Sports Specialization

[Typical Lax Dad]

impossible to know the landscape down the line.

had lacrosse continued its participation rate increases, there'd be a greater likelihood of more schools adopting in division 1. that growth has stalled.

covid has thrown at least a temporary wrench into expanding departments. and maybe contributed to a semi-permanent one.

continue to believe any potential p5 expansion comes down to an ad's want to. that's not hard and fast, as an ad may "want to", but is constrained any number of ways at a given time. but you need that first. those are your candidates. not in rando media quotes, but real want to.

if and when ath dept revenue growth (and lax participation growth) kicks back in, we may see some further adoption. is a ways off, it seems.

Sounds about right. I’m still hard pressed to believe many would’ve believed Richmond would drop soccer to add lacrosse a year before it happened if you had projected it would occur.

what us lacrosse didn't seem to consider is that growth for decades was fueled by grass roots stuff.

their end game was right there in front of them. but by hanging their hat on club/elite, they're now facing what every other sport is. flat to declining. and it was easy to see coming.

and a good chunk of their high profile targets... big university ath depts .... goes away, as lax isn't big enough.

Vultures have contributed to declines in many sports. I am convinced that the worst thing to happen to soccer in this country was the emergence of Premier/Club soccer over a town community based model.

[Farfromgeneva]

impossible to know the landscape down the line.

had lacrosse continued its participation rate increases, there'd be a greater likelihood of more schools adopting in division 1. that growth has stalled.

covid has thrown at least a temporary wrench into expanding departments. and maybe contributed to a semi-permanent one.

continue to believe any potential p5 expansion comes down to an ad's want to. that's not hard and fast, as an ad may "want to", but is constrained any number of ways at a given time. but you need that first. those are your candidates. not in rando media quotes, but real want to.

if and when ath dept revenue growth (and lax participation growth) kicks back in, we may see some further adoption. is a ways off, it seems.

Sounds about right. I’m still hard pressed to believe many would’ve believed Richmond would drop soccer to add lacrosse a year before it happened if you had projected it would occur.

what us lacrosse didn't seem to consider is that growth for decades was fueled by grass roots stuff.

their end game was right there in front of them. but by hanging their hat on club/elite, they're now facing what every other sport is. flat to declining. and it was easy to see coming.

and a good chunk of their high profile targets... big university ath depts .... goes away, as lax isn't big enough.

Vultures have contributed to declines in many sports. I am convinced that the worst thing to happen to soccer in this country was the emergence of Premier/Club soccer over a town community based model.

My neighborhood is the only one I can think of inside the city of Atlanta that it would be common to see a regular porch party at. So I would posit the question: what community? (These days)

[wgdsr]

impossible to know the landscape down the line.

had lacrosse continued its participation rate increases, there'd be a greater likelihood of more schools adopting in division 1. that growth has stalled.

covid has thrown at least a temporary wrench into expanding departments. and maybe contributed to a semi-permanent one.

continue to believe any potential p5 expansion comes down to an ad's want to. that's not hard and fast, as an ad may "want to", but is constrained any number of ways at a given time. but you need that first. those are your candidates. not in rando media quotes, but real want to.

if and when ath dept revenue growth (and lax participation growth) kicks back in, we may see some further adoption. is a ways off, it seems.

Sounds about right. I’m still hard pressed to believe many would’ve believed Richmond would drop soccer to add lacrosse a year before it happened if you had projected it would occur.

what us lacrosse didn't seem to consider is that growth for decades was fueled by grass roots stuff.

their end game was right there in front of them. but by hanging their hat on club/elite, they're now facing what every other sport is. flat to declining. and it was easy to see coming.

and a good chunk of their high profile targets... big university ath depts .... goes away, as lax isn't big enough.

Vultures have contributed to declines in many sports. I am convinced that the worst thing to happen to soccer in this country was the emergence of Premier/Club soccer over a town community based model.

and us lax thought that was a great model:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/191 ... ince-2006/
i'd like to see the numbers for soccer from '80 - '06.

[Typical Lax Dad]

impossible to know the landscape down the line.

had lacrosse continued its participation rate increases, there'd be a greater likelihood of more schools adopting in division 1. that growth has stalled.

covid has thrown at least a temporary wrench into expanding departments. and maybe contributed to a semi-permanent one.

continue to believe any potential p5 expansion comes down to an ad's want to. that's not hard and fast, as an ad may "want to", but is constrained any number of ways at a given time. but you need that first. those are your candidates. not in rando media quotes, but real want to.

if and when ath dept revenue growth (and lax participation growth) kicks back in, we may see some further adoption. is a ways off, it seems.

