Taliban reclaims Afghanistan

[jhu72]

An Afghan take on why we lost. Most Afghans found the Taliban preferable.

To a foreign occupier propping up a corrupt gov't, no kidding. Old story.

... still so many in Washington and American didn't get it, still don't.

[PizzaSnake]

Another opportunist. Threatening the Ambassador and staff? Pretty sure that's a felony. Lock this cretin up.

"Mullin was outraged by the response, the officials said — threatening U.S. Ambassador John Mark Pommersheim and embassy staff and demanding to know the name of staff members he was speaking with."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html

[old salt]

An Afghan take on why we lost. Most Afghans found the Taliban preferable.

...except for the Afghans clinging to the departing airplanes or crushed at the airport. That's just one opinion. He served 2010-12. Few Afghans came into contact with Americans in the past few years, once we downsized & stopped doing PRT's.

[old salt]

IMHO, we should limit it to that, until we get everyone we want out. There should be no hint of financial aid or lifting sanctions unless/until we get everyone out. The State Dept should stand down -- they've done enough to screw this up.

I dunno about keeping the State Dept out, think that horse has left the barn, but agree generally with the rest.

State Dept was in the lead. After Bagram closed in early July, DoD was limited to just 660 troops to secure the Embassy & HKIA.
Should have retained (at least) 2500 troops as the last ones out on 8/31, working with ASF & NATO allies to keep Bagram & other airfields open for departures. When the ASF collapsed, the 8/31 deadline went away & we could better depart from defensible positions.

[Typical Lax Dad]

An Afghan take on why we lost. Most Afghans found the Taliban preferable.

...except for the Afghans clinging to the departing airplanes or crushed at the airport. That's just one opinion. He served 2010-12. Few Afghans came into contact with Americans in the past few years, once we downsized & stopped doing PRT's.

ALM. You need the yard sign.

[Brooklyn]

An Afghan take on why we lost. Most Afghans found the Taliban preferable.

To a foreign occupier propping up a corrupt gov't, no kidding. Old story.

... still so many in Washington and American didn't get it, still don't.

A point I made numerous times when I answered the assertion made here that one would not accept the change in Afghanistan until it accepts democratization. As the article points out culture is the key to winning that country. Quoting the article: "Western powers exhibited "hubris" in viewing "Afghan traditions as an obstacle to be overcome when, it turns out, they were the lifeblood of the country's political culture ... And this left the door open for the slow return of the Taliban," ... US officials "rarely" had even a "mediocre understanding of the environment" they were operating in." To the people there in their culture democratization means absolutely nothing. It is as worthless as yesterday's toilet paper. Therefore, forget about democratization. Just let them be.

[Brooklyn]

An Afghan take on why we lost. Most Afghans found the Taliban preferable.

...except for the Afghans clinging to the departing airplanes or crushed at the airport.

In a country of nearly 40 million those few who suddenly took those strange flying lessons represent a very small minority of people. Had they chosen to remain loyal to their country rather than to imperialistic invaders who murdered 100,000 of their countrymen nobody would have accused them of treason and they could have lived peaceably in that land.

[Typical Lax Dad]

An Afghan take on why we lost. Most Afghans found the Taliban preferable.

To a foreign occupier propping up a corrupt gov't, no kidding. Old story.

... still so many in Washington and American didn't get it, still don't.

A point I made numerous times when I answered the assertion made here that one would not accept the change in Afghanistan until it accepts democratization. As the article points out culture is the key to winning that country. Quoting the article: "Western powers exhibited "hubris" in viewing "Afghan traditions as an obstacle to be overcome when, it turns out, they were the lifeblood of the country's political culture ... And this left the door open for the slow return of the Taliban," ... US officials "rarely" had even a "mediocre understanding of the environment" they were operating in." To the people there in their culture democratization means absolutely nothing. It is as worthless as yesterday's toilet paper. Therefore, forget about democratization. Just let them be.

Amanpour interviewed a woman that said pretty much the same thing. Also pointed out that after experiencing shakedowns time after time year after year for 10 years….anyone other than the government is a good option. Many didn’t see the point in fighting for a corrupt government. Tired of being fleeced.

[Brooklyn]

Amanpour interviewed a woman that said pretty much the same thing. Also pointed out that after experiencing shakedowns time after time year after year for 10 years….anyone other than the government is a good option. Many didn’t see the point in fighting for a corrupt government. Tired of being fleeced.

