Taliban reclaims Afghanistan

[Kismet]

America’s War in Afghanistan Is Over but Our Big Lies About It Live On

An opinion piece in the Daily Beast

It’s important to establish these details, because these are the things people overlook when describing what has become one of the most popular criticisms of Biden’s withdrawal from Afghanistan: that he allowed the military to “abandon” BAF, or that it would have been somehow more possible or feasible to carry out a deliberate evacuation from BAF than from Hamid Karzai International Airport. This is false. The number of people required to safely secure BAF and its eight-mile perimeter in 2021 would have required an entirely new troop surge numbering in the thousands. When one considers the logistics involved, and the numbers of soldiers, Marines, and airmen, the number could have easily ballooned far greater than the number readily available for the task.

The collapse of Afghanistan demonstrated that the country I imagined when I was deployed here was also a lie, just another storyline.
It also would have required taking Afghan National Security Forces (ANSF) to create an outer perimeter of security. Several months ago, it would have been unimaginable to carry out a unilateral operation. These choices would have affected which ANSF units were available to provide security elsewhere. And one must also consider in retrospect that the ANSF providing security would have also probably required support from the American base logistics system.

The collapse of Afghanistan demonstrated that the country I imagined when I was deployed here was also a lie, just another storyline. It has been extraordinary to watch how in the intervening weeks, rather than facing up to the delusion that we entertained for 20 years, nearly everyone with a hand in this mess has done everything they could to shift the blame elsewhere. Certainly, some leaders were capable of and interested in considering the significance of Afghanistan’s near-instantaneous collapse. Admiral Mike Mullen, for example, didn’t shy away from reality. But the former chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff didn’t have much company. Most of the other people who led the war and promoted it have indulged in rationalizing, comforting counterfactuals and even outright lies.

That's the same tired, worn out excuse for all options in Afghanistan, Iraq, or Syria -- it would have required at least 100,000 troops.

We didn't need to retake Bagram. We needed to just not leave. Had we stayed, the ASF would have stayed with us.

The ASF could have fallen back & concentrated their ground & air forces there, if necessary. If Kabul needed to be evacuated, our remaining embassy staff could have evacuated to or through Bagram. If necessary the Ghani govt could have evacuated there. Bagram & 3 other air bases (Mazir-I-Sharif, Shindand & Herat) could have been held by ASF, US & NATO forces, turned over last, & not abandoned. The ASF & the Ghani govt could have defended the northern & western provinces, temporarily ceding the Pashtun regions to the Taliban, until those populations rejected their harsh rule & a coalition govt could be negotiated.

Oversimplification and wishful thinking 101. SOP for you.

[jhu72]

... more BS from the forever warriors, the claim that at least our presence denied terrorists the use of Afghanistan for 20 years. Sorry, ISIS-K has been terrorizing Afghanistan since at least 2015. They live in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

[cradleandshoot]

... more BS from the forever warriors, the claim that at least our presence denied terrorists the use of Afghanistan for 20 years. Sorry, ISIS-K has been terrorizing Afghanistan since at least 2015. They live in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

You must be talking about the Kilo variant of the Isis virus. The only shot that eradicates that virus is given between the eyeballs from a high powered rifle. The effective rate when used is 100 percent.

[Brooklyn]

... more BS from the forever warriors, the claim that at least our presence denied terrorists the use of Afghanistan for 20 years. Sorry, ISIS-K has been terrorizing Afghanistan since at least 2015. They live in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The delusional right wing applauded the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan because they knew it would eliminate the biggest enemies of al-Qaeda and the other groups that would eventually create ISIS. Those enemies being Saddam Hussein and the Taliban. By promoting those imperialist wars it would insure that they would have billions in war profits which is what they have been after all along. No surprise as to why they want more war. More war = more war profits.

NONE DARE CALL IT TREASON.

[old salt]

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/1 ... ban-505165
Support for the American military withdrawal from Afghanistan dropped 20 percentage points from April to August as the Taliban takeover of the country accelerated,
38 percent said the U.S. should still withdraw if the Taliban regains control of most of Afghanistan. Forty-five percent of voters said the U.S. should probably or definitely not withdraw, a larger share than those who generally opposed the decision to withdraw.
...& that was before the fall of Kabul, the evac debacle & the KIA's @ HKIA.

The American public has been lied to about this "war", this occupation, for 20 years, their opinions about it totally misinformed. The training of an Afghan force had been underway for 10 years at least. THAT'S the major failure here, the failure of the trainers and facilitators that threw money at the issue for years without a CLUE about the dynamics, the culture, of the country. The "government" installed there was hopelessly corrupt and fully intertwined with the American military-industrial complex that has been feeding at the trough of slush provided by the American Taxpayer for decades.

