JUST the Stolen Documents/Mar-A-Lago/"Judge" Cannon Trial

[Typical Lax Dad]

Salty, my primary issue with your critique ( in addition to thinking you exaggerate) is that you had no such outrage at Trump’s timeline and commitment to it. Nope, different party, automatically bums and bad decisions.

Also, I posted this shortly after the election :

On 1/21/21, I expect Pres Biden to --

-- reverse the troop withdrawal & repositioning from Germany, which will not have yet begun,
leaving our military presence in Germany @ status quo ante.

He may eventually bring our Germany based Stryker Brigade (w/families) home
& replace them with a rotating deployment of a US based Stryker Brigades.

-- return our force level in Afghanistan to 4,500, until peace negotiations & conditions dictate lower.

I was only 1/2 right.
I did not pitch a fit when Trump blustered about withdrawal because I did not think that either Trump or Biden would be so reckless as to execute an abrupt, total withdrawal. My military mind could not process such a craven, feckless political decision. Apparently much of the serving chain of command did not expect it either.

That’s because our current President is a decisive leader who has been a national leader on foreign affairs since most of the current generals were children.

Frankly, it’s difficult to imagine another president making this hard but politically difficult decision. He cared more for our troops than his political convenience.

Go figure ….

There are going to be many military families who will be grateful that their loved ones won’t have to serve as part of a permanent U.S. deployment in Afghanistan.

DocBarrister

This President is a stubborn, doddering, incompetent old fool who knows he won't have a 2nd term or live to see the results of his impetus decision, overruling his military & national security advisors. There are thousands of military members, veterans & families who feel betrayed & that their sacrifices were now made in vain, because of this cowardly decision.

Appalled how you can so directly personally criticize Joe Biden while you gave DOPUS Trump a complete pass for 4+ years on EVERYTHING. Can now say that the two of you DESERVE one another.

Pathetic.

No credibility…..Called it a few years ago.

[tech37]

When you say he "cannot run for office again", I assume you meant "should not be allowed" to do so, right? He definitely "can" unless he's convicted of a felony and in jail...(the GOP missed the chance to actually ban him from ever running again...all they needed to do was convict in the Senate...just 9 more GOP Senators' votes and he'd have been permanently banned).

Right. Meant to say "cannot be allowed to run for office again." And certainly should not as I stated months ago.

+1

Let me qualify ...

The sh!t show that inhabits the WH now must go too. The sooner the better.

[tech37]

Salty, my primary issue with your critique ( in addition to thinking you exaggerate) is that you had no such outrage at Trump’s timeline and commitment to it. Nope, different party, automatically bums and bad decisions.

Also, I posted this shortly after the election :

On 1/21/21, I expect Pres Biden to --

-- reverse the troop withdrawal & repositioning from Germany, which will not have yet begun,
leaving our military presence in Germany @ status quo ante.

He may eventually bring our Germany based Stryker Brigade (w/families) home
& replace them with a rotating deployment of a US based Stryker Brigades.

-- return our force level in Afghanistan to 4,500, until peace negotiations & conditions dictate lower.

I was only 1/2 right.
I did not pitch a fit when Trump blustered about withdrawal because I did not think that either Trump or Biden would be so reckless as to execute an abrupt, total withdrawal. My military mind could not process such a craven, feckless political decision. Apparently much of the serving chain of command did not expect it either.

That’s because our current President is a decisive leader who has been a national leader on foreign affairs since most of the current generals were children.

Frankly, it’s difficult to imagine another president making this hard but politically difficult decision. He cared more for our troops than his political convenience.

Go figure ….

There are going to be many military families who will be grateful that their loved ones won’t have to serve as part of a permanent U.S. deployment in Afghanistan.

DocBarrister

This President is a stubborn, doddering, incompetent old fool who knows he won't have a 2nd term or live to see the results of his impetus decision, overruling his military & national security advisors. There are thousands of military members, veterans & families who feel betrayed & that their sacrifices were now made in vain, because of this cowardly decision.

Appalled how you can so directly personally criticize Joe Biden while you gave DOPUS Trump a complete pass for 4+ years on EVERYTHING. Can now say that the two of you DESERVE one another.

Pathetic.

Lies. OS hardly gave Trump a "complete pass"... he did agree with/support some policies. Some of you dopes didn't even realize when OS out right criticized Trump. That's an honest/accurate difference from the lies your trying to tell here.

[MDlaxfan76]

Salty, my primary issue with your critique ( in addition to thinking you exaggerate) is that you had no such outrage at Trump’s timeline and commitment to it. Nope, different party, automatically bums and bad decisions.

Also, I posted this shortly after the election :

On 1/21/21, I expect Pres Biden to --

-- reverse the troop withdrawal & repositioning from Germany, which will not have yet begun,
leaving our military presence in Germany @ status quo ante.

He may eventually bring our Germany based Stryker Brigade (w/families) home
& replace them with a rotating deployment of a US based Stryker Brigades.

-- return our force level in Afghanistan to 4,500, until peace negotiations & conditions dictate lower.

I was only 1/2 right.
I did not pitch a fit when Trump blustered about withdrawal because I did not think that either Trump or Biden would be so reckless as to execute an abrupt, total withdrawal. My military mind could not process such a craven, feckless political decision. Apparently much of the serving chain of command did not expect it either.

Uh huh, I agree, that's a pretty pathetic excuse...Trump wouldn't' have kept his word.

No, you held your fire at Trump because he was your guy. You flew air cover at every turn. And you weren't going to rip him for a "craven, feckless political decision" that you claim you found stupid, but only now that Biden is executing on Trump's commitment to leave.