I watched part of the show this evening with a segment conducted by someone else as a former marine said the USA "betrayed" Afghanistan by leaving. At no point did the interviewer asked how does he reconcile that claim with the fact that the USA gave the country over $2.5 trillion with engineering that modernized the society while projects in our country floundered for lack of funding. We trained soldiers and government, improved that country in every way imaginable, and the corrupt government and wealthy elitists happily took that money while the poor there got nothing. Small wonder why the populace support the Taliban. Americans sacrificed and were deprived of funding that would have given us similar beneficial projects during that time. Afghans were "betrayed"? If so, then what does that mean about what the government did to us? We sacrificed and got back nothing. If anything, WE were the ones who were betrayed, just like the majority of the Afghans.

[cradleandshoot]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrze ... 73934316ba

Just when it seemed like Biden couldn't screw things up worse than he already has... he outdoes himself yet again. What is that term all the libs on this forum opine about ad nauseum??? I remember now... TRANSPARENCY!! I wonder if his administration can scrub those 13 dead members of the US military too. I wonder what Joes hurry was when he went to Dover to greet those caskets? Why did he have to keep looking at his watch? He musta had someplace more important to be?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... ng&pc=U531

[jhu72]

... bad look.

[kramerica.inc]

An Afghan take on why we lost. Most Afghans found the Taliban preferable.

To a foreign occupier propping up a corrupt gov't, no kidding. Old story.

Corrupt government is the problem.

But this article touches upon some of the positives I alluded to earlier, even if not derived perfectly:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=us

Some of what I was alluding to with the generation that has grown up with US occupation and ideas:

the U.S.-led intervention in 2001 sparked an important transformation. In dislodging the Taliban, American bombing, night raids and other abuses traumatized much of the population. At the same time, however, the end of the restrictive Taliban order proved beneficial. Additionally, the United Nations and United States rallied the international donor community to invest billions in nation-building and development in Afghanistan. This combination not only opened a space for many Afghans to reimagine their society, but also supported rebuilding it. Post 9/11, an estimated 70 percent of Afghanistan’s gross national income consisted of international development aid, with the United States as the largest donor.

Afghans utilized this aid to help construct a pluralistic civil society that values democracy, human rights and peace. Take for example the mediascape. Through new television, radio, Internet and social media platforms — as well as a burgeoning book industry — Afghans have found unprecedented avenues for political engagement and exchange. Depending on where they are in the country, Afghans can access anywhere from 30 to 100 free radio and television stations, a major change from life under the Taliban, which banned all independent media and tried to establish a monopoly for their Radio Shariah.

These outlets are a counterbalance to the government, warlords and foreign interests. They provide a vibrant public sphere hosting and nurturing important national debates about human rights, democracy, modernity and Islam. While Afghanistan remains dangerous for journalists and other media makers, this risk reflects the political importance of this new journalism. Reporters, activists and reformers have exerted considerable pressure on Afghan politicians, insisting on a kind of scrutiny to which Taliban leaders are unaccustomed. These outlets offer an opportunity to hold leaders accountable and make it much harder to stifle opposition than in the 1990s.

Further, Afghanistan has undergone a generational shift. Young Afghans born in the 1990s and early 2000s have grown up with different expectations. Thanks to exposure to this media, broader education and the promise of participatory politics, Afghan youths seek a voice in politics, even if they are not unanimous in their views on the future. While many are inclined toward secular democracy, others agitate for various forms of Islamist government.

[Brooklyn]

cradle,

TRANSPARENCY!! I wonder if his administration can scrub those 13 dead members of the US military too. I wonder what Joes hurry was when he went to Dover to greet those caskets?

Another pathetic post.

Talk about transparency ~ where are those WMD promised by your hero Bush? Or where is his "proof" that the Afghan people and government had some role in 9/1?

13 dead members of the military? How does that compare to the thousands killed because of traitor Bush's lies?

Greeting caskets? At least he was there. How often did Bush appear? Why were tRump's weekly golf vacations worthier of his time rather than making similar greetings?

[youthathletics]

So you agree, Biden is just as bad. Glad that is now settled. Now get off your GD high horse and stop acting like a 3rd grader that wont share the kickball.

[jhu72]

An Afghan take on why we lost. Most Afghans found the Taliban preferable.

...except for the Afghans clinging to the departing airplanes or crushed at the airport.

In a country of nearly 40 million those few who suddenly took those strange flying lessons represent a very small minority of people...

exactly

[MDlaxfan76]

IMHO, we should limit it to that, until we get everyone we want out. There should be no hint of financial aid or lifting sanctions unless/until we get everyone out. The State Dept should stand down -- they've done enough to screw this up.

I dunno about keeping the State Dept out, think that horse has left the barn, but agree generally with the rest.

