Taliban reclaims Afghanistan

[PizzaSnake]

"Could you point me to the business plan that was created to generate wealth from the war?

Halliburton no-bid contract awards. I wouldn't say created, but rather utilized.

Unfortunately I am very familiar with government contracting and the poor return on investment it generally yields. If it is intended as a tax-redistribution vehicle that's fine, but don't all it efficient.

"Cheney repeatedly has denied that he had any influence over the decision to award the massive contract last March. "As vice president, I have absolutely no influence of, involvement of, knowledge of in any way, shape or form of contracts let by the Corps of Engineers or anybody else in the federal government," he said on NBC's "Meet The Press" last fall.

Cheney's staff stood by that statement Sunday."

Strains credulity...

Qui bono?

Why you making me defend Dick Cheney? I’m no fan of the guy. Leave him out there’s like a bunch of civil servants and military people backing him up here so they’re all in on it including the military folks and many civil servants if it were a big conspiracy. Is that what we all believe that it includes an army of civil servants and military professionals including administrative ones to support? If so then focusing on Cheney doesn’t really matter as there’s a much larger problem there. Army corp of engineers is corrupt. Pentagon is corrupt. GSA is corrupt. I don’t think that’s the case but if it’s a conspiracy then they’re all involved. Its not good I just think it’s far less nefarious and planned out then is suggested here by some.

"Army corp of engineers is corrupt. Pentagon is corrupt. GSA is corrupt. I don’t think that’s the case but if it’s a conspiracy then they’re all involved. Its not good I just think it’s far less nefarious and planned out then is suggested here by some."

Halliburton is just an exemplar; not a nefarious conspiracy, just endemic to the government contracting world. Of course the government employees are complicit -- their jobs and performance ratings depend on it. Imagine how bad it would be if the "fig leaf" of the civil service system didn't exist.
As it is, they "just "rode the bus" and "made no waves".

Don't be naive about human behavior and power dynamics. There's a reason "whistleblowers" is in the lexicon and why they so often meet unpleasant ends while striving to protect the interests of the larger group. Personally, I think qui tam suits are a better mechanism.

[Farfromgeneva]

"Could you point me to the business plan that was created to generate wealth from the war?

Halliburton no-bid contract awards. I wouldn't say created, but rather utilized.

Unfortunately I am very familiar with government contracting and the poor return on investment it generally yields. If it is intended as a tax-redistribution vehicle that's fine, but don't all it efficient.

"Cheney repeatedly has denied that he had any influence over the decision to award the massive contract last March. "As vice president, I have absolutely no influence of, involvement of, knowledge of in any way, shape or form of contracts let by the Corps of Engineers or anybody else in the federal government," he said on NBC's "Meet The Press" last fall.

Cheney's staff stood by that statement Sunday."

Strains credulity...

Qui bono?

Why you making me defend Dick Cheney? I’m no fan of the guy. Leave him out there’s like a bunch of civil servants and military people backing him up here so they’re all in on it including the military folks and many civil servants if it were a big conspiracy. Is that what we all believe that it includes an army of civil servants and military professionals including administrative ones to support? If so then focusing on Cheney doesn’t really matter as there’s a much larger problem there. Army corp of engineers is corrupt. Pentagon is corrupt. GSA is corrupt. I don’t think that’s the case but if it’s a conspiracy then they’re all involved. Its not good I just think it’s far less nefarious and planned out then is suggested here by some.

"Army corp of engineers is corrupt. Pentagon is corrupt. GSA is corrupt. I don’t think that’s the case but if it’s a conspiracy then they’re all involved. Its not good I just think it’s far less nefarious and planned out then is suggested here by some."

Halliburton is just an exemplar; not a nefarious conspiracy, just endemic to the government contracting world. Of course the government employees are complicit -- their jobs and performance ratings depend on it. Imagine how bad it would be if the "fig leaf" of the civil service system didn't exist.
As it is, they "just "rode the bus" and "made no waves".

Don't be naive about human behavior and power dynamics. There's a reason "whistleblowers" is in the lexicon and why they so often meet unpleasant ends while striving to protect the interests of the larger group. Personally, I think qui tam suits are a better mechanism.