I'm consistent; I didn't like Trump's decision and commitment, and I think Biden should have found some way to modify it more than he did. But it was an awful hand he was dealt, so I'm not going to rip Biden more than I was willing to rip Trump.

Here's what I hope, that you and I are both wrong, that the Taliban are not as brutally bad as we expect and that the region stabilizes from here, with Afghanistan less of a breeding ground and safe haven for terrorists than it once was. But ugh, it sure doesn't feel like that's likely.

I held my fire at Trump because it did not matter unless he was reelected, which I did not expect to happen. I was not alarmed because he had not ordered a further reduction. I was pleased that things were still going well with 2500 troops, our NATO allies were standing firm, the Afghan Air Force was getting more aircraft & flying more missions & we were not taking casualties. At that point, I considered the mission an ongoing success. I was focused on other issues & not worried about Afghanistan unless Trump was reelected & started doing something about it.

The decision point was not at hand. Trump would not be able to execute it unless reelected. There was very little media coverage of the withdrawal issue, very little coverage of Afghanistan at all. You may recall that Biden was non-committal about our ongoing presence in Iraq, Syria or Afghanistan.

You & Biden are hiding behind a sham excuse to deny his accountability, just like Obama & Biden used the lack of a SOFA to rationalize our abandonment of Iraq.

I don't recall your strenuous objection to Trump's Feb 2020 withdrawal agreement before the election. If I missed those posts, please repost them & I will reconsider them. We were all more focused on Iran/Iraq/Syria/Saudi Arabia. Things were quiet in Afghanistan, It was an afterthought.

You can do your own search of my posts. I was clear.
Others argued the other way, as they do now.
There was plenty of room for you to step up and make your view known...heck you've done so on any other foreign affairs topic discussed! And this was an obvious looming issue, given Trump's cut and run attitude and then formal commitment.

But no one is buying that you didn't critique Trump and the commitment because you thought he wouldn't win...you were still rooting for him to win and you didn't want to critique your guy. Maybe you were secretly critical, maybe not...we'll just need to take your word for it that you were but just didn't say so.

We get it, Salty.
Anyone but the Dems they actually choose as their standard bearers.
God forbid the Dems win...MAGA.

But this one leaves you in a position where you are again rather hypocritically aligned with Trump in critiquing a decision Trump himself had already committed to doing, even faster.

[MDlaxfan76]

When you say he "cannot run for office again", I assume you meant "should not be allowed" to do so, right? He definitely "can" unless he's convicted of a felony and in jail...(the GOP missed the chance to actually ban him from ever running again...all they needed to do was convict in the Senate...just 9 more GOP Senators' votes and he'd have been permanently banned).

Right. Meant to say "cannot be allowed to run for office again." And certainly should not as I stated months ago.

+1

Let me qualify ...

The sh!t show that inhabits the WH now must go too. The sooner the better.

uhh huh, exactly what bothers you about these folks, tech?
I was a manhole cover over Trump and his rats, but I don't feel the same way about Biden.
I'll critique where I see him in error, but I'm not going to buy into the dishonest efforts to exaggerate or smear.

Problem for the GOP for voters like me is that they've poisoned the well so badly in their fealty to Trump that they're going to need to come up with someone entirely clean of that stink before I'll even consider them again. Having never previously voted for a Dem for POTUS !

[MDlaxfan76]

Salty, my primary issue with your critique ( in addition to thinking you exaggerate) is that you had no such outrage at Trump’s timeline and commitment to it. Nope, different party, automatically bums and bad decisions.

Also, I posted this shortly after the election :

On 1/21/21, I expect Pres Biden to --

-- reverse the troop withdrawal & repositioning from Germany, which will not have yet begun,
leaving our military presence in Germany @ status quo ante.

He may eventually bring our Germany based Stryker Brigade (w/families) home
& replace them with a rotating deployment of a US based Stryker Brigades.

-- return our force level in Afghanistan to 4,500, until peace negotiations & conditions dictate lower.

I was only 1/2 right.
I did not pitch a fit when Trump blustered about withdrawal because I did not think that either Trump or Biden would be so reckless as to execute an abrupt, total withdrawal. My military mind could not process such a craven, feckless political decision. Apparently much of the serving chain of command did not expect it either.

That’s because our current President is a decisive leader who has been a national leader on foreign affairs since most of the current generals were children.

Frankly, it’s difficult to imagine another president making this hard but politically difficult decision. He cared more for our troops than his political convenience.

Go figure ….

There are going to be many military families who will be grateful that their loved ones won’t have to serve as part of a permanent U.S. deployment in Afghanistan.

DocBarrister

This President is a stubborn, doddering, incompetent old fool who knows he won't have a 2nd term or live to see the results of his impetus decision, overruling his military & national security advisors. There are thousands of military members, veterans & families who feel betrayed & that their sacrifices were now made in vain, because of this cowardly decision.

Appalled how you can so directly personally criticize Joe Biden while you gave DOPUS Trump a complete pass for 4+ years on EVERYTHING. Can now say that the two of you DESERVE one another.

Pathetic.

Lies. OS hardly gave Trump a "complete pass"... he did agree with/support some policies. Some of you dopes didn't even realize when OS out right criticized Trump. That's an honest/accurate difference from the lies your trying to tell here.

Nope, when OS came even close to critiquing Trump, he flew air cover for him instead. Never was able to say the guy was completely unqualified and indeed disqualified for the job, was a dishonest moron with a gigantuan ego who was flat dangerous. He's also flown air cover for the Insurrection and its proponents.

Big difference from supporting some of his policies.
Which did he not, strenuously? None.