Sounds about right. I’m still hard pressed to believe many would’ve believed Richmond would drop soccer to add lacrosse a year before it happened if you had projected it would occur.

what us lacrosse didn't seem to consider is that growth for decades was fueled by grass roots stuff.

their end game was right there in front of them. but by hanging their hat on club/elite, they're now facing what every other sport is. flat to declining. and it was easy to see coming.

and a good chunk of their high profile targets... big university ath depts .... goes away, as lax isn't big enough.

Vultures have contributed to declines in many sports. I am convinced that the worst thing to happen to soccer in this country was the emergence of Premier/Club soccer over a town community based model.

and us lax thought that was a great model:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/191 ... ince-2006/
i'd like to see the numbers for soccer from '80 - '06.

I would too. Here is another article:

https://ussoccerfoundation.org/blog/aft ... good-news/

We have had a talent drain because the time/money and commitment has increased at younger ages. We are missing those 11 year old athletes that quit because the talented players drop town soccer for club leaving really good players not ready to commit behind. The competition drops and those players find something else. Give them a couple more years and many may select soccer. We are artificially creating a funnel which isn’t always based on talent and ability. That funnel works in other countries because there aren’t as many sport options for kids.

[wgdsr]

impossible to know the landscape down the line.

had lacrosse continued its participation rate increases, there'd be a greater likelihood of more schools adopting in division 1. that growth has stalled.

covid has thrown at least a temporary wrench into expanding departments. and maybe contributed to a semi-permanent one.

continue to believe any potential p5 expansion comes down to an ad's want to. that's not hard and fast, as an ad may "want to", but is constrained any number of ways at a given time. but you need that first. those are your candidates. not in rando media quotes, but real want to.

if and when ath dept revenue growth (and lax participation growth) kicks back in, we may see some further adoption. is a ways off, it seems.

Sounds about right. I’m still hard pressed to believe many would’ve believed Richmond would drop soccer to add lacrosse a year before it happened if you had projected it would occur.

what us lacrosse didn't seem to consider is that growth for decades was fueled by grass roots stuff.

their end game was right there in front of them. but by hanging their hat on club/elite, they're now facing what every other sport is. flat to declining. and it was easy to see coming.

and a good chunk of their high profile targets... big university ath depts .... goes away, as lax isn't big enough.

Vultures have contributed to declines in many sports. I am convinced that the worst thing to happen to soccer in this country was the emergence of Premier/Club soccer over a town community based model.

and us lax thought that was a great model:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/191 ... ince-2006/
i'd like to see the numbers for soccer from '80 - '06.

I would too. Here is another article:

https://ussoccerfoundation.org/blog/aft ... good-news/

We have had a talent drain because the time/money and commitment has increased at younger ages. We are missing those 11 year old athletes that quit because the talented players drop town soccer for club leaving really good players not ready to commit behind. The competition drops and those players find something else. Give them a couple more years and many may select soccer. We are artificially creating a funnel which isn’t always based on talent and ability. That funnel works in other countries because there aren’t as many sport options for kids.

yup. didn't mj play some baseball as well until he figured out hoops may be his thing? and pool and golf.

[Typical Lax Dad]

impossible to know the landscape down the line.

had lacrosse continued its participation rate increases, there'd be a greater likelihood of more schools adopting in division 1. that growth has stalled.

covid has thrown at least a temporary wrench into expanding departments. and maybe contributed to a semi-permanent one.

continue to believe any potential p5 expansion comes down to an ad's want to. that's not hard and fast, as an ad may "want to", but is constrained any number of ways at a given time. but you need that first. those are your candidates. not in rando media quotes, but real want to.

if and when ath dept revenue growth (and lax participation growth) kicks back in, we may see some further adoption. is a ways off, it seems.

Sounds about right. I’m still hard pressed to believe many would’ve believed Richmond would drop soccer to add lacrosse a year before it happened if you had projected it would occur.

what us lacrosse didn't seem to consider is that growth for decades was fueled by grass roots stuff.

their end game was right there in front of them. but by hanging their hat on club/elite, they're now facing what every other sport is. flat to declining. and it was easy to see coming.

and a good chunk of their high profile targets... big university ath depts .... goes away, as lax isn't big enough.

Vultures have contributed to declines in many sports. I am convinced that the worst thing to happen to soccer in this country was the emergence of Premier/Club soccer over a town community based model.

and us lax thought that was a great model:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/191 ... ince-2006/
i'd like to see the numbers for soccer from '80 - '06.

I would too. Here is another article:

https://ussoccerfoundation.org/blog/aft ... good-news/

We have had a talent drain because the time/money and commitment has increased at younger ages. We are missing those 11 year old athletes that quit because the talented players drop town soccer for club leaving really good players not ready to commit behind. The competition drops and those players find something else. Give them a couple more years and many may select soccer. We are artificially creating a funnel which isn’t always based on talent and ability. That funnel works in other countries because there aren’t as many sport options for kids.

yup. didn't mj play some baseball as well until he figured out hoops may be his thing? and pool and golf.

