Taliban reclaims Afghanistan

[MDlaxfan76]

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/1 ... ban-505165
Support for the American military withdrawal from Afghanistan dropped 20 percentage points from April to August as the Taliban takeover of the country accelerated,
38 percent said the U.S. should still withdraw if the Taliban regains control of most of Afghanistan. Forty-five percent of voters said the U.S. should probably or definitely not withdraw, a larger share than those who generally opposed the decision to withdraw.
...& that was before the fall of Kabul, the evac debacle & the KIA's @ HKIA.

The American public has been lied to about this "war", this occupation, for 20 years, their opinions about it totally misinformed. The training of an Afghan force had been underway for 10 years at least. THAT'S the major failure here, the failure of the trainers and facilitators that threw money at the issue for years without a CLUE about the dynamics, the culture, of the country. The "government" installed there was hopelessly corrupt and fully intertwined with the American military-industrial complex that has been feeding at the trough of slush provided by the American Taxpayer for decades.

You can't occupy a country of that size with 2,500 troops.

How large was the ASF?

Wasn't the whole point that they "occupy" their own country?

We didn't succeed with a massive surge (didn't help that we told the enemy that we wouldn't be staying even as we surged), we didn't succeed when it was 20k, 10k, and it certainly wasn't going to succeed with just 2,500.

We're simply not in the 'occupying' business.

I go back to the argument that we could and should have accepted the Taliban's offer for an unconditional surrender some 18-19 years ago. We'd made our point. But instead we became occupiers. And worse, allied with a corrupt government.

Or, at a minimum after Bin Laden was put down.

I maintain that we've been succeeding with an ever smaller presence every year since 2015.

Dialing back to 2002-3, we hadn't decimated AQ yet & we didn't have a bead on OBL yet.

It's an interesting academic exercise, but it really doesn't matter anymore. We're out, for better or for worse.
What matters now is how many Americans, their Afghan family members & Afghan allies we can help get out.

I agree with your last paragraph. I'd also add that it will matter whether we're able to interdict terrorist threats successfully and whether Afghanistan can achieve even a modicum of a civil society that moves forward relative to the Taliban's prior reign of terror.

In the meantime, yes, getting more folks out safely is really, really important. So, too, is their welcomed integration into American society. There's some really ugly stuff out there right now...hopefully the military, diplomatic, and intelligence folks, including retired, who worked with them, will step up big time to make clear that they deserve that welcome.

[Brooklyn]

Victorious Taliban Says Defeat of U.S. Is a Lesson to the World


https://www.newsweek.com/victorious-tal ... ee359f6f08


The Taliban has hailed the American withdrawal from Afghanistan as a "lesson for other invaders" after the last U.S. military aircraft left the country, effectively ending two decades of war.

The Taliban celebrated at Kabul's airport on Tuesday with congratulatory messages and celebratory gunshots fired in the air, AFP reported. Newsweek previously broke the news that a U.S. Air Force C17 strategic transport aircraft left Afghanistan on Monday at 11:59 p.m. local time, close to President Joe Biden's August 31 deadline to end U.S. military presence in the country.

"Congratulations to Afghanistan," Taliban spokesperson Zabihullah Mujahid told reporters from the runway. "This victory belongs to us all."

While the Taliban's takeover was a "lesson for other invaders," Mujahid said, he also expressed a desire to improve ties with the U.S. and international community.

"We want to have good relations with the U.S. and the world," he said, according to AFP. "We welcome good diplomatic relations with them all."

...


Those right wing delusionals who continue to criticize Biden fail to understand that the USA never succeeded in winning over the majority of the people in Afghanistan. This is why they lost their war of imperialistic colonialism. Now let's have the right wing pay reparations while paying for the war they caused.

[MDlaxfan76]

But you ain't left wing, right?

No, all we really know is that the most violent in Afghanistan are now back in power.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/09/27/ri ... ghanistan/

They have an opening to achieving real legitimacy, let's see if they take it this go round.

[DMac]

Wow, go to the grocery store and run into an Army Captain, has nineteen years in (was a Master Sergeant before going the officer route), pretty hard core, an all about it Army boy (I'd want him on my team, sharp fella). Being my usual aszwhole self I said to him as we were passing in the aisle, "You, got the whole show under control, Captain?" I wasn't thinking Afghanistan when I said that, just making general conversation, but he sure was (I should have known better). Talk about a thoroughly disgusted and pizzed off boy...wow! His entire nineteen years we've been involved in that war, guy had done a couple of tours, pretty much 'nuff said there. Same ol' story, when you're personally involved it's a whole different ballgame. We can all sit and point fingers, pizz and moan, Monday morning quarterback and have all the answers but when you've been there, done that, actually seen it, felt it, and been a part of it, it has a whole different level of affect on you. Shared some similar experiences and witnessings as well as feeling of complete disgust with the guy. Wasn't what you'd call a nice chat but it was a good one, felt bad for the guy, he's hurting. GIs lied to, strung along, and kicked in the balls in the end yet again. Guy plans on doing another fifteen years, I want this guy in our Army, impressive young man.

