here and given your service, one might think you'd recognize what others who lost family and friends on this day 20 years ago experienced and out of respect for their loss just zip it for 24 hours or so. If it takes a bit of direct internet profanity to get through to you so be it. That said, I'm not encouraged that you have the self-control and humility to actually do it but have hope that you'll come around out of respect to those lost and their families. Think, perhaps, about them and not yourself for a change.

[Farfromgeneva]

RIP Scott Rohner. Great guy who just had started at Cantor.

Also for my friend Brendan Dolan who was lost form the towers while working for carr futures.

[cradleandshoot]

And yes, Salty, I quite understand "differential risk"; I separately responded to cradle, which he's apparently ignored, about my father's experience during peacetime service.

Moreover, I find it offensive when one pretends to have done the same thing in combat training in peacetime as those who have actually signed up to serve in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc, knowing they'd be taking a heck of a lot more "differential risk". I know several such and it ain't the same thing. Which doesn't subtract from the 'service' of the peacetime soldier/sailor, etc.

As a matter of historical perspective, to better appreciate your differential perspective of those who served --

Do you consider the Cold War "peacetime" -- with the Korean War, Hungarian uprising, Prague Spring, Pueblo incident, Cuban missile crisis, Vietnam, Iran hostage crisis, Granada, Panama, Balkan conflicts, Somalia (Blackhawk down) et. al. ?

Post Cold War/pre 9-11 -- Balkan conflicts, Somalia (Blackhawk down), Desert Shield. Desert Storm, Provide Comfort, Northern & Southern Watch no-fly zones, Desert Fox, USS Stark, USS Cole

Do you differentiate those who chose to enter service, or remain beyond initial obligation, before & after the draft existed ?

Or do you perhaps have a sliding scale of regard which better aligns with your political prejudices ?

Although not as well publicized (or as politicized) as the "dignified transfer of remains" via Dover (a horrible military term used to describe the final journey home), service members who perish during your malleable definition of "peacetime" are still afforded full military honors.

When you take the oath to serve you are not assured "peacetime" for your entire term of obligated service.

as if I don't understand that there's risk of being in harm's way during all such periods. Did you read what I wrote about my dad's experience? Not sure what "political prejudices" you think I may have with regard to military service and how those would impact these questions.

But yeah, I do "differentiate" the risk taken between those who entered service specifically because there was a hot war to be fought, knowing that's very likely what they would be doing, and actually did go into combat, and those who did so during peacetime because they'd f'd up in HS and had few college or career choices. Much less those who phonied up an excuse or pulled strings to avoid danger, service in a hot war.

The latter doesn't apply to you, as I understand it (Annapolis?), but does for many who enter service that way. Though I "differentiate" the risk involved in that choice, and the motivation of that choice, I'm certainly not denigrating the latter choice in life path. Indeed, lots of those who do so grow up and turn out to be terrific people, contributing members of society...and some die in that service. I certainly wouldn't have it any other way in terms of 'full military honors'.

However, I also don't automatically impute "honor" to anyone simply because they "served", though my tendency would be to give the benefit of the doubt of such absent evidence to the contrary. But not all who served, at any particular level, did so honorably regardless of how long they were in or what their official exit from service was. But those who did so honorably and bravely certainly do deserve respect and appreciation for that service.

So, too, do others who serve and contribute to their communities honorably, just not in the military.

That's my view, not black and white, more nuanced...not sure how "political prejudices" would have anything to do with it.

I understand your position, however it is simplistic & too black & white. There are several components of the military where the possibility of combat is everpresent, regardless of the news of the day. Those also tend to be the units which endure the greatest risk & suffer the most casualties during training & "routine" operations.