Fair enough. I think focusing on the systemic problem is probably more effective than some person in a timeline. Now how to create real change? No f’ng idea. It’s such a quagmire now and rules and systems written is pectin codified ways by lawyers who think they are too clever by half but always leaves explicit rules based opportunities for arbitrage. Accounting for example is the us is explicit rules based whereas in Europe they follow more of a spirit of the rule system of enforce mtn which leaves some risk of administrative overreach but at least forces the community to confront each issue individually rather than “it’s fair game based on the very explicit rules written”.

You should check out a HBO show that’s new called White Lotus, and not just because one of the most underrated hotties is a star in it but rather because of the crazy power dynamics between rich guests and employees of a resort plus within the resort structure where the head manager of the resort is kind of a POS himself and acknowledges it.

[youthathletics]

Interesting take from Crenshaw on how DoS overruled DoD: https://www.instagram.com/p/CSuddCBA8kk ... _copy_link

[DocBarrister]

WW2 was an entirely different beast. Vietnam and Afghanistan were/are local civil wars -- this was clear from the very beginning.

Any possible conflict between China and Taiwan (as with Korea) is also a civil war and none of our business.

I don’t agree on China and Korea. Could live with the Taiwan comment.

There is a point where if one counterpart is rolling up the entire world where national defense does kick in. Not sure where that line is but we can’t just hole up and let someone else ultimately strong arm us into deference. Not like the way I apparently “muscled” someone else here recently.

I believe there is a mutual defense treaty between the United States and South Korea that obligates each nation to respond if subject to an external military attack. I think that’s one reason South Korean troops were in Afghanistan. We made the defense of South Korea “our business” (and vice versa) nearly six decades ago by formal treaty.

The Republic of China is a different story. No formal treaty obligation (think that ended four decades ago), but an informal understanding.

DocBarrister

[DocBarrister]

Eloquent and impassioned speech from British MP/veteran Tom Tugendhat who specifically lowered the boom on Joe Biden's comments on Afghan military.

https://twitter.com/JamesAALongman/stat ... 5324484608

He gives everyone much to think about especially Uncle Joe. In apparent rush to get out, throwing our NATO allies under the bus as well as Afghan military is not only not a good look but likely not in our national interest going forward.

I'm reminded of Benjamin Franklin's famous line on the eve of signing the Declaration of Independence

"We must all hang together, or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

Nonsensical British garbage.

I believe it was an Englishman, William Camden, who first coined the phrase (at least in writing), “The proof is in the pudding.”

The Afghan Security Forces demonstrated their bravery (or lack thereof) by refusing to fight.

That Brit is an imbecile.

Case closed. End of discussion.

DocBarrister

[DMac]

What an absolutely awful thing to say Doc, which is not to say it's at all surprising coming from you. This is a man telling you what he saw and did and all you have to say about him is that he's an imbecile. Shame on your elitist, cushy asz, Doc, your ignorance of what it's like to experience something like this is shining brighter than the sun, and people like you make people like me sick. I promise you that you can find some Vietnam vets who will tell you how bravely the South Vietnamese units they fought alongside fought in that war and how committed to the cause they were (just like this guy is telling you what his experience was in Afghanistan) but I'm sure you'd tell me what imbeciles they are too. You can also find people like me who will tell you that the South Vietnamese forces weren't worth the powder to blow 'em to hell and that they weren't willing to fight their own war nor were the American forces in time. We bailed on that war, Doc, just like we did this one and the people who went and actually experienced it are hurting as you can tell by listening to the man you call an imbecile. I feel for this guy...oh, and I'd pay good money to see you call him an imbecile eyeball to eyeball.

[PizzaSnake]

So, evidently the true state of Afghanistan has been known and publicized for years. Was this another Casablanca gambling moment?

"This link will take you to every report filed by SIGAR, the Office of the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction. Congress created the agency to maintain an independent oversight on the billions of dollars the U.S. appropriated for Afghanistan's reconstruction since 2002.

https://www.sigar.mil/allreports/

"All the signs have been there," the head of the watchdog agency, John Sopko, told "All Things Considered" on Sunday.

Sopko said his agency released multiple reports and he testified more than 50 times to sound the warning in the last decade."

'I mean, we've been shining a light on it in multiple reports going back to when I started [in] 2012 about changing metrics, about ghosts, ghost soldiers who didn't exist, about poor logistics, about the fact that the Afghans couldn't sustain what we were giving them," he said. "So these reports have come out."