[RedFromMI]

A great discussion on my Twitter feed this morning:

(From Mike Mazarr, Rand Corporation)

One argument of critics is that, as Bret Stephens claims, the US had a cozy minimal presence which "Any American president could have maintained ... almost indefinitely — with no prospect of defeating the Taliban but none of being routed by them, either"

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/15/opin ... ticleShare

"In other words," Stephens adds, "we had achieved a good-enough solution for a nation we could afford to neither save nor lose. We squandered it anyway." This is far too simplistic, a dangerous and misleading straw man. Many problems with this vision of a Permanent Minimal War:

1. There is no end to the effort in this scheme. None. If we agree that governance + other key indicators were stuck or in reverse, this clever stratagem ties the US to a truly forever war. What major democracy has ever maintained such a role (in *active* combat) for 3+ decades

2. Even w/small force levels there are economic costs. Proposed 2021 spending was $14B assuming big drawdown; if violence fluctuated, we could easily have seen spikes. So, with potent domestic needs, we spend $20B+ a year on an endless war?

https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoin ... -a-decade/

3. The "stay forever" plan assumes the Taliban would have tolerated such a stalemate forever. They would not. The last few days suggest they had major untapped political + military power. If they sensed the US was digging in to stay, they would escalate, not abandon their cause

4. Indeed, the best guess is probably that there was never a stalemate to preserve. Mapping Taliban control is tough, but lots of indicators showed gradual rise in power. Last days indicate that they were accumulating more influence than we thought

https://www.lawfareblog.com/challenges- ... fghanistan

And so, the US would not have had a calm perpetual position but rather more likely confront a series of "2009 moments": Trends look bad, we can surge or watch it fall apart. That's not a sustainable long-term strategic position to be in. Biden did future presidents a huge favor

5. Staying forever makes the US complicit in maintaining a permanent state of war in another nation. However bad Taliban rule may be, the costs of war must weigh as well: 240K deaths since 2001 including 70K civilians. Thousands still dying in 2020-2021

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-57967960

6. Finally, other risks in withdrawal--to the US homeland, to Pakistan, to US reputation, of refugee flows--exist at least to the same degree in an ongoing war. Spikes in violence, spreading fighting + eventual Taliban desperation could have produced all manner of perils

Stephens says we've stayed in Korea for 71 years, so why not Afghanistan? Well, how about this: *Because there is not an active conflict underway in Korea,* and we are not targeted by an insurgency.

He admits that "the Afghan gov't [is] corrupt and inept" but at least it isn't "massacring its own citizens or raising the banner of jihad." That isn't the point. If your partner can't govern effectively, you can't simply dig in: Eventually, your position will become untenable

He says departing a war without victory amounts to "squandering the sacrifice of so many Americans who fought the Taliban bravely and nobly." As opposed to staying in a war you know you cannot win, and demanding that till more sacrifice for a callous strategic gambit?

Finally, the moralistic crescendo: "Our inability to help everyone, everywhere doesn’t relieve us of the obligation to help someone, somewhere," and "America’s power and reputation" rely on "being a beacon of confidence and hope." Good argument for foreign aid, not for making war

Bottom line: There simply is no magical, "leave the minimum force to tamp down the Taliban and look the other way" option for Afghanistan. It doesn't exist. You can't halfway fight a war--not in general, and surely not for a whole generation

It's ironic that this idea is appearing alongside moralistic repudiations of the administration. The Permanent Minimal War option is nothing more than institutionalized avoidance of responsibility, a callous dance around the real decision, dressed up to look like clever strategy

[tech37]

Salty, my primary issue with your critique ( in addition to thinking you exaggerate) is that you had no such outrage at Trump’s timeline and commitment to it. Nope, different party, automatically bums and bad decisions.

Also, I posted this shortly after the election :

On 1/21/21, I expect Pres Biden to --

-- reverse the troop withdrawal & repositioning from Germany, which will not have yet begun,
leaving our military presence in Germany @ status quo ante.

He may eventually bring our Germany based Stryker Brigade (w/families) home
& replace them with a rotating deployment of a US based Stryker Brigades.

-- return our force level in Afghanistan to 4,500, until peace negotiations & conditions dictate lower.

I was only 1/2 right.
I did not pitch a fit when Trump blustered about withdrawal because I did not think that either Trump or Biden would be so reckless as to execute an abrupt, total withdrawal. My military mind could not process such a craven, feckless political decision. Apparently much of the serving chain of command did not expect it either.

That’s because our current President is a decisive leader who has been a national leader on foreign affairs since most of the current generals were children.

Frankly, it’s difficult to imagine another president making this hard but politically difficult decision. He cared more for our troops than his political convenience.

Go figure ….

There are going to be many military families who will be grateful that their loved ones won’t have to serve as part of a permanent U.S. deployment in Afghanistan.

DocBarrister

This President is a stubborn, doddering, incompetent old fool who knows he won't have a 2nd term or live to see the results of his impetus decision, overruling his military & national security advisors. There are thousands of military members, veterans & families who feel betrayed & that their sacrifices were now made in vain, because of this cowardly decision.

Appalled how you can so directly personally criticize Joe Biden while you gave DOPUS Trump a complete pass for 4+ years on EVERYTHING. Can now say that the two of you DESERVE one another.

Pathetic.

Lies. OS hardly gave Trump a "complete pass"... he did agree with/support some policies. Some of you dopes didn't even realize when OS out right criticized Trump. That's an honest/accurate difference from the lies your trying to tell here.

Nope, when OS came even close to critiquing Trump, he flew air cover for him instead. Never was able to say the guy was completely unqualified and indeed disqualified for the job, was a dishonest moron with a gigantuan ego who was flat dangerous. He's also flown air cover for the Insurrection and its proponents.

Big difference from supporting some of his policies.
Which did he not, strenuously? None.