State Dept was in the lead. After Bagram closed in early July, DoD was limited to just 660 troops to secure the Embassy & HKIA.
Should have retained (at least) 2500 troops as the last ones out on 8/31, working with ASF & NATO allies to keep Bagram & other airfields open for departures. When the ASF collapsed, the 8/31 deadline went away & we could better depart from defensible positions.

horse left the barn.

[PizzaSnake]

Looks like Scheller knows his goose is cooked.

'On Wednesday, in a since-deleted Facebook post, Scheller said he expects to be investigated for violating the code of military justice. “If it does go to court-martial, I will be found guilty, and will probably do some jail time,” he said. “This will provide me a valuable opportunity to read, write, and contemplate.”'

Like say Article 94?

"But Scheller went further, and seemed to call on men and women in uniform to rise up and resist civilian control. “Follow me, and we will bring the whole f---ing system down,” the lieutenant colonel said in a follow-up video on Sunday. “They only have the power because we allow it,” he added Monday on Facebook."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... ary-kabul/

Certainly his comments have been "leavenworthy"...

[Farfromgeneva]

An Afghan take on why we lost. Most Afghans found the Taliban preferable.

To a foreign occupier propping up a corrupt gov't, no kidding. Old story.

... still so many in Washington and American didn't get it, still don't.

A point I made numerous times when I answered the assertion made here that one would not accept the change in Afghanistan until it accepts democratization. As the article points out culture is the key to winning that country. Quoting the article: "Western powers exhibited "hubris" in viewing "Afghan traditions as an obstacle to be overcome when, it turns out, they were the lifeblood of the country's political culture ... And this left the door open for the slow return of the Taliban," ... US officials "rarely" had even a "mediocre understanding of the environment" they were operating in." To the people there in their culture democratization means absolutely nothing. It is as worthless as yesterday's toilet paper. Therefore, forget about democratization. Just let them be.

Amanpour interviewed a woman that said pretty much the same thing. Also pointed out that after experiencing shakedowns time after time year after year for 10 years….anyone other than the government is a good option. Many didn’t see the point in fighting for a corrupt government. Tired of being fleeced.

That makes the Taliban about the same as the MaGA crew but for some reason a person keeps insisting they are better and freely chosen option of the people of Afghanistan which is specious at best. Otherwise the same person should shut up about human rights throughout the globe because it’s moronic to halt our humanity at some contrived border.

[old salt]

An Afghan take on why we lost. Most Afghans found the Taliban preferable.

...except for the Afghans clinging to the departing airplanes or crushed at the airport.

In a country of nearly 40 million those few who suddenly took those strange flying lessons represent a very small minority of people...

exactly

Just think again about what you are saying & who the Taliban are. They are committed to brutally imposing, by force, their radical version of Sharia law. We are forced to work with them now, in the short term, because we have no other option, to get, just some, of our fellow Americans, Afghan allies & their families, out alive.

The sugar coating & rebranding of these barbarians is nauseating. In a historical context, what we are witnessing now would be the equivalent of the Allies negotiating peace during the Battle of the Bulge, & leaving Europe, east of the Rhine, to the tender mercies of the Nazis, then helping them consolidate their control, as the Vichy French did. THAT is just a part of the reason why so many veterans are exasperated with our abandonment of the Afghan people.

By necessity, we are forced to work with the Taliban, for now. But never lose sight of who they are, what they have done, & will do again.

[jhu72]

An Afghan take on why we lost. Most Afghans found the Taliban preferable.

...except for the Afghans clinging to the departing airplanes or crushed at the airport.

In a country of nearly 40 million those few who suddenly took those strange flying lessons represent a very small minority of people...

exactly

Just think again about what you are saying & who the Taliban are. They are committed to brutally imposing, by force, their radical version of Sharia law. We are forced to work with them now, in the short term, because we have no other option, to get, just some, of our fellow Americans, Afghan allies & their families, out alive.

The sugar coating & rebranding of these barbarians is nauseating. In a historical context, what we are witnessing now would be the equivalent of the Allies negotiating peace during the Battle of the Bulge, & leaving Europe, east of the Rhine, to the tender mercies of the Nazis, then helping them consolidate their control, as the Vichy French did. THAT is just a part of the reason why so many veterans are exasperated with our abandonment of the Afghan people.

By necessity, we are forced to work with the Taliban, for now. But never lose sight of who they are, what they have done, & will do again.

... I have made no comment on who the Taliban are or what they have done. My point is they are more popular in Afghanistan than the US. They can be butt holes and more popular than us in their own country.

Now if we are going to talk about people fawning over the Taliban - US far right has a curious affinity for the Taliban.