Yep. He used to walk around basketball camp with his baseball glove.

[keno in reno]

Vultures have contributed to declines in many sports. I am convinced that the worst thing to happen to soccer in this country was the emergence of Premier/Club soccer over a town community based model.

But feeding the vultures is every insane soccer/hockey/lacrosse/swim/football parent who thinks their kid is either going D1 scholarship or Ivy League, when the real number like 1 in a 100. That same parent can be seen tailgating with other like-minded parents in the parking lot between every game.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Vultures have contributed to declines in many sports. I am convinced that the worst thing to happen to soccer in this country was the emergence of Premier/Club soccer over a town community based model.

But feeding the vultures is every insane soccer/hockey/lacrosse/swim/football parent who thinks their kid is either going D1 scholarship or Ivy League, when the real number like 1 in a 100. That same parent can be seen tailgating with other like-minded parents in the parking lot between every game.

Yes. I sent a friend of mine an article on over the top parents being all in and the extremes they go through to give their kids an edge. He agreed and said some parents are out of control……he enrolled his 6th grade kid at a school in England because the training and system is better….he doesn’t realize he was the type of parent at issue. He did manage to produce two kids that played college soccer. The better player paid his own freight at a selective school and the second son, not as good got a partial scholarship at Northeastern.

[cbrass]

I’m reposting something I had on the Maryland 22 page. Yup, it is too late and I am tooooo lazy for original thought.
BLUF
The game is pricing people out and kids are being told they won’t succeed before middle school.

cbrass wrote: ↑
Paul Rabill in his late night appearance with Seth Meyers talked about picking up a stick in 9th grade. Is he a generational talent? Is that why he succeeded? Maybe? I have never heard him described that way. What about the HS freshman today who has never played lacrosse and doesn’t pick up a stick because he is told it is too late. Just think of all the kids who don’t pick up the stick because there is no longer a local rec program. Not everyone has the means to join a club or the access to transportation to participate.

More importantly what about the 8, 9 or 10 year old who finds himself on the sideline with limited playing time because he isn’t as good as his teammates. Maybe that child gets discouraged and goes to another sport. You really have to be a visionary to tell an 8 year old they will never play at the “next level”.

Look around at the number of athletes who play professional sports, it is not a lot. But even so there are some who didn’t begin playing until HS. They just grew up into who they are without paying thousands of dollars to a club.

Grow the game, make it accessible through some of the new initiatives which through limited gear take out the cost factor. Let kids learn not just the game but what it means to be on and play for a team of their community. Don’t make it about specialization and lacrosse 365.

My two cents.

[River Donkey]

I’m reposting something I had on the Maryland 22 page. Yup, it is too late and I am tooooo lazy for original thought.
BLUF
The game is pricing people out and kids are being told they won’t succeed before middle school.

cbrass wrote: ↑
Paul Rabill in his late night appearance with Seth Meyers talked about picking up a stick in 9th grade. Is he a generational talent? Is that why he succeeded? Maybe? I have never heard him described that way. What about the HS freshman today who has never played lacrosse and doesn’t pick up a stick because he is told it is too late. Just think of all the kids who don’t pick up the stick because there is no longer a local rec program. Not everyone has the means to join a club or the access to transportation to participate.

More importantly what about the 8, 9 or 10 year old who finds himself on the sideline with limited playing time because he isn’t as good as his teammates. Maybe that child gets discouraged and goes to another sport. You really have to be a visionary to tell an 8 year old they will never play at the “next level”.

Look around at the number of athletes who play professional sports, it is not a lot. But even so there are some who didn’t begin playing until HS. They just grew up into who they are without paying thousands of dollars to a club.

Grow the game, make it accessible through some of the new initiatives which through limited gear take out the cost factor. Let kids learn not just the game but what it means to be on and play for a team of their community. Don’t make it about specialization and lacrosse 365.

My two cents.

[WhiteCarrera]

cbrass - great points.

Flashback to 2011 when our family moved to Indianapolis, and for the first time, my kids were in a community with lacrosse. My 8th grader went to his first workout with the local club, and my biggest fear was that some less-athletic kid with stick skills would embarrass him and not want to go back. Didn't happen. Subsequently he made the 8th grade A team, started in the first game he ever saw, varsity as a freshman, 3 time-all state, college scholarship, and played every quarter of every game for a top-10 D2 program.

In short, he was an athlete, smart and coachable, but sooooo much credit goes to the local coaches in the local youth program, who took him in and gave him a shot, encouraged him when they had 75 other 7/8th graders with more experience. He spoke in awe of the top kids, and the names he'd heard of from the next town over who played for that big-name club. It wasn't long before he was with those kids and excelling.