Amazing. You continue to confuse someone/anyone who pushed back on the Resistance hate and tactics, as someone who supported Trump. No regard/understanding for nuance. Simplistic, narrow thinking.

[youthathletics]

Salty, my primary issue with your critique ( in addition to thinking you exaggerate) is that you had no such outrage at Trump’s timeline and commitment to it. Nope, different party, automatically bums and bad decisions.

Also, I posted this shortly after the election :

On 1/21/21, I expect Pres Biden to --

-- reverse the troop withdrawal & repositioning from Germany, which will not have yet begun,
leaving our military presence in Germany @ status quo ante.

He may eventually bring our Germany based Stryker Brigade (w/families) home
& replace them with a rotating deployment of a US based Stryker Brigades.

-- return our force level in Afghanistan to 4,500, until peace negotiations & conditions dictate lower.

I was only 1/2 right.
I did not pitch a fit when Trump blustered about withdrawal because I did not think that either Trump or Biden would be so reckless as to execute an abrupt, total withdrawal. My military mind could not process such a craven, feckless political decision. Apparently much of the serving chain of command did not expect it either.

That’s because our current President is a decisive leader who has been a national leader on foreign affairs since most of the current generals were children.

Frankly, it’s difficult to imagine another president making this hard but politically difficult decision. He cared more for our troops than his political convenience.

Go figure ….

There are going to be many military families who will be grateful that their loved ones won’t have to serve as part of a permanent U.S. deployment in Afghanistan.

DocBarrister

This President is a stubborn, doddering, incompetent old fool who knows he won't have a 2nd term or live to see the results of his impetus decision, overruling his military & national security advisors. There are thousands of military members, veterans & families who feel betrayed & that their sacrifices were now made in vain, because of this cowardly decision.

Appalled how you can so directly personally criticize Joe Biden while you gave DOPUS Trump a complete pass for 4+ years on EVERYTHING. Can now say that the two of you DESERVE one another.

Pathetic.

Lies. OS hardly gave Trump a "complete pass"... he did agree with/support some policies. Some of you dopes didn't even realize when OS out right criticized Trump. That's an honest/accurate difference from the lies your trying to tell here.

Nope, when OS came even close to critiquing Trump, he flew air cover for him instead. Never was able to say the guy was completely unqualified and indeed disqualified for the job, was a dishonest moron with a gigantuan ego who was flat dangerous. He's also flown air cover for the Insurrection and its proponents.

Big difference from supporting some of his policies.
Which did he not, strenuously? None.

Amazing. You continue to confuse someone/anyone who pushed back on the Resistance hate and tactics, as someone who supported Trump. No regard/understanding for nuance. Simplistic, narrow thinking.

Agree completely. As MD likes to say... 'he can walk and chew gum', but must not believe others are capable.

[old salt]

Salty, my primary issue with your critique ( in addition to thinking you exaggerate) is that you had no such outrage at Trump’s timeline and commitment to it. Nope, different party, automatically bums and bad decisions.

Also, I posted this shortly after the election :

On 1/21/21, I expect Pres Biden to --

-- reverse the troop withdrawal & repositioning from Germany, which will not have yet begun,
leaving our military presence in Germany @ status quo ante.

He may eventually bring our Germany based Stryker Brigade (w/families) home
& replace them with a rotating deployment of a US based Stryker Brigades.

-- return our force level in Afghanistan to 4,500, until peace negotiations & conditions dictate lower.

I was only 1/2 right.
I did not pitch a fit when Trump blustered about withdrawal because I did not think that either Trump or Biden would be so reckless as to execute an abrupt, total withdrawal. My military mind could not process such a craven, feckless political decision. Apparently much of the serving chain of command did not expect it either.

Uh huh, I agree, that's a pretty pathetic excuse...Trump wouldn't' have kept his word.

No, you held your fire at Trump because he was your guy. You flew air cover at every turn. And you weren't going to rip him for a "craven, feckless political decision" that you claim you found stupid, but only now that Biden is executing on Trump's commitment to leave.

I'm consistent; I didn't like Trump's decision and commitment, and I think Biden should have found some way to modify it more than he did. But it was an awful hand he was dealt, so I'm not going to rip Biden more than I was willing to rip Trump.

Here's what I hope, that you and I are both wrong, that the Taliban are not as brutally bad as we expect and that the region stabilizes from here, with Afghanistan less of a breeding ground and safe haven for terrorists than it once was. But ugh, it sure doesn't feel like that's likely.

I held my fire at Trump because it did not matter unless he was reelected, which I did not expect to happen. I was not alarmed because he had not ordered a further reduction. I was pleased that things were still going well with 2500 troops, our NATO allies were standing firm, the Afghan Air Force was getting more aircraft & flying more missions & we were not taking casualties. At that point, I considered the mission an ongoing success. I was focused on other issues & not worried about Afghanistan unless Trump was reelected & started doing something about it.

The decision point was not at hand. Trump would not be able to execute it unless reelected. There was very little media coverage of the withdrawal issue, very little coverage of Afghanistan at all. You may recall that Biden was non-committal about our ongoing presence in Iraq, Syria or Afghanistan.

You & Biden are hiding behind a sham excuse to deny his accountability, just like Obama & Biden used the lack of a SOFA to rationalize our abandonment of Iraq.

I don't recall your strenuous objection to Trump's Feb 2020 withdrawal agreement before the election. If I missed those posts, please repost them & I will reconsider them. We were all more focused on Iran/Iraq/Syria/Saudi Arabia. Things were quiet in Afghanistan, It was an afterthought.

You can do your own search of my posts. I was clear.
Others argued the other way, as they do now.
There was plenty of room for you to step up and make your view known...heck you've done so on any other foreign affairs topic discussed! And this was an obvious looming issue, given Trump's cut and run attitude and then formal commitment.

