All things CoronaVirus

[Farfromgeneva]

Ivermectin usage for COVID-19 is not recommended by most of the medical establishment simply because there is not enough evidence that it actually works better than a placebo. There are SOME studies, AFAIK mostly flawed in some way, that show a positive effect, but others which do not.

So if the risk of using (and an antiparasitic agent definitely has risks) is greater than the benefit, why choose it?

it is being used in africa. and in latin america. and in india. probably a good deal others. based on what, i'm not rabbit holing that.
the fcccc? doc posted several days ago listed a good many studies that aren't randomized, double blinded, mostly from latin america. a number of studies were large, with some outsized (50-75%) results.

the principle trial double blind/randomized should be robust and have results i think? in months, not years. also an arm for favipiravir. they're setting a 14 day limit from test/symptoms and a baseline for symptoms/at risk. personally if we're trying out these anti-inflammatories, anti-virals for early treatment options i wish they'd do something much closer to symptoms/test and all manner of candidates. can't have everything. many ivm treatment studies or protocols being used have more of a whole kit of prescribed treatments, though i have no idea if they're supposed to work in concert to amplify any possible gain.
any event, if there is any outsized gain for ivm or favipiravir "early", it should? show with the first larger trial.

given we've not found an effective early/anti-viral yet proven to our standards, it's like cov-2 has gotten the better of those mechanisms. slippery.

the market is hopping for ivm. supposedly ~$ 0.12 to make in india at least, and going for $500-800 in some countries (couple bucks in bangladesh). and in 2020, india production jumped 4 1/2 fold. wonder what 2021 will be.
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 005_1.html
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 147v1.full

Not to defend or justify but production cost of all Medication that doesn’t include R&D expenses is just not useful. I prefer the European model of capitalizing R and expensing D but in the US we put both into a capital expenditure and the intangible asset bucket to be amortized over the life the the drug.

ya, i'm not sure how those treatment courses were priced overseas. it is a 40 year old drug of course now in generic, and if you can get an rx it looks like $10-25 stateside:
https://www.webmd.com/rx/drug-prices/ivermectin

More of a general response because a lot of folks toss around production costs as if that’s all it costs to develop a drug. Either they don’t understand or try to make it opaque, not that I thought you were doing that but somebody spent a lot of dough coming up with these, not to mention all the failed R&D that doesn’t pay off at all

[old salt]

A lot of people declining vaccination contracted the virus before vaccines were available to them, survived, & now maintain they have natural (or acquired) immunity that is equivalent to, or better than, being vaccinated. Increasing delta breakthrough infections & the emerging need for a booster, just raise more questions about the relative effectiveness of vaccination. This position has not been convincingly refuted.

[a fan]

You do understand that IVM has been inaccurately linked to bleach/HCQ/Trump as a political cudgel for the left and/or any virtue signaling exploiters?

Yes. Why? Are you going to pretend you don't know why?

Because these IVM-nuts aren't simply going to their doctor and asking "what the best course of prevention for me and my family if we don't want a severe case of Covid". They do that? Game over. We hit our 90%+ vaccination rate.

When we are there, just as we are with every single other vaccine? THEN you can talk about "other" treatments. No problem. Knock yourself out.

It's logic fail on a national scale, tech. You have school rooms full of angry parents, livid at the idea of either masks or forced vaccines. Do me a favor and ask these same parents "what immunizations were your children FORCED to take by State law so they could attend school".

These people are too far gone to understand they already gave up their freedoms so that their kid could attend K-12. Vaccines for everything from measels to polio. No one complained. No one squawked about freedom. They just did it, because....well...duh.

If IVM had been accurately and truthfully explained, the exploiters could not have created the "either/or" situation that you're belaboring.

You already explained why they can't do that----millions are using it INSTEAD OF the vaccine. THAT is who you should be blaming, tech.

THOSE are the people who aren't accurately and truthfully explaining the treatments we have available.

"de-worming" is both pejorative and a jerk's remark.