The speed with which the Taliban overtook Afghanistan "maybe is a little bit of a surprise," Sopko said. But "the fact that the ANDSF [Afghan National Defense and Security Forces] could not fight on their own should not have been a surprise to anyone."'

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/15/10279519 ... fghanistan

[Brooklyn]

Desperate Afghan Women Wait for U.S. Protection, as Promised
Afghan women who worked with the U.S. or international groups are frantically erasing any trace of those links for fear that they will be targeted by the Taliban.


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/18/us/p ... ction.html


Even as they cling to hope of being rescued by the American government, Afghan women who worked with the United States over the past 20 years are destroying any hint of that association — shredding documents written in English, deleting social media apps and then burying their cellphones.

Current and former U.S. officials and activists described the desperate steps Afghan women have taken since the Taliban’s takeover of their country this week as a grim reminder of the heightened threat they face because of their gender.

Any attempt to contact American or international refugee agencies is a risk that most Afghan women are not willing to take, the officials and activists said. Even going to the airport in Kabul, to try to secure a place on an American or international flight overflowing with anguished Afghans, has become a life-or-death decision.

“The most dangerous place in Afghanistan right now is the Kabul airport,” Rina Amiri, a former official at the State Department and United Nations, said on Tuesday. She recounted stories of women and their families being caught between volleys of gunfire, or beaten by Taliban supporters, as they tried but failed to find a plane that would fly them out.

“It’s just damning that the United States and the international community have put these women in the position of having to risk not only their lives, but that of their children and families, in order to leave and save themselves and their families,” Ms. Amiri said.

Afghan men make up most of the interpreters and cultural officers who have worked for the United States over the 20-year war and, in turn, have been granted special access to immigrate. That is one reason relatively few women have been among the thousands of people who have been evacuated from Afghanistan over the past month — including more than 4,800 as of Wednesday morning since the Taliban’s takeover of the government in Kabul. Tens of thousands of visa applicants remain stranded across the country ....





Watch the movie "Five Branded Women":





When one commits treason, they must face the consequences. Shaved heads, ridicule, whippings, and the scaffold for female traitors. NO MERCY WHATSOEVER.

[Farfromgeneva]

Despite the PR blitz axios is reporting that they’re already tearing ish up there.

Taliban respond to rare protest with violent crackdown
Ivana Saric
Ivana Saric
Taliban members are seen near Hamid Karzai International Airport
Taliban members are seen near Hamid Karzai International Airport as thousands of Afghans rush to flee the Afghan capital of Kabul on Aug. 16. Photo: Haroon Sabawoon/Anadolu Agency via Getty Images
The Taliban violently dispersed dozens of protesters in the city of Jalalabad in eastern Afghanistan on Wednesday, killing at least one person after the demonstrators removed the Taliban flag and replaced it with the national flag, AP reports.

Why it matters: The violence stands in stark contrast to the more benevolent image the Taliban have sought to cast since taking power, claiming they'd grant "amnesty" to supporters of the Afghan government and honor women's rights within their "cultural frameworks."

It also renews fears that the group will return to the brutal grip it ruled with in the 1990s, when women's and other rights were severely restricted.
The big picture: Taliban fighters in Jalalabad fired into the crowd and beat demonstrators with batons, per AP.

Hundreds of protesters also demonstrated in the city of Khost and were violently attacked by the Taliban, the New York Times reports.
Protesters also took to the streets in Asadabad, per the Wall Street Journal.
Despite assuring the U.S. they would allow safe passage of civilians to the airport in Kabul, the Taliban have instituted checkpoints outside its perimeter and have been violently pushing back those seeking entry, per the Journal.

The Taliban unleashed rounds of gunfire into the air and beat families seeking entry, the Journal reports.
The chaos and violence succeeded in thinning out the crowds of Afghans trying to enter the airport, CNN reports.
What they're saying: “The situation is very bad at the gate,” Lida Ahmadi, who applied for a special immigrant visa, told the Journal. “I slept on the road last night. Now, after two nights and two days at the gate, we’ve finally got the chance to come in."

