Taliban reclaims Afghanistan

[Brooklyn]

kramerica.inc,

it extremely evident that even if the overall US military mission of defeating the taliban was a flop, the soldiers work, and our presence WAS a good thing to many, many people there

Was the cost of $2.5 trillion and the loss of 100,000 civilians along with all the American casualties worth it?

[MDlaxfan76]

+1, kram.
You're completely missing the point and yet again exposing what a cesspool social media is, Brook.
The point is the empty feeling one has who is personally involved is a whole lot different than those
who are not. Like the people who would say something like you just did. Really sorry I posted my
experience with the guy at this point.

consider the poster dmac...your posts matter, heavily I might add.

And I'm genuinely interested in this guy's views.
They may be simply one data point, but interesting to understand nevertheless.

It wasn't, at least to me, so much "confusing" as simply not complete as to what he thinks as well as feels (the emotions certainly came through).

[MDlaxfan76]

Wow, go to the grocery store and run into an Army Captain, has nineteen years in (was a Master Sergeant before going the officer route), pretty hard core, an all about it Army boy (I'd want him on my team, sharp fella). Being my usual aszwhole self I said to him as we were passing in the aisle, "You, got the whole show under control, Captain?" I wasn't thinking Afghanistan when I said that, just making general conversation, but he sure was (I should have known better). Talk about a thoroughly disgusted and pizzed off boy...wow! His entire nineteen years we've been involved in that war, guy had done a couple of tours, pretty much 'nuff said there. Same ol' story, when you're personally involved it's a whole different ballgame. We can all sit and point fingers, pizz and moan, Monday morning quarterback and have all the answers but when you've been there, done that, actually seen it, felt it, and been a part of it, it has a whole different level of affect on you. Shared some similar experiences and witnessings as well as feeling of complete disgust with the guy. Wasn't what you'd call a nice chat but it was a good one, felt bad for the guy, he's hurting. GIs lied to, strung along, and kicked in the balls in the end yet again. Guy plans on doing another fifteen years, I want this guy in our Army, impressive young man.

So, can you share more about what the Master Sergeant's opinions were, having been there?

Or is he still 'processing' what it all means, is simply (and understandably) emotional at this point?

And do I read this correctly that he's had two tours and is just 19?

I read DMac as 19 years in the Army with two tours there. Master Sgt is an E-8 and it takes years just to get that far up the NCO ranks.

Ahh, I definitely misread...thanks.
I thought that might be the case and simply wanted to be sure... the 'boy' and the "his entire 19 years" had me on the wrong track, but you're 100% correct, of course.

He's a Captain...how'd I miss that?

[seacoaster]

+1, kram.
You're completely missing the point and yet again exposing what a cesspool social media is, Brook.
The point is the empty feeling one has who is personally involved is a whole lot different than those
who are not. Like the people who would say something like you just did. Really sorry I posted my
experience with the guy at this point.

Really sorry? Don't be. Actual interactions with people who were on the ground in Afghanistan are nearly unknown to me. This is the sort of anecdote I am here for. Keep it going DMac.

[MDlaxfan76]

Of course you're correct, 6.
You mean the Captain's opinions, MDlax. No, you are not reading it correctly, he's been in the Army for nineteen years, started out as an enlisted man, reached the rank of Master Sgt. then got his commission and is now an officer (Capt). Undoubtedly went to college while he was in and did the necessary stuff to get his commission (he'd be higher ranking than Captain after nineteen years had he come in as an officer).
Didn't get into any specifics with him about his experiences, just more general conversation about having seen this movie before myself and how we don't learn from our mistakes and the general feeling of disgust in yet again being on the "losing" team. Yes, he's pizzed, maybe very frustrated and hugely disappointed in the way we go about war anymore.

Thanks, as I said to 6,

I can certainly understand the frustration, though wouldn't ever think I can truly know the experience from afar.

I'd said in an earlier post several days ago, these guys and gals who were there have to be really hurting, whole gamut of emotions.

[MDlaxfan76]

+1, kram.
You're completely missing the point and yet again exposing what a cesspool social media is, Brook.
The point is the empty feeling one has who is personally involved is a whole lot different than those
who are not. Like the people who would say something like you just did. Really sorry I posted my
experience with the guy at this point.

consider the poster dmac...your posts matter, heavily I might add.

I posted a video a few days ago exploring everyday life in Afghanistan.
I personally didn't see the need for the US to be involved in the country's affairs. But the video made it extremely evident that even if the overall US military mission of defeating the taliban was a flop, the soldiers work, and our presence WAS a good thing to many, many people there.