Yes. They're mocking idiots who believe one cure that they "read about on the internet", while at the same time ignore "what my doctor, who has multiple degrees, and actually knows what she's talking about, tells me is the best course of action".

[a fan]

A lot of people declining vaccination contracted the virus before vaccines were available to them, survived, & now maintain they have natural (or acquired) immunity that is equivalent to, or better than, being vaccinated. Increasing delta breakthrough infections & the emerging need for a booster, just raise more questions about the relative effectiveness of vaccination. This position has not been convincingly refuted.

Observer effect (which some confuse as Heisenberg's principle). Those that are questioning the effectiveness/safety, and not therefore not taking the vaccine, are ruining the observed results.

We can't tell how really effective this vaccine is on a macro level because millions haven't taken it, and that's just the US.

Let's run THAT experiment.

[kramerica.inc]

A lot of people declining vaccination contracted the virus before vaccines were available to them, survived, & now maintain they have natural (or acquired) immunity that is equivalent to, or better than, being vaccinated. Increasing delta breakthrough infections & the emerging need for a booster, just raise more questions about the relative effectiveness of vaccination. This position has not been convincingly refuted.

Didn't the first vaccine lessen your chances of getting Covid AND help your body fight it if you get Covid in the future?
Shouldn't the latter still be true? Variant or not?

[kramerica.inc]

A lot of people declining vaccination contracted the virus before vaccines were available to them, survived, & now maintain they have natural (or acquired) immunity that is equivalent to, or better than, being vaccinated. Increasing delta breakthrough infections & the emerging need for a booster, just raise more questions about the relative effectiveness of vaccination. This position has not been convincingly refuted.

Observer effect (which some confuse as Heisenberg's principle). Those that are questioning the effectiveness/safety, and not therefore not taking the vaccine, are ruining the observed results.

We can't tell how really effective this vaccine is on a macro level because millions haven't taken it, and that's just the US.

Let's run THAT experiment.

Someting else to consider- I have a friend who got Covid before the vaccine was released. He can't get vaccinated now because of all his long-term Covid side effects. Tough scene.

[a fan]

A lot of people declining vaccination contracted the virus before vaccines were available to them, survived, & now maintain they have natural (or acquired) immunity that is equivalent to, or better than, being vaccinated. Increasing delta breakthrough infections & the emerging need for a booster, just raise more questions about the relative effectiveness of vaccination. This position has not been convincingly refuted.

Observer effect (which some confuse as Heisenberg's principle). Those that are questioning the effectiveness/safety, and not therefore not taking the vaccine, are ruining the observed results.

We can't tell how really effective this vaccine is on a macro level because millions haven't taken it, and that's just the US.

Let's run THAT experiment.

Someting else to consider- I have a friend who got Covid before the vaccine was released. He can't get vaccinated now because of all his long-term Covid side effects. Tough scene.

My daughter can't get it yet, either. I have considered all of this.

My point is simple: do what your doctor tells you. Do that? I'm happy. If your doctor tells you "skip the vaccine, and take IVM", I'm cool with that. But we all know that's not what's happening with those who are skipping the vaccine.

Heck, we've asked our doctor about masking, too. There's a reason I pay this woman A LOT of money. I want her expertise.

We aren't qualified to make these decisions on our own. And I KNOW everyone believes this. Why? Because everyone who faces a life threatening illness heads to their doctor or hospital.....not to their laptop to see what "some guy on the internet" thinks.

Frustrated Dad.

[kramerica.inc]

I'm happy to see a different approach than this past spring here in MD at my son's school.
Last year, if a team or cohort had a positive covid test, they shut down the whole group for 10 days.
This year, the person with covid must leave for 10 days and anyone unvaccinated with close contact remains out for 10 days.
If you are vaccinated you can continue participating.

[a fan]

I'm happy to see a different approach than this past spring here in MD at my son's school.
Last year, if a team or cohort had a positive covid test, they shut down the whole group for 10 days.
This year, the person with covid must leave for 10 days and anyone unvaccinated with close contact remains out for 10 days.
If you are vaccinated you can continue participating.