But no one is buying that you didn't critique Trump and the commitment because you thought he wouldn't win...you were still rooting for him to win and you didn't want to critique your guy. Maybe you were secretly critical, maybe not...we'll just need to take your word for it that you were but just didn't say so.

We get it, Salty.
Anyone but the Dems they actually choose as their standard bearers.
God forbid the Dems win...MAGA.

But this one leaves you in a position where you are again rather hypocritically aligned with Trump in critiquing a decision Trump himself had already committed to doing, even faster.

There you go again, telling me what I think or thought, with nothing to back it up. You demand that I hysterically criticize one provision, in an ongoing negotiation, that would require Trump's re-election to be implemented, or assume I supported Trump's decision to pullout.

While I pointed out how our deployment might be continued, I do not categorically disapprove of withdrawal, either by Trump or Biden, if it's an orderly exit that does betray our allies & ignore the recommendations of his military advisers. Trump's withdrawal was no more binding after his term than his approval of Keystone XL, his order to draw down troops in Germany, our withdrawal from JCPOA & the Paris Accords. Biden had no hesitation in reversing those agreements.

You sir, are a McCarthyite, making accusations about my positions, with nothing to back them up, other than your unfounded accusations.
You conveniently forget my critique of Trump's abrupt decision to withdraw our troops from Syria, prompting Mattis to resign. Fortunately, Esper, Milley (& Keane, coaching from behind the scenes) convinced him to backtrack, as I expected them to do on the Afghan withdrawal decision, if it could not be done safely for our allies.

Again, show us what you had to say about the decision to withdraw from Afghanistan, before your recent agreement with me.

[MDlaxfan76]

Salty, my primary issue with your critique ( in addition to thinking you exaggerate) is that you had no such outrage at Trump’s timeline and commitment to it. Nope, different party, automatically bums and bad decisions.

Also, I posted this shortly after the election :

On 1/21/21, I expect Pres Biden to --

-- reverse the troop withdrawal & repositioning from Germany, which will not have yet begun,
leaving our military presence in Germany @ status quo ante.

He may eventually bring our Germany based Stryker Brigade (w/families) home
& replace them with a rotating deployment of a US based Stryker Brigades.

-- return our force level in Afghanistan to 4,500, until peace negotiations & conditions dictate lower.

I was only 1/2 right.
I did not pitch a fit when Trump blustered about withdrawal because I did not think that either Trump or Biden would be so reckless as to execute an abrupt, total withdrawal. My military mind could not process such a craven, feckless political decision. Apparently much of the serving chain of command did not expect it either.

That’s because our current President is a decisive leader who has been a national leader on foreign affairs since most of the current generals were children.

Frankly, it’s difficult to imagine another president making this hard but politically difficult decision. He cared more for our troops than his political convenience.

Go figure ….

There are going to be many military families who will be grateful that their loved ones won’t have to serve as part of a permanent U.S. deployment in Afghanistan.

DocBarrister

This President is a stubborn, doddering, incompetent old fool who knows he won't have a 2nd term or live to see the results of his impetus decision, overruling his military & national security advisors. There are thousands of military members, veterans & families who feel betrayed & that their sacrifices were now made in vain, because of this cowardly decision.

Appalled how you can so directly personally criticize Joe Biden while you gave DOPUS Trump a complete pass for 4+ years on EVERYTHING. Can now say that the two of you DESERVE one another.

Pathetic.

Lies. OS hardly gave Trump a "complete pass"... he did agree with/support some policies. Some of you dopes didn't even realize when OS out right criticized Trump. That's an honest/accurate difference from the lies your trying to tell here.

Nope, when OS came even close to critiquing Trump, he flew air cover for him instead. Never was able to say the guy was completely unqualified and indeed disqualified for the job, was a dishonest moron with a gigantuan ego who was flat dangerous. He's also flown air cover for the Insurrection and its proponents.

Big difference from supporting some of his policies.
Which did he not, strenuously? None.

Amazing. You continue to confuse someone/anyone who pushed back on the Resistance hate and tactics, as someone who supported Trump. No regard/understanding for nuance. Simplistic, narrow thinking.

Agree completely. As MD likes to say... 'he can walk and chew gum', but must not believe others are capable.

Again, not buying it.
Putting aside Salty in specific, "walk and chew gum" are two separate and distinguishable actions, done at the same time without conflict with one another.

Want to support a Trump policy? Fine. Say why.
Want to criticize an opponent of Trump? Fine. Say why.
Both are "walking" in this analogy.

But if you can't clearly criticize Trump and his supporters, ie "chew gum" and instead swallow it and your tongue, then you ain't doing two distinct things in parallel.

I do understand that supporting some of the policies of Trump and the GOP, and disdaining policies offered by Dems is not the same thing as being an all-in Trumpist QAnon nut.

But if you can't be really, really clear that Trump is a dishonest, egotistical, autocratic POS, which we knew darn well (or should have- I do give a small pass to those who imagined something different early on) going into 2016 and was thoroughly revealed throughout his tenure and thereafter, well, you just have no credibility when you critique the Dems.

[dislaxxic]

Swampy's "criticism" of Trump, as incredibly limited as it was, consisted of saying words to the effect of "his time will pass, i just want him to do well for the country and we'll be fine once he goes...don't get your panties in a knot over him"...

This statement:

This President is a stubborn, doddering, incompetent old fool who knows he won't have a 2nd term or live to see the results of his impetus decision, overruling his military & national security advisors. There are thousands of military members, veterans & families who feel betrayed & that their sacrifices were now made in vain, because of this cowardly decision.