The flip side -- my #2 son had a teammate who was HUGE -- he'd have a collision and get penalized just for being too big. He wanted to play attack, and I let him. Anyway, when you're that big in Indiana you play basketball, and he did, dropped lacrosse, and ended up a good but not great 6' 10" center, with no scholarship offers and no desire to play D3 because he was burned out. He's always said he wished he'd never quit lacrosse - that it was the most fun he'd ever had.

In short, If this kid had continued to play lacrosse as well as basketball, he'd be a 6' 10" D1 attackman right now. The drive to specialize was wasted on a kid who just didn't have the natural ability to excel as an athletic 7-footer, and that's all he'd been primed for for 5 years. By the time he reached the end of that line, all the other opportunities were gone as well.

The push for kids to specialize ruins 10X more kids than it helps.

[Dip&Dunk]

Just for the sake of discussion, I will take the other side. The list of specialized sports is already long and getting longer.

1. Soccer: you can have it both ways, to a certain level, but don't think your athleticism will carry you to the highest level. There are too many elite athletes that are also specialized getting the minutes/roster spots/exposure.
2. Swimming: specialized and has been for 75 years.
3. Wrestling: depends on your location and weight group but certain wrestling techniques are already 100% specialized as are 99% of the elite wrestlers...and if you wrestle out east and move to the midwest, chances are you are moving down the depth chart....behind the specialists.
4. Hockey: see soccer.
5. Gymnastics/skiing/diving/rifle/water polo/volleyball/tennis/golf: all niche sports, all specialized...but isn't lacrosse a niche sport too (at the moment)?

Baseball/softball/basketball: the days of these sports being another sport lacrosse players play have basically disappeared. Basketball is year around. Baseball is close to that and as a spring sport, it directly conflicts with HS lax.

Football: This is probably the sport most think of as the "other" sport. I know firsthand in football towns there is no off season once you hit HS. Now add on top of that the 20% decline (620,000 bodies) in youth football experienced in the last non-covid year. I still believe you can "athlete" your way into this sport but I believe the benefits of football being the "other" sport are waning.

And we all have our examples of those who specialized and it did not come to fruition....we also have examples of players who did not specialize and it may have cost them too. Best athlete at my son's HS was a three sport stud. Football (tight end), basketball (forward/guard), lacrosse (LSM). Never good enough to get exposure but whole school/county knew he was amazing. No offers, now playing club sports at VT. He is very happy but we all think should of, would of, could of,...

So bottom line is why should lax be any different?

[Typical Lax Dad]

Just for the sake of discussion, I will take the other side. The list of specialized sports is already long and getting longer.

1. Soccer: you can have it both ways, to a certain level, but don't think your athleticism will carry you to the highest level. There are too many elite athletes that are also specialized getting the minutes/roster spots/exposure.
2. Swimming: specialized and has been for 75 years.
3. Wrestling: depends on your location and weight group but certain wrestling techniques are already 100% specialized as are 99% of the elite wrestlers...and if you wrestle out east and move to the midwest, chances are you are moving down the depth chart....behind the specialists.
4. Hockey: see soccer.
5. Gymnastics/skiing/diving/rifle/water polo/volleyball/tennis/golf: all niche sports, all specialized...but isn't lacrosse a niche sport too (at the moment)?

Baseball/softball/basketball: the days of these sports being another sport lacrosse players play have basically disappeared. Basketball is year around. Baseball is close to that and as a spring sport, it directly conflicts with HS lax.

Football: This is probably the sport most think of as the "other" sport. I know firsthand in football towns there is no off season once you hit HS. Now add on top of that the 20% decline (620,000 bodies) in youth football experienced in the last non-covid year. I still believe you can "athlete" your way into this sport but I believe the benefits of football being the "other" sport are waning.

And we all have our examples of those who specialized and it did not come to fruition....we also have examples of players who did not specialize and it may have cost them too. Best athlete at my son's HS was a three sport stud. Football (tight end), basketball (forward/guard), lacrosse (LSM). Never good enough to get exposure but whole school/county knew he was amazing. No offers, now playing club sports at VT. He is very happy but we all think should of, would of, could of,...

So bottom line is why should lax be any different?

There is a difference between focus on a main sport and being dedicated to it year round. My son played 3 sports through his freshman year of high school and club soccer and lacrosse through his sophomore year and played lacrosse from January to August and soccer from September to November as a junior and senior. Had a chance to play ACC soccer and lacrosse. You don’t have to play lacrosse year round to excel. Lot of hockey/lacrosse kids. Soccer is much harder but doable. Hard to become a pro…..BTW, was watching Columbus Crew play yesterday. Saw a kid just miss a beautiful opportunity to score….I saw him and started laughing because I had last seen him standing in front of a door at regional soccer camp where players making the regional call back camp were listed….he was crying because he didn’t make the cut… At the end of his freshman year. Development happens at different rates. One of his peers that made the regional team went to Germany a year later after signing with Borussia Dortmund…he is out of soccer now I believe.