In 1966, as a 17 year old, 1 month out of HS, I entered service during a hot war. I did so despite the fact that we were at war, not because of it. Combat operations for which I qualified ended as I was about to enter the final phase of training prior to deployment. When I chose to serve, there was no way I could reasonably anticipate whether or not I would see combat. It does not work that way.

c&s has told us that he was an Army paratrooper (82nd Airborne, I believe ?) in the late '70's, during the Iranian hostage crisis. Do you recall Desert One? Additionally, that was the height of the Cold War. Our Airborne Divisions were in a constant state of readiness for rapid deployment to Europe, Iran or Korea. The E border of W Germany was heavily fortified with NATO forces constantly in the field & on alert. Likewise in Korea. In 1976, I was deployed aboard the USS Kirk as she switched home ports from San Diego to Japan. Shortly after our initial arrival in Yokosuka, we were ordered back to sea, on short notice, as part of the Midway battle group. We sailed around the Japanese mainland, into the Sea of Japan, E of Korea, within striking distance, after 2 US Army officers were killed near the DMZ in the "tree war". You may have been tuned out at the time but it was real to those of us involved.

https://www.wearethemighty.com/popular/ ... ge-crisis/

I'm betting many folks on this forum don't remember this. Those that do probably don't remember the desecration of the charred remains of these fallen service members. Chunks of them cut out with knives and held up as the Iranians smiled and laughed. Things have been sanitized today so people don't become upset. i wonder today if the mainstream media will show those heartbreaking pictures of the people jumping out of the towers. i remember the man and woman hand in hand as they fell to their deaths. Maybe we all need to be reminded what brutality looks like up close and personal.

We remember.
Might also interest you to know and incredibly, that all 8 bodies were promptly returned to the USA for burial. (That said, the Iranian took full advantage to show them at the crash site to make their point being the dirtbags that they were and still are). Kindly cite some visual evidence or any other credible source to the contrary other than the usual hysterical howlers of that time who like their contemporary howlers just say sh*t for the sake of saying it.

Agreed on your 9/11 remembrance and you might think a for a moment to STFU about all this in their memory for a day. Those of us who lost friends and family on that day would appreciate it. The mainstream media you condemn actually did show some of those pictures back then. Many were not very happy about it.

STFU??? that is pretty harsh. If I had any feelings they would probably be hurt. You ever seen any of the pictures of those 8 bodies being desecrated. We did did, our company commander made sure we took a good long hard look at them. You won't find those pics on the internet anymore. I did try to find them awhile back. Fortunately some wise folks chose to remove them, probably out of respect for those family members.

Sorry. But for all the yammering you do around here and given your service, one might think you'd recognize what others who lost family and friends on this day 20 years ago experienced and out of respect for their loss just zip it for 24 hours or so. If it takes a bit of direct internet profanity to get through to you so be it. That said, I'm not encouraged that you have the self-control and humility to actually do it but have hope that you'll come around out of respect to those lost and their families. Think, perhaps, about them and not yourself for a change.

While your yammerin at me i was there in 1980 when operation eagle went wrong. My fellow soldiers saw first hand what happened to those soldiers that died. What were you doing back then. ? i was training to go over there and die. i don't need a lecture from some wimp as FLP liberal about patriotism and what it means to grieve for the loss of your fellow soldiers. While you were popping pimples and jerking off into your erlenmeyer flask some people out there were protecting your freedom do be a jerk. I'm all for taking criticism from people that disagree with me, you ain't earned that privilege you little complain.

[Farfromgeneva]

That’s right. You tell em. Everyone should bow down to you and your “service”

[Kismet]

And yes, Salty, I quite understand "differential risk"; I separately responded to cradle, which he's apparently ignored, about my father's experience during peacetime service.

Moreover, I find it offensive when one pretends to have done the same thing in combat training in peacetime as those who have actually signed up to serve in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc, knowing they'd be taking a heck of a lot more "differential risk". I know several such and it ain't the same thing. Which doesn't subtract from the 'service' of the peacetime soldier/sailor, etc.

As a matter of historical perspective, to better appreciate your differential perspective of those who served --

Do you consider the Cold War "peacetime" -- with the Korean War, Hungarian uprising, Prague Spring, Pueblo incident, Cuban missile crisis, Vietnam, Iran hostage crisis, Granada, Panama, Balkan conflicts, Somalia (Blackhawk down) et. al. ?

Post Cold War/pre 9-11 -- Balkan conflicts, Somalia (Blackhawk down), Desert Shield. Desert Storm, Provide Comfort, Northern & Southern Watch no-fly zones, Desert Fox, USS Stark, USS Cole

Do you differentiate those who chose to enter service, or remain beyond initial obligation, before & after the draft existed ?

Or do you perhaps have a sliding scale of regard which better aligns with your political prejudices ?