You can't occupy a country of that size with 2,500 troops.

[old salt]

America’s War in Afghanistan Is Over but Our Big Lies About It Live On

An opinion piece in the Daily Beast

That's the same tired, worn out excuse for all options in Afghanistan, Iraq, or Syria -- it would have required at least 100,000 troops.

We didn't need to retake Bagram. We needed to just not leave. Had we stayed, the ASF would have stayed with us.

The ASF could have fallen back & concentrated their ground & air forces there, if necessary. If Kabul needed to be evacuated, our remaining embassy staff could have evacuated to or through Bagram. If necessary the Ghani govt could have evacuated there. Bagram & 3 other air bases (Mazir-I-Sharif, Shindand & Herat) could have been held by ASF, US & NATO forces, turned over last, & not abandoned. The ASF & the Ghani govt could have defended the northern & western provinces, temporarily ceding the Pashtun regions to the Taliban, until those populations rejected their harsh rule & a coalition govt could be negotiated.

Oversimplification and wishful thinking 101. SOP for you.

Consider the timeline :

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/1 ... -provinces

The Taliban did not start taking territory until after Biden announced our full departure date. Rather than announcing a date certain, we could have continued negotiating in Doha, dragged Ghani to the table & made our withdrawal conditions based, as Pompeo maintains Trump would have done, while secretly planning (& consulting with NATO allies) about a phased withdrawal after the fighting season, to be completed by late winter, retaining the military bases until the very end, if the ASF was self-sufficient by then. Our NATO allies indicated they were willing to stay as long as we did. That would have provided ample time for US citizens, green card holders, SIV's, other Afghan allies, & NGO workers to quietly trickle out via the multiple intl airports & border crossings. The departure timeline was driven by a political stunt of being out by 9-11-21.

[Brooklyn]

You can't occupy a country of that size with 2,500 troops.

Occupation of a foreign land constitutes imperialistic colonialism. There are consequences for such political crimes. Napoleon, the Nazis, Imperial Japan, and now the USA know what those consequences are.

[Brooklyn]

Salty,

... maintains Trump would have done ...

See my previous link to tRump's declaration that Biden's time line wasn't going fast enough and that he would have accelerated it.

[jhu72]

90 retired Generals and Admirals call for Milley and Austin to resign immediately

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... rawal.html

Those generals and admirals subscribed to the BIG LIE. Conspiracy theorists.

[MDlaxfan76]

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/1 ... ban-505165
Support for the American military withdrawal from Afghanistan dropped 20 percentage points from April to August as the Taliban takeover of the country accelerated,
38 percent said the U.S. should still withdraw if the Taliban regains control of most of Afghanistan. Forty-five percent of voters said the U.S. should probably or definitely not withdraw, a larger share than those who generally opposed the decision to withdraw.
...& that was before the fall of Kabul, the evac debacle & the KIA's @ HKIA.

The American public has been lied to about this "war", this occupation, for 20 years, their opinions about it totally misinformed. The training of an Afghan force had been underway for 10 years at least. THAT'S the major failure here, the failure of the trainers and facilitators that threw money at the issue for years without a CLUE about the dynamics, the culture, of the country. The "government" installed there was hopelessly corrupt and fully intertwined with the American military-industrial complex that has been feeding at the trough of slush provided by the American Taxpayer for decades.

You can't occupy a country of that size with 2,500 troops.

How large was the ASF?

Wasn't the whole point that they "occupy" their own country?

We didn't succeed with a massive surge (didn't help that we told the enemy that we wouldn't be staying even as we surged), we didn't succeed when it was 20k, 10k, and it certainly wasn't going to succeed with just 2,500.

We're simply not in the 'occupying' business.

I go back to the argument that we could and should have accepted the Taliban's offer for an unconditional surrender some 18-19 years ago. We'd made our point. But instead we became occupiers. And worse, allied with a corrupt government.

Or, at a minimum after Bin Laden was put down.

[MDlaxfan76]

90 retired Generals and Admirals call for Milley and Austin to resign immediately

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... rawal.html

Those generals and admirals subscribed to the BIG LIE. Conspiracy theorists.

Disgusting.