[Farfromgeneva]

So now we’re all blaming Tierney for early recruiting?

[Typical Lax Dad]

So now we’re all blaming Tierney for early recruiting?

Early recruiting actually helped spread the talent around. I will never understand why Hopkins, UVA and UNC led that charge..(not talking about 2-3 kids, but 10-12 kids in a school’s recruiting class that hadn’t played any varsity lacrosse yet).

[Farfromgeneva]

So now we’re all blaming Tierney for early recruiting?

Early recruiting actually helped spread the talent around. I will never understand why Hopkins, UVA and UNC led that charge..(not talking about 2-3 kids, but 10-12 kids in a school’s recruiting class that hadn’t played any varsity lacrosse yet).

I know I was being sarcastic. But I also don’t know that the same schools would’ve kept their grip like in the 80s-90s anyways without ER.

But I would also argue for the marginal D1 lacrosse programs at less affluent schools that are tuition dependent it has other consequences and costs. Small amount but surely pushes down transition rate and 5yr grad rate impacting USNWR where these regional or non top 25 ranked University/liberal arts colleges really fight over each spot on that ladder. Changes the culture for sure bringing in kids committed when they were still learning the angle of their dangle. It’s not all upside and probably net negative for many of these schools to have followed suit.

(probably more than half of D1 or close if you use something like $750mm-$1bn to be fully independent of tuition assuming a 5% payout rate which leaves $40-$50mm each year for the operating budget and satisfies non-profit tax status - recent fiscal years for Middlebury and Hobart were in the $50-$60mm opex range and would presume the ASUN/SoCon/Parts of CAA and AE as well as NEC and MAAC mostly fall into that category).

[MDlaxfan76]

Just for the sake of discussion, I will take the other side. The list of specialized sports is already long and getting longer.

1. Soccer: you can have it both ways, to a certain level, but don't think your athleticism will carry you to the highest level. There are too many elite athletes that are also specialized getting the minutes/roster spots/exposure.
2. Swimming: specialized and has been for 75 years.
3. Wrestling: depends on your location and weight group but certain wrestling techniques are already 100% specialized as are 99% of the elite wrestlers...and if you wrestle out east and move to the midwest, chances are you are moving down the depth chart....behind the specialists.
4. Hockey: see soccer.
5. Gymnastics/skiing/diving/rifle/water polo/volleyball/tennis/golf: all niche sports, all specialized...but isn't lacrosse a niche sport too (at the moment)?

Baseball/softball/basketball: the days of these sports being another sport lacrosse players play have basically disappeared. Basketball is year around. Baseball is close to that and as a spring sport, it directly conflicts with HS lax.

Football: This is probably the sport most think of as the "other" sport. I know firsthand in football towns there is no off season once you hit HS. Now add on top of that the 20% decline (620,000 bodies) in youth football experienced in the last non-covid year. I still believe you can "athlete" your way into this sport but I believe the benefits of football being the "other" sport are waning.

And we all have our examples of those who specialized and it did not come to fruition....we also have examples of players who did not specialize and it may have cost them too. Best athlete at my son's HS was a three sport stud. Football (tight end), basketball (forward/guard), lacrosse (LSM). Never good enough to get exposure but whole school/county knew he was amazing. No offers, now playing club sports at VT. He is very happy but we all think should of, would of, could of,...

So bottom line is why should lax be any different?

I hope this discussion gets moved to its own thread, but in the meantime, I'd agree that there's a reality that over the past couple of decades achieving 'success' in many sports has required increasing specialization.

On the other hand, there are lots and lots of examples of kids who are highly successful in these sports who played multiple sports in HS, often through senior year. Playing multiple sports (especially earlier) doesn't mean that one sport in particular doesn't get outsized attention.

Yes, many of these sports demand near year round attention to the sport-specific skills. We all know that the old "sleep with your stick" advice, while a bit hokey, really is just an expression that to be truly great, it takes a lot of reps to achieve your very best. Gotta love it.

But I don't think this means that playing multiple sports is not still a good idea. Just don't expect to be truly elite in all of them. That's extremely unlikely, even for the phenoms. Just not enough time to get the 'reps' in in each.

For instance, when my son, a solid but certainly not exceptional athlete, moved into the goal as an 8th-9th grader, squash became a wonderful complement, terrific for eye hand and footwork, endurance, mano a mano competition...while he was good at squash, he didn't commit the same passion to it that he did to lacrosse...but he managed nevertheless to contribute to championship HS teams and could have walked on at most Ivy or D3 teams. But he wouldn't have been recruited as he didn't play year round and do all the tournaments it takes to build a national ranking, the way several on his team did. He was a decent football player, 6'1" but dropped football when the coaches wanted him to "beef up", so played volleyball and again contributed to multiple championship HS teams. He was never going to be elite level, but great teamwork, footwork, and fun.