“The crowd pushed us from the back and she fell down. Her knee was badly hurt by a rock, and she can’t really walk now,” Esrar Ahmad, a former interpreter for U.S. troops who entered the airport Wednesday, told the Journal about how his wife was injured in the crowd at the airport gate.
Go deeper: Evacuating Afghanistan

[Brooklyn]

These 16 Republicans voted against speeding up visas for Afghans fleeing the Taliban


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... uxbndlbing

Some of the Republican House members who this week excoriated President Joe Biden's strategy to pull U.S. troops out of Afghanistan and evacuate Afghan civilians voted last month against legislation to speed up the visa application process for Afghan citizens.

American military to relocate to the U.S. The Averting Loss of Life and Injury by Expediting SIVs Act (ALLIES) Act was approved by a 407-16 vote on July 22. The 16 "no" votes were all from Republicans.

The ALLIES Act removes some application requirements for Afghan special immigrant visas that led to long backlogs and wait times. It also boosts the number of visas for Afghans by an additional 8,000 to 19,000. Rep. Jason Crow, D-Colo., introduced the bill in June, with 24 bipartisan cosponsors.

We have a moral obligation to make sure the American handshake matters, that we are keeping our promises,” Crow told Colorado Public Radio. “We have to show to the world that our word is our bond.”

Biden has faced withering bipartisan criticisms for his handling of the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan, which has led to the Taliban's return to power.




Yep. Republicans have a big role in the long delay to get treasonous Afghans out of their land. Maybe this way they will stay and get justice for their treason. It's what they deserve. Had anyone betrayed the USA each of you would say the same.

[old salt]

The Afghan Air Force flyaway to Uzbekistan :

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... k-airfield

If this ends as well as Saigon, it will be a relative success. It still has the potential to be Dien Bien Phu.
We will soon have 6,000 troops in an indefensible position. This is just the beginning of the end.

Gen Milley did not rule out the possibility of re-taking Bagram. When asked specifically, comparing Bagram to KHIA, about retaking Bagram to expedite the evac, he said " That's a good question. Great question" & declined to discuss possible branches from the current plan.
Likewise, SecDef Austin did not rule out the possibility of extending out corridors to the airport. ...significant answers in their non-answers.

[jhu72]

Despite the PR blitz axios is reporting that they’re already tearing ish up there.

Taliban respond to rare protest with violent crackdown
Ivana Saric
Ivana Saric
Taliban members are seen near Hamid Karzai International Airport
Taliban members are seen near Hamid Karzai International Airport as thousands of Afghans rush to flee the Afghan capital of Kabul on Aug. 16. Photo: Haroon Sabawoon/Anadolu Agency via Getty Images
The Taliban violently dispersed dozens of protesters in the city of Jalalabad in eastern Afghanistan on Wednesday, killing at least one person after the demonstrators removed the Taliban flag and replaced it with the national flag, AP reports.

Why it matters: The violence stands in stark contrast to the more benevolent image the Taliban have sought to cast since taking power, claiming they'd grant "amnesty" to supporters of the Afghan government and honor women's rights within their "cultural frameworks."

It also renews fears that the group will return to the brutal grip it ruled with in the 1990s, when women's and other rights were severely restricted.
The big picture: Taliban fighters in Jalalabad fired into the crowd and beat demonstrators with batons, per AP.

Hundreds of protesters also demonstrated in the city of Khost and were violently attacked by the Taliban, the New York Times reports.
Protesters also took to the streets in Asadabad, per the Wall Street Journal.
Despite assuring the U.S. they would allow safe passage of civilians to the airport in Kabul, the Taliban have instituted checkpoints outside its perimeter and have been violently pushing back those seeking entry, per the Journal.

The Taliban unleashed rounds of gunfire into the air and beat families seeking entry, the Journal reports.
The chaos and violence succeeded in thinning out the crowds of Afghans trying to enter the airport, CNN reports.
What they're saying: “The situation is very bad at the gate,” Lida Ahmadi, who applied for a special immigrant visa, told the Journal. “I slept on the road last night. Now, after two nights and two days at the gate, we’ve finally got the chance to come in."