What a strange place we're in, where kids eligible for life saving vaccines aren't taking them. Forgive me, but I just don't understand it.

Here's a list of all the vaccine those kids MUST take, if they are to set foot in k-12 Maryland School....

https://health.maryland.gov/phpa/OIDEOR ... _Final.pdf


What happens when "vaccine woke" parents start removing those laws, because they think they have the right to allow their kids to get polio?

[Farfromgeneva]

Whatever happened to fake IDs or weed cards?

Vermont Troopers Resign Amid Allegations of Covid-19 Vaccine-Card Fraud
FBI is investigating accusations, first brought by other troopers

The Moderna Covid-19 vaccine is prepared at a clinic in Brattleboro, Vt.
PHOTO: KRISTOPHER RADDER/ASSOCIATED PRESS
By Allison Prang
Sept. 8, 2021 12:41 pm ET

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Three Vermont State Police troopers have resigned following allegations they were involved in making fake Covid-19 vaccination cards, police officials said.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation is probing the troopers’ alleged roles in making the fake vaccine cards, the state police said.

Two of the troopers, Shawn Sommers and Raymond Witkowski, submitted their resignations about a month ago, and David Pfindel resigned effective last week, state police said. Messrs. Sommers and Witkowski had been with the state police since 2016, and Mr. Pfindel joined in 2014.


A spokesman for the state police didn’t provide contact information for the three troopers. The Vermont Troopers’ Association, which represents members of the Vermont State Police, didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment.

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Other troopers brought up the allegations internally, Vermont Public Safety Commissioner Michael Schirling said. The issue has since been referred to the FBI and the U.S. attorney’s office in Burlington, the state police said.

“If these allegations are proved to be true, it is reprehensible that state troopers would manipulate vaccination cards in the midst of a pandemic, when being vaccinated is one of the most important steps anyone can take to keep their community safe from Covid-19,” said Vermont State Police Director Col. Matthew Birmingham.

The FBI issued a public-service announcement in March advising people that it is illegal to make or buy a fake Covid-19 vaccination card. Creating counterfeit versions of the cards is a federal crime because they carry an official government agency’s seal.

Government investigators and cybersecurity experts have said the number of schemes selling illegal proof of vaccination has increased, popping up in places like the dark web and on social-media sites.

U.S. Customs and Border Protection in Memphis last month intercepted a shipment from China that contained 51 counterfeit Covid-19 vaccination cards, which included a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention logo and space for personal information to be filled in.

Covid Vaccine Efficacy Numbers, Explained
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Covid Vaccine Efficacy Numbers, Explained
Covid Vaccine Efficacy Numbers, Explained
Recent studies have shown that the effectiveness of Covid-19 vaccines is decreasing, though experts say the shots still work well. WSJ explains what the numbers mean and why they don’t tell the full story. Photo illustration: Jacob Reynolds/WSJ
Write to Allison Prang at [email protected]

[youthathletics]

I'm happy to see a different approach than this past spring here in MD at my son's school.
Last year, if a team or cohort had a positive covid test, they shut down the whole group for 10 days.
This year, the person with covid must leave for 10 days and anyone unvaccinated with close contact remains out for 10 days.
If you are vaccinated you can continue participating.

What a strange place we're in, where kids eligible for life saving vaccines aren't taking them. Forgive me, but I just don't understand it.

Here's a list of all the vaccine those kids MUST take, if they are to set foot in k-12 Maryland School....

https://health.maryland.gov/phpa/OIDEOR ... _Final.pdf


What happens when "vaccine woke" parents start removing those laws, because they think they have the right to allow their kids to get polio?

Not to pick a nit, b/c I am with you, but not having the vaccine cleared by the FDA caused a ton or reluctance. And still, only one of the 3 is approved.