If you watch the video you'll see, quite plainly- Our soldiers gave the Afghanis a taste of freedom in things like:
Living without fear of persecution, being able to live life or practice their religion their own way, freedom to vote, freedom to elect women to leadership. All of these things and these IDEAS of freedom were beneficial to many, many people- for 2 decades. That's not insignificant. Those seeds will grow and hopefully take root for future generations there. We shall see.

Let's hope so.
As to Brooklyn's was it worth it (overall) question, maybe not...but that wasn't what you were saying.

Just that the soldiers on the ground should be proud of their efforts and can at least hope that they not only helped many people in the moment, they may have even sowed the seeds for future good.

[old salt]

Miley just said in press conference that he could see us cooperating in the future with the Taliban.

Maybe they'll provide coordinates for targeting ISIS-K, so we can rake out their rival for them.

[PizzaSnake]

Miley just said in press conference that he could see us cooperating in the future with the Taliban.

Maybe they'll provide coordinates for targeting ISIS-K, so we can rake out their rival for them.

I would hope that all of the materiel we provided had locating beacons...

[MDlaxfan76]

But you ain't left wing, right?

No, all we really know is that the most violent in Afghanistan are now back in power.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/09/27/ri ... ghanistan/

They have an opening to achieving real legitimacy, let's see if they take it this go round.

As a member of the "far, far" right, you hate it when the government tells you what to do. I can well imagine how outraged you would find it if a puppet government imposed by an invader told you what to do as well. Rather than succumb to right wing propaganda pieces like that you need to think for yourself. That rag which you just quoted does not even begin to acknowledge the truth that at no point did the Afghans consent to any invasion or to the imposition of a puppet regime whose lap dog leaders kissed up the butts of colonialist Bush or any one else in the White Wash House. For several weeks now we have all seen how Afghans stepped aside rather than take up arms against Talibani who walked into every provincial capitol and proclaimed themselves the rightful leaders. They did not usurp anything. They simply took what was theirs from the beginning because the majority of the Afghans never bought into the Western "crusade" against them. That isn't a "left" outlook. Just the truth whether you choose to believe it or not.

yeah, I'm a far right nut job.

Look, the Taliban forfeited any right to expect no retaliation when they allowed Bin Laden a safe haven from which he and AQ struck on 9-11 and then they failed to address that error themselves, instead celebrated that strike and protected Bin Laden.

That said, in hindsight, I do think we should have stepped back early on, having made our point, when the Taliban offered a surrender...or at a minimum not long after Bin Laden was taken out.

You're not going to persuade me that a "majority" of Afghans want Taliban rule, not until there's an actually free and fair election unmarred by threat of violence and in which a majority actually expresses that preference.

Until then, it's merely the nastiest, most brutal Afghans who are in charge...but here may be a little helpful hope, ISIS-K is even more violent and extremist, though far fewer in numbers, and the Taliban may well tack a bit more moderate in order to sustain public support for defeating that enemy of a more peaceful Afghanistan...could be interesting.

And they apparently want our help in doing so...ok with you if we help them?

[old salt]

+1, kram.
You're completely missing the point and yet again exposing what a cesspool social media is, Brook.
The point is the empty feeling one has who is personally involved is a whole lot different than those
who are not. Like the people who would say something like you just did. Really sorry I posted my
experience with the guy at this point.

consider the poster dmac...your posts matter, heavily I might add.

Good stuff, Shipmate. We know that feeling. The same feeling I had watching the video of my squadron mates repositioning Hueys in every available deck space of the USS Kirk, then landing more on the flight deck, helping the Vietnamese refugees go below deck, stripping out the avionics, then pushing the helo over the side, to clear the flight deck to land another. I sailed aboard the Kirk on her next deployment.

https://www.ellsworthamerican.com/livin ... -pbs-film/

[old salt]

Look, the Taliban forfeited any right to expect no retaliation when they allowed Bin Laden a safe haven from which he and AQ struck on 9-11 and then they failed to address that error themselves, instead celebrated that strike and protected Bin Laden.

That said, in hindsight, I do think we should have stepped back early on, having made our point, when the Taliban offered a surrender...or at a minimum not long after Bin Laden was taken out.

You're not going to persuade me that a "majority" of Afghans want Taliban rule, not until there's an actually free and fair election unmarred by threat of violence and in which a majority actually expresses that preference.

Until then, it's merely the nastiest, most brutal Afghans who are in charge...but here may be a little helpful hope, ISIS-K is even more violent and extremist, though far fewer in numbers, and the Taliban may well tack a bit more moderate in order to sustain public support for defeating that enemy of a more peaceful Afghanistan...could be interesting.

And they apparently want our help in doing so...ok with you if we help them?

We appear to have a pragmatic military to military working channel with the Taliban (victor to vanquished).