Although not as well publicized (or as politicized) as the "dignified transfer of remains" via Dover (a horrible military term used to describe the final journey home), service members who perish during your malleable definition of "peacetime" are still afforded full military honors.

When you take the oath to serve you are not assured "peacetime" for your entire term of obligated service.

as if I don't understand that there's risk of being in harm's way during all such periods. Did you read what I wrote about my dad's experience? Not sure what "political prejudices" you think I may have with regard to military service and how those would impact these questions.

But yeah, I do "differentiate" the risk taken between those who entered service specifically because there was a hot war to be fought, knowing that's very likely what they would be doing, and actually did go into combat, and those who did so during peacetime because they'd f'd up in HS and had few college or career choices. Much less those who phonied up an excuse or pulled strings to avoid danger, service in a hot war.

The latter doesn't apply to you, as I understand it (Annapolis?), but does for many who enter service that way. Though I "differentiate" the risk involved in that choice, and the motivation of that choice, I'm certainly not denigrating the latter choice in life path. Indeed, lots of those who do so grow up and turn out to be terrific people, contributing members of society...and some die in that service. I certainly wouldn't have it any other way in terms of 'full military honors'.

However, I also don't automatically impute "honor" to anyone simply because they "served", though my tendency would be to give the benefit of the doubt of such absent evidence to the contrary. But not all who served, at any particular level, did so honorably regardless of how long they were in or what their official exit from service was. But those who did so honorably and bravely certainly do deserve respect and appreciation for that service.

So, too, do others who serve and contribute to their communities honorably, just not in the military.

That's my view, not black and white, more nuanced...not sure how "political prejudices" would have anything to do with it.

I understand your position, however it is simplistic & too black & white. There are several components of the military where the possibility of combat is everpresent, regardless of the news of the day. Those also tend to be the units which endure the greatest risk & suffer the most casualties during training & "routine" operations.

In 1966, as a 17 year old, 1 month out of HS, I entered service during a hot war. I did so despite the fact that we were at war, not because of it. Combat operations for which I qualified ended as I was about to enter the final phase of training prior to deployment. When I chose to serve, there was no way I could reasonably anticipate whether or not I would see combat. It does not work that way.

c&s has told us that he was an Army paratrooper (82nd Airborne, I believe ?) in the late '70's, during the Iranian hostage crisis. Do you recall Desert One? Additionally, that was the height of the Cold War. Our Airborne Divisions were in a constant state of readiness for rapid deployment to Europe, Iran or Korea. The E border of W Germany was heavily fortified with NATO forces constantly in the field & on alert. Likewise in Korea. In 1976, I was deployed aboard the USS Kirk as she switched home ports from San Diego to Japan. Shortly after our initial arrival in Yokosuka, we were ordered back to sea, on short notice, as part of the Midway battle group. We sailed around the Japanese mainland, into the Sea of Japan, E of Korea, within striking distance, after 2 US Army officers were killed near the DMZ in the "tree war". You may have been tuned out at the time but it was real to those of us involved.

https://www.wearethemighty.com/popular/ ... ge-crisis/

I'm betting many folks on this forum don't remember this. Those that do probably don't remember the desecration of the charred remains of these fallen service members. Chunks of them cut out with knives and held up as the Iranians smiled and laughed. Things have been sanitized today so people don't become upset. i wonder today if the mainstream media will show those heartbreaking pictures of the people jumping out of the towers. i remember the man and woman hand in hand as they fell to their deaths. Maybe we all need to be reminded what brutality looks like up close and personal.

We remember.
Might also interest you to know and incredibly, that all 8 bodies were promptly returned to the USA for burial. (That said, the Iranian took full advantage to show them at the crash site to make their point being the dirtbags that they were and still are). Kindly cite some visual evidence or any other credible source to the contrary other than the usual hysterical howlers of that time who like their contemporary howlers just say sh*t for the sake of saying it.

Agreed on your 9/11 remembrance and you might think a for a moment to STFU about all this in their memory for a day. Those of us who lost friends and family on that day would appreciate it. The mainstream media you condemn actually did show some of those pictures back then. Many were not very happy about it.