I am fighting it now in our business with people digging in like an Alabama tick with their refusal. It is a daily occurrence shuffling labor around as businesses require only vaccinated personnel on their sites. A few have said...okay I am going to get vaccinated after transferring them off their gravy accounts.

[MDlaxfan76]

A lot of people declining vaccination contracted the virus before vaccines were available to them, survived, & now maintain they have natural (or acquired) immunity that is equivalent to, or better than, being vaccinated. Increasing delta breakthrough infections & the emerging need for a booster, just raise more questions about the relative effectiveness of vaccination. This position has not been convincingly refuted.

You do realize that there are lots of 'breakthrough' infections of prior infected persons?

The level of immunity wanes. The vaccine regimen has indeed been demonstrated to create more immunity than a general infection (many of which are so mild as to have generated little immune response). But more than immunity, the chances of severe case, hospitalization, death etc go way down with vaccine regimen.

But one shot ain't enough. Just like an initial infection ain't enough. It's gonna take multiple shots, and we'll learn more as we go along and have more experience with it.

Variants throw a wild card into all of this, of course.

[MDlaxfan76]

I'm happy to see a different approach than this past spring here in MD at my son's school.
Last year, if a team or cohort had a positive covid test, they shut down the whole group for 10 days.
This year, the person with covid must leave for 10 days and anyone unvaccinated with close contact remains out for 10 days.
If you are vaccinated you can continue participating.

What a strange place we're in, where kids eligible for life saving vaccines aren't taking them. Forgive me, but I just don't understand it.

Here's a list of all the vaccine those kids MUST take, if they are to set foot in k-12 Maryland School....

https://health.maryland.gov/phpa/OIDEOR ... _Final.pdf


What happens when "vaccine woke" parents start removing those laws, because they think they have the right to allow their kids to get polio?

Not to pick a nit, b/c I am with you, but not having the vaccine cleared by the FDA caused a ton or reluctance. And still, only one of the 3 is approved.

I am fighting it now in our business with people digging in like an Alabama tick with their refusal. It is a daily occurrence shuffling labor around as businesses require only vaccinated personnel on their sites. A few have said...okay I am going to get vaccinated after transferring them off their gravy accounts.

No, all 3 are approved for emergency use, based on tremendous amounts of data.

The next step in the process has been completed on one, other two will be shortly.

But of course, that's not the end...age range, boosters, and other tweaks and adds to come.

[MDlaxfan76]

I'm happy to see a different approach than this past spring here in MD at my son's school.
Last year, if a team or cohort had a positive covid test, they shut down the whole group for 10 days.
This year, the person with covid must leave for 10 days and anyone unvaccinated with close contact remains out for 10 days.
If you are vaccinated you can continue participating.

It's high time to say, nope, if you're not vaccinated, you're out, off the team, not allowed in school. (absent very rare medical reason). No politics.

But if you are vaccinated, and there's been a breakthrough, then infected out in quarantine, others get monitored closely, all wear masks religiously...but continue forward.

[MDlaxfan76]

A lot of people declining vaccination contracted the virus before vaccines were available to them, survived, & now maintain they have natural (or acquired) immunity that is equivalent to, or better than, being vaccinated. Increasing delta breakthrough infections & the emerging need for a booster, just raise more questions about the relative effectiveness of vaccination. This position has not been convincingly refuted.

Observer effect (which some confuse as Heisenberg's principle). Those that are questioning the effectiveness/safety, and not therefore not taking the vaccine, are ruining the observed results.

We can't tell how really effective this vaccine is on a macro level because millions haven't taken it, and that's just the US.

Let's run THAT experiment.

Someting else to consider- I have a friend who got Covid before the vaccine was released. He can't get vaccinated now because of all his long-term Covid side effects. Tough scene.

And that would indeed be one of those very rare, but real, medical exceptions...allowances need to be made for those few cases.