[cradleandshoot]

[quote=MDlaxfan76 post_id=290066 time=1630432101 user_id=313]
[quote="old salt" post_id=290054 time=1630427270 user_id=262]
[quote=dislaxxic post_id=290029 time=1630420765 user_id=258]
[quote="old salt" post_id=290017 time=1630419321 user_id=262]https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/1 ... ban-505165
[i]Support for the American military withdrawal from Afghanistan dropped 20 percentage points from April to August as the Taliban takeover of the country accelerated,
38 percent said the U.S. should still withdraw if the Taliban regains control of most of Afghanistan. Forty-five percent of voters said the U.S. should probably or definitely not withdraw, a larger share than those who generally opposed the decision to withdraw.[/i]
...& that was before the fall of Kabul, the evac debacle & the KIA's @ HKIA.
[/quote]

The American public has been lied to about this "war", this occupation, for 20 years, their opinions about it totally misinformed. The training of an Afghan force had been underway for 10 years at least. THAT'S the major failure here, the failure of the trainers and facilitators that threw money at the issue for years without a CLUE about the dynamics, the culture, of the country. The "government" installed there was hopelessly corrupt and fully intertwined with the American military-industrial complex that has been feeding at the trough of slush provided by the American Taxpayer for decades.
[/quote]You can't occupy a country of that size with 2,500 troops.
[/quote]

How large was the ASF?

Wasn't the whole point that they "occupy" their own country?

We didn't succeed with a massive surge (didn't help that we told the enemy that we wouldn't be staying even as we surged), we didn't succeed when it was 20k, 10k, and it certainly wasn't going to succeed with just 2,500.

We're simply not in the 'occupying' business.

I go back to the argument that we could and should have accepted the Taliban's offer for an unconditional surrender some 18-19 years ago. We'd made our point. But instead we became occupiers. And worse, allied with a corrupt government.

Or, at a minimum after Bin Laden was put down.
[/quote]

How come GWB didn't listen to your wisdom 20 years ago? It is always easy for you Monday morning QBs to tell us all where all the mistakes were made on Sunday while the game was being played. Good analysis of the game coach MD. You have some wisdom for Scott Norwood so his FG doesn't go wide right?

[CU88]

We all know who the losers & suckers are here, and that their parents are just like them...

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pent ... s-suckers/

The smart and brave go golfing at their resort, instead of to Dover AFB; even if they have bone spurs.

[MDlaxfan76]

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/1 ... ban-505165
Support for the American military withdrawal from Afghanistan dropped 20 percentage points from April to August as the Taliban takeover of the country accelerated,
38 percent said the U.S. should still withdraw if the Taliban regains control of most of Afghanistan. Forty-five percent of voters said the U.S. should probably or definitely not withdraw, a larger share than those who generally opposed the decision to withdraw.
...& that was before the fall of Kabul, the evac debacle & the KIA's @ HKIA.

The American public has been lied to about this "war", this occupation, for 20 years, their opinions about it totally misinformed. The training of an Afghan force had been underway for 10 years at least. THAT'S the major failure here, the failure of the trainers and facilitators that threw money at the issue for years without a CLUE about the dynamics, the culture, of the country. The "government" installed there was hopelessly corrupt and fully intertwined with the American military-industrial complex that has been feeding at the trough of slush provided by the American Taxpayer for decades.

You can't occupy a country of that size with 2,500 troops.

How large was the ASF?

Wasn't the whole point that they "occupy" their own country?

We didn't succeed with a massive surge (didn't help that we told the enemy that we wouldn't be staying even as we surged), we didn't succeed when it was 20k, 10k, and it certainly wasn't going to succeed with just 2,500.

We're simply not in the 'occupying' business.

I go back to the argument that we could and should have accepted the Taliban's offer for an unconditional surrender some 18-19 years ago. We'd made our point. But instead we became occupiers. And worse, allied with a corrupt government.

Or, at a minimum after Bin Laden was put down.

How come GWB didn't listen to your wisdom 20 years ago? It is always easy for you Monday morning QBs to tell us all where all the mistakes were made on Sunday while the game was being played. Good analysis of the game coach MD. You have some wisdom for Scott Norwood so his FG doesn't go wide right?

So, no analysis should be done based on what we've learned since? I mean, who cares, really, right?

I was in favor of striking in Afghanistan; I didn't know enough to question the choices made whether to withdraw or stay in 2002 and 2003 and thereon. I was wrong to believe that there were WMD's in Iraq as we were told was likely, so wrong to support that move.

But when there's more information, indeed with the benefit of hindsight, it's perfectly legitimate to analyze what decisions would have most likely had better outcomes.