[MDlaxfan76]

Wow, go to the grocery store and run into an Army Captain, has nineteen years in (was a Master Sergeant before going the officer route), pretty hard core, an all about it Army boy (I'd want him on my team, sharp fella). Being my usual aszwhole self I said to him as we were passing in the aisle, "You, got the whole show under control, Captain?" I wasn't thinking Afghanistan when I said that, just making general conversation, but he sure was (I should have known better). Talk about a thoroughly disgusted and pizzed off boy...wow! His entire nineteen years we've been involved in that war, guy had done a couple of tours, pretty much 'nuff said there. Same ol' story, when you're personally involved it's a whole different ballgame. We can all sit and point fingers, pizz and moan, Monday morning quarterback and have all the answers but when you've been there, done that, actually seen it, felt it, and been a part of it, it has a whole different level of affect on you. Shared some similar experiences and witnessings as well as feeling of complete disgust with the guy. Wasn't what you'd call a nice chat but it was a good one, felt bad for the guy, he's hurting. GIs lied to, strung along, and kicked in the balls in the end yet again. Guy plans on doing another fifteen years, I want this guy in our Army, impressive young man.

So, can you share more about what the Master Sergeant's opinions were, having been there?

Or is he still 'processing' what it all means, is simply (and understandably) emotional at this point?

And do I read this correctly that he's had two tours and is just 19?

[6x6]

Wow, go to the grocery store and run into an Army Captain, has nineteen years in (was a Master Sergeant before going the officer route), pretty hard core, an all about it Army boy (I'd want him on my team, sharp fella). Being my usual aszwhole self I said to him as we were passing in the aisle, "You, got the whole show under control, Captain?" I wasn't thinking Afghanistan when I said that, just making general conversation, but he sure was (I should have known better). Talk about a thoroughly disgusted and pizzed off boy...wow! His entire nineteen years we've been involved in that war, guy had done a couple of tours, pretty much 'nuff said there. Same ol' story, when you're personally involved it's a whole different ballgame. We can all sit and point fingers, pizz and moan, Monday morning quarterback and have all the answers but when you've been there, done that, actually seen it, felt it, and been a part of it, it has a whole different level of affect on you. Shared some similar experiences and witnessings as well as feeling of complete disgust with the guy. Wasn't what you'd call a nice chat but it was a good one, felt bad for the guy, he's hurting. GIs lied to, strung along, and kicked in the balls in the end yet again. Guy plans on doing another fifteen years, I want this guy in our Army, impressive young man.

So, can you share more about what the Master Sergeant's opinions were, having been there?

Or is he still 'processing' what it all means, is simply (and understandably) emotional at this point?

And do I read this correctly that he's had two tours and is just 19?

I read DMac as 19 years in the Army with two tours there. Master Sgt is an E-8 and it takes years just to get that far up the NCO ranks.

[DMac]

Of course you're correct, 6.
You mean the Captain's opinions, MDlax. No, you are not reading it correctly, he's been in the Army for nineteen years, started out as an enlisted man, reached the rank of Master Sgt. then got his commission and is now an officer (Capt). Undoubtedly went to college while he was in and did the necessary stuff to get his commission (he'd be higher ranking than Captain after nineteen years had he come in as an officer).
Didn't get into any specifics with him about his experiences, just more general conversation about having seen this movie before myself and how we don't learn from our mistakes and the general feeling of disgust in yet again being on the "losing" team. Yes, he's pizzed, maybe very frustrated and hugely disappointed in the way we go about war anymore.