[seacoaster]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1435635717078671362

[youthathletics]

I'm happy to see a different approach than this past spring here in MD at my son's school.
Last year, if a team or cohort had a positive covid test, they shut down the whole group for 10 days.
This year, the person with covid must leave for 10 days and anyone unvaccinated with close contact remains out for 10 days.
If you are vaccinated you can continue participating.

What a strange place we're in, where kids eligible for life saving vaccines aren't taking them. Forgive me, but I just don't understand it.

Here's a list of all the vaccine those kids MUST take, if they are to set foot in k-12 Maryland School....

https://health.maryland.gov/phpa/OIDEOR ... _Final.pdf


What happens when "vaccine woke" parents start removing those laws, because they think they have the right to allow their kids to get polio?

Not to pick a nit, b/c I am with you, but not having the vaccine cleared by the FDA caused a ton or reluctance. And still, only one of the 3 is approved.

I am fighting it now in our business with people digging in like an Alabama tick with their refusal. It is a daily occurrence shuffling labor around as businesses require only vaccinated personnel on their sites. A few have said...okay I am going to get vaccinated after transferring them off their gravy accounts.

No, all 3 are approved for emergency use, based on tremendous amounts of data.

The next step in the process has been completed on one, other two will be shortly.

But of course, that's not the end...age range, boosters, and other tweaks and adds to come.

That is exactly what I said...only one of the 3 been approved.

[MDlaxfan76]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1435635717078671362

Plainspoken GOP Governor.

[MDlaxfan76]

I'm happy to see a different approach than this past spring here in MD at my son's school.
Last year, if a team or cohort had a positive covid test, they shut down the whole group for 10 days.
This year, the person with covid must leave for 10 days and anyone unvaccinated with close contact remains out for 10 days.
If you are vaccinated you can continue participating.

What a strange place we're in, where kids eligible for life saving vaccines aren't taking them. Forgive me, but I just don't understand it.

Here's a list of all the vaccine those kids MUST take, if they are to set foot in k-12 Maryland School....

https://health.maryland.gov/phpa/OIDEOR ... _Final.pdf


What happens when "vaccine woke" parents start removing those laws, because they think they have the right to allow their kids to get polio?

Not to pick a nit, b/c I am with you, but not having the vaccine cleared by the FDA caused a ton or reluctance. And still, only one of the 3 is approved.

I am fighting it now in our business with people digging in like an Alabama tick with their refusal. It is a daily occurrence shuffling labor around as businesses require only vaccinated personnel on their sites. A few have said...okay I am going to get vaccinated after transferring them off their gravy accounts.

No, all 3 are approved for emergency use, based on tremendous amounts of data.

The next step in the process has been completed on one, other two will be shortly.

But of course, that's not the end...age range, boosters, and other tweaks and adds to come.

That is exactly what I said...only one of the 3 been approved.

Yes, technically there's a difference between authorized (for use) and approved (for marketing), but when people say this they intend to actually throw doubt on the authorization.

But all 3 were "cleared" for emergency use, one has been "cleared" for marketing, others will be as well shortly.

[old salt]

A lot of people declining vaccination contracted the virus before vaccines were available to them, survived, & now maintain they have natural (or acquired) immunity that is equivalent to, or better than, being vaccinated. Increasing delta breakthrough infections & the emerging need for a booster, just raise more questions about the relative effectiveness of vaccination. This position has not been convincingly refuted.

You do realize that there are lots of 'breakthrough' infections of prior infected persons?

The level of immunity wanes. The vaccine regimen has indeed been demonstrated to create more immunity than a general infection (many of which are so mild as to have generated little immune response). But more than immunity, the chances of severe case, hospitalization, death etc go way down with vaccine regimen.

But one shot ain't enough. Just like an initial infection ain't enough. It's gonna take multiple shots, and we'll learn more as we go along and have more experience with it.

Variants throw a wild card into all of this, of course.

It's not what I realize that matters. It's what the formerly infected, still not vaccinated realize, that matters.

They see a doc from JHU on tv everyday who tells them that natural immunity is more effective than vaccinated immunity & no one is citing studies which refute that assertion.