“The crowd pushed us from the back and she fell down. Her knee was badly hurt by a rock, and she can’t really walk now,” Esrar Ahmad, a former interpreter for U.S. troops who entered the airport Wednesday, told the Journal about how his wife was injured in the crowd at the airport gate.
Go deeper: Evacuating Afghanistan

... even if the Taliban brass intend to govern differently from last time, which does make some sense, the rank and file is unlikely to have gotten the word, or agree with it if they have. They are not monolithic. A western reporter close to the Taliban claims the Taliban themselves are surprised how quickly they were able to move through the country and how little resistance they encountered. The speed of the collapse surprised even them.

[old salt]

https://news.usni.org/2021/08/18/secdef ... more-88023

The U.S. was building toward moving to an upper limit of 9,000 people aboard military transport planes with a plan for flights to leave hourly.

While a photo of a C-17 loaded with almost 700 people emerged over the weekend, most of the transports are averaging much fewer. In a 24-hour period, 18 C-17 Globemasters left Kabul with a total of 2,000 people aboard. That average is about 110 people per plane – or less than half the personnel transport capacity of a Globemaster. Reports from Kabul say some planes left with only a handful of people aboard.

On Wednesday, Austin said the largest barrier to evacuation was vetting people to get aboard the aircraft. Marines specializing in processing evacuees have recently arrived on the ground in Afghanistan to aid in the throughput, Pentagon officials said on Wednesday.

The Marines with the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit who embarked with the Iwo Jima Amphibious Ready Group are part of the 4,500 U.S. troops that are currently securing the airport in Kabul.

“Some of the 4,500 include 1,300 Marines that are on deck and they are to continue to flow in there from the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit and the Special Marine Air-Ground Task Force Crisis Response,” Kirby said.

“When we talked about sending this crisis response group, we’re also deploying some evacuation control teams from the Marines that do this really, really well in terms of helping the consular officers manifest and review the paperwork for incoming people,” Kirby said.
“That’s really what we’re focused on over the next 24 hours is how we are reviewing and helping the State Department process individuals qualified individuals to get manifested.”

The unit is part of the logistics component of the 24th MEU, which includes Marines who are trained in processing evacuees, a defense official confirmed to USNI News.

Marines from the 24th MEU were quietly moved off the three-ship ARG in early August and positioned in Kuwait to be transported via C-17 into Afghanistan in case of an armed evacuation. They were joined by elements of the Special Purpose Marine Air-Ground Task Force (MAGTF) Crisis Response – a 2,000-Marine unit based in U.S. Central Command.

“[Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin] forward-deployed troops, including Marines off of their ship and into Kuwait so that they can be more readily available,” Kirby said earlier this week.

In addition to the two Marine battalions, the U.S. has deployed a brigade of three infantry battalions from the 82nd Airborne Division and a battalion from the Minnesota National Guard to the airport. A battalion from the 10th Mountain Division is securing the U.S. embassy following the evacuation of its staff to the airport, Milley told reporters. In addition, there are unspecified special operations forces in the region.

Milley also stressed the U.S. ability to carry out airstrikes, referencing fighters and unmanned vehicles that could operate from other parts of the Middle East and from USS Ronald Reagan (CVN-76), which is currently operating in the North Arabian Sea. Milley did not address questions if the U.S. would consider taking and using the shuttered Bagram Airbase to help with the evacuation.

The U.K. is conducting their own parallel operation after sending in elements of the Royal Army’s 16 Air Assault Brigade to assist in evacuating British nationals and allied Afghans as part of Operation Pitting, the U.K. Ministry of Defence announced on Wednesday.

[jhu72]

A voice worth listening too.

[jhu72]

Is Stephen Miller a war criminal?

It is rich that the Trumpnista who are anti-immigrant and very very hesitant to support the immigration of these Afghan "contractors" are some of the loudest in making the obvious virtue signaling arguments. Governors to this point refusing to accept their resettlement.

[Kismet]

https://www.justsecurity.org/77801/cias ... uch-worse/

CIA’s Former Counterterrorism Chief for the Region: Afghanistan, Not An Intelligence Failure — Something Much Worse

"While it’s certainly convenient to depict the shock and miscalculation U.S. officials claim over Afghanistan’s tragic, rapid fall to the Taliban as an intelligence failure, the reality is far worse. It’s a convenient deflection of responsibility for decisions taken owing to political and ideological considerations and provides a scapegoat for a policy decision that’s otherwise unable to offer a persuasive defense."