[dislaxxic]

Wow, go to the grocery store and run into an Army Captain, has nineteen years in (was a Master Sergeant before going the officer route), pretty hard core, an all about it Army boy (I'd want him on my team, sharp fella). Being my usual aszwhole self I said to him as we were passing in the aisle, "You, got the whole show under control, Captain?" I wasn't thinking Afghanistan when I said that, just making general conversation, but he sure was (I should have known better). Talk about a thoroughly disgusted and pizzed off boy...wow! His entire nineteen years we've been involved in that war, guy had done a couple of tours, pretty much 'nuff said there. Same ol' story, when you're personally involved it's a whole different ballgame. We can all sit and point fingers, pizz and moan, Monday morning quarterback and have all the answers but when you've been there, done that, actually seen it, felt it, and been a part of it, it has a whole different level of affect on you. Shared some similar experiences and witnessings as well as feeling of complete disgust with the guy. Wasn't what you'd call a nice chat but it was a good one, felt bad for the guy, he's hurting. GIs lied to, strung along, and kicked in the balls in the end yet again. Guy plans on doing another fifteen years, I want this guy in our Army, impressive young man.

"...feeling of complete disgust with the guy..."

What guy is he completely disgusted with?

..

[jhu72]

Miley just said in press conference that he could see us cooperating in the future with the Taliban.

[jhu72]

Wow, go to the grocery store and run into an Army Captain, has nineteen years in (was a Master Sergeant before going the officer route), pretty hard core, an all about it Army boy (I'd want him on my team, sharp fella). Being my usual aszwhole self I said to him as we were passing in the aisle, "You, got the whole show under control, Captain?" I wasn't thinking Afghanistan when I said that, just making general conversation, but he sure was (I should have known better). Talk about a thoroughly disgusted and pizzed off boy...wow! His entire nineteen years we've been involved in that war, guy had done a couple of tours, pretty much 'nuff said there. Same ol' story, when you're personally involved it's a whole different ballgame. We can all sit and point fingers, pizz and moan, Monday morning quarterback and have all the answers but when you've been there, done that, actually seen it, felt it, and been a part of it, it has a whole different level of affect on you. Shared some similar experiences and witnessings as well as feeling of complete disgust with the guy. Wasn't what you'd call a nice chat but it was a good one, felt bad for the guy, he's hurting. GIs lied to, strung along, and kicked in the balls in the end yet again. Guy plans on doing another fifteen years, I want this guy in our Army, impressive young man.

"...feeling of complete disgust with the guy..."

What guy is he completely disgusted with?

..

... think he means disgusted with the situation overall.

[Brooklyn]

But you ain't left wing, right?

No, all we really know is that the most violent in Afghanistan are now back in power.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/09/27/ri ... ghanistan/

They have an opening to achieving real legitimacy, let's see if they take it this go round.

As a member of the "far, far" right, you hate it when the government tells you what to do. I can well imagine how outraged you would find it if a puppet government imposed by an invader told you what to do as well. Rather than succumb to right wing propaganda pieces like that you need to think for yourself. That rag which you just quoted does not even begin to acknowledge the truth that at no point did the Afghans consent to any invasion or to the imposition of a puppet regime whose lap dog leaders kissed up the butts of colonialist Bush or any one else in the White Wash House. For several weeks now we have all seen how Afghans stepped aside rather than take up arms against Talibani who walked into every provincial capitol and proclaimed themselves the rightful leaders. They did not usurp anything. They simply took what was theirs from the beginning because the majority of the Afghans never bought into the Western "crusade" against them. That isn't a "left" outlook. Just the truth whether you choose to believe it or not.

[dislaxxic]

Taking Stock Of The Great and Cowardly Press Freakout Of August 2021

So the government fell – clearly quicker than the White House or the Pentagon anticipated. As things spun out of control in the 2nd week of August, the US redeployed first a thousand and eventually more than six thousand troops to Kabul. As it unfolded this was portrayed as evidence of disorganization and failed planning. You just pulled out! Now you’re going back in! What the heck!?!?! In fact, it was what was required to manage the evacuation that unfolded over the following two weeks, a deployment in sufficient force to allow the US to manage a rushed but orderly evacuation on its own terms. Thirteen Americans troops were killed in that effort. But given the vulnerability they were exposed to – essentially searching and vetting Afghan civilians at close quarters in a situation in which literally anyone could approach the US checkpoints – the risk to those Marines at the gates was vast.

So I would ask again, what exactly was the great failure of execution? There have been a few criticisms on operational grounds. But they seem weak at best. One we’ve heard a lot is that the US should have held Bagram Airport rather than the civilian airport in Kabul. I’m not a military planner. But on its face if the main mission is evacuation and the people are in Kabul it seems clear that the airport near the people is the better option. Otherwise, you’re in a sort of Mad Max type situation managing highly vulnerable convoys on a forty mile drive from Kabul to the heavily defended military airbase. I’ll leave that question to others. But again, what was the failure of execution? It really seems that the “failure,” the “there had to be a better way” argument, is that the government fell. Is that a failure of execution? Not really. It was an inherent risk of withdrawal. Indeed, by any candid evaluation it was an inevitable result of withdrawal. The question was just how long it would take to happen. It happened faster than anyone seems to have anticipated. And the US reacted quickly with a contingency plan to manage an evacuation which was actually quite successful.