IMHO, we should limit it to that, until we get everyone we want out. There should be no hint of financial aid or lifting sanctions unless/until we get everyone out. The State Dept should stand down -- they've done enough to screw this up.

Quietly push Qatar & Turkey to keep working to open the airports & quietly get our people out.

[jhu72]

An Afghan take on why we lost. Most Afghans found the Taliban preferable.

[Brooklyn]

yeah, I'm a far right nut job.

Look, the Taliban forfeited any right to expect no retaliation when they allowed Bin Laden a safe haven from which he and AQ struck on 9-11 and then they failed to address that error themselves, instead celebrated that strike and protected Bin Laden.

That said, in hindsight, I do think we should have stepped back early on, having made our point, when the Taliban offered a surrender...or at a minimum not long after Bin Laden was taken out.

You're not going to persuade me that a "majority" of Afghans want Taliban rule, not until there's an actually free and fair election unmarred by threat of violence and in which a majority actually expresses that preference.

Until then, it's merely the nastiest, most brutal Afghans who are in charge...but here may be a little helpful hope, ISIS-K is even more violent and extremist, though far fewer in numbers, and the Taliban may well tack a bit more moderate in order to sustain public support for defeating that enemy of a more peaceful Afghanistan...could be interesting.

And they apparently want our help in doing so...ok with you if we help them?

~ safe haven ~

OBL went to Pakistan which means there was no reason to occupy that land and to impose an unpopular puppet regime.



~ free and fair election ~

Again, you missed a point I have made several times on this forum. That being that democracy is as alien to those people as monarchism is to you. Therefore, don't expect them to change just to stroke your ego. You make the change. Learn to adjust.



~ our help ~

I have not heard of the Taliban asking for help in ridding their land of ISIS-K (assuming that's what you mean). Will check for that later on.

[jhu72]

Miley just said in press conference that he could see us cooperating in the future with the Taliban.

Maybe they'll provide coordinates for targeting ISIS-K, so we can rake out their rival for them.

I would think that is a distinct possibility.

[youthathletics]

Miley just said in press conference that he could see us cooperating in the future with the Taliban.

Maybe they'll provide coordinates for targeting ISIS-K, so we can rake out their rival for them.

I would think that is a distinct possibility.

The good thing (hopefully) with leaving them our billions in equipment, is we should have even better logistics on them.

[jhu72]

Miley just said in press conference that he could see us cooperating in the future with the Taliban.

Maybe they'll provide coordinates for targeting ISIS-K, so we can rake out their rival for them.

I would think that is a distinct possibility.

The good thing (hopefully) with leaving them our billions in equipment, is we should have even better logistics on them.

... can sell them spare parts.

[youthathletics]

Miley just said in press conference that he could see us cooperating in the future with the Taliban.

Maybe they'll provide coordinates for targeting ISIS-K, so we can rake out their rival for them.

I would think that is a distinct possibility.

The good thing (hopefully) with leaving them our billions in equipment, is we should have even better logistics on them.

... can sell them spare parts.

well done jhu...

[MDlaxfan76]

Look, the Taliban forfeited any right to expect no retaliation when they allowed Bin Laden a safe haven from which he and AQ struck on 9-11 and then they failed to address that error themselves, instead celebrated that strike and protected Bin Laden.

That said, in hindsight, I do think we should have stepped back early on, having made our point, when the Taliban offered a surrender...or at a minimum not long after Bin Laden was taken out.

You're not going to persuade me that a "majority" of Afghans want Taliban rule, not until there's an actually free and fair election unmarred by threat of violence and in which a majority actually expresses that preference.

Until then, it's merely the nastiest, most brutal Afghans who are in charge...but here may be a little helpful hope, ISIS-K is even more violent and extremist, though far fewer in numbers, and the Taliban may well tack a bit more moderate in order to sustain public support for defeating that enemy of a more peaceful Afghanistan...could be interesting.

And they apparently want our help in doing so...ok with you if we help them?

We appear to have a pragmatic military to military working channel with the Taliban (victor to vanquished).

IMHO, we should limit it to that, until we get everyone we want out. There should be no hint of financial aid or lifting sanctions unless/until we get everyone out. The State Dept should stand down -- they've done enough to screw this up.

Quietly push Qatar & Turkey to keep working to open the airports & quietly get our people out.

I dunno about keeping the State Dept out, think that horse has left the barn, but agree generally with the rest.

[MDlaxfan76]

An Afghan take on why we lost. Most Afghans found the Taliban preferable.

To a foreign occupier propping up a corrupt gov't, no kidding. Old story.

[jhu72]

Vote-Vets Chairman supports Biden.