...tells you all you need to know about this dynamic...OS is a dyed in the wool Trumpist, like tech and youth and others who tie themselves up in knots trying sleep at night by self-deluding themselves into thinking they are somehow "critical" of Donald Trump and his myriad depredations while espousing unending, nonsensical insults about Biden and his administration. Stunning, but doesn't surprise any of us paying attention.

..

[old salt]

Salty, my primary issue with your critique ( in addition to thinking you exaggerate) is that you had no such outrage at Trump’s timeline and commitment to it. Nope, different party, automatically bums and bad decisions.

Also, I posted this shortly after the election :

On 1/21/21, I expect Pres Biden to --

-- reverse the troop withdrawal & repositioning from Germany, which will not have yet begun,
leaving our military presence in Germany @ status quo ante.

He may eventually bring our Germany based Stryker Brigade (w/families) home
& replace them with a rotating deployment of a US based Stryker Brigades.

-- return our force level in Afghanistan to 4,500, until peace negotiations & conditions dictate lower.

I was only 1/2 right.
I did not pitch a fit when Trump blustered about withdrawal because I did not think that either Trump or Biden would be so reckless as to execute an abrupt, total withdrawal. My military mind could not process such a craven, feckless political decision. Apparently much of the serving chain of command did not expect it either.

That’s because our current President is a decisive leader who has been a national leader on foreign affairs since most of the current generals were children.

Frankly, it’s difficult to imagine another president making this hard but politically difficult decision. He cared more for our troops than his political convenience.

Go figure ….

There are going to be many military families who will be grateful that their loved ones won’t have to serve as part of a permanent U.S. deployment in Afghanistan.

DocBarrister

This President is a stubborn, doddering, incompetent old fool who knows he won't have a 2nd term or live to see the results of his impetus decision, overruling his military & national security advisors. There are thousands of military members, veterans & families who feel betrayed & that their sacrifices were now made in vain, because of this cowardly decision.

Appalled how you can so directly personally criticize Joe Biden while you gave DOPUS Trump a complete pass for 4+ years on EVERYTHING. Can now say that the two of you DESERVE one another.

Pathetic.

Almost as pathetic as the draft dodger who called Bush a draft dodger because all he did was pilot F-102 supersonic fighter planes.

[youthathletics]

Swampy's "criticism" of Trump, as incredibly limited as it was, consisted of saying words to the effect of "his time will pass, i just want him to do well for the country and we'll be fine once he goes...don't get your panties in a knot over him"...

This statement:

This President is a stubborn, doddering, incompetent old fool who knows he won't have a 2nd term or live to see the results of his impetus decision, overruling his military & national security advisors. There are thousands of military members, veterans & families who feel betrayed & that their sacrifices were now made in vain, because of this cowardly decision.

...tells you all you need to know about this dynamic...OS is a dyed in the wool Trumpist, like tech and youth and others who tie themselves up in knots trying sleep at night by self-deluding themselves into thinking they are somehow "critical" of Donald Trump and his myriad depredations while espousing unending, nonsensical insults about Biden and his administration. Stunning, but doesn't surprise any of us paying attention.

..

You are intentionally conflating two, completely, separate, issues. Your embarrassing attempt to shove this in a single politically sided box speaks volumes about your tunnel vision. Hell, even MSNBC and CNN agree Biden effed up...you? all that matters is a scoreboard.

[old salt]

Salty, my primary issue with your critique ( in addition to thinking you exaggerate) is that you had no such outrage at Trump’s timeline and commitment to it. Nope, different party, automatically bums and bad decisions.

Also, I posted this shortly after the election :

On 1/21/21, I expect Pres Biden to --

-- reverse the troop withdrawal & repositioning from Germany, which will not have yet begun,
leaving our military presence in Germany @ status quo ante.

He may eventually bring our Germany based Stryker Brigade (w/families) home
& replace them with a rotating deployment of a US based Stryker Brigades.

-- return our force level in Afghanistan to 4,500, until peace negotiations & conditions dictate lower.

I was only 1/2 right.
I did not pitch a fit when Trump blustered about withdrawal because I did not think that either Trump or Biden would be so reckless as to execute an abrupt, total withdrawal. My military mind could not process such a craven, feckless political decision. Apparently much of the serving chain of command did not expect it either.

That’s because our current President is a decisive leader who has been a national leader on foreign affairs since most of the current generals were children.

Frankly, it’s difficult to imagine another president making this hard but politically difficult decision. He cared more for our troops than his political convenience.

Go figure ….

There are going to be many military families who will be grateful that their loved ones won’t have to serve as part of a permanent U.S. deployment in Afghanistan.

DocBarrister

This President is a stubborn, doddering, incompetent old fool who knows he won't have a 2nd term or live to see the results of his impetus decision, overruling his military & national security advisors. There are thousands of military members, veterans & families who feel betrayed & that their sacrifices were now made in vain, because of this cowardly decision.

Appalled how you can so directly personally criticize Joe Biden while you gave DOPUS Trump a complete pass for 4+ years on EVERYTHING. Can now say that the two of you DESERVE one another.

Pathetic.

Lies. OS hardly gave Trump a "complete pass"... he did agree with/support some policies. Some of you dopes didn't even realize when OS out right criticized Trump. That's an honest/accurate difference from the lies your trying to tell here.

Nope, when OS came even close to critiquing Trump, he flew air cover for him instead. Never was able to say the guy was completely unqualified and indeed disqualified for the job, was a dishonest moron with a gigantuan ego who was flat dangerous. He's also flown air cover for the Insurrection and its proponents.

Big difference from supporting some of his policies.
Which did he not, strenuously? None.