Let us remember that two weekends ago a crush of prominent commentators and reporters were stating as fact that the White House had been caught flatfooted and abandoned everyone who had worked for the US during its war in Afghanistan. They declared the evacuation a catastrophic failure and shameful betrayal when it was actually only starting and then in many cases took credit for the evacuation after it happened, on the premise that it was only their cries of betrayal that made it happen. This is a bracingly self-serving and sloppy logic. One of the worst offenders on this front, ABC’s Martha Raddatz, was forced to move the goalposts yet again yesterday: now judging the evacuation a “success,” she claimed Biden was “conflating the withdrawal with the evacuation … they did not realize the Taliban would take over so quickly.”

Read the whole piece...

..

[DMac]

Wow, go to the grocery store and run into an Army Captain, has nineteen years in (was a Master Sergeant before going the officer route), pretty hard core, an all about it Army boy (I'd want him on my team, sharp fella). Being my usual aszwhole self I said to him as we were passing in the aisle, "You, got the whole show under control, Captain?" I wasn't thinking Afghanistan when I said that, just making general conversation, but he sure was (I should have known better). Talk about a thoroughly disgusted and pizzed off boy...wow! His entire nineteen years we've been involved in that war, guy had done a couple of tours, pretty much 'nuff said there. Same ol' story, when you're personally involved it's a whole different ballgame. We can all sit and point fingers, pizz and moan, Monday morning quarterback and have all the answers but when you've been there, done that, actually seen it, felt it, and been a part of it, it has a whole different level of affect on you. Shared some similar experiences and witnessings as well as feeling of complete disgust with the guy. Wasn't what you'd call a nice chat but it was a good one, felt bad for the guy, he's hurting. GIs lied to, strung along, and kicked in the balls in the end yet again. Guy plans on doing another fifteen years, I want this guy in our Army, impressive young man.

"...feeling of complete disgust with the guy..."

What guy is he completely disgusted with?

..

... think he means disgusted with the situation overall.

Yes, thank you.
Geezuz, didn't realize my post was so confusing.

[Brooklyn]

dislaxxic,

"...feeling of complete disgust with the guy..."

What guy is he completely disgusted with?

jhu72,

... think he means disgusted with the situation overall.

EVERYONE should be disgusted. Always bear in mind that at no point did our Founding Fathers ever contemplate the stupid idea of continuous foreign intervention in perpetual wars and the endless wastage of our resources in international nation building. Yes, I realize that to the unpatriotic and mindless politically correct pro war crowd such an idea is unfathomable. But it is the truth.

The vast majority of Founding Fathers, and a majority of the most influential Founding Fathers, supported the militia as the primary means of national defense. This majority allowed for the creation of a standing army for emergency situations, but did not intend for it to replace the militia as the primary means of defense. They believed the United States should remain neutral in foreign wars and should use the militia and army for defensive purposes only. They would not support current U.S. foreign policy.


https://www.houseofpolitics.com/threads ... gers.2780/



The soldier mentioned in those earlier posts needs to realize that his sacrifices were not in the interest of patriotism. They were made to secure endless profits for greedy corporate welfare queens and selfish power hungry politicians. He needs to direct his disgust towards them and so should everyone else here.

[kramerica.inc]

The soldier mentioned in those earlier posts needs to realize that his sacrifices were not in the interest of patriotism. They were made to secure endless profits for greedy corporate welfare queens and selfish power hungry politicians. He needs to direct his disgust towards them and so should everyone else here.

You should tell the next Vet you see your thoughts on his service.

[DMac]

+1, kram.
You're completely missing the point and yet again exposing what a cesspool social media is, Brook.
The point is the empty feeling one has who is personally involved is a whole lot different than those
who are not. Like the people who would say something like you just did. Really sorry I posted my
experience with the guy at this point.