Earlier on, he'd played rec soccer, football, basketball and baseball, a little ice hockey (which he wished he'd continued) as well as lacrosse, and country club travel golf and tennis. Taste of all sorts of sports. Lacrosse happened to be in the 'family genes' but I think he benefited from all those other experiences along the way. I helped coach many of those teams.

For lacrosse, he'd played since "Clinic" age 6, town rec ball...note this was in the Baltimore rec leagues, so many of the dads volunteer coaching were former star players, AA's etc; but pretty low key in the scheme of things. He was never the stud, "All-Star" player on the team, typically just one of the reliable, "smart" players on various "A" travel teams. Mostly a defenseman, he was big early, big paws, not fast afoot, but played some middle and attack as well. I had all our players get in the goal for at least a half a season and he was a willing, if not eager, tender...when the best goalie in his class decided to switch to attack after taking a couple of scary shots to the class, my son volunteered to step in on his middle school team, while still playing D on the travel rec team and on a newly formed travel "club" team made up primarily of kids from Gilman and Calvert Hall...the next year he committed full time to the goal, and trained at a 'dive' facility with a bunch of girls and boys, many of whom went on to AA and even Tewey status. He eventually earned a job there as well, free training for him...and he trained other tenders, including even women's college goalies while still in HS and then college. Running, lifting, footwork, goalie specific drills, etc. Again, not an exceptional athlete, but he worked hard at it.

Didn't start on his HS varsity team until senior year, but managed to get recruited and was all-Ivy when he became the starter.

So, lots of exposure to other sports, played multiple in HS, but focused on one which he particularly loved.

I'm concerned that the loss of the rec programs, if that's what's happening at earlier and earlier ages, may mean that these choices come too soon, and that there's increased risk of burn out.

[Farfromgeneva]

Just for the sake of discussion, I will take the other side. The list of specialized sports is already long and getting longer.

1. Soccer: you can have it both ways, to a certain level, but don't think your athleticism will carry you to the highest level. There are too many elite athletes that are also specialized getting the minutes/roster spots/exposure.
2. Swimming: specialized and has been for 75 years.
3. Wrestling: depends on your location and weight group but certain wrestling techniques are already 100% specialized as are 99% of the elite wrestlers...and if you wrestle out east and move to the midwest, chances are you are moving down the depth chart....behind the specialists.
4. Hockey: see soccer.
5. Gymnastics/skiing/diving/rifle/water polo/volleyball/tennis/golf: all niche sports, all specialized...but isn't lacrosse a niche sport too (at the moment)?

Baseball/softball/basketball: the days of these sports being another sport lacrosse players play have basically disappeared. Basketball is year around. Baseball is close to that and as a spring sport, it directly conflicts with HS lax.

Football: This is probably the sport most think of as the "other" sport. I know firsthand in football towns there is no off season once you hit HS. Now add on top of that the 20% decline (620,000 bodies) in youth football experienced in the last non-covid year. I still believe you can "athlete" your way into this sport but I believe the benefits of football being the "other" sport are waning.

And we all have our examples of those who specialized and it did not come to fruition....we also have examples of players who did not specialize and it may have cost them too. Best athlete at my son's HS was a three sport stud. Football (tight end), basketball (forward/guard), lacrosse (LSM). Never good enough to get exposure but whole school/county knew he was amazing. No offers, now playing club sports at VT. He is very happy but we all think should of, would of, could of,...

So bottom line is why should lax be any different?

Soem of the best VT athletes play D3-tiny state. We’ve got two brothers who were elite in Hs playing D3 football at Hobart. All everything in that state.

Older brother Jay
https://hwsathletics.com/sports/footbal ... ccoy/16182

Younger brother Joe (rumor is better but hasn’t played any college ball yet)
https://hwsathletics.com/sports/footbal ... ccoy/16183

[Farfromgeneva]

Just for the sake of discussion, I will take the other side. The list of specialized sports is already long and getting longer.

1. Soccer: you can have it both ways, to a certain level, but don't think your athleticism will carry you to the highest level. There are too many elite athletes that are also specialized getting the minutes/roster spots/exposure.
2. Swimming: specialized and has been for 75 years.
3. Wrestling: depends on your location and weight group but certain wrestling techniques are already 100% specialized as are 99% of the elite wrestlers...and if you wrestle out east and move to the midwest, chances are you are moving down the depth chart....behind the specialists.
4. Hockey: see soccer.
5. Gymnastics/skiing/diving/rifle/water polo/volleyball/tennis/golf: all niche sports, all specialized...but isn't lacrosse a niche sport too (at the moment)?

Baseball/softball/basketball: the days of these sports being another sport lacrosse players play have basically disappeared. Basketball is year around. Baseball is close to that and as a spring sport, it directly conflicts with HS lax.