That's just BS. Again, I refer you to my objections to the Syrian & German troop withdrawal decisions, which are the same issue, different countries. In Syria, Trump let cooler heads change his mind. In Germany, like Afghanistan, it was distant enough that it came after the election, leaving time to backtrack, as Biden did, & could have done a second time in Afghanistan.

[MDlaxfan76]

Salty, my primary issue with your critique ( in addition to thinking you exaggerate) is that you had no such outrage at Trump’s timeline and commitment to it. Nope, different party, automatically bums and bad decisions.

Also, I posted this shortly after the election :

On 1/21/21, I expect Pres Biden to --

-- reverse the troop withdrawal & repositioning from Germany, which will not have yet begun,
leaving our military presence in Germany @ status quo ante.

He may eventually bring our Germany based Stryker Brigade (w/families) home
& replace them with a rotating deployment of a US based Stryker Brigades.

-- return our force level in Afghanistan to 4,500, until peace negotiations & conditions dictate lower.

I was only 1/2 right.
I did not pitch a fit when Trump blustered about withdrawal because I did not think that either Trump or Biden would be so reckless as to execute an abrupt, total withdrawal. My military mind could not process such a craven, feckless political decision. Apparently much of the serving chain of command did not expect it either.

That’s because our current President is a decisive leader who has been a national leader on foreign affairs since most of the current generals were children.

Frankly, it’s difficult to imagine another president making this hard but politically difficult decision. He cared more for our troops than his political convenience.

Go figure ….

There are going to be many military families who will be grateful that their loved ones won’t have to serve as part of a permanent U.S. deployment in Afghanistan.

DocBarrister

This President is a stubborn, doddering, incompetent old fool who knows he won't have a 2nd term or live to see the results of his impetus decision, overruling his military & national security advisors. There are thousands of military members, veterans & families who feel betrayed & that their sacrifices were now made in vain, because of this cowardly decision.

Appalled how you can so directly personally criticize Joe Biden while you gave DOPUS Trump a complete pass for 4+ years on EVERYTHING. Can now say that the two of you DESERVE one another.

Pathetic.

Lies. OS hardly gave Trump a "complete pass"... he did agree with/support some policies. Some of you dopes didn't even realize when OS out right criticized Trump. That's an honest/accurate difference from the lies your trying to tell here.

Nope, when OS came even close to critiquing Trump, he flew air cover for him instead. Never was able to say the guy was completely unqualified and indeed disqualified for the job, was a dishonest moron with a gigantuan ego who was flat dangerous. He's also flown air cover for the Insurrection and its proponents.

Big difference from supporting some of his policies.
Which did he not, strenuously? None.

That's just BS. Again, I refer you to my objections to the Syrian & German troop withdrawal decisions, which are the same issue, different countries. In Syria, Trump let cooler heads change his mind. In Germany, like Afghanistan, it was distant enough that it came after the election, leaving time to backtrack, as Biden did, & could have done a second time in Afghanistan.

I recall the Syria issue, which led to Mattis' resignation. You did object. You stayed silent on Afghanistan.

There are 58 pages of discussion when I do a search for Afghanistan, Trump and my name...here are a couple of the early flags:
Re: Orange Duce
• Edit
• Report
• Quote
Post by MDlaxfan76 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:04 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote:
youthathletics wrote:
Typical Lax Dad wrote:
youthathletics wrote:
Typical Lax Dad wrote:
youthathletics wrote:A counterpoint...https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/pol ... as-a-point

Instead of a knee jerk over reaction, we have all agreed at some point over the years that our military is changing. Boots on the ground in hostile territory is not always a nesessity. We saw the reaction and over-reaction by both sides when we had precision air strikes on Syria. This was expected and it’s also no surprise Mattis was against it. I get it, we were training locals to fight and “fend off ISIS”, calculated air strikes and intel from the Kurds can still be used or strategic SpOps missions.

By know means am I picking a side and I am clearly not as educated as those in the position to make these type of decisions. I just feel like we have heard over and over again, from many on here, that the ME has been a dump hole since before Christ and now all of a sudden those same people want to kick him in the balls for getting our people out of there.
I am all for removing troops. Get them all out of the Middle East and then cut government spending. Shrink the military. Let those countries all fend for themselves. Use the money to build a wall....Let these folks have their caliphate if they so desire. Who are we to deny it?
You could argue that is precisely what he is doing. Only difference, he funded the military upfront, for the sustainable future. Being certain the military / we are in a great position.
Cut it down. If we are not in the Middle East, we don't need to spend as much. Redeploy that peace dividend. We have been spending $32 million an hour on wars since 2001. $32 million an hour. Cut the spending and reduce the waste. Reinvest that money to support AI and green energy. We should want to dominate those emerging industries..... instead we are bringing back coal and black lung....morons
Nice to see you all finally agree with something Trump is doing. And he is doing it AFTER he funded the military / DoD...now maybe people will understand why he first funded them so heavily. Putting them in a position to be accountable for their spending and forcing their hand into re-thinking strategies on how and where to spend/deploy. Trump gave them a huge Christmas present when he funded them, praises them left and right, and is working to continue VA advancements that Obama started.
Before, after, I don't care. I didn't think we should have been there in 2001. We waste too much money. Cut spending.
We don't all agree. I disagree re Syria and Afghanistan.

Youth, you are 100% out to lunch if you think Trump has done anything with keeping anyone accountable as his purpose.
He has no coherent strategy (other than his personal interest), just daily gut reactions and impulses.
All to gain applause or create distraction, in that moment.

youthathletics wrote:
MDLAX wrote:We don't all agree. I disagree re Syria and Afghanistan.