STFU??? that is pretty harsh. If I had any feelings they would probably be hurt. You ever seen any of the pictures of those 8 bodies being desecrated. We did did, our company commander made sure we took a good long hard look at them. You won't find those pics on the internet anymore. I did try to find them awhile back. Fortunately some wise folks chose to remove them, probably out of respect for those family members.

Sorry. But for all the yammering you do around here and given your service, one might think you'd recognize what others who lost family and friends on this day 20 years ago experienced and out of respect for their loss just zip it for 24 hours or so. If it takes a bit of direct internet profanity to get through to you so be it. That said, I'm not encouraged that you have the self-control and humility to actually do it but have hope that you'll come around out of respect to those lost and their families. Think, perhaps, about them and not yourself for a change.

While your yammerin at me i was there in 1980 when operation eagle went wrong. My fellow soldiers saw first hand what happened to those soldiers that died. What were you doing back then. ? i was training to go over there and die. i don't need a lecture from some wimp as FLP liberal about patriotism and what it means to grieve for the loss of your fellow soldiers. While you were popping pimples and jerking off into your erlenmeyer flask some people out there were protecting your freedom do be a jerk. I'm all for taking criticism from people that disagree with me, you ain't earned that privilege you little complain.

As expected, you delivered on such low expectations even for you. Thanks for confirming for me what a thermonuclear a-hole you really are.
to be honest, up yours .
I don't need nor want your approval for anything, you have no clue about me on any level or detail. That you missed the entire point that was being made is par for the course for clueless you. You remain the incarnation of what is nominally called beyond stupid. To contribute any further bandwidth on you would be a complete waste of time.

[MDlaxfan76]

+1
Today should indeed be a day of remembrance and reflection.
Quite a few us lost friends or family that day.

[Farfromgeneva]

+1
Today should indeed be a day of remembrance and reflection.
Quite a few us lost friends or family that day.

Just announced three from Hobart including my boy Rohner before the football game (where we will go 2-0 after emasculating the night Morrisville St!). Crazy to think I’ve lived another whole life and he didn’t since we left college that May.

[cradleandshoot]

And yes, Salty, I quite understand "differential risk"; I separately responded to cradle, which he's apparently ignored, about my father's experience during peacetime service.

Moreover, I find it offensive when one pretends to have done the same thing in combat training in peacetime as those who have actually signed up to serve in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc, knowing they'd be taking a heck of a lot more "differential risk". I know several such and it ain't the same thing. Which doesn't subtract from the 'service' of the peacetime soldier/sailor, etc.

As a matter of historical perspective, to better appreciate your differential perspective of those who served --

Do you consider the Cold War "peacetime" -- with the Korean War, Hungarian uprising, Prague Spring, Pueblo incident, Cuban missile crisis, Vietnam, Iran hostage crisis, Granada, Panama, Balkan conflicts, Somalia (Blackhawk down) et. al. ?

Post Cold War/pre 9-11 -- Balkan conflicts, Somalia (Blackhawk down), Desert Shield. Desert Storm, Provide Comfort, Northern & Southern Watch no-fly zones, Desert Fox, USS Stark, USS Cole

Do you differentiate those who chose to enter service, or remain beyond initial obligation, before & after the draft existed ?

Or do you perhaps have a sliding scale of regard which better aligns with your political prejudices ?

Although not as well publicized (or as politicized) as the "dignified transfer of remains" via Dover (a horrible military term used to describe the final journey home), service members who perish during your malleable definition of "peacetime" are still afforded full military honors.

When you take the oath to serve you are not assured "peacetime" for your entire term of obligated service.

as if I don't understand that there's risk of being in harm's way during all such periods. Did you read what I wrote about my dad's experience? Not sure what "political prejudices" you think I may have with regard to military service and how those would impact these questions.

But yeah, I do "differentiate" the risk taken between those who entered service specifically because there was a hot war to be fought, knowing that's very likely what they would be doing, and actually did go into combat, and those who did so during peacetime because they'd f'd up in HS and had few college or career choices. Much less those who phonied up an excuse or pulled strings to avoid danger, service in a hot war.

The latter doesn't apply to you, as I understand it (Annapolis?), but does for many who enter service that way. Though I "differentiate" the risk involved in that choice, and the motivation of that choice, I'm certainly not denigrating the latter choice in life path. Indeed, lots of those who do so grow up and turn out to be terrific people, contributing members of society...and some die in that service. I certainly wouldn't have it any other way in terms of 'full military honors'.