[PizzaSnake]

Wow, go to the grocery store and run into an Army Captain, has nineteen years in (was a Master Sergeant before going the officer route), pretty hard core, an all about it Army boy (I'd want him on my team, sharp fella). Being my usual aszwhole self I said to him as we were passing in the aisle, "You, got the whole show under control, Captain?" I wasn't thinking Afghanistan when I said that, just making general conversation, but he sure was (I should have known better). Talk about a thoroughly disgusted and pizzed off boy...wow! His entire nineteen years we've been involved in that war, guy had done a couple of tours, pretty much 'nuff said there. Same ol' story, when you're personally involved it's a whole different ballgame. We can all sit and point fingers, pizz and moan, Monday morning quarterback and have all the answers but when you've been there, done that, actually seen it, felt it, and been a part of it, it has a whole different level of affect on you. Shared some similar experiences and witnessings as well as feeling of complete disgust with the guy. Wasn't what you'd call a nice chat but it was a good one, felt bad for the guy, he's hurting. GIs lied to, strung along, and kicked in the balls in the end yet again. Guy plans on doing another fifteen years, I want this guy in our Army, impressive young man.

"...feeling of complete disgust with the guy..."

What guy is he completely disgusted with?

..

... think he means disgusted with the situation overall.

Yes, thank you.
Geezuz, didn't realize my post was so confusing.

Perhaps he's upset since the actual prosecution of the "war" in Afghanistan seemed to fly in the face of much of the material he had been indoctrinated with? To wit, Clausewitz:

"The talent of the strategist is to identify the decisive point and to concentrate everything on it, removing forces from secondary fronts and ignoring lesser objectives." -- Clausewitz

"Tactics are the use of armed forces in a particular battle, while strategy is the doctrine of the use of individual battles for the purposes of war."
- Clausewitz

"Simplicity in planning fosters energy in execution. Strong determination in carrying through a simple idea is the surest route to success. The winning simplicity we seek, the simplicity of genius, is the result of intense mental engagement." -- Clausewitz

Intense mental engagement? Hmm, what could go wrong there during a 20 years effort?

"Some generals consider only unilateral action, whereas war consists of a continuous interaction of opposites … no strategy ever survives the first engagement with the enemy." - Clausewitz

"everyone has a plan until I punch them in the face." -- Mike Tyson

"War is a trial of moral and physical forces by means of the latter. . . In the last analysis it is at moral, not physical strength that all military action is directed … Moral factors, then, are the ultimate determinants in war." --Clausewitz

"We need a philosophy of strategy that contains the seeds of its constant rejuvenation — a way to chart strategy in an unstable environment." -Clausewitz

So how many of these dictums were violated over the course of the twenty-odd years we spent in Afghanistan?

[youthathletics]

+1, kram.
You're completely missing the point and yet again exposing what a cesspool social media is, Brook.
The point is the empty feeling one has who is personally involved is a whole lot different than those
who are not. Like the people who would say something like you just did. Really sorry I posted my
experience with the guy at this point.

consider the poster dmac...your posts matter, heavily I might add.

[Brooklyn]

The soldier mentioned in those earlier posts needs to realize that his sacrifices were not in the interest of patriotism. They were made to secure endless profits for greedy corporate welfare queens and selfish power hungry politicians. He needs to direct his disgust towards them and so should everyone else here.

You should tell the next Vet you see your thoughts on his service.

DMac,

+1, kram.
You're completely missing the point and yet again exposing what a cesspool social media is, Brook.
The point is the empty feeling one has who is personally involved is a whole lot different than those
who are not. Like the people who would say something like you just did. Really sorry I posted my
experience with the guy at this point.

I'm mentioned on the old LP forum that I've done volunteer work with returning vets (including disabled and homeless) who express the same things. In fact just a couple of weeks ago I spoke with a homeless dude at a bus stop who also said the same. May not be what the right wing views as fashionable and politically correct. But it's just the truth.

[kramerica.inc]

+1, kram.
You're completely missing the point and yet again exposing what a cesspool social media is, Brook.
The point is the empty feeling one has who is personally involved is a whole lot different than those
who are not. Like the people who would say something like you just did. Really sorry I posted my
experience with the guy at this point.

consider the poster dmac...your posts matter, heavily I might add.

I posted a video a few days ago exploring everyday life in Afghanistan.
I personally didn't see the need for the US to be involved in the country's affairs. But the video made it extremely evident that even if the overall US military mission of defeating the taliban was a flop, the soldiers work, and our presence WAS a good thing to many, many people there.

If you watch the video you'll see, quite plainly- Our soldiers gave the Afghanis a taste of freedom in things like:
Living without fear of persecution, being able to live life or practice their religion their own way, freedom to vote, freedom to elect women to leadership. All of these things and these IDEAS of freedom were beneficial to many, many people- for 2 decades. That's not insignificant. Those seeds will grow and hopefully take root for future generations there. We shall see.