Youth, you are 100% out to lunch if you think Trump has done anything with keeping anyone accountable as his purpose.
Re-read it...Putting them in a position to be accountable for their spending and forcing their hand into re-thinking strategies on how and where to spend/deploy. Trump is putting the onus on them (the military leaders). He gave them a pocket full of cash, pulls troops out of a country that is a dump hole, saves us and the military money, THEN makes them THE MILITARY accountable for their spending of the money he filled their pockets with.

He has no coherent strategy (other than his personal interest), just daily gut reactions and impulses. GMAFB - all these items were on his campaign and 4 year list.
He had arguably one the best military leaders guiding him for 2 years, connections with other military leaders to counter Mattis' ideas in order to make a decision, he weighed the options and made a choice.
youth,
I'm not sure who you think he has had as other military advisors who might suggest something different than Mattis. He blew up the McMaster counsel pretty fast, but of course that was aligned with Mattis.

I can't think of who you might imagine he talks to whose opinions might carry more weight than Mattis', who not only had the experience, he was read into all the actual facts at present. Do you have any idea who these other "military leaders" might be? Nah, you don't, because there isn't anyone.

Instead, Trump appears to have rather frequently followed his own counsel "I know better than the generals". Not someone who actually has a clue.

And frequently that 'counsel' was in opposition to what Mattis advised. Mattis soldiered on, but obviously this had been building for quite a while.

Seems to me that what pushed Mattis finally over the edge was the abandoning of the Kurds and other Syrian forces who have risked so much based on the promises made by the USA, including every day over the last 2 years. These folks have bled and died and sacrificed to destroy ISIS. And we're going to leave them to slaughter.

Try getting anyone ever to stand with the USA, depend on an alliance with the USA.


Post by MDlaxfan76 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:40 pm
old salt wrote:
old salt wrote:
a fan wrote:Knock me over with a feather. Trump is explaining the stupidity of American forces in Syria and Afghanistan better than any lefty I've ever heard. Cabinet meeting on CNBC.

Bravo!!! Old Salt, did you catch this?
It's cached in my dvr (I think). I'll watch & give my thoughts.
The Rodney Dangerfield Doctrine. . .

...that's an appeal to the latent strain of American isolationism I keep referring to.
Yes, it's indeed as ignorant of the lessons of prior isolationism as can be imagined. The latent strain does exist, it just hasn't been a significant strain or a "mainstream" philosophy since 1941.

I do take a bit of exception to the notion that Trump is espousing actually a 'lefty' philosophy. I think the 'lefty' peaceniks of past and present actually had/have a moral basis for their notions. Those deserve respect, and IMO, are a worthy counterbalance to aggressive hawk philosophies.

But Trump's all about the almighty $, preferably his own. Totally and willfully ignorant of history, he believes everything is a transaction between 'strong men' and to the winner go the spoils. Nothing is strategic and allies and promises and truth be damned.

I found his ramblings on these topics today quite disgusting.
The Kurds "fight better when we're there" and have sold oil to Iran, so we should abandon them??

Does he even know why we went into Afghanistan in the first place? Or does he think he was opposed to that decision too, just like he made up having been opposed to going into Iraq?

"Russia should be there, India should be there, Pakistan should be there, why should we there, we're 6,000 miles away" and "so what if some of ISIS gets to the the US"...yikes.

Even if we look at the ME as an area we should be much less militarily engaged with (and economically dependent upon) in the future (and should have been more careful in the past), we shouldn't be confused about what Trump's motivations and decision process are all about: $$$, his $$$.

[old salt]

Swampy's "criticism" of Trump, as incredibly limited as it was, consisted of saying words to the effect of "his time will pass, i just want him to do well for the country and we'll be fine once he goes...don't get your panties in a knot over him"...

This statement:

This President is a stubborn, doddering, incompetent old fool who knows he won't have a 2nd term or live to see the results of his impetus decision, overruling his military & national security advisors. There are thousands of military members, veterans & families who feel betrayed & that their sacrifices were now made in vain, because of this cowardly decision.

...tells you all you need to know about this dynamic...OS is a dyed in the wool Trumpist, like tech and youth and others who tie themselves up in knots trying sleep at night by self-deluding themselves into thinking they are somehow "critical" of Donald Trump and his myriad depredations while espousing unending, nonsensical insults about Biden and his administration. Stunning, but doesn't surprise any of us paying attention.

..

You are intentionally conflating two, completely, separate, issues. Your embarrassing attempt to shove this in a single politically sided box speaks volumes about your tunnel vision. Hell, even MSNBC and CNN agree Biden effed up...you? all that matters is a scoreboard.

There is no undoing what Biden has done in Afghanistan. Nothing Trump did will have as much long term negative impact, for so many people.
The TDS Zombies keep forgetting that Trump is no longer in office & has been de-platformed.
Given Biden's performance, I can see why the TDS Zombies are restless.

[old salt]

There are 58 pages of discussion when I do a search for Afghanistan, Trump and my name ...

...& none you quoted are after Feb 2020, which is when he announced the full withdrawal.

[Typical Lax Dad]

There are 58 pages of discussion when I do a search for Afghanistan, Trump and my name ...

...& none you quoted are after Feb 2020, which is when he announced the full withdrawal.

[dislaxxic]

There is no undoing what Biden has done in Afghanistan. Nothing Trump did will have as much long term negative impact, for so many people. The TDS Zombies keep forgetting that Trump is no longer in office & has been de-platformed.
Given Biden's performance, I can see why the TDS Zombies are restless.

Nice try but NO ONE is buying that tripe this side of MAGA Nation. This one from someone who went on for YEARS about how Benghazi was the worst foreign policy depredation in the history of mankind. lmao

By the way, nice job, that US military training and equipping of Afghan "forces" did for 20 years...

..