That doesn't I mean that I condemn Bush for making these mistakes, as I believe his decisions were made with good conscience and intent (others disagree). But they turned out to have been tragically wrong. I'd say much the same for Obama's, in good conscience and intent, albeit sometimes in error. (I do think that some of Trump's decisions were made not in good conscience or competence, but that's a separate matter.)

so, can we learn anything from that experience?

[CU88]

"This is horrifying. And wrong. American doesn't leave Americans behind" - Ted Cruz


Who write this stuff for the r's?

[tech37]

90 retired Generals and Admirals call for Milley and Austin to resign immediately

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... rawal.html

Those generals and admirals subscribed to the BIG LIE. Conspiracy theorists.

Yeah, so what? What does their opinion re the Afghan withdrawal (opinions based on military experience) have to do with any of their other opinions? There's no "conspiracy" as to how badly Biden and his people botched things. That is crystal clear to anyone who isn't a hyper-partisan such as yourself, and I would bet, crystal clear to the majority of the country.

[seacoaster]

90 retired Generals and Admirals call for Milley and Austin to resign immediately

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... rawal.html

Those generals and admirals subscribed to the BIG LIE. Conspiracy theorists.

Yeah, so what? What does their opinion re the Afghan withdrawal (opinions based on military experience) have to do with any of their other opinions? There's no "conspiracy" as to how badly Biden and his people botched things. That is crystal clear to anyone who isn't a hyper-partisan such as yourself, and I would bet, crystal clear to the majority of the country.

“Yeah, so what?” That’s funny.

[MDlaxfan76]

90 retired Generals and Admirals call for Milley and Austin to resign immediately

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... rawal.html

Those generals and admirals subscribed to the BIG LIE. Conspiracy theorists.

Yeah, so what? What does their opinion re the Afghan withdrawal (opinions based on military experience) have to do with any of their other opinions? There's no "conspiracy" as to how badly Biden and his people botched things. That is crystal clear to anyone who isn't a hyper-partisan such as yourself, and I would bet, crystal clear to the majority of the country.

“Yeah, so what?” That’s funny.

In the fever swamp mind, everything's independent, and it's all a massive f-up by the left, no matter what.

tech, these particular a-holes are the ones delusionally partisan, their judgment on ANY topic becomes enormously suspect given their endorsement of the Big Lie. They're idiotic and quite delusional dinosaurs.

Notwithstanding that reality, there's plenty to critique on how the withdrawal was executed as well as much to applaud. Lots to discuss and will give historians plenty to chew on for years to come. But these idiots' opinions won't factor in. Others' will though. And many will be critical, undoubtedly.

But when we look at what the various retired military folks have to say, we need to parse out who is trying to protect their personal 'legacy' and who is willing to be self-critical. the latter will have the most credibility, not the former...for instance Adm Mullen's views will have some added credibility because of his self-critique.

[tech37]

90 retired Generals and Admirals call for Milley and Austin to resign immediately

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... rawal.html

Those generals and admirals subscribed to the BIG LIE. Conspiracy theorists.

Yeah, so what? What does their opinion re the Afghan withdrawal (opinions based on military experience) have to do with any of their other opinions? There's no "conspiracy" as to how badly Biden and his people botched things. That is crystal clear to anyone who isn't a hyper-partisan such as yourself, and I would bet, crystal clear to the majority of the country.

“Yeah, so what?” That’s funny.

In the fever swamp mind, everything's independent, and it's all a massive f-up by the left, no matter what.

tech, these particular a-holes are the ones delusionally partisan, their judgment on ANY topic becomes enormously suspect given their endorsement of the Big Lie. They're idiotic and quite delusional dinosaurs.

Notwithstanding that reality, there's plenty to critique on how the withdrawal was executed as well as much to applaud. Lots to discuss and will give historians plenty to chew on for years to come. But these idiots' opinions won't factor in. Others' will though. And many will be critical, undoubtedly.

But when we look at what the various retired military folks have to say, we need to parse out who is trying to protect their personal 'legacy' and who is willing to be self-critical. the latter will have the most credibility, not the former...for instance Adm Mullen's views will have some added credibility because of his self-critique.

Oh what I would pay to see you call one of these people "a-hole" to their face...

[youthathletics]

90 retired Generals and Admirals call for Milley and Austin to resign immediately

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... rawal.html

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/y ... ommission/

Clearly there is some there...there. MIght it be that these military folks are doing what they promised when they swore in.

What's that,our welfare NAVY focusing on naming our welfare FLEET after some politically correct nonsense......meanwhile our ships captians have zero clue of what magnetic derivation is.......the gps tells all

No, to serve and protect...not to lie and go crazy covering $hitt up.