Football: This is probably the sport most think of as the "other" sport. I know firsthand in football towns there is no off season once you hit HS. Now add on top of that the 20% decline (620,000 bodies) in youth football experienced in the last non-covid year. I still believe you can "athlete" your way into this sport but I believe the benefits of football being the "other" sport are waning.

And we all have our examples of those who specialized and it did not come to fruition....we also have examples of players who did not specialize and it may have cost them too. Best athlete at my son's HS was a three sport stud. Football (tight end), basketball (forward/guard), lacrosse (LSM). Never good enough to get exposure but whole school/county knew he was amazing. No offers, now playing club sports at VT. He is very happy but we all think should of, would of, could of,...

So bottom line is why should lax be any different?

I hope this discussion gets moved to its own thread, but in the meantime, I'd agree that there's a reality that over the past couple of decades achieving 'success' in many sports has required increasing specialization.

On the other hand, there are lots and lots of examples of kids who are highly successful in these sports who played multiple sports in HS, often through senior year. Playing multiple sports (especially earlier) doesn't mean that one sport in particular doesn't get outsized attention.

Yes, many of these sports demand near year round attention to the sport-specific skills. We all know that the old "sleep with your stick" advice, while a bit hokey, really is just an expression that to be truly great, it takes a lot of reps to achieve your very best. Gotta love it.

But I don't think this means that playing multiple sports is not still a good idea. Just don't expect to be truly elite in all of them. That's extremely unlikely, even for the phenoms. Just not enough time to get the 'reps' in in each.

For instance, when my son, a solid but certainly not exceptional athlete, moved into the goal as an 8th-9th grader, squash became a wonderful complement, terrific for eye hand and footwork, endurance, mano a mano competition...while he was good at squash, he didn't commit the same passion to it that he did to lacrosse...but he managed nevertheless to contribute to championship HS teams and could have walked on at most Ivy or D3 teams. But he wouldn't have been recruited as he didn't play year round and do all the tournaments it takes to build a national ranking, the way several on his team did. He was a decent football player, 6'1" but dropped football when the coaches wanted him to "beef up", so played volleyball and again contributed to multiple championship HS teams. He was never going to be elite level, but great teamwork, footwork, and fun.

Earlier on, he'd played rec soccer, football, basketball and baseball, a little ice hockey (which he wished he'd continued) as well as lacrosse, and country club travel golf and tennis. Taste of all sorts of sports. Lacrosse happened to be in the 'family genes' but I think he benefited from all those other experiences along the way. I helped coach many of those teams.

For lacrosse, he'd played since "Clinic" age 6, town rec ball...note this was in the Baltimore rec leagues, so many of the dads volunteer coaching were former star players, AA's etc; but pretty low key in the scheme of things. He was never the stud, "All-Star" player on the team, typically just one of the reliable, "smart" players on various "A" travel teams. Mostly a defenseman, he was big early, big paws, not fast afoot, but played some middle and attack as well. I had all our players get in the goal for at least a half a season and he was a willing, if not eager, tender...when the best goalie in his class decided to switch to attack after taking a couple of scary shots to the class, my son volunteered to step in on his middle school team, while still playing D on the travel rec team and on a newly formed travel "club" team made up primarily of kids from Gilman and Calvert Hall...the next year he committed full time to the goal, and trained at a 'dive' facility with a bunch of girls and boys, many of whom went on to AA and even Tewey status. He eventually earned a job there as well, free training for him...and he trained other tenders, including even women's college goalies while still in HS and then college. Running, lifting, footwork, goalie specific drills, etc. Again, not an exceptional athlete, but he worked hard at it.

Didn't start on his HS varsity team until senior year, but managed to get recruited and was all-Ivy when he became the starter.

So, lots of exposure to other sports, played multiple in HS, but focused on one which he particularly loved.

I'm concerned that the loss of the rec programs, if that's what's happening at earlier and earlier ages, may mean that these choices come too soon, and that there's increased risk of burn out.

FR year at Bart I had to drop 25lbs over the holiday season into the new year going from playing football to tennis that spring. Not healthy.

[Farfromgeneva]

Just for the sake of discussion, I will take the other side. The list of specialized sports is already long and getting longer.

1. Soccer: you can have it both ways, to a certain level, but don't think your athleticism will carry you to the highest level. There are too many elite athletes that are also specialized getting the minutes/roster spots/exposure.
2. Swimming: specialized and has been for 75 years.
3. Wrestling: depends on your location and weight group but certain wrestling techniques are already 100% specialized as are 99% of the elite wrestlers...and if you wrestle out east and move to the midwest, chances are you are moving down the depth chart....behind the specialists.
4. Hockey: see soccer.
5. Gymnastics/skiing/diving/rifle/water polo/volleyball/tennis/golf: all niche sports, all specialized...but isn't lacrosse a niche sport too (at the moment)?