However, I also don't automatically impute "honor" to anyone simply because they "served", though my tendency would be to give the benefit of the doubt of such absent evidence to the contrary. But not all who served, at any particular level, did so honorably regardless of how long they were in or what their official exit from service was. But those who did so honorably and bravely certainly do deserve respect and appreciation for that service.

So, too, do others who serve and contribute to their communities honorably, just not in the military.

That's my view, not black and white, more nuanced...not sure how "political prejudices" would have anything to do with it.

I understand your position, however it is simplistic & too black & white. There are several components of the military where the possibility of combat is everpresent, regardless of the news of the day. Those also tend to be the units which endure the greatest risk & suffer the most casualties during training & "routine" operations.

In 1966, as a 17 year old, 1 month out of HS, I entered service during a hot war. I did so despite the fact that we were at war, not because of it. Combat operations for which I qualified ended as I was about to enter the final phase of training prior to deployment. When I chose to serve, there was no way I could reasonably anticipate whether or not I would see combat. It does not work that way.

c&s has told us that he was an Army paratrooper (82nd Airborne, I believe ?) in the late '70's, during the Iranian hostage crisis. Do you recall Desert One? Additionally, that was the height of the Cold War. Our Airborne Divisions were in a constant state of readiness for rapid deployment to Europe, Iran or Korea. The E border of W Germany was heavily fortified with NATO forces constantly in the field & on alert. Likewise in Korea. In 1976, I was deployed aboard the USS Kirk as she switched home ports from San Diego to Japan. Shortly after our initial arrival in Yokosuka, we were ordered back to sea, on short notice, as part of the Midway battle group. We sailed around the Japanese mainland, into the Sea of Japan, E of Korea, within striking distance, after 2 US Army officers were killed near the DMZ in the "tree war". You may have been tuned out at the time but it was real to those of us involved.

You mean the Desert One you laugh about? Those copters still there? Someone should have told them there is sand in the desert….that Desert One?

Your view is not minced and too obtuse because you never served. Only military folks can understand that and be worldly enough to be experts in metaphysics of all topics.

Tiring. This is the same stuff general yell at their “civilian” bosses like congress all the time. The military works for the citizens of this country not the other way around. There’s no military (consequently no military training for these stiffs) without citizens to represent and foot the bill. It’s like parks and recreation telling you that you can’t opine into your kids crappy tennis game because they clean the courts.

I know enough people who’ve been shot, flew apache choppers in Iraq during desert storm etc and those folks never, ever, ever act like or take the position that the ones on these boards do. I repeat the ones who’ve been through hell don’t act like this or ever take this position.

Never served so I don’t understand why Jimmy sending those boys in and crashed is humorous.

Where in the hell did you come with the idea OS thought the failure of operation eagle claw was humorous? None of my fellow soldiers thought there was a god damn funny thing about it all. Jimmy Carter made a ballsy call to go forward with a very dangerous and complicated rescue mission. There are a lot of things i disagreed with Jimmy Carter about and i voted for him. His decision to try and rescue our people was the correct thing to do. I can't speak for OS but a damn well know he didn't think anything about the failure of the mission was funny. OS and Jimmy Carter were both decorated naval officers. I'm certain OS will speak for himself but i know he never thought the failure of this mission was humorous. Those of us serving at the time only felt the very painful loss of our fellow comrades. It hurt for me back then and it still hurt today. Especially when having viewed these fallen service members having their burnt bodies desecrated and humiliated for their families to see. Funny how nobody on this forum seems to remember that. It is okay to tell me to STFU and honor those people that died today. Got it... read all you libs Lima Charlie on that one.

[Farfromgeneva]

Bs bs bs

[cradleandshoot]

+1
Today should indeed be a day of remembrance and reflection.
Quite a few us lost friends or family that day.

Today is a day to remember and reflect. It also should be a day to assure all Americans that it will never again. I don't know if that is the case anymore. Bad people with bad intentions still want to kill as many Americans as possible.

[cradleandshoot]

Bs bs bs

Where were you in 1980 eight ball?? Was the chit in yer diapers still yellow? Why don't you go do some wheeling and dealing and make yourself millions.