It's not the "deep state" nor is it the first time the pols deflect responsibility from their own policy decisions/failures. Former DOPUS turned it into an olympic sport but Biden is also doing it in his own way to cover his own bad decisions.

[jhu72]

I think it is pretty clear there were voices inside the administration that knew things would fall apart pretty quickly. According to Richard Engel, a week ago, the earliest crash and burn estimate by intel sources was mid-September. Most estimates much farther out. Its clear Biden and the military engaged in wishful thinking. To my mind it doesn't really matter, there is and was no risk free safe way out to my mind. In order to believe there was, you have to believe people who did not want to leave, they never do. Just 3000 more men and another year. The same people who have gotten us where we are. To my mind they have no credibility on the issue.

[Farfromgeneva]

Despite the PR blitz axios is reporting that they’re already tearing ish up there.

Taliban respond to rare protest with violent crackdown
Ivana Saric
Ivana Saric
Taliban members are seen near Hamid Karzai International Airport
Taliban members are seen near Hamid Karzai International Airport as thousands of Afghans rush to flee the Afghan capital of Kabul on Aug. 16. Photo: Haroon Sabawoon/Anadolu Agency via Getty Images
The Taliban violently dispersed dozens of protesters in the city of Jalalabad in eastern Afghanistan on Wednesday, killing at least one person after the demonstrators removed the Taliban flag and replaced it with the national flag, AP reports.

Why it matters: The violence stands in stark contrast to the more benevolent image the Taliban have sought to cast since taking power, claiming they'd grant "amnesty" to supporters of the Afghan government and honor women's rights within their "cultural frameworks."

It also renews fears that the group will return to the brutal grip it ruled with in the 1990s, when women's and other rights were severely restricted.
The big picture: Taliban fighters in Jalalabad fired into the crowd and beat demonstrators with batons, per AP.

Hundreds of protesters also demonstrated in the city of Khost and were violently attacked by the Taliban, the New York Times reports.
Protesters also took to the streets in Asadabad, per the Wall Street Journal.
Despite assuring the U.S. they would allow safe passage of civilians to the airport in Kabul, the Taliban have instituted checkpoints outside its perimeter and have been violently pushing back those seeking entry, per the Journal.

The Taliban unleashed rounds of gunfire into the air and beat families seeking entry, the Journal reports.
The chaos and violence succeeded in thinning out the crowds of Afghans trying to enter the airport, CNN reports.
What they're saying: “The situation is very bad at the gate,” Lida Ahmadi, who applied for a special immigrant visa, told the Journal. “I slept on the road last night. Now, after two nights and two days at the gate, we’ve finally got the chance to come in."

“The crowd pushed us from the back and she fell down. Her knee was badly hurt by a rock, and she can’t really walk now,” Esrar Ahmad, a former interpreter for U.S. troops who entered the airport Wednesday, told the Journal about how his wife was injured in the crowd at the airport gate.
Go deeper: Evacuating Afghanistan

... even if the Taliban brass intend to govern differently from last time, which does make some sense, the rank and file is unlikely to have gotten the word, or agree with it if they have. They are not monolithic. A western reporter close to the Taliban claims the Taliban themselves are surprised how quickly they were able to move through the country and how little resistance they encountered. The speed of the collapse surprised even them.

I guess I mean no group is monolithic. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t a hierarchy and power/authority structure.

[Farfromgeneva]

Is Stephen Miller a war criminal?

It is rich that the Trumpnista who are anti-immigrant and very very hesitant to support the immigration of these Afghan "contractors" are some of the loudest in making the obvious virtue signaling arguments. Governors to this point refusing to accept their resettlement.

Duke grad what do you expect?

[Farfromgeneva]

I think it is pretty clear there were voices inside the administration that knew things would fall apart pretty quickly. According to Richard Engel, a week ago, the earliest crash and burn estimate by intel sources was mid-September. Most estimates much farther out. Its clear Biden and the military engaged in wishful thinking. To my mind it doesn't really matter, there is and was no risk free safe way out to my mind. In order to believe there was, you have to believe people who did not want to leave, they never do. Just 3000 more men and another year. The same people who have gotten us where we are. To my mind they have no credibility on the issue.

Sadly I’d argue it was mainly “wishful thinking” that started this mess 20yrs ago...