Baseball/softball/basketball: the days of these sports being another sport lacrosse players play have basically disappeared. Basketball is year around. Baseball is close to that and as a spring sport, it directly conflicts with HS lax.

Football: This is probably the sport most think of as the "other" sport. I know firsthand in football towns there is no off season once you hit HS. Now add on top of that the 20% decline (620,000 bodies) in youth football experienced in the last non-covid year. I still believe you can "athlete" your way into this sport but I believe the benefits of football being the "other" sport are waning.

And we all have our examples of those who specialized and it did not come to fruition....we also have examples of players who did not specialize and it may have cost them too. Best athlete at my son's HS was a three sport stud. Football (tight end), basketball (forward/guard), lacrosse (LSM). Never good enough to get exposure but whole school/county knew he was amazing. No offers, now playing club sports at VT. He is very happy but we all think should of, would of, could of,...

So bottom line is why should lax be any different?

I hope this discussion gets moved to its own thread, but in the meantime, I'd agree that there's a reality that over the past couple of decades achieving 'success' in many sports has required increasing specialization.

On the other hand, there are lots and lots of examples of kids who are highly successful in these sports who played multiple sports in HS, often through senior year. Playing multiple sports (especially earlier) doesn't mean that one sport in particular doesn't get outsized attention.

Yes, many of these sports demand near year round attention to the sport-specific skills. We all know that the old "sleep with your stick" advice, while a bit hokey, really is just an expression that to be truly great, it takes a lot of reps to achieve your very best. Gotta love it.

But I don't think this means that playing multiple sports is not still a good idea. Just don't expect to be truly elite in all of them. That's extremely unlikely, even for the phenoms. Just not enough time to get the 'reps' in in each.

For instance, when my son, a solid but certainly not exceptional athlete, moved into the goal as an 8th-9th grader, squash became a wonderful complement, terrific for eye hand and footwork, endurance, mano a mano competition...while he was good at squash, he didn't commit the same passion to it that he did to lacrosse...but he managed nevertheless to contribute to championship HS teams and could have walked on at most Ivy or D3 teams. But he wouldn't have been recruited as he didn't play year round and do all the tournaments it takes to build a national ranking, the way several on his team did. He was a decent football player, 6'1" but dropped football when the coaches wanted him to "beef up", so played volleyball and again contributed to multiple championship HS teams. He was never going to be elite level, but great teamwork, footwork, and fun.

Earlier on, he'd played rec soccer, football, basketball and baseball, a little ice hockey (which he wished he'd continued) as well as lacrosse, and country club travel golf and tennis. Taste of all sorts of sports. Lacrosse happened to be in the 'family genes' but I think he benefited from all those other experiences along the way. I helped coach many of those teams.

For lacrosse, he'd played since "Clinic" age 6, town rec ball...note this was in the Baltimore rec leagues, so many of the dads volunteer coaching were former star players, AA's etc; but pretty low key in the scheme of things. He was never the stud, "All-Star" player on the team, typically just one of the reliable, "smart" players on various "A" travel teams. Mostly a defenseman, he was big early, big paws, not fast afoot, but played some middle and attack as well. I had all our players get in the goal for at least a half a season and he was a willing, if not eager, tender...when the best goalie in his class decided to switch to attack after taking a couple of scary shots to the class, my son volunteered to step in on his middle school team, while still playing D on the travel rec team and on a newly formed travel "club" team made up primarily of kids from Gilman and Calvert Hall...the next year he committed full time to the goal, and trained at a 'dive' facility with a bunch of girls and boys, many of whom went on to AA and even Tewey status. He eventually earned a job there as well, free training for him...and he trained other tenders, including even women's college goalies while still in HS and then college. Running, lifting, footwork, goalie specific drills, etc. Again, not an exceptional athlete, but he worked hard at it.

Didn't start on his HS varsity team until senior year, but managed to get recruited and was all-Ivy when he became the starter.

So, lots of exposure to other sports, played multiple in HS, but focused on one which he particularly loved.

I'm concerned that the loss of the rec programs, if that's what's happening at earlier and earlier ages, may mean that these choices come too soon, and that there's increased risk of burn out.

Opportunities for success at higher levels are subject to the machine and business around the specialization more than the specialization itself in general (I would believe even for FOGOs). IL influences rankings and Hs accolades which is in turn based on what clubs you play on. Otherwise you wouldn’t see Goldsmith, Holden, Nolting, Crowley (SB), Baptiste, etc.

I think somehow we have to separate the value of specialization from the value of the business of specialization to provide opportunities.

Corollary would be boarding school vs public school. You’re buying more structure and independent living combined with the guidance counselors roldoex of college relationships. I was one of only 2 people in my top 20 did not go IVY (one went swarthmore which I’m including as Ivy like in my 18) but did get late admit to brown and one of my closest friends went to UofR. That was better than the top 20 at Deerfield that year I know from a friend.